EP 1014: On Ego: Why Female Attorneys Need It Part 1

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer [00:00:06 – 00:00:14]

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Mary Simon [00:00:15 – 00:00:24]

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. I’m Mary Simon, and I’m joined today by Cindy Marino, Elizabeth McNulty, and Liz Lenove. Hey ladies.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:00:25 – 00:00:25]

Hi, Mary. Hello.

Mary Simon [00:00:26 – 00:00:54]

So today I really wanted to talk with you all about ego. I’ve been thinking about this a lot. It is, you know, it permeates throughout our profession in every single thing that we do. And quite frankly, I think like 90% of the time that we’re, we’re just yapping with each other about something that happened during the day, ego plays a role in that of, cuz we’re normally talking about an interaction we had with someone. And at the root of all of that, I believe there’s a lot of just ego that’s running through.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:00:54 – 00:00:54]

Mm-hmm.

Mary Simon [00:00:55 – 00:01:26]

Our profession. And then I was laughing as I was putting this together because I’m like, we have a podcast. So as I’m putting together an outline of my thoughts of what is ego and like, do we have them? I’m like, well, I mean, we are putting together a podcast assuming that people want to listen to us talk about what we do for a living. So yeah, we definitely all have one. I kind of wanted to start as we typically do if we’re talking about a topic like this with just, let me just ask you guys, this is how I was thinking about it.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:01:26 – 00:01:26]

Okay.

Mary Simon [00:01:27 – 00:01:35]

thing, not who comes to mind, but what is the first thing that comes to mind when you think about the concept of ego?

Sydney Marino [00:01:35 – 00:01:37]

I mean, I have a who and it’s Beyoncé.

Mary Simon [00:01:38 – 00:01:40]

Oh, okay. Healthy ego. Yes.

Sydney Marino [00:01:40 – 00:01:54]

I mean, that’s one answer, but I mean, if we’re being in all seriousness, ego has a very negative connotation to it. So putting aside the incredible 2000s pop hit that I was referencing.

Liz Lenivy [00:01:54 – 00:01:55]

Great song.

Sydney Marino [00:01:55 – 00:02:08]

Uh, great song. Um, ego. Yeah, I think about cocky. That’s the first thing that comes up. Cocky, arrogant, maybe a bully, unwilling to listen or compromise. So it’s not a pretty word.

Mary Simon [00:02:08 – 00:02:23]

What I was immediately thinking of is like, can’t see past self. Like self is the, the root of everything. Like everything revolves around that person if there’s ego involved. So it is, it’s like my immediate thought was also negative connotation. What do you guys think?

Liz Lenivy [00:02:23 – 00:03:02]

I think it’s a balancing act though, because I understand there’s a negative connotation, but someone without ego, I feel like we also look kind of down upon. So it’s just kind of like you have to strike a balance of like not being cocky, but you also need to carry yourself with a certain air that you know what you’re doing. And I think, probably get into this later, but that’s kind of where the difference between men and women is because they can do things that we can’t. But I also think they get away with a lot more than we do in the sense of it. And it looks worse on them, at least from my point of view. I’m sure people feel differently about that.

Mary Simon [00:03:02 – 00:03:03]

I don’t.

Sydney Marino [00:03:05 – 00:03:06]

I think they’re less self-aware about it.

Liz Lenivy [00:03:06 – 00:03:08]

Oh yeah. Definitely.

Mary Simon [00:03:08 – 00:03:08]

Because they don’t have to be.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:03:08 – 00:03:09]

Yeah.

Liz Lenivy [00:03:09 – 00:03:22]

I think it’s different in a professional setting than in a social setting. Because I think Men and women who carry themselves that way are probably both— it looks more positive, but in a professional setting, it just becomes too much.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:03:23 – 00:04:05]

See, I feel like the opposite. I feel like in a professional setting, it’s more accepted to act like that, and no one really calls it out. But in a, I don’t know, like a social setting, something like that, if someone has an ego, it’s everyone’s problem and everyone knows about it, and people will call them out, or they just won’t acknowledge that person so much, and it’s kind of like a known thing. But in a professional setting, I feel like it’s more accepted. The words that I was thinking of whenever we were talking about ego Yeah. So I had 2. First, it was negative, was like self-centered, I don’t know, kind of like self-absorbed. But then I also started to think about it in terms of confidence in our profession, and especially as women too, having a little bit of an ego also is— I equate it with having self-confidence and being able to put yourself in these positions.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:04:05 – 00:04:13]

And there is a balance to it, so I like that. And so I’m sure we’ll discuss the healthy part of it, and that’s where the self-confidence side comes in a little bit.

Sydney Marino [00:04:13 – 00:04:42]

Sydney, I, I like that answer a lot. And something when you were sort of pitching the idea initially, Mary, I had written down a sentence I had recently heard. It was in the context of how do you as a woman overcome that feeling of, you know, imposter syndrome, the thing that we spend way too much time probably thinking about. And this woman’s response was, my confidence comes from my competence. And that is something that I’ve been trying to incorporate, and it feels like maybe that will bleed a little bit into today’s discussion as well.

Mary Simon [00:04:42 – 00:04:52]

Yeah, I really like that too, because it doesn’t automatically— it has the backing of it not being a negative connotation and something that makes you feel good about having it.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:04:52 – 00:04:52]

Right.

Mary Simon [00:04:52 – 00:04:53]

Like it’s justified or—

Sydney Marino [00:04:53 – 00:04:54]

I’ve earned this ego.

Mary Simon [00:04:54 – 00:05:35]

I’ve earned it. Yes, exactly. There were a lot of definitions of ego that I was looking at, you know, from different authors and different books, because there’s so much literature out on ego and how to develop it and healthy ego. And one that like simplifies it the most, I thought, was it’s a person’s sense of self-esteem. Or self-importance. If you want to get real deep in it, you know, there’s also the Sigmund Freud route where, you know, the human psyche is divided into 3 parts. There’s the id, which is more of like the unconscious part of the mind that seeks immediate gratification, more like primitive type desires. There’s the superego, which is a moral conscience learned from parents and society.

Mary Simon [00:05:35 – 00:06:21]

That’s more about, you know, enforcing rules, guilt, and kind of your moral— balance your moral ideals. And then there’s the ego. And the ego is the realistic, conscious mediator. It operates on the reality principle that the ego delays instant gratification from the id until a safe, socially acceptable way to satisfy those needs is found. And even that, I think, goes into the negative connotation is kind of like— It’s people who just immediately go into what’s about them is what we talked about. Could be an unhealthy one. I wanted to open up the floor, especially for our listeners who a lot of them are female attorneys. You know, I posed the question, why is ego necessary for female attorneys? Because I believe it is.

Mary Simon [00:06:21 – 00:06:30]

I don’t think it’s whether or not it is, it’s why. And I mean, I’ll tell all of you, as I was thinking about this, the thing that came to mind, have all of you guys seen Barbie?

Sydney Marino [00:06:31 – 00:06:31]

Mm-hmm.

Mary Simon [00:06:31 – 00:06:53]

Um, right. So I was thinking about that monologue that I think, is it America Ferrera who says it? And it’s similar in the legal profession. It’s like, be confident but not intimidating. Be ambitious. Don’t be self-promoting. Be successful, but don’t be too proud of yourself. Be assertive, but still be likable. Be loud, but don’t be a lot.

Mary Simon [00:06:53 – 00:07:09]

And then take up space, but not too much. And I feel like that’s something that all of us navigate. Um, so curious to hear from you all. I mean, why do you think, if you agree with me, why do you think that ego is such a necessary part of being a female attorney?

Sydney Marino [00:07:09 – 00:07:50]

Yeah, ego is necessary to be an attorney, period, male or female. I think it’s especially necessary when you are a trial lawyer because you are going in front of a group of strangers trying to convince them that you are right. And next to politics, I can’t think of anything else that has a similar type stage. And that takes confidence, going back to that. But I think if you’re trying to convince an audience of anything, they need to feel that you believe in what you are saying. And there’s no way to do that unless you’ve got some ego to it. I mean, again, going back to this is earned, this is my competence, this is what I know. I have built this case.

Sydney Marino [00:07:50 – 00:08:42]

I know what the facts are. I know I’m right. And I’m going to convince you why I’m right and why these hopefully equally as prepared and intelligent attorneys on the opposite side of me are wrong. I think juries are very astute, and they can see when you don’t believe in the message you’re trying to send. And I’m thinking about it in terms of comparing it to other jobs. And I wrote down the word surgeon, right? When you think about if you’ve ever had yourself or a loved one being prepped for surgery, you’re talking to the doctor, you want that doctor to be confident, right? Hey, we’re gonna go in, I’ve done this a million times, it’s no big deal, and here’s the risks and here’s the benefits, but everything’s gonna be fine. And that’s the kind of conversation you wanna have. And I think there was like a really funny commercial a couple years ago where, like the doctor comes in and he was like, I don’t know about this.

Sydney Marino [00:08:42 – 00:08:44]

And you could see like, that was the comedy of it.

Liz Lenivy [00:08:44 – 00:08:44]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:08:44 – 00:09:11]

But if, think about it, if you are in that position, like you’re not feeling so great. So you have to have some ego just to convince a jury. But also I think it’s important ’cause that rubs off on your client. I need my clients to feel confident and ready and prepared to essentially go into what is a battle. I mean, it’s a fight. And I think if you’re not prepared, you’re not feeling good, the client is going to read that. And then when the client gets up there to testify, the jury’s going to read that. that as well.

Sydney Marino [00:09:11 – 00:09:25]

So yeah, it’s, it’s absolutely necessary. Now, again, the trick is how to balance that against coming off as arrogant, cocky, self-important. That’s a bad part of ego, um, which a jury will also pick up on.

Mary Simon [00:09:25 – 00:09:46]

It’s interesting you say that because the last case that I tried, I remember before close, I, I might’ve already said this before, I can’t remember, but I called my brother and was telling him my ideas for close and I was talking about the damages I was going to ask for. And sometimes in the cases we try, we’re asking for tens of millions of dollars.

Sydney Marino [00:09:46 – 00:09:47]

Mm-hmm.

Mary Simon [00:09:47 – 00:10:21]

I mean, you got to have, yeah, you got to know what you’re doing to ask that question and know your case. And I told him what I was asking for, and then I told him kind of like the range that I was thinking about. And he’s like, well, do you believe it? And that’s what he asked me. And I was like, what do you mean, do I believe it? He’s like, well, do you believe that he deserves X amount? And I went, oh my God, I think he deserves twice that. And he is like, okay, I believe you. Yeah, you can say that. And I was like, what? He’s like, if you don’t believe it, he’s like, I just needed to hear you say it to me. Like you’re, you’re just, you’re Mary and you’re telling me what you think about the case.

Mary Simon [00:10:21 – 00:10:39]

And I, I can hear in your voice you 100% believe it. And you can’t go into a courtroom and ask someone for an amount of money that you don’t believe it. And they’ll know if you don’t. It’s so true. It’s like, that’s what we’re doing is we’re telling a group of strangers we’ve never met before. I’m right. Trust me and trust what I’m telling you that this is worth.

Sydney Marino [00:10:39 – 00:11:29]

Sorry, that story’s making me think about a couple months ago, Elizabeth and I, we coach a high school mock trial team. And the last problem that they had was, it was a civil case. Kid had fallen off of some sort of water ride at an amusement park, died. So it’s a wrongful death case. And we’re on the plaintiff’s side, we’re prepping. And one of the kids comes up to us and he’s got his his outline ready for his closing arguments. And he’s like, how much do you think we should ask for? And I go, well, how much do you think we should ask for? And he was like, um, well, the medical bills were $70,000 total, so maybe we multiply that by 10 and ask for $700,000. And I go, you think a 16-year-old’s life is worth $700,000? I go, no, let’s multiply that by another 10.

Liz Lenivy [00:11:29 – 00:11:30]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:11:30 – 00:11:31]

Yes.

Sydney Marino [00:11:31 – 00:11:37]

I was like, you say $7 million. He goes, $7 million? I was like, yeah, but I need you to not say it like that. I need you to say it like you believe it.

Liz Lenivy [00:11:38 – 00:11:38]

Exactly.

Sydney Marino [00:11:38 – 00:12:12]

And he got over it and he got up there and he said it with his whole chest. No one on the jury, you know, the mock jury batted an eye. And again, like you could see though that like as he was going through the case and his confidence grew, by the time he got to saying $7 million in this very fake case, he believed it. He believed it. And then the jury picked up on that and he did a very good job. But it’s very funny. But it’s this idea of if you believe it, then why don’t you say it? Don’t stutter around it. We don’t need to two-step around the issue.

Sydney Marino [00:12:12 – 00:12:14]

Just say the number and believe in it.

Liz Lenivy [00:12:15 – 00:12:45]

Well, and I think that idea applies in all areas of our life. And I just think life is so much easier for people who are confident because you see people who walk through life that don’t, have any confidence, their self-esteem is really low, and it seems like life is a lot harder for them. Uh, I think we run into this because we do the work that we do. It’s a lot of people with a lot of self-confidence, and sometimes it feels like, wow, you have way too much self-confidence. It’s like, I don’t really feel like you’re that competent.

Mary Simon [00:12:45 – 00:12:46]

So I don’t—

Liz Lenivy [00:12:46 – 00:13:36]

I honestly think it like starts developing when you’re a kid, and like it develops in the home, and it becomes like really important to like grow up with a lot of self-esteem, especially as women, because I think that we battle a lot, not only against ourselves, but like the world telling us, so like, we’re not enough, we’re not doing enough, we need to do more. And it’s really hard to quiet all of those voices. And I think that’s why it’s so important that like you build up your self-esteem as much as you can before the world tries to like really bat it down a lot. And you have to quiet all of those voices telling you those things and just Hold your head high. I do think in front of a jury, it’s kind of fake it till you make it, but sometimes that can be a little transparent. So yeah, if you don’t believe it, then they’re not going to believe it either. So it takes a bit of convincing yourself.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:13:37 – 00:14:17]

It was funny that you said about quieting the voices because I wrote down quiet the noise. That was the one thing and I circled it. And I was thinking more of just like, and I thinking about it not so much in a being in front of a jury sense, because me, I haven’t had that experience yet, so I can’t necessarily relate to that. But at least what I was thinking about, and whenever, Mary, you read through this monologue, I was kind of thinking like, okay, there is a little bit of an internal battle that’s going on that’s like, be loud, but don’t take up too much space. Don’t be too much, going back and forth in your head. And for me, I think ego’s a little bit necessary because once you accept the fact that it’s okay to have a little bit of an ego, it quiets all of that noise, that internal battle that’s going back and forth.

Mary Simon [00:14:17 – 00:14:17]

Oh, good point.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:14:18 – 00:14:45]

Yeah, that’s going back and forth like, oh, okay, I need to be confident, but I can’t be intimidating. I have to find that balance. But I think part of that is just because we’re worried about accepting the fact that we’re allowed to have an ego. So for me at least, it’s more so now having been practicing for a little bit longer and experiencing certain things where I start to have those internal battles, I’m like, okay, I am here for a reason. I got to this point because I worked hard.

Liz Lenivy [00:14:45 – 00:14:45]

Yeah.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:14:46 – 00:15:21]

And I’m allowed to have a bit of an ego for that because I need to be confident in my own abilities to be able to then perform well and represent my clients well. And you can only really do that if you accept that you’re allowed to have that. So that’s where I was kind of going with that, even though I think that all of what Liz and Elizabeth, you both said about in terms of just being in front of a jury, that makes a ton of sense. It’s just I haven’t had that experience yet, so I can’t relate to it. But just in general, I think that’s a good way to think about it for me, at least, on why you’re allowed to have an ego.

Sydney Marino [00:15:21 – 00:16:15]

I think this concept of you’re allowed to have an ego has also made me consider the fact that frankly, externally, there are certain professions where an ego is expected. Again, medicine, law, people in general, juries, clients, opposing counsel, our colleagues, we all have an expectation that we all have something of an ego. We kind of do a crazy job, if you think about it, at the end of the day. So you have to be pretty confident in yourself to do it well. And I think the greater public is also possibly a little bit more forgiving if you, as an attorney, have something of an ego. It’s an expectation, right? In terms of, are you allowed to have it, obviously, you are allowed to have it. And internally, you should find that. But also, I think externally, we get a little bit more grace because of the industry that we’re in.

Mary Simon [00:16:15 – 00:16:45]

I remember too, it, it, it’s kind of funny. I, when you were talking about in medicine, the first, I had a, I had a different OB the, for my, uh, oldest than I did with my second. Cuz my initial OB, she retired and she’s amazing. I love her so much. But I remember in, it’s my first time in like labor and delivery and I’m sitting, you know, in the room like waiting to give birth. Mm-hmm. And she came into the room. And the nurse said something like, I think we need to— was kind of whispering to her.

Mary Simon [00:16:46 – 00:17:03]

And especially the nuance of being a plaintiff’s attorney sitting there and I’m like, why are you whispering? There’s no whispering in the room. And so she’s whispering something to the OB and my OB’s like, what are you saying? Really loud to this, probably a relatively new nurse. She looked so young.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:17:03 – 00:17:03]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:17:03 – 00:17:16]

She’s like, what are you saying about it? And she said to me, and she goes, look, I’m the doctor. I’m making the decisions. This is what we’re doing. You’re gonna go get XYZ. We’re gonna do this. And she just laid out the plan and I instantly felt better.

Liz Lenivy [00:17:16 – 00:17:16]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:17:16 – 00:17:33]

And I know she came into the room and was like, I’m the most important person in here right now for everyone to be looking at me. And she even told me, she’s like, look at me, listen to what I’m about to tell you. And it’s just like, I did have that expectation. And some people in a different setting might be like, Jesus, And I was like, oh Jesus, this is wonderful.

Liz Lenivy [00:17:33 – 00:17:33]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:17:33 – 00:17:40]

Like, I’m so glad that she’s here with us right now because it was just, she absolutely had the healthiest ego in my opinion.

Sydney Marino [00:17:40 – 00:17:40]

Mm-hmm.

Mary Simon [00:17:40 – 00:18:48]

Because she knew exactly what she needed to do. Her competence, 100% on point to just get us to where we needed to be. And I could tell it was a little bit of a, maybe the nurse was entertaining different things that we could do with different medications or levels that we, and she just very quickly was like, louder, say what you’re, it’s just a presence thing that in certain circumstances, You equate it to law. And as I’m thinking about it, I was like, what? No one would want a lawyer who wasn’t absolutely sure of themselves going into the courtroom. And this is kind of a funny thing that happened. Now it’s funny, right? It wasn’t funny the day it said it, but maybe I was in my second or third year of practice and I was working on a case and an attorney asked me about the case I was working on. And I started giving some information about it and he said to me, why do you have that case? Why do you have that case? And I was very caught off guard in the moment. And you know those little moments that happen, we all have our secret notebook where we know who said that to us and when, right? Um, we’ll have to do a different podcast on resentments, I guess.

Mary Simon [00:18:49 – 00:19:22]

Um, but I didn’t know what to say in the moment and I stumbled through my words and I remember saying something like, Oh, well, the case, we got the case this way. I was logistically explaining how I was working on the assignment I was working on. And as I’m reflecting on it later, as I’m going, that’s not what he was asking. He was asking, why are you working on that case? That was the tone of it. And you learn from those moments. And I was talking to someone who I would describe as having a very large ego.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:19:22 – 00:19:22]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:19:23 – 00:20:09]

And, um, and it wasn’t an attorney at this office. It was a colleague of mine who was, I mean, he was like about as far out from law school as I was. Um, but he’s saying that at, you know, the big firm he works at or whatever. But I now am reflecting and, and, and my, the healthy ego, and I don’t know, I don’t know if it’s right or wrong, but I believe it would be a healthy amount of ego for me now to just say, because I’m the best attorney to handle the case. Like, what do you mean by that? I don’t know what you’re asking me. Why do you have that case? But that’s the difference between even the noise. That’s a time in my life where the noise was way overpowering my ability to even like form a coherent thought when confronted with something like that. That is, I believe, what ego is necessary to do the job that we’re doing.

Liz Lenivy [00:20:09 – 00:20:10]

Oh yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:20:10 – 00:21:14]

I’m sitting here thinking, because I’m the oldest person in the room now, and, you know, Sydney, I’m sort of like juxtaposing my perspective with yours since you are very new still. And I think back when I was, you know, 1 to 2 years out and my process was I would think of a situation and I, or a problem, I would be faced with a problem and I would think of 5, 6, 7 different solutions to it, but I didn’t know which one to, to do. I, I couldn’t pull the trigger on one. So I would go to a bunch of other attorneys and I would, I would say like, I, I, I just need someone to like tell me what is the right thing to do. 11 years later. And now, uh, I’ll still think of a couple different ideas, but I have no problem pulling the trigger on one. And it sometimes gives me a little bit of heartburn of like, am I doing the right thing? Am I making the right call? Especially, again, in a job like ours where you’re making 1,000 calls a day, right? You have so many decisions to make that any one of them could be the particular issue that your client’s case hinges on. That’s a lot of pressure.

Sydney Marino [00:21:14 – 00:21:17]

But you just get to the point where you’re like, I’ve been there, done that.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:21:17 – 00:21:18]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:21:18 – 00:21:47]

You know, if I, if I need the advice, I’ll go talk to someone. If I just need someone to back up my, my thoughts so I can tell the client, hey, you know, I talked to so-and-so, I’ve roundtabled it. That’s my favorite phrase. I’ve roundtabled it. And, and typically what that means is I’ve talked to 1 or 2 other people in the office and said, am I doing the right thing here? What do you think? And sometimes they tell me I’m wrong. Most of the time they tell me I’m right. And that is also where I’ve grown in my confidence is hearing other people. confirm that I am down— going down the right path.

Sydney Marino [00:21:47 – 00:22:02]

So, and, you know, Mary, your story. I had this happen to me very recently where a case got reassigned to me, and I got a lot of pushback by the referring attorney, frankly rude pushback about, well, we don’t want you.

Mary Simon [00:22:02 – 00:22:02]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:22:02 – 00:22:12]

We don’t know anything about you. And I said, well, why don’t you know— how about this? And I got really mad at it. Frankly, I was pretty offended by it. But I sort of, I balanced my id.

Liz Lenivy [00:22:13 – 00:22:13]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:22:13 – 00:22:53]

Which was to immediately lash out and say, well, who the hell are you? To balance that out with the superego and thinking, well, what is the best thing to do with this particular case and how can I advance this case forward? And I said, well, you know, how about that we do this? How about we do this? Gimme the case file. I’m gonna look through everything. And then why don’t we have a sit-down conversation? We’ll do it over Zoom if you want. And you can grill me on this case and we can talk about it and we can talk about strategy. And we did that and I came in with a full plan ready to go and was very strategic in, in dropping some of like my experience and some of my verdicts.

Mary Simon [00:22:53 – 00:22:53]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:22:53 – 00:22:57]

And then by the end of the conversation, completely different tune, very different attitude.

Mary Simon [00:22:58 – 00:22:58]

Oh wow.

Sydney Marino [00:22:58 – 00:23:03]

And I was like, okay, so look, I should not have been put in a situation where I had to justify—

Mary Simon [00:23:04 – 00:23:04]

Right.

Sydney Marino [00:23:04 – 00:23:35]

My presence and my efforts and, and place in the case. But if that’s what you need in order for us to move this thing forward, I will do that, but I’m gonna do it on my terms. So I’m gonna be presenting this, I’m gonna be driving the conversation, and I’m not gonna let these weird, snide remarks go. But it was a tough conversation to have, and I constantly had to find myself sort of breathing exercise so I didn’t lose my shit on this call.

Mary Simon [00:23:35 – 00:23:35]

Mm-hmm.

Sydney Marino [00:23:36 – 00:23:42]

But it’s, it was very successful. So, and again, I’m 11 years out and I still have to do that in some situations.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:23:42 – 00:23:43]

So, yeah.

Mary Simon [00:23:43 – 00:23:51]

And even in that circumstance, it’s, I, I’m immediately thinking about so many attorneys I know who would say, okay, bye.

Liz Lenivy [00:23:51 – 00:23:51]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:23:51 – 00:24:25]

Like, you know, like I think that it take, that’s also here. Um, not every attorney would make the decision that you made to actually I don’t know. I, I would do, I would do the same thing that you did, which is like, okay, say more about why, like why you’re asking me those questions and to put your mind at ease. I think that that’s a healthy thing to do. I do. Um, because I think it takes out the self-absorbed ego, which is just like, fine, you don’t want me, I don’t want you. Take a hike.

Sydney Marino [00:24:25 – 00:24:36]

That was my, that was my first reaction of, oh, you don’t want my help? Okay. Then see ya. Right. You know what? Less work for me. Exactly. Less on my plate. And then I, Again, it’s a balancing act.

Mary Simon [00:24:36 – 00:25:15]

Yeah. But I think it, it takes skill to even develop. I think that it actually takes more confidence to do what you did than it is to just write someone off because then you’re actually, you’re actually facing it. And I, yeah. So even that in my head, I think ego plays a role when you have to, you’re like, okay, this person actually thinks this, that for some reason they’re questioning my ability to participate in this. case or whatever it is. And yes, I’d have the same initial reaction too. But I actually think it takes a lot more, I think it takes a lot more balanced ego, emotional regulation, just development as a human.

Mary Simon [00:25:15 – 00:25:43]

Just you’ve done enough work that you’re able to take that step and actually sit in it and get to the other side of it. Which also, there’s probably an argument to be made that that’s also part of your ego that’s like, look, See what I can do. And then look, I told you, you know what I mean? Like, I also feel that I would feel that in that situation, but I think it’s better to do that than just write someone off if they say something that you don’t like, or you’re like, ooh, that didn’t feel good to me. So bye.

Liz Lenivy [00:25:43 – 00:25:44]

You know?

Elizabeth McNulty [00:25:45 – 00:26:10]

You know, I was thinking about, so Mary, your story and then Liz, your story. And I haven’t had that exact interaction, but yet, yet. preface yet, but I’ve had similar ones having now come back to work here. And I’ve had people, and I’m sure at the time I was not thinking about it like this, but now looking back on these situations, it’s like, oh, you’re working there?

Sydney Marino [00:26:12 – 00:26:12]

How?

Elizabeth McNulty [00:26:12 – 00:26:52]

Yeah. Kind of not so much a, wow, that’s great. That is a really great firm and congrats to you being however many years, Yes. Only a year out of law school. No, it’s more so like, oh, wow, what qualifies you to be working with those attorneys at that level? And so it’s kind of just sitting back and I think about it and I’m like, okay, I’m not going to argue with you about what qualifies me to be where I’m at and the hard work that I’ve put in. But it is sort of like, then I think about now ego and I’m like, well, maybe that was my ego just sitting back and Being like, okay, well I’ll prove to you why I deserve to be there. Just watch and learn.

Mary Simon [00:26:52 – 00:26:52]

But right.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:26:53 – 00:26:57]

I don’t know. I just think it’s interesting and I’m sure I’ll have those sorts of, you know, interactions.

Mary Simon [00:26:58 – 00:27:00]

And see how you think about it. It like just doesn’t leave my brain.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:27:00 – 00:27:00]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:27:00 – 00:27:02]

I need to work on just letting that stuff go. Cuz it does.

Liz Lenivy [00:27:03 – 00:27:03]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:27:03 – 00:27:11]

It just sits with you of just like, oh my God, are you one of more than one person who’s wondering why I’m, of course I’m here. Like, you know what I mean?

Elizabeth McNulty [00:27:11 – 00:27:12]

Yeah, exactly.

Liz Lenivy [00:27:12 – 00:27:27]

I think those kinds of questions always say more about the person asking ’em than they do about you. Mm-hmm. And like, you just can’t let that kind of stuff bother you. Because you’ll spend the rest of your life trying to prove to people why you belong instead of just belonging.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:27:27 – 00:27:30]

Yeah. I usually chop it up to being jealous. It’s like a jealousy thing. Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:27:30 – 00:27:49]

And also Elizabeth’s hot take on this from so many episodes ago that I have carried with me ever since is that she one time said, anyone ever says something to you that is wildly insulting, I don’t care if it’s insulting to your ego or just insulting. to you as a person, just ask them to repeat it.

Liz Lenivy [00:27:50 – 00:27:50]

It works.

Mary Simon [00:27:50 – 00:28:00]

She said that a lot. Like, she said that a long time ago, and I have not forgotten it. And it works so well to be like, I’m sorry, wait, what are you asking?

Elizabeth McNulty [00:28:00 – 00:28:01]

You can take that with clients too.

Mary Simon [00:28:01 – 00:28:21]

And then you, yeah, and then you just kind of look and pause. And she, I remember you said it gives them a chance to take it back if they’re going to take it back, or they’re standing 10 toes down. And that tells you everything you need to know about that interaction to just give you Now you have the information to just move forward accordingly in that relationship. But isn’t it just amazing advice?

Elizabeth McNulty [00:28:21 – 00:28:23]

That is great advice. Thank you.

Mary Simon [00:28:23 – 00:28:54]

So I also, I was reflecting on this myself, but wanted to ask you all, have you ever found yourself backing down from something because you were worried about how you’d be perceived? We’ve all kind of talked about a position where we’re already in the position and then being asked, how did you? Do that. But is there anything that you’ve, that you haven’t done because you were worried about, you know, oh, she’ll be too much, or she’s not qualified to do, like you didn’t have the, the ego to do it.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:28:54 – 00:29:33]

So actually it’s interesting that you had this question because this was something I saved. It was actually on TikTok. There was like a discourse about being like, it was younger female attorneys and she was talking, she was talking about being embarrassed to say that she’s an attorney when someone asks what their, what her job is. And it was like a ton of comments and it was just, everyone kind of had the same feeling that it was like, you shouldn’t be embarrassed by that. But for some reason it, it feels like that internally. Like to say that that’s your occupation, like they’re just asking a simple question, but to like say the words, oh, I’m an attorney. It was like a weird feeling almost. And I feel that right now.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:29:33 – 00:29:35]

And I’ve, I’ve actually talked to Katie about it.

Sydney Marino [00:29:35 – 00:29:35]

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:29:36 – 00:29:55]

about what I would say to people. And I say I’m an attorney, but then I kind of look around for some weird response from what they’re going to ask me then after that. So I thought that was kind of an interesting— not that I’ve never said that I’m an attorney, actually, now that that is my job, but it is interesting to think back about that.

Mary Simon [00:29:55 – 00:29:56]

Because I am.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:29:56 – 00:30:04]

But it is interesting that that’s a discourse that’s being talked about, especially just younger female attorneys, that they feel this embarrassment almost.

Mary Simon [00:30:04 – 00:30:05]

Oh, wow.

Liz Lenivy [00:30:05 – 00:30:06]

That’s sad.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:30:06 – 00:30:12]

I know. That’s what I thought. I thought it was really sad because I’m like, I’m very proud of where I’m at. But also I do sort of—

Mary Simon [00:30:12 – 00:30:13]

You relate to that a little bit.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:30:13 – 00:30:31]

I do understand where they’re coming from. Like I saved it to go back and I’ll send it. I’ll show you guys. But it was interesting that I do sort of feel that just meeting people out in like public, in a public place, like socially, and you, get asked that question and I’m like hesitant almost. I don’t know.

Liz Lenivy [00:30:33 – 00:30:53]

I wonder if it’s just because of all the preconceived notions people have with like what that means and like they already guess what your personality is based upon that. Yeah. But I feel like there are, I mean, maybe not so much in what we do, but there are all different kind of personality types of being a lawyer. That’s, but that makes me kind of sad because the only reason I never tell, I won’t tell someone that is because I don’t want to hear their legal questions.

Mary Simon [00:30:54 – 00:30:55]

Yeah. Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:30:55 – 00:30:58]

That’s, that’s, that’s the only reason.

Liz Lenivy [00:30:58 – 00:30:58]

Yeah.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:30:59 – 00:30:59]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:30:59 – 00:31:16]

Yeah. I hear that does, that makes me feel bummed, Sydney. Um, you shouldn’t feel awkward or whatever, uncomfortable about saying it, but it just makes me think about my mom. ‘Cause when I first grad— I had literally been a licensed attorney for maybe 20 minutes.

Mary Simon [00:31:16 – 00:31:17]

I love stories about your mom.

Sydney Marino [00:31:18 – 00:31:35]

I, she’s so funny. Yeah. But, and, and honestly, like I’m drawing confidence from her because yeah. I had just gotten licensed. I didn’t know what I was doing. And when she would introduce me to people, she would go, this is my daughter, attorney. She wouldn’t say my name. She wouldn’t say this is her job.

Sydney Marino [00:31:36 – 00:31:43]

Or she would just go, this is my daughter, attorney. And it’s such a goofy thing for her, but it was, it’s because she’s proud of me.

Mary Simon [00:31:43 – 00:31:43]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:31:43 – 00:31:48]

And it’s because she knows how hard I worked to get here and she knows how hard she worked to get here. Exactly.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:31:48 – 00:31:48]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:31:49 – 00:31:50]

So she wants a little bit of credit as well.

Mary Simon [00:31:50 – 00:31:53]

I wish she could say we, attorneys.

Sydney Marino [00:31:53 – 00:31:53]

Yeah, attorneys.

Liz Lenivy [00:31:53 – 00:31:54]

Yeah, exactly.

Sydney Marino [00:31:55 – 00:32:02]

So I don’t know, maybe, you know, maybe take that, think about how hard you worked to get there. And, you know, if it helps, think about my mom next time.

Liz Lenivy [00:32:03 – 00:32:03]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:32:03 – 00:32:06]

All of us just want you to pluck that little piece out of your brain and like kick it.

Liz Lenivy [00:32:07 – 00:32:07]

Yeah.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:32:07 – 00:32:32]

I just thought it was really interesting. Like I didn’t necessarily feel like that because I don’t know, I’m, maybe I have a little bit of an ego at this point now that we’re talking about it, but I don’t know. I thought it was very just, yeah, it did make me a little sad. I’m like, Don’t be like, don’t hold yourself back from saying that. It’s your job. I don’t know what else you would say other than that, or why you would feel, I don’t know, awkward to actually say what you do for a living.

Mary Simon [00:32:33 – 00:33:17]

At this point, I mean, all of us agree that we have to maintain some level of healthy ego in our profession. And so I also was thinking about, you know, at what point does that become a requirement? Like, at what point is that your responsibility to have that? And I often think about how, you know, if I ask my dad a question about something, he’ll give me advice on something and I’ll say like, at what point did you kind of figure that out? He’s like, I don’t remember, but someone must have taught it to me. And then I, and that’s kind of how I feel about this is I do believe at some point it does become your responsibility to have a certain level of ego, but I don’t know when it happens. I can’t, like, there’s not a moment in my head that I can pinpoint that I had that.

Liz Lenivy [00:33:18 – 00:33:18]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:33:18 – 00:33:25]

kind of switch? I don’t know if it was gradual. Maybe it’s just not linear and you go up. You guys know what I mean? I just, you kind of have to have it.

Liz Lenivy [00:33:25 – 00:33:27]

Do you mean professionally?

Mary Simon [00:33:27 – 00:33:27]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:33:27 – 00:33:28]

Yeah.

Liz Lenivy [00:33:28 – 00:33:55]

I almost think for me it came once I started doing more on my own. Like, you just don’t have to second-guess anymore because, like, I’m doing this all on my own. So, like, am I doing it right? But there’s also no one over your shoulder just being like, that was wrong, that was wrong, you should have done that better. And so That was kind of freeing in a way because it was like, I’m just going to trust my instincts and trust that I’m doing the right thing. And I think that’s kind of when the switch flipped for me and it was like, all right, I know how to do this and like, I can do it.

Sydney Marino [00:33:55 – 00:33:58]

And if I don’t know how to do this, I better figure it out fast.

Mary Simon [00:33:58 – 00:33:58]

Yeah.

Sydney Marino [00:33:58 – 00:33:59]

Yeah.

Liz Lenivy [00:33:59 – 00:34:13]

But because I think it’s just the voice in your head that’s making you question it. It doesn’t really have anything to do with your ability. Like, we all got here because we’re smart, talented people. And so it’s just the voice in your head that’s like, I don’t know, can I do this? And the answer is yes. And then the voice stops.

Mary Simon [00:34:13 – 00:34:19]

Yeah, and it also kind of, all of you can probably relate to this, it’s when you get the email that just says, please handle.

Elizabeth McNulty [00:34:19 – 00:34:19]

Yeah.

Mary Simon [00:34:20 – 00:34:57]

And then, and that’s the end of that assignment. And it could be an entire case. But it’s like once that, maybe it’s when that happens that you do that. Well, this has been such a great discussion. And the funny thing is now my brain is exploding with a million more questions I have about ego. Since we’ve kind of talked more about healthy ego and why we need to have it, I definitely want to keep this conversation going and we can discuss more of, you know, when ego gets the best of us. So we’ll jump into that next time. For our listeners, remember our episodes drop every other Wednesday and you can reach out to us anytime with comments, questions, or even ideas for episodes at [email protected].

Mary Simon [00:34:58 – 00:35:04]

See you next time. Thanks for listening to Heels in the Courtroom.

Sydney Marino [00:35:04 – 00:35:19]

At the Simon Law Firm, we know that trial success isn’t just about experience. It’s about strategy, resources, and the power of collaboration. That’s why attorneys across the country partner with us to strengthen their cases and deliver justice for their clients.

Mary Simon [00:35:19 – 00:35:26]

If you’re interested in working with our team of seasoned trial lawyers, call 314-241-2929.

Sydney Marino [00:35:27 – 00:35:32]

And if you enjoyed the podcast, be sure to subscribe and send us your thoughts at heelsinthecourtroom.law.

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