Stop Waiting for the Perfect Plan to Grow Your Law Firm, with Richard Carr

Episode Notes

Transcript

Stephanie Everett [00:00:00]:
Hi, I’m Stephanie.

Zack Glaser [00:00:02]:
And I’m Zack, and welcome to The Lawyerist Podcast, one of the many ways we help lawyers build healthier firms, better businesses, and more sustainable lives. Today, Stephanie talks with Lab Coach, Lab Strategist Richard Carr about— well, Stephanie, what do you guys talk about?

Stephanie Everett [00:00:19]:
We talk about identifying your big goals and then breaking that out so that you actually can get things done.

Zack Glaser [00:00:25]:
Oh. I like that. Okay. Well, today’s episode is brought to you by Smith AI. So I talk with Maddie Martin here in a minute. So stick around for that.

Stephanie Everett [00:00:37]:
Well, Zack, we’re just back from LabCon. Maybe we should chat about that. One of our— one of the events we do around here. I feel like, well, you and I are back from like 3 events. We’ve just like toured the world together, the country. We did rotation around, but we We wrapped it up in Atlanta at LabCon this past week, and I feel like saying like it was a success.

Zack Glaser [00:00:58]:
Yeah, it was a success. I mean, it always is a success because like what we’re, what we’re looking at is kind of putting the, putting pen to paper with people, you know, like getting actual things done. And so we’re always going to get things done. We’re always going to move people’s firms forward. We actually added a section this year where we came in for half a day before everything and did just kind of like high-end AI stuff with people. And that was amazing. That was awesome.

Stephanie Everett [00:01:37]:
Yeah, because people got to build on site with us. And yeah, I mean, maybe the way I should have asked you is like, we went to multiple conferences. You and I attended a conference as attendees, like a national conference that had nothing to do with legal. kind of more on the marketing world, but in business. Then we hung out at 8 AM’s conference called Kaleidoscope. And then we wrapped it up with LabCon and this AI workshop. And I’m kind of curious if you kind of take a step back and think about that whole progression of the 3 weeks and everything we did, what are some kind of big takeaways that you’re kind of leaving all of, leaving that month with?

Zack Glaser [00:02:15]:
I really think, Kind of 2 things. One is, is just like the practical work that you can do with, with artificial intelligence inside of platforms. And that’s something that I’ve been, you know, working with and we’ve been working with, um, for a while. 2 though is the, the benefit of getting your context into the place where your AI can connect to it. And it, it doesn’t always have to be the same place, you know, it doesn’t have to be, but getting your context, your notes, your files, as much information as you can about what you do and how you do it into one spot and then turning your AI on it, turning your LLM on it. Like that was a theme kind of across the whole thing.

Stephanie Everett [00:03:01]:
And I think for me too, it was also sort of the point you made about LabCon. Like when we went as participants, we got a ton of great ideas. And by the end of day 2, I was like, I’m filled up on ideas now. I’m ready to go do this work, which is always the hard part because when do you have time to execute and do the work? And it just really made me appreciate, honestly, you know, not to pat our own backs, but let’s just say like, made me really appreciate what we do with LabCon where we don’t just fill people up with ideas, but we actually give them some space to start working with it and get it done. And I think that that’s such a valuable reminder and maybe even a reminder that when we go to those conferences, You know, in an ideal world, we’d all stay an extra day so that we could have that time to collaborate as a team. Who was there? What are our takeaways? How do we get started building this? Because as you know, you leave the conference on this amazing high. You’re just like, that was, I mean, maybe the introverts don’t leave. They, they might leave also exhausted.

Stephanie Everett [00:04:01]:
I get that.

Zack Glaser [00:04:03]:
Yeah. I mean, I think we all, we all leave exhausted, but, you know, we had, we, we had, uh, debriefs for everything that we did. And even those intentional, specific debriefs for an hour or 2 hours, they still don’t feel like enough. And even when you go into those debriefs and you create tasks and you move forward, it still doesn’t feel like enough, the actually taking time. And I think you’re right that it might take an entire day to kind of break things down that you did.

Stephanie Everett [00:04:34]:
Yeah, which is often hard because you’ve just been out for 3 days at the event. So I appreciate what I’m saying is super hard.

Zack Glaser [00:04:41]:
Yeah.

Stephanie Everett [00:04:41]:
But, um, you know, it’s maybe good advice for the— for our friends who, if you’re feeling FOMO, like, I didn’t get to go to any of those conferences with Zack and Stephanie, there’s, there’s another one coming up. So Clio’s conference is at the end of this month, the end of October, 26th, 27th. I think we’re going to start on that. They start that Monday morning.

Zack Glaser [00:04:59]:
Yeah, 26th, 27th. You’re right.

Stephanie Everett [00:05:01]:
In Boston. They just announced, by the way, so if you’re hearing this and you think, well, that’s crazy, I don’t have time to go, you know, pack Pack my bags and go to Boston. You might be a little late for that, but they just announced a virtual edition that they’re opening up the registration absolutely free, which is great. So this is—I mean, I tell everybody—even if you don’t use Clio, these keynotes, the conversations that we’re having there are going to impact you; they’re going to help you. So there’s no cost. Sign up for the virtual ClioCon and check out some of the the messages there, some of the talks, some of the keynotes for sure. I think you’ll. You’ll be glad you did.

Zack Glaser [00:05:38]:
Yeah. I mean, I think they’ve got Malcolm Gladwell, Ethan Mollick. I mean, they’ve got some big stuff there. So yeah. Now here is my conversation withMaddy Martin from Smith AI, and then Stephanie’s conversation with our lab strategist, Richard Carr.

Maddy Martin [00:06:09]:
I’mMaddy, and I’m the GM of Legal at SmithAI.

Zack Glaser [00:06:13]:
Hey,Maddy. Thanks for being with me again. We’ve had you on the show a couple times, and I always appreciate your perspective, your thoughts, and all this. You’ve been in the legal sphere for a long time. You’ve been at SmithAI for a while. Give me just quickly what SmithAI is in case our listeners are are, are just being introduced to it?

Maddy Martin [00:06:35]:
Yeah, I’ve been at SmithAI almost as long as we’ve been around. Uh, SmithAI started back in 2015, and we do end-to-end intake for attorneys, mostly small and mid-sized firms. So what that means is that we’re not just answering and screening leads and other callers, but we’re completing intake, uh, scheduling appointments, and even sending out retainers.

Zack Glaser [00:06:58]:
Awesome. Well, I’m just going to jump right in,Maddy, because you and I have talked about intake and leads and things like that many times. But we saw each other recently at Kaleidoscope, 8 AM’s conference, and we’ve gotten to talking lately about the way in which people might do intake. Obviously, Smith.ai, there’s a certain amount of AI in there. There’s a certain amount of human in there. Um, but we’ve talked about kind of the goals of intake before, and I think people miss that when they get into conversations of, of the how of doing intake, and they, they miss the why. Um, kind of talk to me about like, what’s the goal of, of intake? Like, what’s, what’s the point here?

Maddy Martin [00:07:47]:
The point is to move the needle forward with your most qualified leads. It’s not to simply answer the call. It’s not to simply offer a little bit better than voicemail. I often say, you know, just picking up the call and taking details— what’s the point in a receptionist doing that? It’s glorified voicemail. It’s just, you know, not setting an expectation for the next step, and it’s certainly not stopping the search for that lead to find a law firm and hire a law firm that they can, uh, trust to work on their matter because they’re just stuck in limbo wondering what happens with that message I just left with that person or AI.

Zack Glaser [00:08:34]:
Uh, I, I really like that, that phrase, like that, that stop the search. That kind of, kind of gets me. It’s like, I see attorneys that have these KPIs of, I’ve, you know, we’ve returned or answered phone calls in, in X amount of time, whatever it is. It’s like 3 seconds or something. If you just answer the phone and take a message, or you just, you know, like, yeah, you get some information, you say, you know, we’ll call you back, or we’ll put you through the intake. Like, I mean, that’s a cool vanity KPI, but did it stop the search?

Maddy Martin [00:09:07]:
And did you even tell the qualified lead that they are a qualified lead? Because if you didn’t, I mean, you’re laughing, but I’ve never

Zack Glaser [00:09:17]:
thought about that before. That’s why I’m laughing now.

Maddy Martin [00:09:20]:
Unbelievable how often your most qualified leads are hanging up that phone call, that initial call, and they don’t know, did I just talk to the right firm for me or not? Am I a good fit for the firm? Are they going to accept my case? Should I stop calling firms or should I keep going? Because That uncertainty is not the feeling that you’re aiming for at the end of a phone call. I think we can all agree on that.

Zack Glaser [00:09:53]:
So again, you’ve been doing this a while. How do I, you know, how do I do that? How do I stop the search? Like what sort of kind of information? You and I have talked about maybe some questions that we could ask, but like, I’m an attorney, I’ve got my intake, I’ve got somebody answering my phone calls. I don’t know who’s calling in. How do I make it to where I can qualify them, I can get them to a place? I feel like I need to talk to them as the attorney.

Maddy Martin [00:10:19]:
We hear that a lot, that, you know, the attorney wants that control. And, you know, there’s a lot of good in that belief. And what I mean is, you know, you’re probably someone who takes your work very seriously. You are very discerning. You may have started your own firm because you like to do things your way, and that’s the way that works better for you and your clients. That’s wonderful. But at some point, in order to grow or to work on the things that you’re best at, you have to hand off certain aspects that are transferable, right? The legal work, not so easily transferable.

Zack Glaser [00:10:56]:
Right.

Maddy Martin [00:10:56]:
I’m not going to talk to you about, you know, hiring associates. That’s not my area of expertise. But what I can talk to you about is, you know, bringing on an intake team that can screen and qualify leads and Get the commitment for the next step that you need so that you can show up for those consultations that are scheduled and present your best self to that well-qualified client and keep the sales funnel full and rolling new business into your firm, right? So those questions that are most important at the top level, it’s location, jurisdiction, uh, and it’s practice area.

Zack Glaser [00:11:35]:
Yeah.

Maddy Martin [00:11:35]:
And that’s going to conditionally determine, do you— it’s a forking mechanism, right? Yeah. You determine who moves on from those 1 or 2 questions. From there, you ask more specific questions related to that type of case or matter, right? I mean, if it’s a dog bite versus an estate plan, you probably have some different questions you’re going to ask, and you might have different attorneys at your firm who practice in different areas. And those questions should be tailored to their areas. And after those questions are asked, then get the commitment for that next step, which is a transferred call to the attorney or a booked appointment for the future for whatever period of time makes sense for your firm.

Zack Glaser [00:12:20]:
So, what I’m kind of hearing there is that I could have a system, I could have kind of a protocol, and, you know, we have the entry questions like, What, you know, where are we? What’s our practice area? Based on that practice area, I can fork off into other sort of questions that would potentially, you know, qualify or disqualify. I think of it a lot of times as asking disqualifying questions, but would qualify or disqualify them. And then we get to this— again, I think of it as like this end node of like, okay, well, if it’s in estate planning, our estate planning attorney is gonna be in the office, so let’s just go ahead and crank it to them, um, if we can, you know. But our, you know, litigation attorney, our dog bite Oh, they might be in

Maddy Martin [00:13:02]:
court.

Zack Glaser [00:13:02]:
You know, they might be in court, Lord knows. And so we’re going to set up some sort of consultation based on their calendar. But this human, this person who has a problem called into our office and yes, great, we answered the phone. Awesome, neat. But then we also actually got them to the end place. But that requires knowing what those steps are. Like, does, does, and I, uh, does Smith.ai help with kind of some of those steps of like figuring out, you know, what do I do?

Maddy Martin [00:13:33]:
Of course. The, to me, the learning happens through action, not through quiet deliberation in your office alone, right? Um, so what I mean is, if you don’t take that first step to experiment with your intake with the goal of doing better, which means I am going to communicate to my qualified leads that they’re qualified, I’m I’m going to offer them a next step

Zack Glaser [00:13:59]:
and

Maddy Martin [00:13:59]:
I’m going to try my best to overcome their objections. If they say, well, I’m not ready to pay a $400 consultation fee, you know, is your intake team prepared to, um, reply to those objections and overcome them the best they can? Yeah. The intake is not just a process of, um, Q&A and data collection. It’s also a process of determining, well, how do I know that this person is going to be able to afford my services? even if on paper their case looks like a good fit for my firm, I can’t do everything pro bono. So I can’t do most things probably pro bono. So are— there are some questions over the years that our clients have asked us to ask that I have put in the corner of my, like, best practices in my so-called mental library, right? Okay. Which include, Questions about the wherewithal, on timing, and on payment. So, at this time, are you ready to make a commitment to working with an attorney to resolve this case or matter? Like, are you ready? That’s a timing, it’s a temporal question, right? Yeah.

Maddy Martin [00:15:12]:
Then there’s the question of, are you able to afford X, Y, or Z? It could be the consultation fee. It could be a minimum retainer amount. It could be saying that estate plans cost between $3,500 and $7,500. Is that within your budget? And that is a screening question just as much as the date of the accident and where you found at fault. You know, obviously I’m mixing metaphors here because, you know, PI is contingency, but you get my point.

Zack Glaser [00:15:42]:
Right, but I, I love that because I, I actually was, uh, you know, inside of lawyers looking for, for somebody to, to Um, you know, outsource some stuff that we do. Um, and in their form, in their, their actually their Calendly link, it said, is this within your budget? You know, is, is X within your budget? And I don’t see that much. And it didn’t turn me away.

Maddy Martin [00:16:06]:
Right.

Zack Glaser [00:16:07]:
If it wasn’t within my budget, it would have turned me away, you know, but, but like, I wasn’t like, oh, that’s a weird question to ask. No, that’s, it seemed like a very normal question to ask, but I would have never asked that, you know.

Maddy Martin [00:16:15]:
I like that question as a consumer. I think that it says,

Zack Glaser [00:16:20]:
yeah,

Maddy Martin [00:16:20]:
we’re going to have clear communication between the two of us. I’m not going to, you know, bury the lead and I can expect upfront communication from you. One of the best practices, um, I’ll shout out Joey Vitale with Indie Law here, trademark attorney. He has asked in his intake form over the years, which, you know, is in a calendaring tool. Mm-hmm. Um, just like you explained, uh, are you prepared to spend, I can’t remember the exact amount. Let’s say it’s $5,000 or more. Are you prepared to spend $5,000 at least to protect your brand? Yes or no? Right.

Maddy Martin [00:16:59]:
I mean, it’s adding that value layer in there. It’s not just, are you prepared to spend $5,000 period? It’s to value statement, to protect your brand. Right. And that’s an important connection that you as the attorney do not have to communicate, but someone can communicate on your behalf. Someone saying that for you is just fine. And then they’re prepared when you have the consultation to have more of that dialogue with you. And that pricing doesn’t become this black hole subject that no one wants to venture down.

Zack Glaser [00:17:35]:
Yeah, I love it. Well, Maddie, um, I always go way longer than I’m supposed to when I’m talking with you because you, you always have a, a, a wealth of knowledge on this, and I appreciate you sharing that with our, our listeners. If people want to learn more about this whole process, but specifically about Smith.ai, where can they go?

Maddy Martin [00:17:54]:
Just visit us at smith.ai. That’s our website. We are also offering a 25-call-per-month AI receptionist plan right now that is free to use. With our AI receptionist plans, Live agents are always available for backup, uh, so that you can have the AI hand off to a human at any point during that call. And we are uniquely able to offer that for law firms. And obviously we still have our live agents as its own separate plan if that better suits you.

Zack Glaser [00:18:29]:
Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you, Maddie. I, I always appreciate talking to you about this stuff. Thank you for being with me.

Maddy Martin [00:18:35]:
Thanks for having me.

Richard Carr [00:18:37]:
Uh, hello, my name is Richard Carr. I’m a strategist with Lawyerist, and I help small law firms get their business running more efficiently.

Stephanie Everett [00:18:48]:
Yeah. Hey, Richard, welcome to the show.

Richard Carr [00:18:50]:
Thanks for having me.

Stephanie Everett [00:18:51]:
So, um, you know, you’re a little bit newer— I say newer— newer to the Lawyerist team, but I guess you’ve actually been around for a while. So, you know, you’re— but maybe you still feel like the new guy to us sometimes. Sorry about that.

Richard Carr [00:19:03]:
Sometimes I do, but that’s all right.

Stephanie Everett [00:19:05]:
Yeah, I actually went and looked. I was like, oh, it’s, it’s been like over 6 months, maybe even longer, right?

Richard Carr [00:19:11]:
Yeah, it was March. Yeah.

Stephanie Everett [00:19:12]:
Obviously though, even though you’re new to us, you’ve been working with small businesses for a while. You’ve had your own businesses. So you came to the team with a wealth of information about all things business, small business, what they struggle with. Um, but I am kind of curious, since you’re a little bit newer to legal, how have you found that transition in terms of You know, sometimes us lawyers, we like to think we’re, we’re special, but I’m kind of curious, you know, what have you noticed working with law firms versus other small businesses?

Richard Carr [00:19:42]:
Well, the first thing was getting used to some of the lingo. It’s a little, obviously a little different than just your run-of-the-mill entrepreneurs and general business. But really the thing that has impressed me the most is that, you know, and I said this actually at LabCon, to an attendee was, you know, you are running 2 businesses at the same time, you know, in the sense that you are doing the legal side of the business and also trying to run, you know, all, you know, making it a successful business. You know, whereas a normal entrepreneur, I will say, you know, everyday entrepreneur, that is their business, that is their life, and that is running the business. And lawyers have 2 separate sides of this, which really takes their time. And so that’s a little bit unique, and I think it’s a special challenge, particularly to small law firms.

Stephanie Everett [00:20:30]:
There are some lawyers who are able to step away from the practice of law and just be on that business side, but a lot of lawyers don’t really want to do that. They like having— they like practicing. They like having a hand in, in the client-facing work.

Richard Carr [00:20:42]:
I think that’s part of, you know, honestly, you know, and one of the things that, um, I was introduced to when I came on with lawyers is the whole idea of the foundations work. And I really You know, and it’s really—I’ve really taken that to heart because I really do think that it makes a big difference when you figure out where it is that you’re really trying to go in developing your law firms. I used to have one of my favorite sayings with my other entrepreneurs that I used to mentor was, you know, goals make demands, and it’s a different way of saying basically the same thing. I have a goal. I want to reach this. part. And now what do we have to do to get there?

Stephanie Everett [00:21:20]:
So yeah, and that’s what we kind of wanted to dig into today. I love that goals make demands. So I think it starts right with the idea that you, you should have some goals.

Richard Carr [00:21:32]:
Yeah, I mean, you know, honestly, you know, foundations work set up, you know, you can’t get— how do I want to say this— like, you can’t get to where you’re going if you don’t know where you want to go. So in many respects, so, um, Once you set a goal, it really starts solidifying the steps that you have to take to reach it. Again, goals make demands. So if I want to get there, what has to be true between now and then to get there? And you can start answering these questions legitimately and start making the little tests you need to do to change your business and the way you operate in order to get there.

Stephanie Everett [00:22:06]:
Sometimes I’m curious from your perspective if you’ve found this to be the case, You know, um, I’ll say it, like lawyers, sometimes lawyers are perfectionists, right? And so I have worked with lawyers who’ve really struggled with that goal setting process because they don’t quite have it all figured out. And they’re like, well, I’m not exactly sure what my business is going to look like in 3 years, or if this is the right goal. And they almost kind of get really tripped up in the goal setting process itself. Have you experienced that?

Richard Carr [00:22:36]:
Yeah, definitely. I think the thing to understand is it’s never going to work out exactly as you think it will. Even the best laid plans, you know, we’ve all heard that phrase and that’s true. But, you know, I think I’ll bring in another thing that I’ve always said to entrepreneurs is fail quick and fail cheap, right? It’s been said many different ways, but you set a goal, you experiment, You put something in action, you make a process, see what works, what doesn’t work, and keep iterating until you get there. Um, and then, you know, as you go through it, you know, your goals might change. You know, that’s just the way it works. And then you adapt and, and change your thinking.

Stephanie Everett [00:23:19]:
When you’re helping firms start and set those goals, do you have any advice that you like to try to give, or how do you, how do you get them started down that road?

Richard Carr [00:23:29]:
Well, I basically, I like to say, you know, what is the life you want the business to support? And that’s usually where I start the conversation. And I think that goes right into the play of the foundation’s work that we try to do with small law firms. And usually that gets them starting to think, as opposed to what do I want my business to do? It’s what do I want my life to be like that my law firm supports? And I think that starts the process a little bit.

Stephanie Everett [00:23:56]:
And so I would imagine, yeah, that those are pretty powerful questions. And usually, I think, I think a lot of times lawyers start with those questions when they launch, but then they sort of just get a little lost. And then before they know it, they wake up and they have this firm and they have a job. And it’s almost like you have to reset and say, wait a minute, why did you start this thing in the first place? Because if it was for freedom or flexibility or more money, and then those things aren’t actually happening, then Something, we have to tweak something along the way, right?

Richard Carr [00:24:27]:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s a, it’s, you know, it’s, it’s a journey and they call it a journey for a reason. And, um, you just have to adapt and, you know, any, any business just has to adapt. Things aren’t going to stay the same forever. You just have to, you know, change the way either you’re doing business, the products you sell, how you sell your products. Yeah, it just evolves.

Stephanie Everett [00:24:51]:
Yeah, so let’s go from once you have a goal, how do you then help firms really break it down so that they can start achieving those goals? Because I think a lot of times, right, it’s just a number, or if it’s just this abstract goal, it’s like you said. Now, what are— what do you do in that process to help them figure out next steps?

Richard Carr [00:25:10]:
So I guess it depends, you know. So if we set the, the long-term goals and then we’ll start working backwards from there, okay, so let’s say if we set a 3-year goal Let’s work backwards. And then we get to a year and then we break that down into a quarter. Again, what has to be true between now and then to make that happen? You know, and then we just kind of work up. On like the individual process side, once we really start breaking down, get to the processes, it’s like, show me the current process. Let’s identify the failures, right? Where they’re happening. And then we decide on the desired behavior, and then we automate it. Let’s automate that desired behavior as much as we can, and then we test, iterate.

Richard Carr [00:25:57]:
It’s never going to be perfect the first time, and just adjust. Where do we need to make— now that we’ve got it automated, where is it still failing? What other things could we tweak to make it better? And so that gets down from like the the lofty goal down to the individual process, kind of. It’s— that’s how I think about it.

Stephanie Everett [00:26:17]:
I wonder, without naming names, if you have like an example that you might— we might be able to share to kind of help people really understand what you’re talking about.

Richard Carr [00:26:24]:
So yeah, I have, uh, one client, uh, she came to me and just really overwhelmed. Um, she just couldn’t maintain— she just couldn’t, uh, keep up with the business. She actually had to shut down a side of her business because it just The process was overwhelming and she was getting burnt out. And so she came to lab and we kind of figured out, okay, what is the lowest hanging fruit that we can adjust or that we can aim at to start creating a little, a little bit of leverage in her day? And we figured out that, um, she didn’t have any real eyeballs on where her cases were in any kind of stage and where they were. So We said, okay, we need— before we can make any other progress on anything else, we need to know where everything lives and what stage it’s at. And we spent the first couple weeks going through that, and she did get her eyes on, on what was going on in her firm, closed some old cases that needed to be, you know, closed. And that created a little bit of leverage in her day and in her week. And then we set aside work blocks to say, okay, now we’re gonna really dedicate a couple hours a week to just knocking these things out.

Richard Carr [00:27:38]:
That created a little bit more time. And then, you know, we’re up to a point now where she’s going to hire another office administrator, and that is going to be a really big win for her time. And then she’s going to open up in probably the next couple weeks the other half of her business, and she’s going to start taking new clients in again. But it was really just about finding that little bit of leverage that We could snowball into more time and more effective, you know, use of her time, um, moving forward.

Stephanie Everett [00:28:06]:
Yeah, I love that. And I love that you also just had to help her step back and take stock of where everything was. Because I, I, it really resonates when you said she showed up to, to Lab really overwhelmed. I think that that’s, I think that’s the case for the majority of the people who join us, right? They just show up and they’re like, I don’t know what needs to change, but it’s got to be something because what I’m doing now Can’t, can’t be the answer. I can’t keep sustaining at this level. And sometimes it’s just helping people really start to, to parse that out and see what the possibilities are and, and being like, I love the idea that you’re like, let’s just create a little bit of leverage in your day, a little bit of space. And then that would, and then that just continues to compound.

Richard Carr [00:28:48]:
Yeah. I mean, I think most people come to Lab, you know, I will say they have a, they have a fire. There’s something going on that is Either really stressing them out or just not working efficiently. And so most of the time I try to identify what that fire is first, because it’s going to make it easier for them to be able to focus on the longer-term aspects of what it is that we’re trying to get them to think about. So it’s usually for me, it’s okay, fire first, let’s put out the fire first. And then, you know, then we can start working on building out the long-term vision. And then that usually, that almost always leads to what’s the next process. Right.

Richard Carr [00:29:26]:
That we have to, um, make more efficient.

Stephanie Everett [00:29:29]:
If you’re, if you’re talking to someone like, what’s your dream? Like, what do you want people to know? Like, hey, when you do this kind of work on your business, whether you do it with Loyalist or somewhere else, you know, on your own, what do you want them to know in terms of like what it actually takes to make a difference? Because we can talk about it, but I think sometimes people still kind of get stuck in their own way. And so here’s your chance to kind of be like, guys, this is what you need to do. What do you tell those people?

Richard Carr [00:29:55]:
Everything can get better with time and focus. I guess what I mean by that is any process can get better if you identify where it’s failing, particularly with lawyers, how they decide to practice law. Then that might need tweaked to figure out to support the life that they ultimately want to get. So it just depends. I hate to say that, but everyone comes in a little differently. But overall, I think the big takeaway is that, you know, if you put focus and energy into something, it will get better.

Stephanie Everett [00:30:31]:
Yeah, no, I agree. I love that because I think sometimes on the flip side, that’s some— our— sometimes our biggest frustration is people come to us and they say they want help, but it’s really hard for them to change anything. Even like to your point, it can, it can be a small thing. It can be a 20-minute thing, but we got to change something. You got to be willing to try and experiment with us or else we’re just going to kind of say stop. Yeah, and

Richard Carr [00:30:56]:
it’s really, it’s fun to see that light bulb go off, you know, even if it’s, even if it’s just, I saved an hour this week, you know, they, they start to see it, they start to believe it, and then they’re like, okay, what, what can I do now? What can I get next? That really made a difference in my life. Um, and it’s, it’s really good to see, but then that, that starts the wheels turning and, you know, you build on it from there.

Stephanie Everett [00:31:20]:
What other advice do you have to someone who’s kind of feeling unsure, and maybe they’re just like, but I don’t even know what path I should be taking. What do you tell those people?

Richard Carr [00:31:32]:
Usually I start the conversation with frustrations. Then if they don’t know, let’s just have a sit— let’s just sit down and have a conversation of what’s frustrating you the most, um, in your day-to-day. It doesn’t even necessarily have to be— I mean, it almost always is about their business and their law firm, but You know, usually the other stuff is, is generated out of that. But usually, what’s, what’s frustrating you the most? And usually they know what that is fairly quickly, whether, um, um, you know, it’s like, ah, intake, it’s really annoying and it just gets messed up all the time, or I always gotta make these calls back and, and things like that. But usually just asking where, you know, what’s frustrating you the most usually brings out that first thing. And then, okay, let’s make that Let’s have a conversation about that. Is that something that we can solve quickly? Or is that going to be a longer-term fix? And then dive a little deeper. What is causing that? Right? Let’s get down to the nugget, you know, first principles of what’s causing the problem.

Richard Carr [00:32:30]:
And if it can be quick fix quickly, let’s fix it quickly. And if not, let’s make that a goal and work towards it.

Stephanie Everett [00:32:39]:
Yeah, I love it. These things aren’t brain surgery, but they just, but they do take effort. To your point, it all comes back to time and focus, right? Like you can make improvements, but you do have to put just a little bit of effort there and get the process started. And then, and then it continues to roll. And I was, I was with a group yesterday actually, and someone who had been in Lab, I think about 4 or 5 years ago, and she was happy to see how far her firm had come since she first started working with us. And, and she hasn’t been— stepped away from the program for a few years now. But then she was sort of realizing, and yet now there’s new opportunities. There’s still things that we can improve.

Stephanie Everett [00:33:18]:
And I think sometimes that’s also the sad point. Like you think, okay, when am I going to have this all figured out? And I was kind of like, eh, maybe never because your business continues to evolve and challenge you. And then there’s new opportunities that come up. So no matter what stage you’re in, we can really help you pinpoint and figure out what success needs to look like next for where you are.

Richard Carr [00:33:42]:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, well, there’s an old saying, you know, for business, like, if you stay still, you die. And that’s, that’s just the case for running any business. I mean, when you think particularly about law firms and small law firms, just think about the pace of change of technology. Um, that is changing the landscape and law firms are still trying to figure out that out, what that means. To this point about time, I mean, there’s an old saying is like the entrepreneurs work the 80 to avoid working the 40. That’s almost doubly true for small law firms and lawyers because of that dual nature of the things that they have to do. So it can be done, but you got to figure out those pieces that you can steal your time back.

Stephanie Everett [00:34:26]:
Yeah. Now, at the time of recording this, we just wrapped up LabCon. So it was your first time coming to our in-person conference that we do every year. And I feel like going in, if it’s fair to say, you were a little uncertain because, you know, I was like, yeah, just, you’re just gonna have to get there and go with it, roll with the flow. But, um, now that you’ve been through it and you’re out the other side, you survived just fine. Uh, I’m curious. Yeah. What’d you think? How was LabCon and what would you tell people that weren’t there?

Richard Carr [00:34:55]:
I really liked LabCon and I tell you, it was so much different than every other convention I’ve ever been to, to be quite honest. It really is a, um, A working conference. You know, it really is, hey, and I thought, and it’s funny, I just had a conversation with a client before we stepped on here and he attended and we were talking about it and the conversations among the lawyers themselves are all in similar situations. Hey, how did you handle this? What problems are you facing? You know, you’re not alone. You can see how they, they did something and it’s working really well for them. And then we, you know, we there as strategists being around and like, I want to focus on this problem for the next couple of days. And you have the support around you to actually sit down and do it. And I thought that was lots of people left with things they actually accomplished at LabCon.

Richard Carr [00:35:49]:
And we’re really, really excited and happy to do that. And so it was just a fun environment. Everyone was very nice, really easy to get along with. Everyone was very, participated very well. And, um, yeah, I thought it was a really, a really great conference.

Stephanie Everett [00:36:05]:
Yeah, same. Now you know why I always say it’s, it’s one of my most favorite things that we do around here.

Richard Carr [00:36:10]:
You do have to experience though. You do have to experience though, because you can’t really just say like this and you don’t really have a, in your mind what to expect. And because everyone’s been to the others, you know, the other types and it’s, it’s not quite like that. So it’s definitely different, but worthwhile for sure.

Stephanie Everett [00:36:26]:
Yeah, and we like being a little different. So if you missed this year’s event, um, you know, I don’t have the dates for next year yet, but maybe put it, put a little reminder to check in and see if we can’t get you to the event. Um, and I don’t know, I have some ideas in my mind about how can we do almost like mini versions of the event throughout the year. So stay tuned for that too. I got to still figure that out, but the ideas are forming up here. So now I guess I have to take Richard’s advice and Break it down. Like I have the goal. So now how am I going to make that happen? See if I can’t put that on the roadmap for next year too.

Richard Carr [00:37:00]:
No, awesome. No, it was a great time. I think, and, uh, you know, every year, I don’t know, I think you do every year the praise wall. Our praise wall was just packed this year. And, um, and the praise wall for those who don’t know is people who are in attendance, right? Basically a thank you, a praise card to, um, another attendee or strategist. thanking them either for, hey, thank you for the wonderful advice, or just a nice chat, or nice to get to know you. And the wall was full and was really great as an example of just the kind of, um, vibe in the room that was going on there.

Stephanie Everett [00:37:36]:
Yeah, for sure. That’s definitely a favorite. And it built really easy this year. A lot— sometimes I’m in there like, come on guys, gotta get our praise wall going. But this year everybody was just up there and I think it speaks volumes to the, to the kind of community that we create and the type of lawyers that want to be a part of this community. Because, you know, there’s a lot of places where it still feels a little competitive and, you know, people trying to kind of stick their chest out and one-up each other. And that’s just not the vibe that we have. Instead, everyone’s very collaborative and helpful.

Stephanie Everett [00:38:06]:
And I’ve been through that. Let me help you through that. Or how, how would you approach this? And Um, it’s very cool to see if you’ve— if you haven’t— but if you haven’t experienced that from your fellow law firm owners, I think you’d be pleasantly surprised.

Richard Carr [00:38:20]:
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, let’s face it, it’s hard to ask for help. And the LabCom, uh, you know, attendees and the members, they’ve, they’ve basically asked, hey, I need help with some aspect of my business. And that, I think, opens you up a little bit to being a little bit more collaborative and understanding that you’re not the only one in this situation. And, you know, there is, there is help out there. And so, yeah, I would say if anyone else is in the same situation, you don’t have to do everything by yourself. Reach out.

Stephanie Everett [00:38:50]:
Yeah. Amazing. Well, Richard, we’re so happy to have you on the team. Happy to have gotten to hang out with you some at LabCon and love this simple, simple way to take your big ideas, break them into those clear priorities and action items so that you can actually get stuff done. So thanks for being with me today. It’s been a pleasure.

Richard Carr [00:39:12]:
Yep. Thanks for having me. Thank you.

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