Building a Law Firm Around One Clear Vision, with Megan Burns

Episode Notes

Transcript

Bernadette Harris [00:00:01]:
Hi, I’m Bernadette.

Zack Glaser [00:00:03]:
And I’m Zach, and welcome to The Lawyers Podcast, one of the many ways that we help lawyers build healthier firms, better businesses, and more sustainable lives. Today, Stephanie talks with one of our Labsters, Megan Burns, about her law firm and what she’s been doing in Lab lately and, and all the good stuff that she’s, uh, that she’s gotten out of, out of working here and working on her firm and creating a healthier firm.

Bernadette Harris [00:00:29]:
Yeah, I know it’s going to be an awesome, um, episode. I actually work with Megan’s partner and they are doing some incredible stuff in their law firm. So, you know, Zach, this is, this is kind of unrelated but related, right? I don’t know if you know this about me, but I love to cook and I’m a really good cook, right?

Megan Burns [00:00:47]:
Oh.

Bernadette Harris [00:00:47]:
And one of the things that I noticed about cooking and how it relates to the work that we get to do with the Labsters is that in order to get the desired outcome, you have to follow the recipe. It doesn’t matter how good the dish looks, you can’t turn up the temperature, you can’t speed up the process, you kind of have to follow the recipe in order to get that desired outcome. And I think that is very much in line with the work that we do with Labsters, right? And so they can look at— they can come to us and say that they want to have a 10-person law firm, but They have to follow a process to actually do that and get to that point, just like a recipe.

Zack Glaser [00:01:36]:
Bread bakes in the time that bread bakes, right? Bread rises in the time that bread rises. And you can’t make a lasagna without making a sauce first, or gravy, I think that some people call that, or whatever.

Bernadette Harris [00:01:53]:
You have to do the steps. You know, you have to. And it’s funny that you say bread, right? Because bread is one of those things that I’m not really good— I’ve made bread once or twice. Not— I don’t think I’m particularly good at it to the point where I’ve just done it so much. But one of the things that I know about baking bread is you make the dough and you got to let it sit and it’s got to rest and it’s got to do its thing. And you cannot speed that up. You can’t turn up the temperature. You can’t turn down the temperature.

Bernadette Harris [00:02:24]:
You just have to. Yeah. And I think that’s the same when it comes to following a process of building a business, building a business like Megan has done. This took a process, right? There were things that had to be done. There were points where you had to slow down and just kind of pay attention to what was going on. So, yeah.

Zack Glaser [00:02:49]:
Well, Bernadette, I think I’m about to do the greatest segue. that I’ve ever done. And I’m going to say, well, now I’m hungry for Stephanie’s conversation with Megan.

Bernadette Harris [00:03:00]:
So am I.

Zack Glaser [00:03:02]:
Well, let’s listen to that now.

Megan Burns [00:03:19]:
Hello, my name is Megan Burns and I’m the managing partner at Mirador Law. We are a Bay Area-based plaintiff personal injury practice.

Stephanie Everett [00:03:28]:
Thanks, Megan. Welcome to the show. So excited to talk to you today.

Megan Burns [00:03:31]:
Yes, thanks so much for having me.

Stephanie Everett [00:03:34]:
And I’m going to pick up right off that intro because you introduced yourself as doing personal injury law. And I know that’s not how you guys started because I actually know your background. And so I would love for you to kind of back up a little bit and tell us A little bit about the journey you got, you know, you took to get here.

Megan Burns [00:03:53]:
Sure. I’m happy to talk about that. Um, I built my entire career around helping people. And so the best way I found to help people was being a public defender. And I started in the San Francisco Public Defender’s Office early in my career. I spent about a decade there. I tried a lot of cases, got a lot of experience, really learned how to be a trial lawyer. And every single day I got to help people.

Megan Burns [00:04:20]:
And so when I decided to transition out from government work and into private practice, it was really important that I maintain my identity of having a practice that always, every single day, helped people. And so I joined the law firm that I’m now managing partner, uh, and for many, many years we were known as a very high-quality criminal defense and also plaintiff personal injury practice. And we’ve recently transitioned into being a solely plaintiff personal injury practice. And I definitely credit working with Lawyerist a lot to help us to get from where we were to where we’re going.

Stephanie Everett [00:05:01]:
Well, no, I appreciate that. And I’ve enjoyed being part of your journey. And so I think so many people kind of, sometimes it’s easy for us to think, Well, this is what I’ve always done. You know, you worked in the public defender’s office for over a decade. That is a long time to be practicing criminal defense law. And then you came out and in your private practice you were doing criminal defense. So to completely move away from that practice area, I mean, I’ll say it feels scary. It feels unknown and hard, but you’re doing it.

Stephanie Everett [00:05:34]:
So I’m sure other people might be thinking, wow, how did she do that? So let’s unpack this a little bit.

Megan Burns [00:05:41]:
Sure. I mean, really, it was 20 years as a criminal defense attorney because it was 10 years as a public defender and another 10 years doing really complex, high-level criminal defense in private practice. And during that private practice timeframe, I was also learning plaintiff personal injury law. And I think I was just interviewing a new paralegal for our office this morning before we’re starting this interview, and I was telling him that Emily and I— that’s my law partner, I feel like we still think of ourselves as public defenders handling plaintiff personal injury practice cases. And part of that is just because if you’re a trial lawyer, it’s apply facts to law, right? Like, it’s less about the specific issue presented in a particular case, but it’s learning those inherent trial skills. So those are, in my mind, very translatable in terms of the practice. Of running a trial-focused plaintiff personal injury practice. But also, I think for myself personally, I always felt connected to the criminal defense work because I felt that those were my clients that were really in need.

Megan Burns [00:06:52]:
And I wasn’t sure that I would have the same feeling doing plaintiff personal injury work. And I really have. Like, I just remember the first trial that Emily and I did, and I was pacing the hallways back and forth waiting for that verdict, just like I would in a criminal trial. The thing that I love about doing plaintiff personal injury work is that I feel like it’s a little puzzle that I have to solve every single case. And having done criminal defense for 20 years, it was like kind of the issues started to become not the same, but similar case by case. With plaintiff personal injury, I think I can use my creativity brain a little bit more, which is why I feel like I was a really good fit. And also my law partner who made the same transition is a really good fit for this kind of work. So that’s kind of our journey as lawyers, but there’s also this whole separate journey of running this law practice.

Stephanie Everett [00:07:49]:
Right. Because you have to change, uh, it’s a whole different business model. I mean, obviously, it probably seems obvious to everyone because you’re like, duh, Stephanie. Yes, I’m sure the way you charged for criminal defense and now doing contingency fee-based. But really, when I talk about business models, it’s also the marketing and How you staff and how you, it’s really running all parts of your business. And so when we first started working together, you guys were sort of in the middle of figuring it out. Like you had both practices running and you saw this opportunity and you really were trying to make a decision. Do we keep some of the criminal defense work or do we shift and, and really, you know, just focus on one area? And I’m just kind of curious some of the thinking behind that and that ultimately helped you sort of say, no, we want to go all in and narrow on this area.

Stephanie Everett [00:08:39]:
Yeah.

Megan Burns [00:08:40]:
You know, for small firms, there’s certainly lots of people that do both criminal defense and plaintiff personal injury. That is kind of like doing family law and maybe wills and trusts or something. A lot of people kind of layer 2 practice areas together because there’s a natural synergy between those practice areas and/or there’s a good business reason behind it. So I think that’s why we started. We always talked about criminal defense as kind of like the blue-collar side of our practice. You know, we were charging flat fees.

Bernadette Harris [00:09:11]:
Mm-hmm.

Megan Burns [00:09:11]:
We tried to always be fair with our clients, but that was kind of our business model. So we had a flat fee business model where, you know, clients paid us at the beginning of the case, and it always seemed to work out really well with the plaintiff personal injury where you get paid maybe at the end of the case. So it was really a hedge in terms of our risk assessment of running a plaintiff personal injury practice. And I think Part of it for us is, you know, just particularly in the plaintiff personal injury space here in the Bay Area, but I think this is probably true nationally, it’s a very male-dominated area of the law. I mean, there’s lots of areas of the law that are male-dominated, and I love my wonderful male mentors and support people, but ultimately we need more space for women in leadership roles in the law, whether that’s running law firms, Whether that’s taking places on the bench, whether that’s going into big law and kind of ascending the ranks beyond, you know, just junior partner. So I very much feel like plaintiff personal injury is an area that needs a lot of work in that issue of representation. And so I think we’ve kind of just considered ourselves a little bit of small fries in this space. And as we realized that our trial skills totally translated to doing these plaintiff personal injury cases and, you know, hey, we can really do this, we did have to just look at what are we passionate about? Where is our growth model from our business? And how do we make that work for us? And I think for myself personally, I was trying very complex, very complicated criminal trials.

Megan Burns [00:11:03]:
And also the same in plaintiff personal injury. In a 12-month span, I did one very serious criminal trial that lasted, um, uh, over 6 weeks. And I also tried 2 very complex, uh, PI cases in that same year. And I think for me personally, having a foot in each world was just a little bit too much and also running a really successful business. So at some point we had to make a choice. Mm-hmm.

Stephanie Everett [00:11:31]:
And so once you guys made that choice, then you had to go all in. Did you, were you able to transition your team and how did, how did, how did that work? Like mechanically, what kind of changes did you have to make?

Megan Burns [00:11:45]:
Well, we did a lot of work in terms of, I mean, the first thing we did was have a partner retreat and say, what is our vision? What’s our long-term plan? And I think that’s so important when you’re running a business is really just not looking at where you are. where you want to be in 5 years, where you want to be in 10 years. We had already started kind of, I would say, a business transition in the sense that we had changed our firm name. We’d always had our last names on the back of the door, and then we worked with this great branding company to help us kind of create a brand identity that would live beyond us as law partners and kind of trying to work towards having a legacy business. So we had already Started that process, but then we had to look deeper and say, okay, what are the cases that we’re going to handle and how is this going to work? And initially, when we started working with lawyers and we had our first firm retreat, you know, we were still very committed to keeping this a two-practice law firm. So it really was like trying to run two law firms in one. And so we tried different methods to try to make that work, and eventually we came to the conclusion that if we’re going to do something really. Really well, we need to focus on it.

Megan Burns [00:12:59]:
And we need to restructure the way that our team works. We need to restructure how our finances are aligned. And we need to make this push and make a choice. And that’s what we ended up doing. And so far, so good.

Stephanie Everett [00:13:13]:
Yes, I know. I, I love that. And I appreciate that. Because I feel like, I feel like I sometimes— what’s the right word? Like, I don’t know, do we beat dead horses or play the same record? But I meet a lot of lawyers. And when I ask them what they do, They often will tell me 2, 3, 4, 5 practice areas for very small firms. And I’m like, that’s running multiple businesses. Like, it’s really hard. And so I, you know, I appreciate it when sometimes you, they, you guys need to hear it from each other and not from me, but like, it really is running 2 completely different businesses when you have those different practice areas versus being able to align and consolidate and be focused.

Megan Burns [00:13:53]:
Yeah. And it’s every aspect of your business. I mean, my background was in finance before I went to law school and I do feel like I use my business background— shout out Boston College— every single day in running this practice, whether it’s helping educate my plaintiff personal injury clients about like how to organize their finances when we are finally able to settle their cases, to make sure that those funds that they’ve received after being seriously injured can sustain them and work for them for many, many years to come, sometimes for the rest of their life. They need those resources. So I’m using my finance background there, but I’m also using my finance background to run this practice. And so I think I’m a little bit unique in that sense that I had a business background and I’m a lawyer, but it’s still, there’s so much to learn. And I think you just have to be a little bit trust in yourself. You have to believe in yourself a little bit and also be willing to take chances and have people push you.

Megan Burns [00:14:53]:
So that’s what I, that’s what I love about working with lawyers is I feel like I’m getting pushed and challenged and I love that accountability measure for myself to say I have an ability to grow here. And so, yeah, so that’s kind of what we’re doing every day. But yeah, it’s so, it’s a lot to go from having a law firm structured in one way to say we’re going to totally do something different.

Stephanie Everett [00:15:18]:
What advice would you give somebody who might be thinking about this and thinking about, hmm, I’ve been okay, She’s, she’s talking my tune here. I’ve been thinking about this for a while, but I wasn’t sure.

Megan Burns [00:15:27]:
Well, let me just start and assume that the person that I’m talking to probably has law partners. You know, I think maybe it’s a little bit different when you’re running a solo practice and you have people work for you. Um, my law partner, Emily Domm, and I, we, we own and run this practice together. So every decision we make is together. And I think that’s a lot of people that are probably Lawyerist listeners and Lab participants. There’s probably a couple partners in the mix at a lot of these firms. And so I think the first thing and the most important thing is that you’re aligned with the other partners in the firm as to what the vision is. And that was our first step, was really to take the time.

Megan Burns [00:16:07]:
And it’s so hard, you know, you, you are busy with your cases, you’re busy managing people, you’re busy managing finances, marketing, all these things that come with running a law firm. But ultimately, I think you need to take the time and space to really have that deep dive of where you are and where you want to go and clear your schedule for that. So I really encourage people, particularly ones that have other partners, to have firm retreats and like block out time on your calendar, preferably when you’re not in your office space and people can come find you and ask you questions, that you’re just totally separate and you can have these kind of strategic vision Conversations and be aligned. That’s always, I think, the first step, uh, when you’re looking at making a big change.

Stephanie Everett [00:16:54]:
Yeah. And, you know, you, you’re fortunate that you live in a very beautiful location. So I can say, cause I was at that retreat that we, you know, we, but you gotta just got a conference room in a hotel down the street and it doesn’t have to be anything fancy, but it is nice to get out of your office, you know, and cause you do need, it changes your brain too. To be in a different space.

Megan Burns [00:17:16]:
100% whiteboard and then Airbnb for the day, whatever it takes. Um, but yeah, just being someplace that you’re not normally at for that firm retreat, that was so important for us to really kind of start formulating that strategic vision and say, okay, what are our goals here? What does the 10-year timeline look like? What does it look like beyond that point?

Stephanie Everett [00:17:37]:
Yeah. And then for people who might not know, then after we did that big visioning, It was like, okay, what’s the next steps? Like, what has to be true in 1 month and 3 months and 6 months to know we’re on this path? And we really mapped that out so that you guys could feel good about the day-to-day decisions that you’re making every day too, which I think sometimes people, you just kind of forget how intentional almost you have to be along the way.

Megan Burns [00:18:00]:
Yeah. I mean, ever since I’ve been in private practice, I feel like I have inherently had my Q1, Q2, Q3, and Q4 goals. you know, for, for myself and the practice and my law partner and I kind of figuring out who’s going to do what. Um, but yeah, there was a lot of teamwork after the retreat to be, to get down into the nitty gritty and say, okay, how do we implement this new vision we have for ourselves? And let’s make it really concrete. And so sometimes there’s a little bit of AI helping kind of, you know, map out your vision board and turning it into those like deliverables for yourself, but you have to then really If you, if you’re going to make a big change, you got to make again the time on your schedule to say, okay, now we’re going to schedule these interim meetings to make sure that we’re supporting our team most importantly, because ultimately, you know, no law firm can work without a great team behind you. And so we wanted to make sure that our team was really supportive of these changes that we’re making and that we supported each one of them to know that they still had a place in the firm. And for the ones that were mostly focused on criminal defense, This is how we’re going to help you level up in the plane of personal injury work. And this is how we’re going to retrain you to do that.

Megan Burns [00:19:18]:
And so, um, really kind of getting that action item plan in place was really the next step for us, for sure.

Stephanie Everett [00:19:28]:
Yeah. And I know that you’re, I just know you, so I know you’re naturally goal-driven. Maybe that helps too, because I know you’re, you, I feel like you’re very similar to me. It’s like, okay, what’s the plan? What are the steps? How are we going to get there? Not everybody always functions in that way. And so, and I’m sure some of your team doesn’t even function in that way. And so sometimes you become that drum, you know, leader of like, here’s the beat. And how do you, how have you been able to, have you had to manage other personalities or help people kind of get aligned? And what does that look like?

Megan Burns [00:20:01]:
Well, I will say that I listened to the most recent Lawyerist podcast about leadership. And I loved the kind of thing that I learned, which was leaders bring the weather, right? Like, I love that. I’m going to use that. It’s now my tagline. I’m stealing it 100% and claiming it as my own. So part of it is just an issue of positivity. As a leader, you have to bring positive energy into the space and say, look, this is a good thing. This is a good change.

Megan Burns [00:20:34]:
And yes, there’s a lot of people that are Change is scary. I think for myself, to your point, I am a very goal-driven person. You know, I see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I feel like I know exactly the steps that need to go to get from, you know, where I am to where I’m going. But for me personally, sometimes I need another personality or multiple personalities to kind of say, you know what, it may not be quite as a linear path as you think it is, and that’s an okay thing too. So I think being open to hearing other points of view that aren’t As linear and goal-driven as I might be is really important for me personally. That’s part of my personal growth journey as a as a leader. But then I think mostly it’s about positivity. What I hear a lot, you know, we have employees that have worked for our firm for almost twenty years, and it’s always fun to hear them talk about what the firm was like when they started and what it’s like today.

Megan Burns [00:21:34]:
And it is a very very different place. So it’s very gratifying to know that they’ve been there for that journey, and they have like the trust. in you as a leader to know that you’re not leading them astray. So a lot of that is just positive leadership, I think, to get the team to feel like this is a good thing and the right direction for your business.

Zack Glaser [00:21:54]:
Yeah.

Stephanie Everett [00:21:54]:
And as you said that, I was like, 20 years? And then I remembered you per— I mean, you guys, you, you didn’t start this firm, right? Like you came into an existing firm. So that also says something that these folks have been here for a really long time. They predated you. But also they’re still there. They’re still bought into the vision that you’re now creating, which I think speaks volumes to what you guys have had to do. So it wasn’t just like you’re the founder and you said, now we’re going in this direction. I feel like that makes it even harder and a more impressive story. So.

Megan Burns [00:22:27]:
Well, thank you for that. I mean, it’s true. If this, the firm that we run, Mirador Law, it has been in Alameda County here in the East Bay of San Francisco. For over 50 years. I mean, we really came into a legacy practice with our— the partners that founded the firm, Jules and Michael, amazing human beings that opened this door to Emily and I to take over the practice once they decided to retire. So we feel very strongly about what we’re building, mostly because what had already been built before us. So the fact that Folks that have been here way longer than me are still on that journey is certainly something we feel very gratified about, and that we are on the right path and that we treat people right. I think ultimately, you know, there’s being a lawyer, and that is only one small part of running a law firm.

Megan Burns [00:23:23]:
You know, you spend so many working hours every single day with the people that you work with. You know, you deserve to have a good working environment, and so do the rest of the folks that work for you. So I think when you’re looking at it from a managing partner standpoint, you know, really caring about the people that work for you is really, you know, your number one job. And I don’t know what comes first, caring about your employees and who works for you versus caring about your clients. Maybe it’s right on the same level, but it’s— they’re both very, very important, at least for our success.

Stephanie Everett [00:23:56]:
Yeah, for sure. I love that. And I love, um, Yeah, I just, I’m so excited to see where you guys already have come. I feel like it was just yesterday when I was out doing that retreat with you guys. And now I look and I’m like, wow, like you really have reinvented the firm in so many great ways. And this is just the start of this journey. So, I can’t wait to see where you guys go next.

Megan Burns [00:24:20]:
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, with plaintiff personal injury work, as you know, it’s highly competitive. There are really big players in the space with very, very deep pockets. And so being able to compete from a monetary standpoint, from a marketing sophistication standpoint, and then from a legal standpoint in terms of delivering in the courtroom for your clients, it’s not necessarily the easiest practice area for sure. So it does take a little bit of self-confidence. It takes a little bit of having, you know, run a firm with a good financial kind of stability to be able to like next level like this. And I think in terms of my own personal growth, you know, really understanding marketing and intake and processes and procedures and how I can help my team be more efficient and create a great experience for our clients from the moment they talk to somebody for the very first time at Mirador Law all through to the conclusion of their case, which You know, in plaintiff personal injury is a lot of times the more serious the case, you’re talking years where you’re really connecting with those clients and getting to know their families and seeing it through. But those are the areas where I’m looking to grow.

Megan Burns [00:25:42]:
And it is a real challenge with AI and marketing, with these, these firms that are coming in from different states with budgets that are, you know, 7 figures plus on a monthly basis. for a little firm like us to compete. And I just, I’m very gratified that people pick up the phone and call us because it’s just really hard to get in front of the audience that really needs our help, uh, and make sure that they end up with good quality lawyers.

Stephanie Everett [00:26:11]:
Yeah. Well, thanks for being my guest today. It’s been so fun to talk to you and, um, yeah, and good luck on what comes next.

Megan Burns [00:26:20]:
Thank you so much. And I’m really looking forward to coming and participating with the Lawyerist Lab. It’ll be my first time, and I’m excited to meet some other people and get some great ideas from the other Labsters and, you know, see you again in person and, yeah, spend this time and space to help us continue to grow a great law firm.

Stephanie Everett [00:26:42]:
All right. Thanks, Megan.

Megan Burns [00:26:44]:
Thank you.