EP 1005: From Lawyers to Coaches Part Two

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Welcome back to Heals in the Courtroom. I’m Elizabeth McNulty, and I am joined again by Mary Simon, Mollie Farrell, and Kelli Dunaway. This is part two of our conversation with the co-founders of Aspire. If you haven’t listened to part one yet, we recommend starting there. And today we’re going to continue our discussion about how coaching can support women lawyers, not as a fixed, but as a proactive tool for growth, alignment, and sustainability.

Mary Simon:

So in part one, we were able to have a good discussion about what is coaching, what isn’t coaching, who can benefit from it, and how to even get to a point where you’re ready to pick up the phone or send the email to initiate that relationship. I really want to dig into some of the more substantive issues that I know, not that I think, but that I know are prevalent among probably the vast majority of female attorneys. And I’ve posed this question to my colleagues here. Why do you think that there are so many women who leave litigation? And I’m putting air quotes on that because it happens. And am I nine years out, eight, nine? I don’t know, somewhere around there. I have a four-year-old and a seven-month-old. And I could list off 10 reasons in five seconds about why I think women leave.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Those are the reasons.

Mary Simon:

Right? I mean, it just perplexes me. And I’m just using this opportunity to talk to the two of you because you have such a vast amount of knowledge about this in your clientele and whatnot. But

I think about it often. I really do. I don’t know if it’s having kids and then you’re sitting every day being like, “Should I be the one to pick her up from school every day or the nanny’s with her now?” But I really love my job. So I’m constantly thinking about that. And then there’s the part of me that’s like, “But I want her to see me do what I want to do so then she can do what she wants to do. But also she’s about to go into kindergarten. So should I be spending every day this summer with

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Her before?” Oh my gosh. It is so hard to be a working mom.

Mary Simon:

But why do women … And then it’s a profession too. I’m answering the question.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Yeah. This is coaching. Oh my gosh. Go on.

Mary Simon:

But then if you take off a couple years, the thing that I’m thinking, you can always take off a couple years and you can always … I’m like, but then all the people who are at my job are going to keep doing the marketing and get all the cases and where did Mary go? And then she’s back. And then she hasn’t been in a courtroom in two years because she’s been with the kids. It’s so hard to think about. But I’m curious what you all … Is it those reasons that women leave?

Kelli Dunaway:

It’s a broken system.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

The

Kelli Dunaway:

System was built by and for white hetero men generations ago that had wives at home and it never really changed.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Right. Yeah. And so you still have people from that generation and who grew up in that type of environment who think, “I did it like this. Why would you need something different? Why would you need to work from home? Why would you need a flexible schedule? Why would you need to work part-time? Why would you need to leave and pick up your kid and come back?” I didn’t have to do all that.

Kelli Dunaway:

In part because they actually have no idea how much work it is to run a household

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

And

Kelli Dunaway:

To manage kids and to get everybody where they need to be and up to date on what they need to do and all the things that you have to do when you walk out of the door here. And that mismatch is one of Mollie’s specialties, that mismatch of home labor, the mental load that women, especially moms, carry or any other caregivers, and the system that just refuses to bend to us and what we need to be successful here.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

I think it’s also, I mean, the system is broken and part of that broken system is the way that women have learned to talk to themselves and what we’ve learned to expect of ourselves and the whole idea that women can do it all. So why can’t you? Why can’t you be a busy litigator and a mom and do both really well and not have any of these questions? Well, because you only have a certain amount of time and you have to take care of yourself and chances are you probably aren’t because you don’t have time. And that’s the thing that you leave. You get to take your shower by yourself and then you do all these other things. And you’re asking yourself, “How come I can’t do it? How come I don’t know the answers? How come I’m not doing this? How come I don’t know what to do?

” Those are the kind of things that coaching can help you sort out because you can figure out, do you really want to work to show your daughter that or not? Is that society telling you this message? Is that you?

Mary Simon:

I don’t know.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Right. So it’s hard to differentiate. What is it that you really want? How often do you stop and think about what it is that you really want? I mean, we don’t all have the luxury of doing that. But if you felt like you had a clear answer for yourself about why you were doing what you’re doing, it feels different and you don’t have to waste all that energy asking yourself all these questions and trying to figure out, why do I never know the right answer for what to do?

Mary Simon:

If we all agree system is broken with that concept, what is something that you would say to hetero white man?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

We’re not allowed to say it.

Mary Simon:

It’s like, well, what do you want me to do about it? What am I supposed to do about it?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Believe the experiences of the people that are telling you that they need help, that they need to do it differently, that they need-

Mary Simon:

But how would that look differently? So I think that, I mean, I’m in a very privileged, wonderful position at my office where I can have flexibility and I can create that time for myself. And at the same time, I’ve also recently been negotiating in my head of, should I get up at 3:00 AM instead of 4:00 AM so I can finish these five tasks

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Because

Mary Simon:

Then I’ll have the morning time, whatever. But this is a fun anecdote for our listeners too. I can immediately tell, if I’m speaking to a male opposing counsel or a male attorney, I can immediately tell in a conversation what his home dynamic is. If I say something like on the snow day and I’m home with my kids and there’s a couple phone calls, I moved a couple, again, luxury of me being able to do that. And then there’s one I didn’t want to. And it was a conversation with this guy and my daughter was talking to me in the background, so I was half talking about K-pop demon hunters, half talking about a

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Case- So good.

Mary Simon:

… which is so normal. And so I’m doing that and I was like, “Oh, I don’t know if you have kids, but you know how this goes.” Silence.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Oh man.

Mary Simon:

Just not even an appreciation of, “I don’t yet, but no problem.” And immediately I’m like, “I’m not welcome to introduce that right now.” And I have found, and it was the same attorney and we were doing some scheduling thing and I was like, “Well, my son has his six-month doctor’s appointment and I really wanted to bring him to that silence on the phone.” And I guess I could see if I could move it back a day. “Oh, that would be great. Thanks. “And that would never happen with a woman.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

I’d never. Never. If they had children or not, that would never happen. They may be judging you.

Mary Simon:

Is that what we’re talking about? We’re talking about system? Yes. Yes. So how do you say,” Hey, this is the point in the conversation where you’re supposed to say, No problem, Mary. “What’s stopping you from saying that? That was the point. I guess nothing now. It’s me.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Well, it’s you because you’re not the problem. The system is the problem and the system taught you that that is not appropriate and that you shouldn’t be able to take care of what you need to take care of for yourself and your family.

Kelli Dunaway:

And the system taught you to stay small and let the man be big.

Mary Simon:

And that’s why I asked him part one, go listen to part one of what do you say to the feedback of, ” I’m getting a coach. “And that’s the audience that I’m thinking about.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

So what I say is one thing that I heard on a podcast that I wish I could credit during the pandemic because it was revolutionary for me that it’s not your business what anybody else thinks of you. And it’s easy to say that if it’s your boss who’s deciding what your raises or whatever, it does feel a little bit different.

Kelli Dunaway:

I do think one of the great things that we women can do a better job to break the system is to say what we need. This is what I need right now. I need a coach or I need a day off or I need my mom to pick up the kids or I need to just an hour of quiet. And I think it’s really hard for us to say what we want because we’ve been taught by society to put everyone else’s needs first.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Right. And this also happens when you have women before you, right? So it’s perpetuating against women over time. And so then you have the woman partner who didn’t do that and now the men above her are like, ” Well, she’s really successful and she never took her child to the doctor. “You’re like, ” Okay, well, she cried on the way home every day. “Right. I mean, okay, is that what we’re going for?

Elizabeth McNulty:

Right. What about, I’m thinking, I feel like I don’t have a lot of issues saying what I need, but the guilt associated with taking that is something I struggle with a lot. I need a day, I’ll take the day off, but I will spend the day ruminating on these are all the things I could be doing at work. And then it’s like, well, I shouldn’t have taken the day off because I wasted it. Just

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Feeling- Just stuff we tell ourselves.

Kelli Dunaway:

I know. How come you do that, Elizabeth?

Elizabeth McNulty:

I don’t know. I think it’s probably a comparison thing. Well, other people here didn’t need to take a day off. Why did I need to take a day off? I must not be performing at such a high

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Level as them. Yeah, this competition. And I mean, it starts in law school and I don’t know if it- I think it started in law school.

And law school makes it worse because it is always this. I mean, I remember just some random person, I have no idea what they’re like, how smart they are, how hard they work, what their grades are. And I’m still like, “Oh my God, he’s at the library and I’m not. ” Okay, who cares? But we do compare ourselves and attorneys do that and women do that. And so women attorneys and moms do that. So women attorney moms are constantly like, she’s a better mom, he’s a better lawyer. She didn’t need time off. I mean, who knows? Maybe she’s not doing anything in the office because she needs a day off and you’re at home wishing that you were … I mean, it’s all in our heads. It’s not all in our heads, but we perpetuate it in our heads.

Kelli Dunaway:

But we can stop that too. There are tools for that. I mean, when I catch my mind spinning out of control into these unhelpful, destructive, self-harming thoughts, just

Mary Simon:

These …

Kelli Dunaway:

I’m just like, whoa, I take a deep breath and what jumps into your head is not your fault. That first thought is not your fault, but the second thought is because you have the choice to let that go and think something else and act on the thing that you want. It’s just learning how to interrupt the tornado that is really, really hard. But once you do, you can create the space away from that and hopefully work away from the guilt too.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Right.

Mary Simon:

And I’ve also heard there are some firms that do … This is another kind of tangible example that I thought was kind of … I’m saying it’s creative, but really it’s not creative. It’s something that probably should have happened a long, long time ago, right? It’s not some novel idea. Really

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Creative

Mary Simon:

Solution. But here are some firms that will do family leave, for example. So it’s like if any member of the family has a baby whoever, whether adoption, whatever,

Then husband, wife, whoever it is, the parents of the child in that household, they get leave off and they’re told they’re not going to get work for that period of time. And I really like that because in my head, I’m always thinking … Well, one cool thing about … There are many cool things about being a woman, but one of them particularly is like, after you have a baby, it’s like primal. I don’t give a shit about anything else.This is it. I don’t care who’s email. I don’t care what fire it is. I’m not putting it out. I got the one job and I want that one job. It’s the further you get out from that, that you start to negotiate priorities, but I do appreciate something that’s a tangible change like that dynamic of leave because I still, even with second baby, in my head, I’m thinking, but that’s a couple months where my male colleagues are going to be filling in for these significant things in these cases for me and they’re going to be having facetime with those lawyers who then might turn into referral lawyers that I’m missing out on.

I was going through my head of all the disadvantages

Of taking that time, which I wouldn’t change.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

I

Mary Simon:

Wouldn’t

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Change that time.

Mary Simon:

But it’s nice to be like, “Hey, what’s a way at a firm level that we can balance that a little bit more by just saying, we’re not going to … You obviously want work covered and everything, which is great. And we’re good at that here of sharing responsibility.” But it’s one idea to be like, “Hey, if that’s happening with that family, we’re not going to have that person come in a week after their wife just had a baby and say, Oh, you’re back at the office already?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Such a hard worker. We’re

Mary Simon:

Not going to encourage that. Right.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Right. I mean, I think the most equitable way to do parental leave is everybody has to take it. It is expected that if a birth parent is going to and that the other parent, if there is another parent, can, we’re going to give it to them, but it’s not the same situation. They’re not physically healing. But then we’re creating this system where the birth parent is the only one who knows how to make the baby stop crying or the only one who knows where the doctor’s office is or the only one who defaults to, I’m going to stay home when the baby’s six months old and sick because my partner hasn’t really spent a whole lot of time alone with the baby. And so then creating the system where then you have unrelated … I mean, this is like the whole society needs to change for this to work out, right?

But then you’re at this other place, right? We’re working on it where it’s sometimes the man who’s staying home and your female associates are at work because their partner is, if they’re in a heterosexual couple, their partner is the one who’s staying home because they have just as much experience.

Mary Simon:

And you make those decisions. The thing is, sometimes it forces your hand. You have to at some point. I mean, my husband worked at a firm, he’s an attorney as well, and he worked at a firm that I just told him if we both worked there, we couldn’t. One of us would have to quit. And he’s like, absolutely. And he didn’t stay at that firm, I think for a little bit, for more than one reason, even the practice area, he wanted to do something different. But the structure of that office, it was me who had more flexibility and I had to have it because the timing of assignments and the way that work was handed out with these arbitrary deadlines, being the attorney that I am, I had a feeling that some of them were kind

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Of,

Mary Simon:

“This is not urgent.” But there’s no way two parents could

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Do that. No.

Mary Simon:

It doesn’t even have their kids. Pet parents could not have that job and they wanted to be home. So I do … It’s like even those two examples at those different firms, the individuals who work there are going to have wildly different lives, like quality of life is going to be so different. And

Kelli Dunaway:

They’re going to have wildly different possibilities for success. Can a caregiver mom be successful in that firm? No way.

Mary Simon:

No way.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

And then what happens to every other woman who works there after that because they don’t have that person who’s a caregiver, successful partner?

Mary Simon:

Elizabeth and I, we’re always kind of just talking about things like that of why do we see such trends among female attorneys? And I do think it’s better now than it was- Oh, way better. Yeah. But it’s something that I’m constantly thinking about is we’re always seeing women either switching firms or they’re not at this firm anymore, but I can’t figure out what firm they’re at and where did they go? You know what I mean? I

Kelli Dunaway:

Have a radical idea.

Mary Simon:

Lay it on us. Well,

Kelli Dunaway:

Why don’t all the women build their own firm with their own structures and their own systems and onsite childcare and a doctor on staff or a nurse, somebody that can just take care of all the things so that it’s a more seamless, understanding, compassionate, heart-centered, led organization.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

There are women firms that aren’t like that. I mean, they’re still impacted by this is the way the law firm model is successful. We need to get out of that. There are firms

Kelli Dunaway:

Now that are being run by people of color who are much more in tune with the regional environment where they can be successful. And I think when women start to really take the helm and take over organizations, that’s where we’ll really see systems change.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Well, and it’s the idea of it’s not doing something worse or less successful to create a system like this. Your people are just as successful. Your firm is just as successful. Your professional aspirations are just as high. It’s just doing it differently and seeing better results. Why

Kelli Dunaway:

Does it have to be from : Why can’t I have a call on Saturday at 10:00 if that works better for my schedule than Friday at 9:00?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Because somebody else doesn’t understand why that would work better for you.

Mary Simon:

Yeah. Unless all the attorneys on the case are women, it would happen.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I feel like here at our firm where we have a lot of autonomy, we can do kind of what we want. We set our own schedules. I pretty much practice on my own, but I feel like then the onus shifts to me to set boundaries and to create … And I think that that is really challenging. It’s an ongoing challenge because there are other people here who don’t maybe have-

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

They don’t have boundaries.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. And so it’s just like, I don’t know how you do that or you feel okay with the boundaries that you’ve set and you continue to set hard lines of like, “Well, I’m not going to say yes to that because it doesn’t work for my schedule.” So I feel like it’s a different challenge, but it comes with a lot of privilege because we get to make our own decisions. But as a young lawyer, that is very scary, especially as a young female lawyer. So what advice do you give to situations like that?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

I think this is something, I mean, part of Kelli’s love is values. And I think part of what you have to do then is figure out what you want and what your values are and how you set your boundaries to maintain those values. And some of that is like, okay, well, somebody else is working longer hours and you aren’t, but what is it that you care about? If you care about doing a good job for your clients and X, Y, and Z, then it doesn’t matter what that person is doing. Who is the voice in your head telling you that you should be doing something else and to what end?

Kelli Dunaway:

Yeah. I would say boundaries are tough for women because again, we’ve been taught to put everybody else’s needs ahead of hours. And I think this is where I really want to ask you, what is it about setting boundaries that’s hard?

Elizabeth McNulty:

It’s a good question. I feel like it’s just like, I’m pretty good at setting them, but it’s like the others, like other people here or other people, other lawyers practicing that don’t have as restrictive boundaries. And then it’s like, well, is what I’m doing okay? And can I still be successful with the boundaries that I’ve set? I think it’s kind of the ultimate question for me.

Mary Simon:

And there’s no one doing that work. She’s doing that work of the, “Is this okay?” And then she’s at our desk being like, “Is this okay, Elizabeth?”

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

So who’s the voice might be okay?

Mary Simon:

I’m curious about that.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I don’t know. I mean, I guess it’s my own voice. I think because for so long you are working all the time towards this one specific goal and then you get there and you’re like, “Oh, well, do I have to keep working so many hours a day?” When does it end? And I decided, well, it’s ending now, but can I still be as successful as I have been without that

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Challenge? Is it as successful as you have been or as successful as you want to be?

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah, probably as I want to be. I don’t know why it’s- I guess those

Mary Simon:

Are two different questions.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah, rearview focused or just like I’ve been putting in a lot of work to get to where I am. Do I have to keep putting in that same amount of work or have I gotten to a point where like, “Oh, I’m comfortable in this. Do I have to keep reaching for more?” And I think that’s a unique challenge in what we do because it always feels like you could be doing more and there’s a push for more.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

You always can be.

Kelli Dunaway:

I think as women like us, we always are striving for more. The question is, what’s the more you want to strive for now that you’ve reached this comfort level with this thing that was a good achievement for you? And I’m going to be a guide instead of a coach for just a minute and just tell you what I heard, is that something is important to you, important enough to set some boundaries in place, but are they important enough for you to hold those boundaries? And once you get to the bottom of that, I think it’s really going to be worth it because it’s holding those boundaries that’s going to let you reach for the more that you want in this new space.

Mary Simon:

You know the great thing about having a coach is that in the jobs that we’re in, we love challenges and I’m like, okay, I hear you. All right. I’ll put that down as a challenge. Even as you say that, and also too, I’m hearing the concept of not even just your values, but what you believe you deserve versus what you’re thinking, are the people around me going to think I deserve to not have to put in the same amount? Do I care?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Right. Do you care is the question.

Mary Simon:

Don’t care. And that’s a challenge to be. Okay. And I’m even thinking like a practical example. This is another funny anecdote is that I was telling a male lawyer the other day about my childcare situation. I have a nanny and she’s typically during work hours of 8:30 to five, I don’t know, again, arbitrary, I don’t know, 8:30 to five is what’s working for me right now and then my family and he was like, “What happens if your nanny gets sick?” And I’m like … Right? Because that’s something that I address. You don’t, and you haven’t. But now in my head, what I’m thinking about as a new challenge that I’m hearing that I need to do is answer that question. I’m going to answer those questions. I’m going to answer them now because it’s- Out loud. I’m

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Going to answer that out. We don’t to hide it. This is what the situation that we’re all in. Who do you think is taking care of these children? Exactly. This is the same as in the pandemic. We’re like, “Oh, I go to school and you all have to work.” Okay. In my

Mary Simon:

Head I was sitting there thinking, “Oh, they just get another mom that day.”

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Yeah. I don’t know. What do you think happens?

Mary Simon:

Babies. Yeah. It also makes me laugh. Elizabeth has so much amazing advice on all these other episodes of our podcast, whether she believes it or not. I constantly am thinking about things that she’s said before.

Elizabeth McNulty:

That’s so

Mary Simon:

Good. And one of them is repeating back to the person who’s challenging that sort of out of the box, what happens if the nanny … And it’s like, what do you think happens if the annies? Yeah. Exactly. What’s your best guess? Being like, “What was that? ” To just have them either repeat that, to give them a second to think about it. That would be a good example to do that in. But in my head, when I was asked that, I was like, all I can take from that sort of comment is that there’s an assumption being made about my work if my child’s care-

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

We’re second on your list of importance.

Mary Simon:

Yes. And that is the sort of my thought that I’m having when she’s saying I’m having this internal struggle of, can I take the day off and what is it going to be perceived at? It’s because we get those questions. What do you do if the nanny’s sick? And in my head I’m just thinking, oh, there is a thought right now of

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Mary doesn’t

Mary Simon:

Work if the … You know what

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

I mean? There is. And do you want to set your goals to satisfy that person?

Kelli Dunaway:

No.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Right? Is that realistic? Do

Kelli Dunaway:

I

Mary Simon:

Care?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Right.

Kelli Dunaway:

Exactly.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Right. Yeah. I mean, what happens? I take care of my children or my husband does or we figure something out and it’s not your business for the nanny on top of that. I have a job. And also the nanny’s expected to work when she’s sick, just like I am.

Mary Simon:

And she has kids and we make extra cookies for her that

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Day. I mean, we’re a society. And if you’re not part of that and you’re just working, just do what you need

Mary Simon:

To do. Yeah. And I think one of the benefits too of having those sort of reflective questions is it’s by individuals. It kind of goes full circle back to our initial … The first thing we talked about is it’s so helpful because there’s attorneys asking attorneys questions. So there’s no doubt of you 100% understand the struggle or the dynamic, but also being able to have someone who has in your same profession being like, “Actually, you can just say X,

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Y, Z.”

Mary Simon:

And there’s not really typically a person who’s there other than ourselves sitting in our office being like- It’s

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

In your head. Yeah.

Mary Simon:

Can I say that? Am I allowed

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

To? Yes. Say whatever you want.

Mary Simon:

Yeah, you should. In fact, I’m just going to remember you all saying yes, you can say it. I’ll just put a

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Post-it on my desk. Hold up, hold up. There’s something you shouldn’t say. I

Kelli Dunaway:

Mean, some

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Things

Kelli Dunaway:

You

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Said, but- Those are for the group chat. There’s group chat things and there’s-

Mary Simon:

That’s a podcast for another day.

Kelli Dunaway:

But I do think pushing back on people’s assumptions like that, the guy who’s like, “What happens if the nanny calls in sick?” I think that’s a really important place to push back and be like, “Yeah, what do you think does happen?” Just ask the question back to them.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

What are you saying?

Mary Simon:

Yes.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

And this is making me think also about, Elizabeth, your question about how do you know, should I be taking the day off?This person is in all those questions. And one of the things we talk about in some of our programming is, and what a lot of people are talking about at a lot of law firms is the mental health, the substance abuse, the all sorts of issues that lawyers have because we historically have not taken care of those things. And if we’re working in a system where there are known high levels of mental health issues and suicidal thoughts and substance abuse and all of these things, and those are the voices that are in your head saying, “Should I take the day off?” I mean, we don’t have to keep doing the things that were expected of lawyers forever because it’s not working for lawyers.

Lawyers are not a happy, healthy bunch. And so maybe if your voice inside your head is saying, “I shouldn’t do this, ” that’s a thing you should do because listening to those voices has gotten us to where we are now.

Kelli Dunaway:

Yeah. I say my whole theory on the voices inside your head is to only listen to the ones that tell you how beautiful you are and how great you are and how much you’re going to love this day off. All the rest of them can just bugger off.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

And some of the things we were talking about in coaching are like, what has happened in the past when you’ve taken a day off, if you’ve missed something, if you missed a deadline, if you had something to do that you forgot, how have you come back from that? And you kind of can learn about all the ways that you are able to actually figure things out if you let yourself do what you need and then you figure out the problems when you return.

Kelli Dunaway:

There are very few things in the legal industry that cannot be fixed.

Mary Simon:

So true. So true. And very few emergencies in civil litigation. Criminal I can’t really speak to and I could see some-

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Yeah. I mean, there are some more life or death kind of life or timing, but you can figure things out. Everybody has made mistakes and the idea that you need to drop everything or never put home first because that means you’re not a dedicated professional like so- and-so. It’s just not true. And somebody who’s living their life, like everything is an emergency and everything needs to happen here at work first. This is my first priority, is that the life you want to live?

Mary Simon:

Yeah. And I even, part of the benefit of having this conversation too is it’s so timeless.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

So

Mary Simon:

Us having this conversation and even having the opportunity for it to be on a platform where it’s recorded and we can revisit it, it’s a nice reminder to go back to because we all get stuck in our little silos. Oh yeah, sure. So it’s so nice to be able to come up for air and then hear someone be like, “Oh, you’re struggling with picking that day off that probably is all those things telling you there’s a reason why and you need to trust that why.” And And just being reminded of that is so refreshing. It’s almost like everyone needs a coach.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Nice work.

Elizabeth McNulty:

You got it. That’s

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

It.

Elizabeth McNulty:

For someone listening and thinking maybe this is for me, where should they start?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

I mean, most, I would say all coaches have a discovery call mechanism.

Kelli Dunaway:

Aspire to your potential,

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Dom.

And you set up a meeting with one of us, you could set up a meeting with both of us separately. And an important part about coaching is that you’re a good fit. I don’t want to work with someone just because it’s a client and it’s money. If that person is not the right fit for me or I’m not the right fit for them. And so it is really important to have that discovery call, that informational call to see what you’re looking at, what kind of accountability you need, what kind do you need someone who’s a straight shooter? Do you need someone who’s a little bit more touchy feely?What kind of accountability do you want? Kelli and I have different coaching styles.

Kelli Dunaway:

We refer clients to each other all the time. That makes sense. Because I’m confrontational as a coach. And so if you don’t want to get real fast, you go talk to Mollie. Got it.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Although Kelli’s more woo-woo than me. So it’s hard to … It’s touchy-feely, but not woo-woo. That’s how we’re defining it. Which

Mary Simon:

Is also an interesting pair to be confrontational and woo-woo.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

That’s fascinating. It’s just a fascinating person. It’s

Mary Simon:

A great dynamic.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

It’s good to get different perspective, but you also want to be establishing a relationship with one coach so that you’re not like … I mean, it’s the same as you don’t go to a bunch of different therapists. I mean, for different reasons you could, but coaching, since it is figuring out what’s in you and what you need, it’s not like I’m going to go … Well, there are business development coaches and career development coaches who have different … Because coaches do have some level of expertise. And so it’s not just asking questions. There is some … I am an imposter syndrome informed coach, so I have information on imposter syndrome from trainings that I will add in to coaching if that is relevant. So there is some teaching that’s part of it. And so there is expertise that you want to make sure that you’re matched with the right person personality-wise and substance-wise.

Yeah.

Kelli Dunaway:

Yeah. I’m trying to think. I don’t know that I have a standard stereotypical client or expertise. I would say come to me if you’re ready to work. If you know that you’re here and you want to be there and you’re ready to get to work, you call me because we’ll get this shit done.

Mary Simon:

Yeah. Love that model.

Kelli Dunaway:

Yeah, me too.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Getting shit done. Yeah.

Kelli Dunaway:

And I like to move fast. Some people like to stretch it out and I’ll work with people who want to take their time and have a month in between sessions, but I like to get to work and get things made. Get a plan.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

I mean, that’s the other thing that’s really important about coaching is that you have to be ready to think about the hard questions and you have to be ready to take action because we’re not here telling you what to do and we’re not making you do the things. There are accountability measures that we can put into place depending on what you’re looking for. But you as the client are the person who’s coming up with, “I think I need to do this. I’m going to try this next time. I’m going to do this thing.”

Kelli Dunaway:

All I’m going to ask you is what

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

You got out of not

Kelli Dunaway:

Doing it. I’m not going to judge you or-

Mary Simon:

It’s funny because I was even thinking as both of you were describing that, I’m like, how many of your clients meet with you once and then you don’t hear from for about 18 months and then they pick up the phone and call you.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

It happens that they’re like, “Oh God, now now I have some questions.”

Mary Simon:

It’s a lot of looking in a mirror, which is hard. It’s so hard to do. So yeah, it takes courage and-

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

It

Mary Simon:

Does

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Take

Mary Simon:

Courage. It can be very scary. Yeah. Yeah. But beneficial.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli :

Courage and fear go hand in hand or something.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Thank you both for joining us. We really appreciate this conversation. I know I learned a lot. I can tell Mary learned a ton. And for any of our listeners, we’d encourage you to reflect on where you want to be next and share the episode with a colleague if you found this helpful. You can find Mollie and Kelli at aspiretierpotential.com if you’re interested in learning more about their coaching. And thank you all for listening. You can find us at [email protected], and we drop episodes every other Wednesday. See you next time.

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