EP 1016: From TikTok to Trial: Paige Sparks on Building a Legal Brand That Actually Works Part 1

Episode Notes

Transcript

Elizabeth McNulty [00:00:16 – 00:00:58]

Welcome back to Heels in the Courtroom. I’m Elizabeth McNulty, and I’m joined by Sydney Marino and Mary Simon. Today’s guest is someone many of you have probably seen before you ever knew her name. If you spent any time scrolling social media, you’ve likely come across one of her videos explaining employment law, breaking down workplace situations, or answering questions that millions of people have wondered about but never knew who to ask. She’s an employment attorney, law firm owner of Sparks Legal, entrepreneur, and one of the most recognizable legal creators online. But here’s what fascinated us and why we wanted to have this conversation. It’s easy to look at someone with a massive online following and think they just got lucky or had one viral moment. The reality is much different.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:00:59 – 00:01:25]

Behind every viral video is strategy, consistency, creativity, and a willingness to keep showing up long before anyone is watching. As lawyers, we’re trained to write briefs, prepare witnesses, and argue cases. Most of us were never taught how to build a personal brand, market ourselves ethically, or communicate with millions of people in a way that’s both educational, That’s exactly what we’re talking about today. Paige Sparks, welcome to Heels in the Courtroom.

Paige Sparks [00:01:26 – 00:01:28]

That was the nicest intro ever. Thank you so much. I’m flattered.

Mary Simon [00:01:29 – 00:01:30]

We’re so happy you’re here.

Paige Sparks [00:01:30 – 00:01:31]

Thanks for having me.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:01:32 – 00:01:40]

Okay, so a little icebreaker. If someone only knew you from TikTok, what would they completely misunderstand about your career?

Paige Sparks [00:01:40 – 00:02:03]

I love this question because everyone’s always like, doesn’t believe me, but I’m extremely introverted and private, and I like to be that way. So it’s just as hard for me to do a video like for anyone else out there, but a lot of people are like, no way, because I’ll be crazy in a video. And that’s just one of my many personalities, you know? So I think that’s like the biggest thing is I’m, I’m, that’s me, but not all the time.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:02:03 – 00:02:15]

It’s fair. So just kind of starting back at the beginning, because obviously you had a career before you became really popular on the internet. So tell us what originally drew you to employment law and why you went to law school in the first place.

Paige Sparks [00:02:16 – 00:02:21]

So I always thought I wanted to be a prosecutor from Law and Order. I thought that looked like a really fun life, you know?

Mary Simon [00:02:22 – 00:02:22]

I wanted to be—

Paige Sparks [00:02:23 – 00:02:30]

Yeah, still, like, sign me up. But I also realized I wanted to be Olivia Benson and not the prosecutor, but I didn’t actually want to be Olivia Benson, you know?

Mary Simon [00:02:30 – 00:02:30]

Sure.

Paige Sparks [00:02:31 – 00:02:59]

So once I shadowed a prosecutor and found out that’s not what it’s like, I’m like, I don’t want to do that. And so then I went to law school and I, I really did not know what I wanted to do. I was working at a family law firm in Illinois and I had a conflict there after working. I flew under the radar for a long time in a very hostile environment until one day I didn’t. And I can’t control my tongue sometimes. And so I, I like to match energy and the partner, the owner didn’t like that. And I got fired within 5 minutes.

Sydney Marino [00:03:00 – 00:03:00]

Wow.

Paige Sparks [00:03:00 – 00:03:21]

So then I was like, what am I going to do? Because it’s my 2L and it was after the interviews and everything. So I’m like, what the hell am I going to do? So I applied everywhere, anywhere on Indeed, whether it was like a janitor, a lawyer, a paralegal, what I was like, please just give me a chance. I sent out so many because that was my job when I was unemployed, I thought. So I got a bunch of responses back and there was one and most of them were like, can you read?

Mary Simon [00:03:21 – 00:03:22]

This was her.

Paige Sparks [00:03:22 – 00:03:41]

lawyer posting and you’re a clerk. And I’m like, thank you for the opportunity, you know, like trying to be nice. And then one of them, 2 of them responded. One was an unpaid internship. And I’m like, nah, I need money. Like, I have expensive habits, horseback riding at the time. So I was like, nah, I need money. And so then I was like, well, maybe I could work other jobs and do that.

Paige Sparks [00:03:41 – 00:03:54]

So I have something to fill my resume. And then someone else responded and they were kind of talking to themselves in the email like, well, we don’t need this, but maybe we do because we have this big federal case we need to discuss. Do you like discovery? I was like, I love discovery. Nobody loves Discovery.

Sydney Marino [00:03:54 – 00:03:55]

Yeah, no.

Paige Sparks [00:03:55 – 00:04:16]

I love Discovery. You know that clip on the internet that’s like Michael Jackson where he’s doing an interview tour and he’s like, I hate touring, and they’re like, don’t do that, everyone will think it’s negative, they won’t come, come on, Michael. And he’s like, all right, all right, and he goes, I love to tour. That’s how I feel about Discovery, but I was like, I love this, that’s my favorite, that’s my jam, man, I’m the best at Discovery.

Mary Simon [00:04:16 – 00:04:17]

He’s sweet about Discovery.

Paige Sparks [00:04:17 – 00:04:47]

Yes, that’s all I wanna do, actually. And so then I got hired and it was like a really sexy, sex discrimination retaliation employment case. And I was like, this is, this is what I want to do. It all just clicked. It’s like a formula, you know? So I’m like, wow, I, I want to do this area. So I did not get to do that only for a long time. I had to do a little bit of everything, which I hated doing, like criminal defense, things like that. And then when I went out on my own is when I was like, no, only employment law from now on.

Paige Sparks [00:04:47 – 00:04:49]

Maybe like a ticket here or there for a friend or someone, but—

Elizabeth McNulty [00:04:49 – 00:04:49]

Yeah.

Paige Sparks [00:04:50 – 00:05:21]

Uh, that’s why I just started niche down and doing only employment law. One of my really good friends, uh, she’s a local famous makeup artist, Joy Loveless. She’s like, you need to niche down and be like the McDonald’s. Like do one thing really, really well. Quit trying to do all this other stuff. Niche down. And ever since then, it has been not only less stressful, but you get better at it when you can really hone your craft on one area instead of trying to be a jack of all trades. So that’s how I got started in employment law and only the plaintiff’s side, which is That’s really excellent advice that you got, and especially so kind of early in your career.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:05:21 – 00:05:35]

I feel like a lot of people, or a lot of lawyers, kind of try to figure out what they want to do, and it takes them a long time, so it’s awesome that you got to figure that out kind of early on in your career. Did you always know that you wanted to start your own firm and be an entrepreneur? Was that part of the plan?

Paige Sparks [00:05:35 – 00:06:00]

No, never. It’s still not in my plan. Like, I feel like I’ve kind of was taken hostage to the needs of what I wanted to do, and that’s the only way I could do it. Um, so I never wanted to be an entrepreneur. I never expected to own a business. Uh, I still don’t kind of want to, like, I’d rather just do my own thing. And like, I wish there was someone else that could be like, hey, the website’s down, or, you know, like, it’s just, it’s been a lot. It’s been a big learning curve for me.

Paige Sparks [00:06:00 – 00:06:27]

And I’m not, I’m like a first-generation lawyer and business owner. Like, there’s no one really on my side. So everything’s, thank God I have friends that are like, do this, don’t do this, or like referrals and recommendations and stuff like that. But no, I never thought I wanted to do it. Pretty much everything I do is, is because I was told no, though. So like, I was told no enough when I was at a firm. And I don’t like being told no. I really, really don’t like being told no if I’m excited and I worked hard on something.

Paige Sparks [00:06:27 – 00:06:48]

And so that’s why I was like, you know what, I don’t want to be told what to do anymore. I don’t want to be told no. And so I started a law firm with my sister-in-law, which unfortunately didn’t work out. And then I went on my own again. So I feel like I have like a double whammy. Entrepreneur, like, I feel like I’ve been through the fire now. So the beauty of it is, is when you’re a little dead inside, you don’t care anymore about like the stressful stuff. It’s like, right, something bad will happen now.

Paige Sparks [00:06:48 – 00:06:58]

And I’m like, all right, add it to my to-do list, like whatever. That’s kind of where you need to be when you’re a woman business owner. Otherwise the sky’s falling and you then you don’t get your work done.

Sydney Marino [00:06:58 – 00:06:58]

Right.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:06:59 – 00:07:07]

Do you think sometimes lawyers wait for the confidence to come when sometimes they just need to take that big risk? Or like, it sounds like you were kind of just like pushed into it.

Sydney Marino [00:07:08 – 00:07:08]

Yes.

Paige Sparks [00:07:08 – 00:07:41]

Yes, the confidence doesn’t come, you have to make it, you have to fake it until you make it. That’s what everybody does. That’s what I still do every day. You know, I do think doing videos, and there’s something to be said about like your brain rewires when you do hard things, and you survive it, and you accomplish it, especially if you do it well. And you’re like, wow, I— that actually didn’t fail. And so doing those things, you build your confidence as you go. And I think doing the videos has really given me kind of a superpower for that. Like, I wouldn’t have been able to do my first trial as well if I wasn’t good at speaking from the videos.

Paige Sparks [00:07:41 – 00:08:14]

I literally took my— our first trial and made it a 1-day TikTok where I’m like, here’s the hook, here’s the intro, here’s this thing. And then it’s like the same psychology and the talking points. And so you don’t have the confidence until you do it, and then you kind of build it. But no, it’s never going to come. Like, I do a lot of speaking events trying to encourage lawyers to do videos, like the CLEs and things. And no, you’re never going to wake up one morning and be like, all right, I’m going to start this really successful channel. You wake up and you’re like, okay, I’m going to talk to my 5 people. And those 5 people will share with their 5 people.

Paige Sparks [00:08:15 – 00:08:28]

And one day, maybe I’ll have 20 people. And that’s kind of what you want, though. You want to, you want to slow burn like that. But one day, you will wake up a year from now and be like, wow, I’m actually more confident now. And I’m, and I’m not freaking out when I get a hate comment or something, you know.

Mary Simon [00:08:29 – 00:09:16]

Do you think that the reason why some attorneys would be hesitant about doing videos on social media and stuff is because of the perception of attorneys in a quote-unquote professional setting to do videos? Because like in my head, that’s probably— that’s one of the factors. Like I could list off more that I think about, but it is a— because I think that’s where everything’s headed, right? I mean, that’s where everyone gets their content. That’s where a certain percentage of everyone gets the news. is through social media outlets. So I think that there’s generational differences in that comfortability. But like, what, for sure, what do you think, just going to like CLEs when you’re encouraging people to do that, and there’s not an immediate like, oh yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, we’re gonna go back and start making TikToks or Instagram Reels or whatever. Like, what, what is your take on why people might have that?

Paige Sparks [00:09:16 – 00:09:40]

I’m so glad you said it that way. Because a lot of people will be so excited. I want to inspire them, we’ll do this, and they sit and they record. And that’s when the perception part comes in and you’re like, oh no, someone’s going to see this. Do I really want to say it? What am I, what do I look like? What do I sound like? What if I’m wrong? And lawyers are like, we’re the most insecure people. We’re afraid of being wrong. We’re afraid of being challenged. Like, it’s a scary thing to put yourself out there and be vulnerable like that.

Paige Sparks [00:09:40 – 00:09:52]

So the fear of being perceived is very real, but I like money, so I can just overlook that because I like the money when certain people who have a case I want perceive me to be knowledgeable, you know?

Elizabeth McNulty [00:09:52 – 00:09:52]

Right, right.

Paige Sparks [00:09:52 – 00:10:19]

So it really gets to come to like, I think like a push and pull of like, What are you more afraid of, of being perceived and viewed, which is kind of what we want anyway, if you boil it down, we all want that, but you have to put in the work to get to that point. I do think that most lawyers are afraid of being perceived, and that’s kind of a joke in the creator community, like with my other TikTok lawyer friends or things like that. Like we are also, we’re like, please consume my content and engage with me, but don’t perceive me. And that’s just not how it works though.

Sydney Marino [00:10:19 – 00:10:19]

Right.

Paige Sparks [00:10:19 – 00:10:35]

It goes hand in hand, but I do think that scares a lot of people. You have to get over it. There’s no easy fix. There’s no solution. Just start doing it. And each one you do gets a little bit easier. And if you take a break, you got to start over again. But like, you just got to keep going, push through it.

Mary Simon [00:10:35 – 00:11:17]

Yeah. And it kind of reminds me of like, it’s kind of a similar algorithm of when you’re doing marketing efforts, and you’re kind of casting a broad net for a certain type of case or something. And you know, 90% of the ones you get aren’t going to be the one that you want. But then when you, when you do that and you do get the 1 to 5 cases that, that really hit the mark, you know the effort was worth it, right? So it’s kind of a similar— not just from— I’m saying like for that particular type of marketing. I think there’s risk to every type of marketing, and every person who is a firm leader who has started their own firm has that sort of taste for risk or the ability to absorb risk in a way.

Paige Sparks [00:11:17 – 00:11:18]

Yeah, being uncomfortable.

Mary Simon [00:11:18 – 00:11:18]

Yeah.

Paige Sparks [00:11:18 – 00:11:19]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:11:19 – 00:11:48]

And it’s just interesting because I even think that some of the attorneys, anytime they’re going to go out and be like, I think this is a way to market, they’re looking at cost-effectiveness, risk analysis, and something that doesn’t go into a traditional— I’m using traditional in air quotes, but in a traditional sense of like, hey, let’s put a bunch of funding into this certain campaign to get this type of cases. Maybe the risk looks a little bit different. But you’re just being like, the risk is me. Like I’m putting my face out there for people to see.

Paige Sparks [00:11:48 – 00:11:48]

You’re betting on yourself.

Mary Simon [00:11:49 – 00:11:59]

Yeah. And you’re like, yeah, and maybe some people won’t like the video or might scroll past, but hey, if it lands on the one person who needs my help and we’re a good fit, it was 100% worth the people who scrolled.

Paige Sparks [00:11:59 – 00:12:24]

Right. So that’s actually what happened to me. My fir— when I started my law firm with my sister-in-law and I was doing videos and nothing had really popped off really yet. I mean, like maybe some viral videos here and there, but no case like that. So yeah, I was still waiting for that payoff. And then someone who got fired while on FMLA contacted me and 6 months later we settled it for $150,000. And I was like, I will keep doing videos. But that was the only way I could level the playing field.

Paige Sparks [00:12:24 – 00:13:05]

Like I was a nobody before I started doing videos and trying to make my name out there and brand myself. So that was the only way I could compete with like some of these bigger law firms. I’m not going to get a billboard. I can’t afford commercial airtime and nor do I want to because things are so changed. They’re changing. So this really leveled the playing field. If you could look at the risk part less and look at it like more like this is how you can stay competitive and it’s actually an advantage that you can lean into it because these big law firms, which not, I won’t name ’em because I don’t wanna talk badly, maybe off there, but these big law firms will pump all this money into all this old tradi— like you said, traditional marketing. And I can make one video and clean house and I did it at no cost other than my time.

Mary Simon [00:13:06 – 00:13:06]

Right.

Paige Sparks [00:13:06 – 00:13:33]

You know, so it really leveled the playing field for me, not only for bringing in cases, but defense attorneys too. These big defense firms are scared. They’re terrified of being in a video. They’re terrified. The clients I’ve, I’ve been paid to take down videos, they’re terrified of the videos. So it’s really a competitive edge that a lot of people don’t understand until they’re in the thick of it. And you’re like, wow, this is pretty cool. What do you mean so-and-so from this big firm is calling me saying, don’t do another TikTok about me.

Paige Sparks [00:13:33 – 00:13:35]

And then I set it up and recorded another one.

Mary Simon [00:13:35 – 00:13:36]

Right.

Sydney Marino [00:13:36 – 00:13:50]

I guess that was my question. Like, how do you battle the perception that you get from other attorneys and even like judges, maybe now having been in trials and in front of judges? Like, is that something that you have to deal with like on a day-to-day? Yeah. I just find that so fascinating.

Paige Sparks [00:13:50 – 00:14:18]

I’m not gonna lie, it’s scary. Every time I do something a little risky like that, I’m like, oh, did I just push it a little too far? Like, for example, I used to do, a couple years ago, I used to do a series cuz my followers really liked it. Called Stupid Dummy of the Week, and I would talk about it. And I’m like, you know, that’s not really nice. That’s probably not that ethical when I, we look at our rules. And so I stopped that and I don’t call it anymore. So I, I do refine and like pivot. And, and when, and this is what I do, I’ll make a video, maybe it’s a little spicy, maybe it’s talking about, I don’t talk about judges.

Paige Sparks [00:14:19 – 00:14:41]

I only talk about opposing counsel or like what I observe in court. And maybe it’s a little spicy, but you just gotta put it out in the world, engage with it a little bit. And that’s that. And I try not to think about it, but yeah, I mean, I’m not gonna lie. Like there are some that I’m like, oh, maybe I was pushing it a little bit, but you have to just not care. Like, I don’t care what other people think of me. I don’t care what other lawyers think of me. They don’t pay my bills.

Paige Sparks [00:14:41 – 00:15:19]

And a lot of people that do think bad things, then fast forward, I, everyone tells me everything, by the way. Like different lawyers run to me, oh, so-and-so at this firm is talking badly about you for doing this. I don’t care. Because it makes me money. And then I know everything, like things behind the scenes like that. And then like 6 months later, they’re, they’re emailing me asking me, how can we make videos? Can we help? And so it’s just kind of ironic cuz I’m like, oh yeah, you, you, uh, like them now, huh? But I just have to not care. I will say it’s weird when I go to like federal court especially, and one of the judges will be like, I saw you did a video on donuts the other day. And I’m like, oh, I forget.

Paige Sparks [00:15:19 – 00:15:20]

they watch this.

Mary Simon [00:15:20 – 00:15:21]

Yeah.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:15:21 – 00:15:21]

You know?

Sydney Marino [00:15:21 – 00:15:22]

That’s hysterical.

Paige Sparks [00:15:22 – 00:15:35]

It kind of— it’s because I’m like, oh, that’s my little like fun world. What are you talking about, judge? But yeah, you just have to not care. And it’s— and it’s again, that’s just going through the motions and repetition of doing it. Eventually you will get there.

Mary Simon [00:15:35 – 00:15:49]

It kind of reminds me of Cardi B. Have you guys seen when she’s like accepting— when she’s like up accepting an award on stage and she’s like, and this is to all the people who love me, but all the people who hate me, she’s like, you guys keep downloading my videos and it’s making me a ton of money.

Paige Sparks [00:15:49 – 00:16:05]

So like, love you guys. Literally, have the Cardi energy. Because that’s when people would share them and make fun of me I knew at the beginning. And it was the same thing. I’m like, you are helping me. The more you hate on me, it’s like exposure. Yeah, thank you. You’re my biggest fan.

Paige Sparks [00:16:05 – 00:16:26]

There’s actually a local lawyer who used to be at a big firm, and he’s like doing all this pro se crazy stuff, and he’s my biggest fan. He’s my biggest hater, my biggest fan. Thank you for the engagement. Yeah, you know, right, right. It’s, it’s— if you can look at it as a positive way, like, that’s engagement people pay for. And if you can just get that on the internet, and it’s great. But yeah, have the Cardi B energy. Be like, thank you to my haters.

Mary Simon [00:16:26 – 00:16:27]

Yeah, exactly.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:16:27 – 00:16:41]

I love that. I think that’s great advice for anyone, even if you don’t want to put out content on the internet. But was there one— you talked about going viral. Was there one moment where everything, like, that you felt it change? Or yeah, did it happen overnight?

Paige Sparks [00:16:42 – 00:17:06]

Yeah. So, and that was terrifying because I— that was the first time it happened. And I’m like, I don’t know what’s happening. So I do informational only videos to comply with our rules with ethics. I never, I never give legal advice. I specify that. But back during the pandemic, really popular employment rights videos where I would just kind of talk about like, okay, I’ll do the 10 most common employment law myths. Like your employer can’t terminate you for talking about your pay at work.

Paige Sparks [00:17:06 – 00:17:14]

And then I was doing a makeup routine because that was really big during the pandemic. I used to do makeup for weddings, like makeup artist stuff. And I, I, it was like 2 of my worlds combined.

Mary Simon [00:17:14 – 00:17:14]

Okay.

Paige Sparks [00:17:14 – 00:17:38]

Like I just enjoy it. And at the time, they would get maybe 5,000 views a video. So it wasn’t that scary. Like, it’s still a very intimate thing to be putting on your makeup in front of people, but it wasn’t that scary. So anyone who’s interested in doing their own content, this is a life lesson. This almost was a draft. This almost didn’t happen. I almost didn’t push, push, post because I’m like, oh, the makeup didn’t turn out that well.

Paige Sparks [00:17:38 – 00:17:42]

It wasn’t the best editing. It wasn’t perfect. Like perfection. What’s that phrase? Perfectionism will kill.

Mary Simon [00:17:43 – 00:17:48]

It’s like, it’s like, it’s like good is the enemy of perfection or something like that. Or perfection is the enemy of—

Paige Sparks [00:17:48 – 00:17:49]

Yes. Yeah.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:17:49 – 00:17:50]

Because then you don’t—

Mary Simon [00:17:50 – 00:17:50]

something like that.

Paige Sparks [00:17:50 – 00:17:53]

You don’t post it if you’re waiting on the, it to be perfect.

Mary Simon [00:17:53 – 00:17:54]

Yeah. Yeah.

Paige Sparks [00:17:54 – 00:18:10]

It’ll never be perfect. So I almost didn’t post it. We were getting ready to go on a New Orleans trip for my 30th birthday and a, a road trip. And I po— I did it. I, I didn’t really love it. I posted it. I got an awful migraine on the way down to New Orleans, like puking and dying for 10 hours. Wasn’t on my phone, wasn’t doing anything.

Paige Sparks [00:18:10 – 00:18:25]

I just wanted to die. I mean, we were like pulling over every other exit so I could puke. That’s so worse. Yeah, it was terrible. So all that to say, I wasn’t even thinking about this. So I’m dying. I go to bed that night. And this is unusual for me because usually I’m monitoring everything because I do all my own content.

Paige Sparks [00:18:25 – 00:18:37]

So I’m monitoring everything all the time. And I’m like, so I’m dying. I can’t do it. So I wake up the next morning and one of the— my makeup video that I almost didn’t post had 30 million views. And I was— yeah, that was my reaction too.

Sydney Marino [00:18:37 – 00:18:37]

What?

Paige Sparks [00:18:38 – 00:19:03]

And I’m like, wow, not only have 30 million people watched me do my makeup in this like intimate thing, They were— we couldn’t even keep up with the emails and calls, you guys. Like, we had to create a new form to pull people in and like sort through stuff. It was people across the country. It was like maybe 5 people from Missouri or St. Louis, like really not that much. And it just blew up. And so all that to say, it almost was a draft that almost didn’t happen. So always post your draft.

Paige Sparks [00:19:03 – 00:19:09]

Please, if you take nothing else away from this, post your freaking drafts because someone out there needs to hear what you have to say and it’ll resonate.

Mary Simon [00:19:10 – 00:19:10]

Yeah.

Paige Sparks [00:19:10 – 00:19:24]

And you don’t need, you don’t need a viral moment though. You kind of don’t want them. That’s what a lot of people think. Like, I just need to pop off. You don’t, because when that happens, you get exposed to this whole new audience that doesn’t know you. They don’t know how you do things. They don’t know how to act right. You know, because they don’t see how you engage.

Paige Sparks [00:19:24 – 00:19:26]

So when that happens—

Mary Simon [00:19:26 – 00:19:28]

And then you’re responding, you’re trying to like respond, right?

Sydney Marino [00:19:29 – 00:19:29]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:19:29 – 00:19:31]

Yeah. Like to keep the engagement up like quickly.

Paige Sparks [00:19:31 – 00:19:32]

Right, right.

Mary Simon [00:19:32 – 00:19:32]

Yeah.

Paige Sparks [00:19:32 – 00:19:59]

But you don’t, but it doesn’t matter because I just need that one person. I just need that one 6-figure case that wants my help. Right. Instead of the third trying to please the masses of the 30 million. I’m never going to do that. So that was a balancing thing too, where I was trying to recreate that. And then I would get all these really psycho people because whenever you open the floodgates and that happens, you just— nobody knows you and you’re not a real person on the internet to them. But yeah, so you don’t actually want to go viral, especially regularly.

Paige Sparks [00:19:59 – 00:20:07]

It’s terrifying. It’s exhausting. You want like your happy audience and like your people that are always there showing up. That’s who you should always be talking to.

Mary Simon [00:20:07 – 00:20:07]

Yeah.

Paige Sparks [00:20:07 – 00:20:21]

If it pops off, great. But like, Talk to your VIPs. Don’t make content for the purpose of going viral because you actually don’t want to. Take my word. Anyone who’s listening who goes viral will be like, oh yeah, she said this would suck. It does. But it’s like a cycle.

Mary Simon [00:20:22 – 00:20:22]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:20:23 – 00:20:37]

How soon after that then, I guess, did you start to kind of form that VIP audience? Because now you have over a million followers. So was a lot of those people just from those viral moments or did you kind of build your audience then after that?

Paige Sparks [00:20:38 – 00:20:54]

Uh, I don’t— so if we look at the analytics, most of my audience was built every time I had a spike of like a viral video. I would get a chunk of followers, then some would kind of fall off because they would only follow me because they thought they wanted makeup advice, and then they’re like, oh, she actually talks about law.

Mary Simon [00:20:54 – 00:20:58]

And like, I’ve done that with people before where I followed them and I’m like, this isn’t what I thought I was buying.

Paige Sparks [00:20:58 – 00:21:26]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you will have that kind of flux like that. I will say now my group, especially on TikTok, and especially on Instagram, they’re all kind of the VIPs. So sometimes now, like, we all have our inside jokes. Like Oniongate 2026 is going on right now. And like my VIP people know how we want people to be treated. Like there are rules if you want to play in my playground in the comments. And they will go fight people and stuff like the VIPs know they’re the VIPs because they know how we do stuff.

Paige Sparks [00:21:27 – 00:21:50]

But that happens whenever I get a new audience. And then we kind of have to like retrain these people. No, we don’t use like slurs here. We don’t talk like like that here. Like, this is a plaintiff-friendly area. And so there’s kind of like this ebb and flow all the time, and not everyone sees every video. So I try to always talk to my OG VIPs, and then if, if you want to join, great. But like, this is my little group, and, and that also makes it less intimidating.

Paige Sparks [00:21:50 – 00:21:58]

Yeah, when I sit there and I think I’m talking in my room with 20 people instead of 2 million plus, it makes it a little less intimidating too.

Sydney Marino [00:21:58 – 00:22:14]

I was gonna say, that’s like very cool because that’s all I follow a lot of like podcasts. I listen to like The Toast and Giggly Squad, and they have their little group of And they only talk— like, you’re only talking to those people that listen, even though there’s probably millions of people listening that this is their first time. So that’s so interesting.

Paige Sparks [00:22:14 – 00:22:25]

It helps keep it more genuine and authentic too, instead of being like— like, if I was thinking I’m going to talk to, to 2 million people or 30 million when that video went up, I, I would have been terrified.

Sydney Marino [00:22:25 – 00:22:26]

Yeah.

Paige Sparks [00:22:26 – 00:22:35]

When I first started, I was like, I’m gonna pretend I’m FaceTiming my best friend, and that’s how I started talking. And so then it— now then it went to 20 people. And so, yeah, but I still try to think of it as my little—

Sydney Marino [00:22:35 – 00:22:50]

Well, that keeps it genuine too, and It’s like more personable that way, especially with the kind of like topics that you’re discussing and the audience that you’re engaging with. I feel like that’s really great for like in this field too. So, I don’t know.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:22:51 – 00:22:51]

Yes.

Paige Sparks [00:22:51 – 00:23:01]

Yes. I love it whenever I’m like, also for all of us trial attorneys listening, you know how cool it is when we’re doing voir dire and they’re like, does anyone know her stuff off the internet? And people like a room.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:23:02 – 00:23:02]

Yeah.

Paige Sparks [00:23:02 – 00:23:32]

And I’m like, and so, so, so cool because you know how they can like contaminate each other in that. Yeah. So now, now the people that don’t know me, still now they’re forming their opinion of like, wow, she must do what— I don’t know what they’re thinking. But it’s cool. You know, it has so many benefits, especially outweighing the scary part. But yeah, it’s like little things like that. I would have been terrified to talk to— I’m like, oh, these people know me? They saw me eat ice cream in my car the other day and like be crazy? You know, but that’s what people like. And it’s genuine.

Paige Sparks [00:23:32 – 00:23:39]

And I try to make it friendly like that. Like if you’re one of my girlfriends and I’m like, hey, look at this ice cream I got. That’s the same vibe I put in the video.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:23:40 – 00:23:48]

I think one thing that’s really admirable about what you’ve done is it’s been so sustainable. Like you weren’t just a flash in the pan. You were able to like really build something.

Paige Sparks [00:23:48 – 00:23:49]

I like that.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:23:49 – 00:24:02]

Um, that benefited your, not just your content creation, but also created a business for you. How intentional has that been as far as like strategy and like content creation? How intentional have you been in doing that?

Paige Sparks [00:24:03 – 00:24:36]

100% intentional. And, and if it looks easy, that means it’s working because it’s not. And as you know, but I like how you said a flash in the pan, cuz that happens and a lot of people get burned out and they don’t maintain it because it’s not gonna take off right away. You have to do a lot of time before you’ll get a little payoff and it’s kind of like gambling. Then you chase that high and it’s hard to get that again. So, um, 2 things. It may, once I saw this, the cases I was getting and the edge it gave me in the legal world, that’s enough for me to do it on its own, period. Like I, if I didn’t get paid for content, if I didn’t get whatever.

Paige Sparks [00:24:37 – 00:25:04]

That’s enough on its own for me because that gave me that edge that I was always looking for. And it kind of helped me play on this level playing field with the big dogs. So the perk of it is like some of the content is paid or I get a lot of cool opportunities. And I’ll be honest, that’s a little bit of an ego stroke. Like when Kail Lowry from Teen Mom was like, do you want to be on my podcast and talk about being a lawyer? I was like, hell yeah, I want to be on your podcast. Like there’s the cool part plus the benefit of the work part. It’s really, it’s beautiful. But it’s all intentional.

Paige Sparks [00:25:05 – 00:25:14]

I don’t want to do a video every day. I pump out a lot of videos, I pump out a lot of content, because I feel like I’m at gunpoint, like I have to, you have to maintain it, you know.

Mary Simon [00:25:14 – 00:25:14]

Sure.

Paige Sparks [00:25:14 – 00:25:51]

So, and then also, like we mentioned at the top of this, if I take a week off for vacation, and I sit down to record, I have to go through that whole same thing of like talking myself up to do it again. It feels really vulnerable and scary again. And so I try to be really consistent. Now I treat content like the extra job where I’m like, I have to post a video a day, like a, like a good detailed video a day. And then I only do that during the week most of the time. And that’s how I can manage it. When I was wanting to pop off, like during the pandemic, and I didn’t have a full caseload and I needed it, I was posting 3 to 5 videos a day. And that’s what grew so fast.

Paige Sparks [00:25:51 – 00:26:21]

But I mean, that’s part of why it blew up. I’m not recommending everyone do that because you have to do what you’ll maintain eventually. So now I’ve kind of found like 4 to 5 videos a week I can commit to and maintain, especially since I’m doing it alone. Like all the ideas, all the— but it’s all psychology. So it is all intentional. Like anything I show is because I wanted to reveal that or I wanted to talk about that. Or like the ice cream post I mentioned that I did the other day, like that’s the fun side. And it’s part of this like not abusive cycle with my friend followers, but it’s like, we’ll do fun stuff too.

Paige Sparks [00:26:21 – 00:26:27]

It’s not all just like, let’s go fight the system. You know, so, but it all is intentional. Every word.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:26:28 – 00:26:32]

How long does it take you to put together like a video that you post in a day?

Paige Sparks [00:26:32 – 00:26:59]

The average video, depending on what the topic is, if it’s just a legal topic, like you have these rights at work, since I know that, probably 20 minutes from start to finish, including recording, editing, putting text on it, captions on it, posting, screen recording, posting everywhere, probably 20 to 30 minutes total for a video like that. And that’s usually like a 1-minute Less than 2 for sure, but usually like a minute, minute and a half video. If it’s gonna be more detailed, especially if I’m gonna be talking shit, I need to make sure I have my facts straight.

Sydney Marino [00:26:59 – 00:26:59]

Yeah.

Paige Sparks [00:26:59 – 00:27:01]

I mean, sometimes 2 hours.

Sydney Marino [00:27:01 – 00:27:01]

Wow.

Paige Sparks [00:27:01 – 00:27:17]

Or if it’s a series, like when I did the Pamela Hub series, I mean that, I can’t even tell you how many hours that took because it was so detailed. So if it, if I have to research it, it obviously takes a lot longer. But when it’s just information like legal informational rights about employment law, probably 20 to 30 minutes.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:27:18 – 00:27:19]

How do you come up with your ideas?

Paige Sparks [00:27:20 – 00:27:44]

Well, I try to give people what they want. So that’s what a lot of people do. I like it. I try to give the people what they want. You know, this is the show. You can make requests. I wanted to be like, what’s Total Request Live? That’s me. Like, Colin, what do you want to hear about today? So that’s another reason how a lot of my videos popped off is because very early on I started letting the content create itself by doing Q&As, like an informal Q&A where I would only respond to a comment.

Paige Sparks [00:27:44 – 00:28:34]

I don’t know if you’ve ever had a comment responded to by someone you thought was cool on the internet. I have, and it is freaking cool when someone uses your comment to respond and like memorializes it. So I was like, I want to recreate that for people who maybe feel that way about me or what we do. And so it’s like killing two birds with one stone because then people started commenting more once they saw that I would always respond to a comment pretty much. Then they were commenting more and it helped my engagement because they were wanting to be picked for the next comment. And then they started even catering their comments to what I think they thought I would want so that they could be picked too. So I kind of let the, the content create itself by answering these questions because just like our clients or our prospective or potential clients or our ideal client, they have these basic questions and they’re not the only one with that question. So if I answer one person’s question, 40 other people are like, I was interested in that too.

Paige Sparks [00:28:34 – 00:28:41]

I think I do have a case. And so it really benefited to let it do it that way. I try to carry, I try to cover current topics that are interesting to me.

Mary Simon [00:28:41 – 00:28:41]

Mm-hmm.

Paige Sparks [00:28:42 – 00:28:54]

Um, like pop culture stuff, like the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni lawsuit, things like that. People like to hear things like that. But otherwise, I would say 80%, if not more, is just me answering questions. And I’m like, what do you want to hear about next? Let me know.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:28:55 – 00:28:58]

So you’re still practicing law while creating content?

Paige Sparks [00:28:58 – 00:28:59]

Yes. Isn’t that crazy?

Elizabeth McNulty [00:28:59 – 00:29:10]

Yeah. I don’t know how you find the time to do it at all. But how do you balance being educational without crossing an ethical line or giving legal advice specific to someone’s situation?

Paige Sparks [00:29:11 – 00:29:51]

So I was terrified of that when I started, and I haven’t informal opinion from Missouri Bar Ethics that says it’s kind of the equivalent of a legal blog. As long as you have the proper disclaimer, if you are giving legal advice, then it’s the equivalent of a legal blog. So in my videos though, I never say like, you should do this, you should go whatever. I use you for the hook, for the psychology, and maybe, maybe reference a few times throughout the video. But usually I’m talking about public information that’s already out there, like a case when I’m, when I’m saying like, this is what already happened. So that’s like a safe zone for me. Or I’m— or I just generally am talking to you, I put the disclaimer on each video, informational only, not legal advice. I put it in the caption, and I pin it as the first comment as well.

Paige Sparks [00:29:52 – 00:30:08]

So that’s how I try to do it. I don’t ever solicit. I never say call me. If you do that, you obviously have to add additional disclaimer. And I think that kind of takes people out too far from the parasocial thing. So I’m never going to solicit and say call me. And in fact, you don’t have to. If someone wants to find you, they will, and they do.

Paige Sparks [00:30:09 – 00:30:35]

So I just push out general information. I believe in always working smarter, not harder. So what I do is I’ll take the Missouri Supreme Court rulings from that month and I just be like, here’s what they talked about. And then I’m just reading public information a lot of the time. Or if it’s like, you have these rights at work, I’ll just generally talk about them. I will never say, write your complaint just like this and say this, where I think it would cross over into— potentially legal advice, right?

Elizabeth McNulty [00:30:36 – 00:30:44]

That’s really smart. I think that that’s probably something that really freaks out most people from like not wanting to do this because it sounds—

Paige Sparks [00:30:44 – 00:30:55]

I don’t know, it’s terrifying, stressful. And let me tell you this, if you do something wrong, they will let you know. They’ll smack you in the hand and say, don’t do that again. And you say, I’m very sorry, I won’t. And then you move on. It’s like not the end of the world if something does happen.

Mary Simon [00:30:55 – 00:31:18]

I mean, I agree, Elizabeth. I was thinking the same thing, but it’s also just like I think as time goes on, you gain more confidence in, in that, just like in your practice. Because like, I, I feel like I was even scared to talk more to anyone, whether it was someone at the courthouse, even the clients, like in your first like year to 2 years. Like, you’re always just like, let me quadruple check the case law.

Paige Sparks [00:31:18 – 00:31:18]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:31:18 – 00:31:38]

And then like really see if I’m getting the quote. And then if I’m, if I am quoting, make sure I put the quotes and then I say who it, and then I, you know, we all know lawyers who’ve been practicing 20, 30, 40 years. And, you know, sometimes I’m in conversations with other people and they’ll say something, even in a social setting. And in my head I’m like, I don’t know if that’s—

Sydney Marino [00:31:38 – 00:31:39]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:31:39 – 00:31:40]

Like, that’s not—

Paige Sparks [00:31:40 – 00:31:42]

But you don’t call them out. Make sure you tell them it’s not legal advice.

Mary Simon [00:31:42 – 00:31:45]

Yeah, exactly. I’m like, oh, but I didn’t say it. He only said it.

Sydney Marino [00:31:45 – 00:31:45]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:31:45 – 00:31:58]

Like, you know what I mean? So I do see that part of it. But then there has to be some middle ground where it’s like, it’s not the major extremes of someone who’s been practicing for 50 years saying what they did for 50 years.

Paige Sparks [00:31:58 – 00:31:58]

And my day.

Sydney Marino [00:31:58 – 00:31:59]

Because you know that has changed. Right, exactly.

Mary Simon [00:32:01 – 00:32:45]

But then there’s this middle ground of like, hey, because again, there’s so much— we’re just in a different, we’re just in a different space with content. We are pumped with content all day, every day. It’s notifications from 100 different apps, like 100 different ways. So it’s like a blip in time of what a court said at a certain time, and you’re letting people know what that said. It’s just like, yeah, I don’t know, as a non-lawyer, Like, I would want to know generally that information, even if the attorney was like, hey, this is what it says right now. Things are changing. But hey, if right now you’re watching this and you experience X, Y, and Z, these are the things that I’d keep in mind. It’s like, yeah, that’s just educating the public about things that it’s like the alternative is you’re not doing that.

Mary Simon [00:32:45 – 00:32:46]

And it’s like, then what are we doing?

Paige Sparks [00:32:46 – 00:33:04]

And they already think it’s mystified and stacked against everyone. You know what I mean? I think doing that is better, but that’s definitely the weight of that prevents a lot of people from doing it because it’s very vulnerable. It’s very scary. And I had to learn through trial and error. Sure. I learned to never use extremes. I never say you can never be fired for this.

Mary Simon [00:33:04 – 00:33:04]

Sure.

Paige Sparks [00:33:04 – 00:33:24]

Because then there’s someone, someone in the comments that’s like, well, this one, it’s like the one niche. I’m like, okay, you’re right. But like, so like you just have to find what works for you. I avoid extremes. I try to use other people’s work that way. I could be like, I didn’t say that, the Supreme Court did. Or, you know, I try to use what other people have already done. And it also did make me more confident as a lawyer and as a person though.

Paige Sparks [00:33:24 – 00:33:26]

Like you’re practicing these little skills, you’re flexing them.

Mary Simon [00:33:27 – 00:33:27]

Yeah.

Paige Sparks [00:33:27 – 00:33:34]

When you’re doing the videos, it made me better across the board, I think, for doing this kind of thing. Like, I would be like shaking like a chihuahua right now if I wasn’t doing kind, you know, like this.

Sydney Marino [00:33:34 – 00:33:34]

Right.

Paige Sparks [00:33:35 – 00:33:44]

It just, it helps everything, especially for me, especially because I am introverted. But that is the thing. You have to push past it. You have to not care if you’re gonna do it. You have to want money.

Mary Simon [00:33:45 – 00:33:45]

Right.

Paige Sparks [00:33:45 – 00:33:49]

Think of the money. Think of what vacation you wanna go on. Right. You know? Right.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:33:49 – 00:33:55]

Okay, Paige, this has been such a fun conversation. For our listeners who want to start following you, where can they find you?

Paige Sparks [00:33:55 – 00:34:11]

Uh, you can find me on Facebook just as Paige Sparks. There’s a picture of me with a horse. Uh, on Instagram I’m _PaigeSparks, and then on TikTok I’m Lawyer Paige. My YouTube is my least favorite child. I don’t know what that one’s called, but probably if you look up any variation of those, it’ll come up. Awesome.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:34:11 – 00:34:51]

Thank you so much. I would advise all of our listeners to go give Paige a follow. I think one of the biggest takeaways from this episode is how much work goes into creating such a sustainable brand, but how much it’s benefited you. It’s clearly about consistency, showing up, being willing to learn and take risks. So thank you. In 2 weeks, we’re going to continue this conversation because there’s another side to building a public brand. We’re going to talk about criticism, balancing a law practice with content creation, dealing with internet trolls, and where legal marketing is headed next. So be sure to check out part 2 of our conversation with Paige.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:34:52 – 00:35:08]

If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, we’d love for you to subscribe, leave us a review, and share this episode with someone who’s looking for inspiration to think differently about building their career. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. We drop new episodes every other Wednesday, so we’ll talk to you then.

Announcer [00:35:11 – 00:35:41]

Thanks for listening to Heels in the Courtroom. At the Simon Law Firm, we know that trial success isn’t just about experience. It’s about strategy, resources, and the power of collaboration. That’s why attorneys across the country partner with us to strengthen their cases and deliver justice for their clients. If you’re interested in working with our team of seasoned trial lawyers, call 314-241-2929. And if you enjoyed the podcast, be sure to subscribe and send us your thoughts at heelsinthecourtroom.law.

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