EP 1012: Trauma-Informed Lawyering: Caring for Clients and Yourself Part 1

Episode Notes

Transcript

Mary Simon [00:00:06 – 00:00:13]

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Katie St. John [00:00:16 – 00:00:39]

Welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. I am Katie St. John and I am joined today by my colleagues Liz Lenivy, Mary Simon, Elizabeth McNulty and Sydney Marino. We are so happy to welcome our guests today. Sara Marler, Ramona Gao and Brittany Graham from Marler Law Partners, a family law and estate planning firm based right here in St. Louis, Missouri.

Katie St. John [00:00:39 – 00:00:40]

Welcome.

Sara Marler [00:00:40 – 00:00:40]

Thank you.

Katie St. John [00:00:42 – 00:01:05]

Today we are diving into the concept of trauma informed lawyering. We us at Simon Law had the privilege of having Marlowe Law Partners come to our firm and share this work firsthand. And it left such an impression on us that we knew we had to bring this conversation to a larger audience. So I’m just going to kick us off with in your own words, what is trauma informed lawyering?

Sara Marler [00:01:05 – 00:01:52]

So I’ll start. Trauma informed lawyering is, I guess, approaches two different concepts. One is having a trauma informed approach for attorneys, and then the other is having a trauma informed approach for clients. So the idea is rooted in trauma informed approach, which kind of came to me from working with a therapist and just how we approach people, how we approach cases. Brittany can kind of go into the six different concepts of trauma informed care. I think you can kind of talk about that, but the idea is just to not sort of talk at people, right? Which we lawyers are very guilty of doing. Telling people, this is how your case is going to go, this is what’s going to happen. Here are the decisions you have to make and here’s what you should do.

Sara Marler [00:01:52 – 00:02:31]

Right? But actually presenting them with options, educating them, helping them make decisions along the way while also holding space for their emotions, trying to read their body language while also sitting with them in the muck is what I kind of say. Sitting with them in the discomfort and trying not to force things, taking a different approach to make space for whatever they’re feeling. Because you cannot just take this legal approach and forget that there are not emotions with this whole person that are happening, because all of that is influencing everything that’s happening in your case and

Ramona Gau [00:02:31 – 00:03:18]

to go along with that. One thing that we have learned to appreciate is when we talk about trauma, we’re not just talking about what they’re coming into a case, having experienced, but we’ve realized that just going through the legal process is its own separate trauma for these folks. This isn’t our first time. This is what we do day in and day out. Quite frankly, this stuff feeds our soul, which is why we’re doing it. But to our clients, they are suffering through this process because this is a first for them. So it’s appreciating that aspect as well when we’re approaching them and representing them. And if I could jump in just so our audience has a little bit of an understanding of the voices that are coming in to them right now.

Ramona Gau [00:03:19 – 00:03:28]

Sara and Ramona, you both are attorneys, correct? And then Brittany, Sara referenced you, but what is your role? Could you describe what your role is?

Brittany Graham [00:03:28 – 00:04:11]

So by trade, I am a licensed clinical social worker. I’m a practicing trauma therapist and have been for over a decade now. At Marler, my role is client specialist and chief wellness officer. So on the client side, I work directly with clients and with their legal team to support the communication efforts, navigating emotions, those sorts of things. And then as Sara mentioned, this is not just a one sided, client facing approach. It’s also thinking about how do we help equip our attorneys with what they need to prevent burnout and empathetic distress and all of those sorts of things. On the chief wellness side, I exist to work with our staff internally and make sure that they are also being protected from secondary traumatic stress.

Katie St. John [00:04:11 – 00:04:28]

Sara, when you say that it came to you when you were meeting with your own therapist, is it. Was it something where you felt like it was a progression of I feel like I need to implement this, or I mean, did you intend to have this conversation with your therapist about how do I bring this to my law practice or how did that kind of

Sara Marler [00:04:28 – 00:04:52]

come to be sure, that’s a really great question. So it’s sort of. It’s two things. So it was a progression. And then I definitely had an aha moment, a progression of my own work over the years. You guys have heard this story before, but your readers, your audience hasn’t, so you’re going to hear it again. But I picked a therapist after law school. I had decided I was going to be a prosecutor, was doing that work.

Sara Marler [00:04:53 – 00:05:31]

And personally, like after you graduate from school and you’ve been in school forever, I kind of got to this point where I was like, I don’t know how I’m doing in the world anymore. I don’t have grades to tell me you’re successful, you’re doing this, you’re doing like. I was just like, where’s my measuring stick? And I became very lost. And so at that point I was like, I think I need to talk to somebody, right? So I found a therapist that took My insurance randomly. And it was sort of this godsend. And I went in and saw her, and she said, well, we’re going to talk about trauma. And I was like, oh, I don’t have trauma. And she was like, okay, well, let’s just talk about, like, sort of your history.

Sara Marler [00:05:31 – 00:05:59]

And we talked about it, and I’m like, see, I don’t have trauma. And she’s like, well, let me explain to you. There’s big T trauma and there’s little T trauma. And we kind of went through all this stuff. And I walked out of that session scratching my head, going, oh, my God, I have so much to unpack. So fast forward 20 years of therapy, right? So there’s a lot of that. And over the years, as I started learning, I started bringing the lessons I was learning naturally into sessions with clients. And so it just was bleeding in.

Sara Marler [00:05:59 – 00:06:37]

In the meantime, I then was talking with my firm about it a lot, and everybody was looking at me like I was sort of weird or odd or like, what. Why are you talking about trauma all the time? And I wasn’t doing a great job at explaining it. So I brought a trauma therapist in. We just happened to move into a new office, and we had therapists next door, and I invited one of them in to talk about trauma. I was like, you do it. You explain to them why I’m talking about trauma constantly. And so she started off by explaining about trauma informed care in the medical field. And while she was doing that, I was like, oh, my God, why are we not doing this in the legal field? And that was sort of my aha Moment.

Sara Marler [00:06:37 – 00:07:10]

And I think I went home that night and told Ramona, like, this is where it all comes together. Like, I had sort of had an identity crisis for a little while and was like, do I want to keep being a lawyer, or do I want to go back to school and become a psychologist? Like, really into this, you know, therapy and learning about all of the ways our minds work and how to improve ourselves and why we do the things that we do and how to hold space for other people. I hold a very core value in leaving people better that I found them and wanting my firm to do the same thing. And I went home that night and just said to her, like, this is where the firm is going. This is where it’s coming together. I finally have it.

Katie St. John [00:07:10 – 00:07:13]

So, Ramona, what was your response to that?

Ramona Gau [00:07:16 – 00:07:21]

I’m out of here. Well, and it really was. And I mean, I.

Sara Marler [00:07:21 – 00:07:23]

She did. She literally left the firm.

Ramona Gau [00:07:23 – 00:07:42]

I did. Oh, two years. Because I love being in the courtroom. I’m up for the fight. I am such a competitor that. That is really what was feeding my soul. And I was like, I don’t have time for this soft stuff, so you keep that going. Like, let’s, let’s do, do that.

Ramona Gau [00:07:42 – 00:08:20]

But I’m going to go over here for a while and keep trying cases. And I have now returned and I am learning, and I have learned that there is absolutely a place for that cutthroat litigator, along with this essentially gentle, trauma informed person. And it’s a, it is a skill. Like, I am learning. I was just in court this morning with a client and, like, I’m there to fight. We were. I mean, we were there for trial this morning and we ended up getting the whole case settled.

Sara Marler [00:08:20 – 00:08:20]

But.

Ramona Gau [00:08:21 – 00:09:12]

But there was a really difficult moment. And I just want to, like, put my head down and plow through, because that’s what I do. And I took a moment and employed some of these things I’ve learned from Brittany. I’m like, I’m just going to sit here and belly breathe for a second to make sure I can understand why this is becoming so difficult. And I see my client shaking and I’m just like, oh, okay, let’s check in and figure out what’s going on, because this is all good stuff. But my client’s not acting like this is good stuff. So, like, taking those moments is, quite frankly, helping me be a better attorney, helping my client leave in better shape. And also, like, the results that we’re getting in these cases are just so much better because we don’t have clients throwing up their hands and just wanting to walk away or just wanting to be done.

Mary Simon [00:09:12 – 00:09:13]

Oh, interesting.

Ramona Gau [00:09:13 – 00:09:14]

They’re in it with us.

Mary Simon [00:09:14 – 00:09:15]

Yeah, that’s interesting.

Sara Marler [00:09:15 – 00:09:26]

Well, and I would say that, like, I think what you’ve. I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, I think what you’ve recognized is the cutthroat litigator and the trauma informed layer can, can actually coexist in one person.

Ramona Gau [00:09:27 – 00:10:07]

They can, but it is a skill that is not easy. I mean, there’s this. There’s this Buddhist concept of gentleness, being brave and being courageous. And it essentially comes from the easy thing to do is to just fight. But when you have the ability to control yourself and approach someone with gentleness instead of just smashing them, you’re making that choice. And you always can go to the other side when you need to. But I also compare it to, like, driving a stick shift versus an automatic. Like, if anybody’s Ever driven a stick shift.

Ramona Gau [00:10:07 – 00:10:19]

You have more power, control, and it’s a heck of a lot more fun than when you’re in an automatic. And so that’s kind of how this whole concept in my own mind works, because it really is.

Katie St. John [00:10:20 – 00:10:55]

I think that’s so interesting. I’m just thinking about, like, I feel like nine times out of 10, I’m just going at, like, 110 miles per hour. And so the moment that you’re talking about that you had this morning, I guess it was you kind of being able to tell your brain, like, now, this is where we’re gonna just take a second. I do feel like that’d be useful. I’ve just. And I’m thinking about, like, my day, and, like, you know, in a deposition, and you’re just not getting answers, and it’s just becoming increasingly difficult, and you’re just like, I just want to fight now because you’re driving me nuts, you know? I don’t know. That’s a. I’m.

Katie St. John [00:10:55 – 00:10:57]

It sounds like a skill. I don’t have it. I’m not anywhere close.

Mary Simon [00:10:58 – 00:10:59]

I mean, I love.

Brittany Graham [00:10:59 – 00:10:59]

I’ve.

Mary Simon [00:10:59 – 00:11:33]

I’ve had a therapist since, like, 2017, I want to say. And the thing that’s so interesting about it is you actually can get pretty far with, I guess, an opposing counsel and AD in an adversarial situation if you aren’t yelling and screaming and kicking. And it’s so interesting. I remember, I think, maybe even a year into having a therapist. And by the way, my first therapy session, I went in, and she’s like, how do you feel? And I was like, I feel like I’m right. She’s like, so feelings. It’s like, happy, sad.

Ramona Gau [00:11:33 – 00:11:34]

Look at this wheel.

Mary Simon [00:11:37 – 00:12:07]

Color wheel. And was like, can you point to one? And I was like, so step number one is what I’m telling you I’m gonna do. And, like, this is what I’m gonna say in the conversation with this person. She’s like, okay, next time, I want you to pick a feeling like, you don’t even need to do it today. And so it’s like a long. It’s a long road of work. But then I got to a point in my. I think I was maybe two years out, and I was working against an attorney who every single thing was a fight.

Mary Simon [00:12:08 – 00:12:15]

Every single thing had to be. It was contentious the whole time, even down to, like, scheduling something. It.

Sara Marler [00:12:15 – 00:12:15]

It.

Mary Simon [00:12:15 – 00:12:40]

And I called her, and I just said, are you okay? And she was like, what. What are you talking about? And she’s probably like 25 years older than me, 30 years older than me. And I just was like, I don’t know, I just feel like every time we’re interacting, you’re so mad and I just like, are you okay? I just want to make sure you’re doing okay. And she was just silent on the phone and I was like, are you,

Sara Marler [00:12:40 – 00:12:41]

like, are you there?

Mary Simon [00:12:41 – 00:12:50]

I mean, I’m happy to work out the dates. I don’t mean to like, make you uncomfortable. She’s like, of course I’m fine. And I was like, that’s, that’s fine. I just, let’s just. We don’t need to talk about the dates even.

Ramona Gau [00:12:50 – 00:12:51]

Just.

Mary Simon [00:12:51 – 00:14:04]

I just wanted to make sure, like, you’re doing okay, like, genuinely, because you seem so angry, like just all the time. And I think it catches people off guard and I didn’t know it at the time that I was employing something that was being taught to me to do in those moments. But it is so helpful when you’re sitting with a client and someone’s mad and angry and you just kind of are like, let’s just count to ten for a second. You know what I mean? It’s like I, when, when we, when you all came to our office and the Marlowe law firm gave a presentation to all of us about employing these practices in your own office, it, it is kind of interesting. Having undergone several years of therapy and then hear an attorney talk about it, I’m like, duh, why aren’t all firms doing this? Because you immediately think about so many people in your life, whether they’re clients or your own colleagues or opposing counsel, where you’re thinking, wow, I know we could better, like our relationships could get better if we could all use these skills, but it is. And I would. I didn’t even think about that until this moment when Ramoni, you’re talking about the moment of pausing and that was the first time I ever did that. I was just like, it can’t be this hard.

Mary Simon [00:14:04 – 00:14:08]

Like, we don’t have to really be screaming at each other all the time, you know?

Ramona Gau [00:14:08 – 00:14:40]

I want to turn it back to you all. Unfortunately, I caught the first half of the presentation and then I had a pre planned phone call I had to go take, so I missed the second half. So it’s possible that this was addressed in the second half and maybe I just didn’t see it. But I, I feel like at least the, the what we’ve been talking about, my understanding of, of trauma. Informed lawyering seems to focus much on the. On attorneys ourselves, because we so often our cases are so. We’re dealing with so much trauma. I mean, certainly you all with divorce and family law.

Ramona Gau [00:14:40 – 00:15:24]

And then what we do here, my husband tells me all the time, he’s like, I don’t know how you do your job or how you go about the world seeing all the bad things you see all the time. And so there’s that one aspect. And then I knew about the aspect of being there for the client, which I think is frankly, like, that seemed the most important to me is. Is how do we help clients? But it sounds like. And Mary, what you sort of hinted at is this skill that you all have or this ability to almost flip a switch and be like, okay, I’m. I’m gonna jump now from being that cutthroat badass in the. In the courtroom to, okay, I’m gonna take a little bit softer now. Do you feel that that has improved your relationships with opposing counsels? And, Sara, I’m looking at you and you’re kind of smiling a little bit.

Sara Marler [00:15:25 – 00:16:10]

I’m smiling because the whole time you were talking, Mary, you were making me think of this case I had where I was dealing with my client’s son, who was representing himself after my client passed away. And he was extremely, very high powered. It was a very big deal divorce. And his father died after the divorce, and then my client died. And so we were dealing with the state issues that also impacted the divorce. So I had to be dragged it back into it. I knew he was bitter and angry because I had dealt with him during the divorce, also grown adults. And luckily I was in a really, really good place and had just been kicking this off around the time that I was dealing with him.

Sara Marler [00:16:10 – 00:16:45]

And so not only was he extremely, you know, high powered in the world and thought a lot of himself and very wealthy and knows a lot of people worldwide, but he also was just extremely bitter and angry because of the divorce, because of the relationship issues he had with his mother, whom I became very, very close to. So I knew quite a bit. And what was really interesting was I just made a point and I. And I literally wrote down what you did for. For that lady, whether she realizes it or not, was you made sure she was seen. Like she felt like whether she realized it or not, like she was seen.

Mary Simon [00:16:45 – 00:16:46]

Sure.

Sara Marler [00:16:46 – 00:17:18]

She was kind of checked on. And for me, my goal is, like, seen, heard, validated, right? With people, no matter who you are. And so, like, that was my approach with him. And I just did it over and over and Over. And at first he was nastier and nastier and nastier. And then he softened and he softened and he softened because quite frankly, unless you were in his family, right, nobody knew. And that is what I will try to do. Not always, but that is what I will try to do with opposing counsel if I need to.

Sara Marler [00:17:19 – 00:18:23]

Fortunately, I am lucky. A lot of us lawyers in family law world is a smaller bar, and we do tend to get along and we do tend to stay professional. But I was just having this conversation yesterday and actually again this morning with someone about lawyers, and when we start getting really ridiculous with each other and start fighting with each other, and I really start to question, like, are you now starting to put your own stuff before the ethics? It’s kind of an ethics issue because now you’re starting to put your own stuff before your client’s interest. I do think that the way to disarm the other person is to do exactly. What you’re talking about is, can I just get control of myself for a minute and find a way to make that other person feel seen or heard or validated with whatever it is that’s happening. I talk about this a lot in divorce cases. What I really see and what I will call out frequently is the lawyers will often mirror the fighting habits of the parties. And the second I can see that that’s what I’m doing, then I will literally say it together.

Katie St. John [00:18:23 – 00:18:23]

Lawyer.

Sara Marler [00:18:24 – 00:18:53]

So, for example, I have a case right now where my client is constantly the pursuer in the relationship, right? She’s nitpicks constantly. And the other side, it just goes silent, right? Runs away. And I noticed, oh, my gosh, this is what’s happening with me in opposing counsel. She’s nitpicking me. So I’m nitpicking him, right? He’s not responding. Right. Other side’s not responding.

Mary Simon [00:18:53 – 00:18:55]

You’re like, wait, now we need lawyers for us?

Sara Marler [00:18:55 – 00:19:22]

And then I was like, oh, God, we’re doing it. But not every lawyer recognizes that or realizes it. And so I called opposing counsel, and I’m like, we’ve taken on the fighting patterns of these folks. And he’s like, what? And I’m like, okay, just hear me out for a minute. I think he thought I was insane. And I was like, so I have this trauma informed law firm, and let me kind of explain to you why this is important for you to understand. And, you know, I explained it to him and. And he’s like, oh.

Sara Marler [00:19:22 – 00:19:44]

And I said, right. And if we keep doing this, it’s going to get no one anywhere, because guess what? This fighting pattern did not resolve their marriage or their issues, and it’s certainly not going to work in resolving their divorce. So can we recognize what we’re doing and stop it? So that’s kind of what I see more than I do. Just us being, like, ridiculously mean to each other.

Mary Simon [00:19:44 – 00:19:45]

Yeah.

Sara Marler [00:19:45 – 00:19:46]

But we do have that.

Ramona Gau [00:19:47 – 00:20:41]

Well, and I think a fear that we have as attorneys is that if we are not in taking that power and control with the other attorney, then we’re not going to get as good of a result for our client, and we’re not stepping up and doing our job. And I’ve actually never connected this before, but I’m like, oh, how interesting. I wasn’t even trying. But back in. It’s like 2015, 2016, I was in the jury trial. I’d gotten up and given my closing, and then defense counsel got up and was giving his closing, and he turns around to my counsel table, picks up my file and starts going through my file. And when I’m in trial, like, it is organized, is in place, I need to be able to have my hands on whatever exhibit I need within 5 to 10 seconds. And so I literally said to him, and so I’m in front of the jury at that point, and I said, stop, what do you need? And he tells me, and I pull out my purple folder and I hand him his photo.

Ramona Gau [00:20:41 – 00:20:47]

And for the next half hour, during his closing, I turned myself into his assistant, or he turned me into his assistant.

Brittany Graham [00:20:47 – 00:20:48]

Oh, my gosh.

Ramona Gau [00:20:48 – 00:20:54]

But at the. In the moment, like, my. I did not want to be in that role, but I’m also. I’m in front of the jury, and

Sara Marler [00:20:54 – 00:20:55]

I don’t want to.

Ramona Gau [00:20:55 – 00:21:22]

I didn’t want to look like a total jerk. Right. So fast forward, I won the trial. I got back to my office and actually got a call from the judge, and he said, we. Once the jurors are actually stuck around, are you able to come back to the courtroom? And that’s always a fun moment as an attorney talking to the jurors afterwards. And when I went back in, there were three or four jurors that remained. One of them was the foreman. And he wanted to shake my hand.

Ramona Gau [00:21:22 – 00:21:41]

And he said, the reason that you won this trial, essentially, was because we knew that you weren’t there about winning or losing. You were there just to do the right thing and fight for what was right, though, how you helped him. He was like, why did you do that, sir? I did not want to.

Mary Simon [00:21:43 – 00:21:46]

You’re like, I’m home thinking about it when I got called back up here.

Brittany Graham [00:21:47 – 00:21:47]

Correct.

Ramona Gau [00:21:47 – 00:22:06]

And, you know, I look at this concept of being a cutthroat litigator and always wanting to go in and fight, fight, fight. And there’s also room for the other side of all of that. And there’s so much integrity that we carry as attorneys that come with how we treat people.

Katie St. John [00:22:06 – 00:22:27]

I think it’s an interesting. I’m just thinking, like, personally, for myself, one, being, like, a female litigator, right? Like, you have, like, one of two maybe stereotypes. You’re like, you’re gonna be the badass. And, you know, you’re gonna. You want that reputation. I don’t know, maybe you do, maybe don’t, but. Or you’re gonna be, like, soft and then get walked all over. So it’s like somewhere in.

Katie St. John [00:22:27 – 00:23:03]

Like, I’ve been here for about a year now, and at my prior firm, I did litigation, but it was on a much smaller scale and like. Like, smaller value cases. And so I didn’t have it happen. And then I stepped when I started at Simon, and the. It’s just like, bigger cases and, you know, attorneys that have. On the other side, nine times out of 10, have been doing this longer than me. You just feel like sometimes your back’s up against a wall and you’re like, if I don’t make a point, then, you know, they’re going to walk over me or whatever it is. And I think that what I’m kind of learning right now is taking it all in, is you can still make your point and get that across, but in a different way.

Katie St. John [00:23:03 – 00:23:08]

That is also probably healthier for me as a person at the end of the day.

Mary Simon [00:23:08 – 00:24:05]

Also, I was going to ask Brittany about that, too, because I feel like that is the balance, where you’re just like, you’ll be in a room, and if you’re the only female attorney and you’re sitting there and sometimes you’re thinking, there’s an argument that’s happening right now that I could end in two minutes, especially if there was another woman in the room. But then you think, but the proposal that I’m asking includes feelings and acknowledgement of people, and that won’t be received well. It’ll be perceived maybe as weak. And I feel like, at least for me, the longer that I practice the way that I want to practice, the easier it is to kind of let it go. But I don’t know if that’s something that you’re supposed to constantly be because you have to read a Room. It’s part of being a lawyer. You read a room, you know, if you’re in front of a jury that you need to help with the folder, even if you don’t want to do it right. So you’re, you know how to employ the skills that you need to, to get you and your client to, you need to be.

Mary Simon [00:24:06 – 00:24:58]

But I still find myself leaving rooms sometimes being like, I know that all of them think I’m like a big softy for doing this, but they’re not going to be trying my case, I’m going to be trying my case, so who gives a shit? Just, you know. But I’m curious like, how, like what you would tell, you know, an audience of majority female listeners or even female professionals, whether they’re lawyers or not, of. There’s so much power and dipping into that softer side and employing the things that, you know, you teach us to do. And then on the other side of our brain we’re doubting, like, but if we say that then will the, will the client think that like the older male lawyer is supposed to be handling these phone calls or will like that and it dissipates. I feel like the longer you practice, the more confident you get. But like, yeah. What do you, I mean, what do you think about that? Is it just like, let it go?

Brittany Graham [00:24:59 – 00:25:11]

I actually don’t think let it go is even a thing ever. It’s too hard in life because we just can’t as humans, let things go. I usually say let it be. Just accept that it. Now I’m using the word accept very broadly here.

Ramona Gau [00:25:11 – 00:25:11]

Sure.

Brittany Graham [00:25:11 – 00:25:14]

This is a small, quiet room and it’s very hard to get into.

Mary Simon [00:25:14 – 00:25:14]

Right.

Brittany Graham [00:25:15 – 00:26:18]

But I think this idea of just letting it be what it is and the thing that I kind of heard you say is like, okay, I have all these thoughts which I think particularly for females and not to discount whatever feelings men have, but in male dominated fields, right, like, it is hard for women to, to think about the approach that we take versus the approach that a man might take and the grace that they may be offered with certain approaches that we as females may not be offered. Right. So I think that there’s a place for us to think about, as you said, read the room, think about your audience, how I’m approaching this. The other thing I heard you say that was interesting to me is like, okay, if I’m having thoughts about how my client is going to perceive something or question, are they gonna really feel like that was too much or not enough? Am I fighting for them? I Just talked to my client about it, which I hear our attorneys do all the time. In fact, it’s one of the eight things we tell our clients when we onboard them or when they retain. We do a welcome meeting and we talk about openly. Like, here are things we want you to know, and number one is we’re always on your side, but we may not move the way you actually think that we should move, and there’s always gonna be a reason why. So we should talk about that.

Brittany Graham [00:26:18 – 00:26:55]

If I didn’t say something to opposing counsel that you think that I should have said, if I didn’t yell at them when you thought I should have, that’s literally something we talk about. Yeah, I want you to tell me that and let. Let me walk you through what the strategy was. And I think our attorneys do a great job of actually just getting ahead of that altogether and saying, hey, this room might look a certain way, be a certain dynamic. And so I’m going to take an approach that I’m not sure how you feel about it. Let’s explore this a little bit. So I think some of the, like, yeah, some of it is just letting it be what it is, and that we’re always going to have some level of uncomfortable feeling after we have made these decisions to move a certain way in a room. But I think it also is an opportunity for us to just talk through

Mary Simon [00:26:55 – 00:26:57]

this and, like, name it.

Brittany Graham [00:26:57 – 00:27:02]

Yeah, Literally just say it out loud and let’s have the conversation that’s so

Sara Marler [00:27:02 – 00:27:35]

helpful with the clients, particularly. I mean, obviously it’s different when the clients aren’t present. And I thinking that’s probably more your example. But when the clients are present ahead of time, we try as much as possible to sort of choreograph for them what this is going to look like. You know, I will like going into a mediation, attorney assistant mediation. A lot of times in our scenarios, if it’s appropriate and we have clients present, I tell them ahead of time, like, here is what is going to be expected. Here’s likely what I’m going to do. Here’s likely what I’m going to say.

Sara Marler [00:27:35 – 00:28:06]

And a lot of times that’s going to look like me reaching across the table and validating the other side, because that’s what’s going to help us get where we need to get ultimately. And that might make you feel a little icky, but I need you to know why I’m doing it, what the strategy is, and are you okay with that? And it’s incredible, like, how that can work. And how it can, like, bring people together. On the other hand, like, you need to know your client, you need to know the other side. You need to know your case. You know the audience. Right. Like, I mean, I’ve had.

Sara Marler [00:28:06 – 00:28:40]

I’ve seen cases happen. I’ve talked to other law firms. We had a law firm we talked to where they were doing a mediation, and it was an employment discrimination case, and it went wrong really quickly. Like, they had their client present for the entire mediation. And it was definitely one of those where the client was like, just give me whatever and get me out of here. And so when we talked it through with them afterwards of, like, how that could have gone differently from, like, a trauma informed approach, it’s like, your client should never have been in the room. Your client could not hear what the media was saying. It was way too triggering.

Sara Marler [00:28:40 – 00:29:04]

Your client could not handle seeing the other side. Your client was in distress throughout the entire mediation. Brain was hijacked, could not make good decisions. Taking a more trauma informed approach would have been an ideal situation. Yes. They have to be present. Put them somewhere else. Have a Britney with them before it even starts.

Sara Marler [00:29:04 – 00:29:28]

Let’s walk through different scenarios, walk through different options of what this could look like. Role play it if you need to, and make sure that they are, quote, online is what we talk about or regulated. Right. And if they get dysregulated, be able to recognize it and figure out how to get them back in their body so that they’re making good decisions. Because at the end of that mediation, you had a client and a lawyer who both walked away disappointment, disappointed, I

Katie St. John [00:29:28 – 00:29:49]

guess, when you implemented this at your firm, because now you’re saying you guys use terminology like online or regulated. So these are things that you’re all kind of doing together as a team. How long do you. Did you feel like there was a period of time where you’re like, we’re still training, or like, aha, our staff has it, or like, how does that work in real life at your firm?

Sara Marler [00:29:50 – 00:30:27]

So we are always training. It’s continuous. We do quarterly trainings, but we’ve been doing trainings for a while. It’s been a few years of training, but I would say, like, this year with Brittany implemented, we finally have it where I like it. But will I tell you it’s where it’s going to stay? No, I expect we will continue to improve. But this year, like, Brittany and I have worked really hard together with the team to implement what we refer to as a minimum standard of care on how our cases Are worked up how our clients are approached at each stage. You know, there’s no more. Like, here’s a packet of paperwork, fill it out and when you get it back to us, then we’ll talk about the next thing.

Sara Marler [00:30:27 – 00:31:03]

Because guess what happens? You get half asked information, half filled out packets, it’s not useful. And then we’ve all. I know, we’ve all had the moment where you’re like, I’m sorry, why didn’t you tell me that fact three months ago? Would have been really nice to know. Well, guess what? They were hijacked when they were filling out that 30 page packet, right? Or when they met with whomever they were meeting with the first time. It was too much. And they couldn’t handle that 30 minute meeting or that hour long meeting. Or they could only think to tell you so many things. Or whoever was meeting with them didn’t realize that they were sitting with their shoulders up to their ears the whole time.

Sara Marler [00:31:03 – 00:31:33]

And that was a clue to you, right? That you weren’t trained to pick up on, that they’re not in their body. And so now we do it very differently. We have our initial consultation after that and they decide to hire. That very first meeting, there is no lawyer present. It is Brittany and our client, relationship manager. And we are not talking about the law, we are just talking about like, here’s a chance to hear your story. You don’t have to fill out a thing. Brittany is going to do all the writing for you.

Sara Marler [00:31:34 – 00:32:12]

And it is phenomenal the amount of information we now get versus what we never got before. And what’s really incredible and we just had this happen. Brittany and I were talking about this recently was we had a client that, you know, I had had a few meetings with Brittany and met with and they continuing to work together. And that client, because he’s got such a great relationship with her, which this is the whole goal, right. Has been able to say to her. Sara talks too fast. Can you talk to her about it? Yes, this is what I want, right? Like I need a safe person for you to convey whatever it is, right? Or whatever, insert whatever. Sara talks too fast.

Sara Marler [00:32:12 – 00:32:14]

Okay, cool. I hope that’s the worst complaint ever. But guess what?

Ramona Gau [00:32:14 – 00:32:16]

It won’t be, right?

Sara Marler [00:32:16 – 00:32:48]

It won’t be. But that’s what I want. I want them to have somebody that they can go to and complain to or vent to or express whatever it is they need to. And then we can discuss that. There are a lot of, there’s a lot of information that, you know, that client was able to share or there’s been times when this is another favorite story I have where, you know, Ramona and Brittany were on a call together and Ramona hit mute and said, why can’t she just answer my question? Brittany’s like, because she’s in shame. And you’re like, okay, thank you very much.

Ramona Gau [00:32:49 – 00:32:50]

Literally, that’s what I want.

Brittany Graham [00:32:50 – 00:32:51]

She unmuted. And

Ramona Gau [00:32:53 – 00:33:01]

so, yeah, for our listeners that might be wondering, how do you employ attorney client privilege in terms of Britney’s role within the front and in explaining that to clients?

Sara Marler [00:33:01 – 00:33:36]

That’s great, great question. So Britney is sort of our, our in house expert, right? And she has, it’s, it’s been so useful. Everything she does is privileged, right? So it’s covered under the blanket of she’s our employee, she works for us, she’s our in house expert. What they discuss with her is covered by attorney client privilege. It is useful because they’re able to give more information to her. She’s able to ask questions in a way that I am not skilled to do. But what’s also really been helpful, I’m going to, I know this is beyond your question, but I’m going to just say this because I think it’s important. Important is then afterwards we meet.

Sara Marler [00:33:36 – 00:34:22]

So Brittany and I meet after she has that welcome meeting with the client and gets, we shorten it to welcome meeting, but it’s really welcome meeting, information gathering. And we’re able to then have a conversation where she’s able to give me information and say, I think this is how your client processes information best. So, you know, short calls, don’t upload long letters. You know, this client is going to have a hard time hearing things they don’t want to hear. So maybe frame it this way or that. I mean, whatever it is, right, here’s extra supports that we need to get in place for this client. We really brainstorm and it’s very, very helpful because then we’re again treating the whole person, not just the case. And one little issue that’s in front of us and we’re able to help, I think the client in a much better way with a resolution.

Ramona Gau [00:34:22 – 00:34:43]

And the way that Brittany’s role works in the office is no different than any one of our paralegals. And she’s, I mean, for a lack of a better term, she’s an overqualified paralegal with the, you know, the trauma, informed knowledge. And so, I mean, just like privilege is going to apply to any other of our office staff, it applies to her.

Brittany Graham [00:34:43 – 00:34:53]

I Actually think the sitting with is one of the hardest things that I’ve noticed for our attorneys in general, because there’s everything is go, go, go all the time, whereas I’m the exact opposite.

Ramona Gau [00:34:53 – 00:34:53]

Right.

Brittany Graham [00:34:53 – 00:35:24]

My whole job is to sit back and listen to people. So when we’re doing things like statements of income and expense and statement of property or a mandatory document exchange, those processes are overwhelming for anybody. Right. We’re asking you to produce documents that a lot of our clients don’t even. They don’t even know where to get them from. I don’t have a login to this account to even pull the statement that you’re asking for. So you can imagine you’re already going through a stressful and traumatic experience of having to retain a lawyer for a major life transition that you may or may not want. Right.

Brittany Graham [00:35:24 – 00:35:54]

And then we’re asking you to. Oh, by the way, we have like a overview sheet of. Here’s what we’re going to need for financials that I review with them at their welcome meeting just to get them started thinking about there’s going to be this big thing coming. Don’t worry about it because I will sit with you if needed. And so what we’ll do is I’ll a lot of times schedule, and then we’ll break down this giant task into much smaller tasks. And then I will literally just sit with them and say, okay, we need to pull this statement. Let’s log into this account. I mean, I’ve literally been on the phone with Geico and clients and just sat next to me to them.

Brittany Graham [00:35:54 – 00:36:00]

And I think the only difference is that my patience might be a little bit more expanded by nature of my trade.

Ramona Gau [00:36:01 – 00:36:04]

To the attorney by the roof, there’s no mind, definitely.

Brittany Graham [00:36:04 – 00:36:05]

But I can also absorb a lot

Ramona Gau [00:36:05 – 00:36:07]

of that vigorous head shake there.

Brittany Graham [00:36:08 – 00:36:17]

I can absorb a lot of that emotional turmoil that comes along with. There’s a lot of realization that comes along with knowing that you’re 45 and have no idea how to pull your car insurance.

Sara Marler [00:36:17 – 00:36:30]

That is the piece that’s even more important for these clients is that you are able to help them move through some of the shame that they feel around that in a way that, like, we could never do.

Brittany Graham [00:36:31 – 00:36:33]

And it’s. I mean, it’s also. So part of it is managing the emotion.

Katie St. John [00:36:33 – 00:36:34]

Right.

Brittany Graham [00:36:34 – 00:36:53]

Which I’m literally trained to do. So I have a leg up on, on a lot of folks at our firm in that regard. But a lot of it is also just validating. Like, you didn’t have a reason to Pull this before, right? Like, you didn’t need to log into your GEICO account because the other party was handling all of it. That makes total sense, right? And it’s, by the way, super simple. Who’s your. Who has your carnagers? Geico.

Ramona Gau [00:36:53 – 00:36:54]

Cool.

Brittany Graham [00:36:54 – 00:37:22]

There’s a website for this. Maybe we have to call them and get a login, but that’s easy peasy. And in five minutes, once they’re realizing that, oh, I can do this, it actually can turn into, like an empowering sort of moment. Which is one of the pillars of trauma informed care, right? Is empowerment, voice and choice. So making sure that they’re able to feel safe expressing, hey, I’m sorry, I really don’t know how to do this. And many of them will literally cry and, and say, I really can’t believe that I don’t have a clue how to do this. And then I exist to say, it’s all good. I’m right here with you.

Brittany Graham [00:37:22 – 00:37:53]

Let’s do this. I often refer to myself with clients as the emotional support human, because I really just exist to sit with. And if you’ve ever been to therapy, you’ve probably had a therapist say this to you at some point, like, you gotta learn how to sit with that, right? So whether it’s shame, whether it’s guilt, whether it’s sadness, anger, whatever it is, I can sit with that all day because I’m trained to do that, right? And to not absorb it myself to the best of my ability. And so that gives clients an additional human at the firm to have that support to get those major tasks done.

Mary Simon [00:37:53 – 00:38:39]

I mean, even that’s amazing because I’m thinking about how many times a client can’t get you the information because they’re too ashamed that they can’t do that. I mean, I didn’t even have the thought as you were talking, oh, well, someone else in your house did this, so it makes sense that you wouldn’t. Because I probably have my own shame that I’m caring about basic things that I wouldn’t know how to access. But, like, even you saying that, I’m like, oh, oh, duh, that makes sense. But. But now I just think about all, like, the forms and paperwork and stuff that we need that clients just don’t respond. And it’s like, oh, it’s probably because you’ve opened up your phone or your computer, if you have one 600 times and felt too overwhelmed and ashamed and closed it, and then you just wait to get the next phone call from the law firm, being like, so can you get it to us by Friday? Yeah.

Katie St. John [00:38:39 – 00:39:06]

And I feel like there’s probably also a certain Where. Like a certain part of that for the client where it’s hard, because I feel like sometimes when you’re meeting with clients and prepping them, like, they don’t want to disappoint me, or they don’t want to ruin their case, or they don’t want to do something wrong in my eyes as the attorney. And it’s like, for you being able to kind of not have to wear that hat ever with them, there’s not, like, an added layer of pressure or, like, an additional barrier.

Ramona Gau [00:39:06 – 00:39:11]

Oh, they tell her everything that they don’t want to tell us. It’s. It’s really, really helpful.

Sara Marler [00:39:11 – 00:39:27]

Well, and. And I think you make a great point. And to that end, I mean, I think we had that come up in a mediation recently. So I’ve started bringing poor Brittany. She gets dragged into everything now. So I’ve started bringing her to mediations. And we had a mediation recently, and I. And it was interesting because I’m kind of going back.

Sara Marler [00:39:27 – 00:39:46]

So we had to. We had to separate. We had to caucus. So we had separate parties in separate rooms, and the lawyers were kind of running back and forth, forth, and the mediator was running back and forth. But Brittany sat with my client the entire time. And every time I got up and walked out, then she would say more to Brittany. And then what played into that was her worry about what I was thinking. And so then Brittany was able to say, sarah’s not going to care.

Sara Marler [00:39:46 – 00:39:58]

She just wants to make sure that you understand what you’re doing, what you’re deciding, and how this impacts your future. And so I think at some point, you, like, struck a deal with her, that she was going to tell me certain things when I came back in.

Brittany Graham [00:39:59 – 00:40:06]

We had our own code terms and everything for what we would do to. In case anybody noticed it was on to us. We had code terms.

Sara Marler [00:40:06 – 00:40:09]

Right. Which is also, like.

Mary Simon [00:40:09 – 00:40:09]

It’s a.

Sara Marler [00:40:09 – 00:40:33]

In fairness, like, being super vulnerable with you guys is a little hard for me to hear because I’m like. But I thought I was so approachable. But I can also tell, like, I know when I’m in mediation mode. Right. And especially on this case with this other party who I hated. Like, I did. I did not like what he was doing to her. There’s no way she could.

Sara Marler [00:40:33 – 00:40:58]

There’s no way to avoid her feeling that. And then knowing my client, I’m sure she was absorbing it as a reflection on her. When really, it was completely directed at the other side. So thank God I had Britney there. Right. Because I could have done a big disservice to my client where she’s just sitting and holding. Right. Even though I was saying things like, are you sure that wasn’t enough? Like, she needed more.

Sara Marler [00:40:58 – 00:41:01]

She had way more. And Brittany was able to do that.

Brittany Graham [00:41:01 – 00:41:33]

Yeah. We also, I mean, just having someone be present, like, connection is a biological imperative. None of us thrive without human connection. So mediation is really boring. If you’re separated and your attorney’s going back and forth, you’re already anxious, you already are nervous that the outcome that you’re hoping to get is really what is going to be best for you in 10 years once you’re self settled. A lot of our clients will say, well, I don’t know what I want, and you’re asking me to make decisions for way out here, and I’m not even able to accept where I’m at today. Right. And then you have to sit in a room by yourself.

Brittany Graham [00:41:33 – 00:41:46]

Right. So one thing we’ll do is like, bring. I was yo yoing with a client in mediation a couple weeks ago. Like, just. We bring fidget toys, and one of our clients dumped out all of our fidget toys. I didn’t realize. She. She was like, I accidentally took these from the office and dumped them on the table.

Brittany Graham [00:41:46 – 00:42:13]

I was like, okay, cool. Oh, my God, Take those back and turn them. So, I mean, just having someone again, going back to kind of just sitting with. It’s a big deal to just have a human to connect with during a time that is challenging. So even beyond the. Okay, let’s figure out what we need to tell Sara, which is a huge part of what comes up in mediations, actually. But beyond that, it’s also. We’ve got 25 minutes before we’re going to see her again.

Brittany Graham [00:42:13 – 00:42:19]

What are we going to do in the meantime to keep you from spiraling all the way down the rabbit hole of how awful this situation is?

Katie St. John [00:42:20 – 00:42:42]

This has been such a great conversation so far, so thank you all for sharing in part two. We are going to continue the conversation with Sara, Britney and Ramona. Until next time, thank you for listening to our episode. We drop episodes every other Wednesday and you can find us wherever you listen to podcast. If you have any questions or comments, reach out to us at Comments at Heels in the Court. Thank you so much.

Brittany Graham [00:42:42 – 00:42:43]

We’ll talk to you next time.

Sara Marler [00:42:46 – 00:43:17]

Thanks for listening to Heels in the Courtroom at the Simon law Firm. We know that trial success isn’t just about experience. It’s about strategy, resources, and the power of collaboration. That’s why attorneys across the country partner with us to strengthen their cases and deliver justice for their clients. If you’re interested in working with our team of seasoned trial lawyers, call 314-241-2929. And if you enjoyed the podcast, be sure to subscribe and send us your thoughts at heelsinthecourtroom Law.

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