EP 1004: From Lawyers to Coaches Part One

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Welcome back to another episode of Heals in the Courtroom. I’m Elizabeth McNulty, and today I’m here with Mary Simon, and we are joined by two guests, Mollie Farrell and Kelli Dunaway from Aspire. Kelli began her career as a lawyer, but found her calling and coaching lawyers and the people who support them, a fierce advocate for a better world. Kelli has spent much of her career dabbling in the public sector as a volunteer and elected official. These experiences have uniquely shaped Kelli’s coaching and training practices designed to empower others to lead their lives with intentionality and purpose. Mollie’s worked in the legal industry for over 20 years, practicing law in both private practice and the federal government, and then serving as the director of professional development at a midsize law firm. She spent over 15 of these years as a working mom, navigating her career in full-time and part-time roles.

Mollie brings firsthand insights from these experiences into everything she does with clients. Mollie and Kelli are leadership and executive coaches who work primarily with high-performing women professionals, including many women lawyers who are navigating demanding careers, leadership roles, and the pressure to do it all. They founded a company called Aspire, and we are so happy to have them with us today.

Mary Simon:

And after hearing those bios in my head, I’m just thinking there’s no one in the legal profession who couldn’t use your advice. And counsel and guidance. Truly.

Kelli Dunaway:

Believe me, we have feel the same way. Please. And I’m so glad you’re giving us this opportunity to talk more about it because I feel like there are so many misconceptions about what coaching is, who it’s for, how and who can benefit from it. So it’s great to be here. Thanks for having us.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Definitely. I mean, we both like working with coaches as well. There’s always something more you can work on.

Mary Simon:

I mean, how did you both make the decision independently at the same time separately to pivot to coaching?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Helly founded Aspire, so I’ll let her … She left and did that first, and then I joined her.

Kelli Dunaway:

Well, my pivot actually came up and so did yours, really. I decided pretty early on in the practice of law that practicing law was not for me. I carried the weight of it so heavily that I couldn’t sleep, I had hives. It was just not a good fit for I don’t want this much stress in my life. And I discovered at that time in my career, I was in Los Angeles that there was this new field rising up and it was attorney professional development. And so I made the pivot into lawyer professional development. I’m not going to give my age too far away. A long time ago. And then I built a career mostly in large global firms, but some mid-size firms along the way too. But it was the pandemic that made me leave big law and hang a shingle because I burnt out and I experienced all those things that I coach women through now.

So that’s my story.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Yeah. So I guess, yes, similar. I practiced for about 10 years and my husband and I moved back to St. Louis when we had one kid and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And I actually started working at a law school in career services because I thought guiding, helping, supporting law students and trying to figure out how to start the journey would be something that I would be good at and would really enjoy. And I did. But then at some point I pivoted to wanting to work more with attorneys and I knew I would see these law students when they started and I could help them more in supportive roles as professional development and trainer at a midsize firm where I got to work with associates and partners. And really what I learned also was that I love working on the policy development and just figuring out how to put structures in place that really support attorneys as they’re training and learning and doing the legal work, figuring out a way to support them so that they can be as successful as possible when they’re working.

Through that, I became a certified coach. I knew Kelli. Kelli was my professional development mentor when I was at my firm. And I just knew that that’s what I wanted to do was work one-on-one with individual attorneys. Mostly I work with women and it was also the pandemic that made … She left right in the pandemic, 21. And I left in 23, I think, because I knew I wanted to have more flexibility and freedom in who and how I supported attorneys.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Both of your careers just seem so interesting to me and not something that I think someone who traditionally has a law degree would think that this is a career path for them. Do you think that you would have the careers you have today had you not gone to law school and practiced for a while and then decided, “Hey, maybe I’ll do something else.” Do you think a JD is necessary for what you do?

Kelli Dunaway:

I don’t think it’s necessary for the work, but I think it’s necessary for the credibility. Because

Elizabeth McNulty:

A great

Kelli Dunaway:

Decision. Lawyers only trust other lawyers to the extent they trust anyone.

Mary Simon:

Yeah. So true. Fair.

Kelli Dunaway:

And most positions like the ones Mollie and I had in our firms are JD preferred roles. I mean, they’ll hire someone who isn’t a lawyer if they have a lot of experience and a bunch of other letters under your name that say, “I’m a certified coach. I know how to work with professionals. I understand complex, fast-moving professional environments.”

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Yeah. And as coaches, I mean, really you can coach anyone on anything, right? It’s listening, it’s understanding, it’s trying to help someone be accountable and figure out what’s going on in their own heads that they can’t kind of unjumble themselves. But to coach lawyers, it’s very helpful to have the background of, we’re all kind of starting from the same place, even though we didn’t all have the same career path here. And I think the same goes for other professionals because there’s something to be … The high stakes office environment and the expectations of traditional roles, that this lends itself to that too. But the law degree definitely helps.

Mary Simon:

How do you guys define coaching?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

You just looked it up yesterday to see. I was like,

Kelli Dunaway:

“How are we going to talk about this?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

” Yeah.

Kelli Dunaway:

I see it as a co-creative partnership where my job is to help you get from where you are right now to where you want to be. And so coaching is for anybody that has a dream. For anyone that has a goal that seems too far out of reach or they don’t feel they’re worth it or the time’s not right, I’m here to tell you the time is right. It’s time to invest in getting yourself from where you are to where you want to be.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

And I’ll add, when I hear it’s for anyone who has a dream, I think there’s some people that are like, “I don’t know if I have a dream. I’m just working.” You get to the point where you’re like, “I’ve been practicing for eight years. This is what I do. I don’t know what my dream is. ” And part of coaching can help you figure that out also if you just feel like you’re stuck or there’s something more or there’s something missing or it helps to just talk it out and have someone hear objectively what you’re feeling and then help you kind of piece it back together again.

Mary Simon:

It also sounds like it’s a method or a mechanism to avoid complacency in your profession because it seems like you go to law school and you work so hard and then you’re a young lawyer and you’re starting out at a firm and you kind of work your way up to whatever the position is, an associate, then a junior, then a senior and maybe a partner and it’s like all of a sudden you blink and it’s been 10 years and you’re like, wait, what do I have? Did I choose? Yeah. It’s like to avoid kind of just being-

Kelli Dunaway:

You just being held half my client who wake up and they’re like in the shoot for partnership and they’re like, “Oh my God, how did I get here? Is this what I really want? What do I do

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Now?” Yeah. And maybe it is, but if you’re at the point where you don’t know if this is what you want, it’s a good time to stop and figure it out before you get to the step where you really are like, “I guess this is life.” And

Mary Simon:

I feel like a lot of attorneys do that either at the very beginning of their career or at the seven to 10 year mark. Yeah,

Kelli Dunaway:

I think

That’s right. Because when you’re first starting out, not only is this all new and it’s chaos and it’s coming at you so fast and you feel like you have no idea what you’re doing, you also have people that are teaching you how to set up systems, how to get organized, how to design your workday in a way that allows this chaos to come at you in a way that you can handle. And then you get sucked into the work and more demands and now you have to manage people and then you take on a leadership role and then, oh my gosh, I’m in the partnership window and it just snuck up on you.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. Right. And why do you think that is? Just because I feel like those people are obviously high performers and I think I could say that happens to me. You just get so involved in the work and bogged down in it and you realize like, “Oh, I’ve been doing this for a long time. This is really what I want to be doing now.” And so why do you think so many lawyers, or maybe it’s not a lawyer specific problem, just feel so stuck.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

I mean, I think it is kind of a lawyer specific. I think a lot of professionals feel this way, but it is common in the legal profession. And part of it is a lot of type A personalities, professional, really highly motivated, highly intelligent, competitive people. Law school trains you to always kind of be looking at what somebody else is doing and if they’re studying more, what their grades are, if they’re in whatever percentage or what law firms are recruiting them. And you kind of get in this mode where that’s how you think and then you get, if you go to a firm and then you’re comparing billable hours and you’re comparing reviews and raises and all of that stuff. And sometimes you’re just doing it for the kind of dopamine hit of getting the next thing and then you’re like, “Oh wait, what? I’m doing great and I didn’t even necessarily choose this practice area.”

Kelli Dunaway:

And I would say it’s wired in, right? More than 50% of lawyers are motivated by a high need for achievement. So each time you achieve the next thing, those endorphins are bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. And so then you are set on a journey to achieve the next best thing. And then that sort of cuts out all the gray area in between where you could make the time and space to reflect and ask yourself, “Do I like this work? Do I like these people? Is this what I really want to be doing with my

Mary Simon:

Time?” It’s so true. I mean, especially being a plaintiff’s attorney, it’s like you get one verdict, you’re like, “Ooh, I want to get the next tirework.” It could be bigger. Yeah, it just fits that. Even in my brain, I’m like, “Oh gosh, are you talking about me? “

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

There’s nothing wrong with it, but it’s good to stop and reflect. And I think a lot of people think, we’ve talked about coaching, which is not just for … A lot of times we’ll get a call from a firm that’s, “We really need to work with this person. They’re having a hard time with their … They’ve got tricky reviews and they need this and this and this. ” And I get that, but it’s also your seventh year who is going after the next thing and the next thing and the next thing who’s doing great and you want to make sure that they’re not burning out, that they’re taking care of themselves, that they’re choosing the path that they’re on, that they … It’s not coaching to try to figure out why you’re doing this and you don’t really want it. It’s coaching to reinforce why you’re doing it and be able to focus on the things that you really care about, both at work and outside of work.

Mary Simon:

How would you, mostly for me, but also for the listeners, I guess I am supposed to say that, how do you differentiate what you do versus someone saying, “I have a mentor.” There’s an attorney that I go to when I’m in tough spots who kind of guides me through based on their experience or whatever. How would you differentiate what you do from that?

Kelli Dunaway:

I would say you just said the difference. The coaches don’t guide. Coaches see you at your highest potential and ask you the questions that will help you see it too.

Mary Simon:

It’s more individualized.

Kelli Dunaway:

Oh, it’s 100%

Mary Simon:

Individualized.

Kelli Dunaway:

And we can demonstrate if any of you brought up something you’re struggling with at some

Mary Simon:

Point, we can

Kelli Dunaway:

Do it. Yeah.

Mary Simon:

Well, I mean, I have a bajillion questions now that I’m thinking about, but just for ease of the episode, we can kind of maybe break it into two different sections because I feel like the layers of questions that I have in my head, I could get deeper and deeper and deeper into. We’re going to have to cut. Yeah,

Elizabeth McNulty:

Exactly. I’ll start charging you

Mary Simon:

At

Elizabeth McNulty:

Some

Mary Simon:

Point. Yeah, exactly. Let’s say someone looks at what you all do and I’ll just use a female attorney for this conversation too, gets to a point where they’re like, “Okay, I think that coaching would be beneficial to me. I already have the mentor, already have the thing. I’m already doing great at the firm, but let’s figure out how I could benefit or reach full potential.” What is the most common initial thing that you hear from most of your clients? What’s the most common problem or issue or question that’s posed to you initially? Is there one?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

I don’t know that there’s the most common. I mean, sometimes I think it’s people who know that there’s just something missing. They’re trying to figure out what’s next and is it really something different or is it just the way I’m thinking about something? A lot of times the people that I talk to are trying to figure out how they can … Things are so lopsided that they’re either feeling like they’re not giving their all at work or they’re not giving their all at home and they’re trying to figure out how to make that work and what’s wrong with them that they can’t when there’s not something wrong with them. There’s something wrong with our entire system. And that’s with women, that can happen with anyone. But I think for me, a lot of times it’s someone who’s like, there’s just something that’s not right and I can’t figure out what it is because I’m successful, but I feel like I’m failing.

Mary Simon:

Yeah, that’s fascinating because it’s almost like they can’t pinpoint what the thing is.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Yeah. It’s just that it is a thing. Well, and coaching helps get to … And that’s another difference between coaching and mentoring. A mentor is going to be like, “Well, have you tried Pilates?” Yeah, correct. And a coach is going to be like, “How much sleep did you get last night?” And a coach is going to be like, “What is in your head right now? What do you think the problem is? Or what do you think you’re missing?” Or if you could have anything you wanted be different in your life, what would it be? And it didn’t matter about money or whatever roles you see yourself in. I mean, it just helps the person kind of open up beyond the framework that we as attorneys kind of put our lives through.

Kelli Dunaway:

And it’s also a creation of space to actually think. When I throw out a powerful question, I sit back sometimes and say nothing for five minutes, six minutes, seven minutes, just to give you the space to process. And sometimes in a coaching conversation when we’re really deep in it, my client will say something that I have been waiting weeks and months. I could have told you this on day one. They finally say it and I’ll be like, “Can I take a moment and I just want you to repeat what you just said?” And then they’ll repeat it and be like, “Oh my God, that’s changed us my whole life.” And yeah, I could have told you that in our first meeting, but you know why I didn’t? Because people don’t actually take the advice you give. Think about all the advice you give- All your mentors.

… day in and day out, all your mentors who are well-meaning and understand what you’re going through because they’ve been there too. Until that thing is your idea, until that light bulb moment goes off in your brain, you are not going to act on

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

It. Yeah, absolutely.

Mary Simon:

So true. So here’s a question for anyone contemplating dipping their toes into the coaching waters. How do you, and I’m sure there’s only one perspective I have, right? It’s a female attorney, mom of two,

That is my lens that I’m looking through and I’m acknowledging that. What would you say to someone who’s weighing, and using me for an example, but I imagine there’s so many other people that are thinking what I’m thinking here is someone who thinks, oh, I can benefit from coaching, but I don’t want it to be viewed as a woo-woo kind of concept, the thought of reflection in an environment where it’s mostly get your shit done, get results, work up your cases. I don’t believe it’s a weakness, but for someone who does have even that, I’m someone who even if I thought it could be viewed as a weakness, that percentage of my brain is so much smaller than the percentage that’s like, “Well, it’s going to benefit me. And if I’m benefiting myself, good things are going to happen for me and for the people around me, whether it’s my family or my colleagues.” But how would you answer that to someone who is posing that in the most practical example, I’m thinking of a male colleague

Kelli Dunaway:

At me saying, “I got this

Mary Simon:

One.” Yes, saying, “You’re doing coat.” I don’t need that. I don’t know why you would do that. I’m fine getting my job done and look and I’m doing this and I’m hitting all my marks and I don’t need that. So however you want to, kind of like a judgment on it. I don’t

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

See response to be. Attorney acting like that.

Kelli Dunaway:

Here’s the answer. Hypothetically- You cannot point to me a professional athlete or a CEO at the top of their game that does not have a slew of coaches on their speed dial and who isn’t meeting with a coach at least once a week because they are dealing with complex challenges that they are smart enough to realize they cannot handle on their own.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Absolutely.

Mary Simon:

Whether or not they identify those individuals as coaches or not.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Right. It does. And who do you need to tell? I mean, I’m working with someone on this, this or this. You don’t even have to talk to anyone about what you’re doing. If you’re asking for funding from your firm, you could talk with your perspective coach about how to frame it in a way that’s going to ROI, whatever people want to hear. But I mean, if you are working with other attorneys who don’t see the value in coaching or training, you just have to figure out, think about if you want to be like that or not. And if you don’t, it kind of doesn’t matter what they say because you’re not trying to be them.

Mary Simon:

And also another thing that I was thinking on that is it’s not so much, because I appreciate the, you don’t owe anyone any explanation for what decisions you want to make, right? But also removing the stigma attached to it opens up the door to it turning into something that you’re not even afraid to talk about to being like, “Oh, you don’t have one? I’m sorry.” Right. To bad love to spin that narrative the other way. It’s like- Your life would be so much better if you did.

Kelli Dunaway:

Yeah, you’re really missing out.

Mary Simon:

Exactly. Exactly.

Elizabeth McNulty:

When lawyers hear the word coach, what do they usually assume and what do you wish they understood instead?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

I mean, I think some people assume like, “Oh boy, they’re sending me to coaching.” Or I’m like, “No, they’re giving you the opportunity to be coached.”

Mary Simon:

It’s

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

A

Mary Simon:

Gift.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

It is. It’s a gift. And I think there are a lot … I think it’s more common now. Maybe that’s just because I’m a coach, but I do think it’s more understood as a benefit and something that could support someone who’s already performing well. But I do think there are the more old school firm leaders who are like, “Oh yeah, okay. Well, we don’t need to spend money on this unless the person’s on their way out the door.” When that’s not the time to really invest in yourself and figure out your next steps because you’re on a clock and that’s not inspiring really open conversation and reflection and change.

Kelli Dunaway:

When I get referred a client from a firm in our very first conversation when I’m talking about this is confidential, the firm may be paying me, but I’m on your side here and I will have to go back to the firm and share themes, but nothing that we talk about will ever come out. I always say, “Your firm would never spend the money that they’re spending on me if they didn’t believe in you and didn’t want you to be successful.”

Mary Simon:

Yeah.

Elizabeth McNulty:

We’re a smaller firm. We don’t have an in- house anyone doing that. Tell us more about what firms bring you in to do or who you usually work with at a firm.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Yeah. So it could be at a smaller firm that doesn’t have a professional development person, HR, or a practice group leader who is in the know about training and coaching opportunities. I think there are a lot more small firms that don’t actually know how to do this, or there isn’t a centralized person that could say, “Oh, do you want coaching?” It’s often something that comes up in performance reviews or year-end discussions about future-looking career progression. And so I think often it’s less supervisor or like a practice group leader kind of person.

Kelli Dunaway:

And my clients range from large global law firms that put me on planes to go deliver coaching and training in person to individuals in solo and small firms. Or I have a lot of women in leadership roles that are really just trying to figure out how to be a great leader, how to be a great lawyer and how to be a great mom and everything to everybody. And some of the smaller firm engagements that we get or that I get are really to come in and deliver just like a lunch and learn or a series over a few months. And then it kind of opens people up to some professional development. We teach things that are important in your leadership journey and how you manage yourself and others. And sometimes that leads to coaching engagements. Or if in a firm like this, I’ll get a call like if you are promoted to office managing partner or become some kind of a group leader, they’ll invest in coaching for you to have support.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

There’s also women’s groups or other affinity groups who will bring us in to facilitate group coaching or a small workshop and individual coaching can come from that. And also from the perspective of someone who used to hire coaches, I mean, of course I was the PD person, so we did have a PD person, but it wasn’t really something that we were doing 10 years ago when I started, or I don’t remember when I started, how long ago it was, but we had money for CLE for attorneys. Most firms are paying some type of something for CLEs. And frankly, the CLEs that people are taking are not necessarily helping them become better attorneys. And so I just kind of started small by saying, “Okay, well, you’re $300 and her $300 and her $300 for this CLE, let’s do a group coaching session for women who are on the brink of becoming partner.”

Mary Simon:

Do you do coaching with, is it individual attorneys or is it like a team at the firm says these five people work together, they could benefit from coaching. It could be more of like a group, like when you said a small group, it could range from attorney, paralegal, assistant that you could be giving guidance to.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Yeah, it could be any, I mean any legal professional, law students, and it could be group, it could be individual. We do all of that kind of coaching. I mean, the individual coaching, there has to be a reason that the cohort is together for it to make sense, but yeah.

Kelli Dunaway:

I do. Cohorts are very powerful. If you have a group of people who are in a situation together, there are some truly powerful insights that come from that peer to peer interaction that’s sort of facilitated by the coach.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

And the situation together can be you’re all women sixth year attorneys. Exactly. At a law firm. And in the same law firm, right? What are you all dealing with that you don’t … I mean, I was thinking about this when you asked the question about coaching and-

Mary Simon:

The

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Perception

Mary Simon:

Or

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Whatever. There are so many things that … I mean, I’m speaking from the perspective of being a woman as well, so I can say so many things as a woman that you don’t talk about because you think there’s something wrong with me or I’m the only one experiencing this or I can’t let anyone know this. And then the minute you start talking about it, imposter syndrome, fertility issues, being held back at work because of whatever. I mean, there’s all sorts of things.

Kelli Dunaway:

Getting a

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Divorce and having a

Kelli Dunaway:

Fifty fifty custody. Sure.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

And then the minute you’re like, “Oh, I’m doing this. ” Then three other people are like, “Oh my God, I feel like that too.” It’s the environment of the law firm. It’s not me. And then the cohort is born.

Mary Simon:

Have you at least seen … Tell me that I should feel really hopeful that you’ve seen- You should. … that you’ve seen a more, what’s the right word, not welcoming, a more encouraging atmosphere across law firms to have coaches?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Yes.

Kelli Dunaway:

Yeah. I actually think it’s because the pandemic showed women we can’t do it all, and that until the system is ready to bend our way, we’re going to have to push back with everything we got. And you know what? You can’t do that on your own. And I think coaching can really help people find their power and then speak their power. And it isn’t just for you, it’s for this broken system that needs to just break the rest of the way.

Mary Simon:

Let me ask you both this. What do you think is the biggest reason why there’s got to be some point where your client gets to where they finally pull the trigger to get a coach? Is there any themes that you can say, and I’ll stick just with female attorneys, what that point of their career that they get to, a reason why they waited for a long time? Because I can imagine anyone who gets a coach immediately thinks, “I should have done this a long t.” Why did I do

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

This before?

Mary Simon:

Yes. Do you think that there’s any a particular thing that prompts that phone call or email or whatever it is?

Kelli Dunaway:

There’s two for me.

Mary Simon:

What do you think?

Kelli Dunaway:

One is that seventh year where their mentor sits them down and says, “Okay, it’s time to get ready for partnership.” And they’re like,

Announcer:

“Whoa.”

Kelli Dunaway:

That’s number one. The second is some caregiving responsibility falls to them out of nowhere. They come back from maternity leave, their mom moves in and they come back from work and everybody expects them to be able to deliver at the same level and there just is no, no way. How can nobody see this? How is this the expectation and the rage is what things do? The

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Rage that makes sense. I mean, it is like once, if we’re talking female attorneys, once they are solidly in a spot that they can no longer pretend like everything’s the same for women and men, they have this, like Kelli said, caregiving responsibility that is just like, there’s something, often it’s thinking there’s something wrong with me because I can’t cut it.

Kelli Dunaway:

But I think it’s the first realization that, oh my God, all these women that for generations before me have said, “This doesn’t work for us. Oh, I get it now.” I get it.

Mary Simon:

And we’ve talked to women too, whether it’s on this podcast or at the Women in Law Symposium where we’ve heard from these women trailblazing attorneys who, I forget who the speaker was at the last one, but I remember her saying something like, “Yeah, all the rooms that you can go to or the forms in which you can complain to an HR person about something to get something changed, those didn’t even exist at that time.” So now it’s kind of like use the resources that are now available- Please

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Use the

Mary Simon:

Resources. … to make change. So that makes total sense. And it is one of those things. And I personally think, and probably a lot of listeners are also thinking that they don’t even have the time … Even as I’m sitting here, I’m like, “You need to block out the time to have a thought process in order to even make the decision to go make the phone call.” And what I’m hearing too is like, “Just do it, just send the initial email to get the process going because nothing’s ever going to stop. The deadlines are never going to stop. The workload’s never going to stop.”

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

There’s no time tomorrow where things are all sorted and you can turn to yourself. And I think that’s the part where you have to trust that you are spending a lot of time spinning your wheels and doing things that are not productive or telling yourself negative things that are holding you back. And if you can eliminate the time wasted doing that and put it into something that’s more positive, then there’s your time right there. I mean, I guarantee we all have some amount of time that we could spend on ourselves.

Mary Simon:

A hundred percent. And it doesn’t have to just be, it’s more than just, “I got to take a shower today.” Right.

Kelli Dunaway:

It’s

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

More important than that. Why since when is self-care that you got to take a shower with no child talking to you?

Mary Simon:

Right. Or go to the bathroom or …

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Right?

Mary Simon:

Yeah.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Yeah.

Mary Simon:

Brush your teeth, make coffee. Now my daughter makes the coffee for me.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Oh, that’s nice.

Mary Simon:

Sweet.That’s fine. How

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Old is your daughter? She

Mary Simon:

Likes to push the buttons and lift the thing out.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

Nice.

Mary Simon:

But I really like the two things that I’m really taking away from this too. And I think that this’ll be a good place for us to cut into a part one, part two is I love this concept of when the rage hits, you pick up that phone because I’m thinking in my head, the rage Hits and I go to my girl group chat who are lawyers. I’m like, “Get this. ” So I’m really loving that concept.

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

You can do it a little before the rage.

Mary Simon:

Yeah, but you know what? But the rage propels

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

You,

Mary Simon:

Right?

Mollie Farrell Khazaeli:

It’s true. I

Mary Simon:

Don’t know a woman who doesn’t go to six group chats before they- So are like, “Maybe I should tap into another group chats. Resource here.”

Elizabeth McNulty:

That’s a great place to pause for today. And part two of this conversation will go deeper into the unexpected ways coaching can help women lawyers move from where they are to where they want to be and how to know if coaching might be right for you. Make sure you subscribe so you don’t miss the rest of this conversation with Mollie Farrell and Kelli Dunaway from Aspire. And as always, if this episode resonated with you, consider sharing it with a colleague or friend who might need to hear it. Thanks for listening to Heals in the Courtroom. We drop new episodes every other Wednesday, and if you have any questions or comments for us, feel free to drop us a line at comments@heels in the courtroom. We’ll see you next time.

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