Building Raving Fans of Your Law Firm with Stephanie Everett

Episode Notes

Transcript

Gyi Tsakalakis (00:36)

Stephanie, welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Uh we’ve known each other for a long time, but for Lunch Hour Legal Marketing listeners who might not be familiar with you, why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us what you’re up to?

 

Stephanie Everett (00:48)

Yeah. Hey guys, I’m Stephanie. Um, lawyer still. In fact, I would I tried a case a couple of months ago. It’s my first time in court in 10 years.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (00:56)

Well uh shall I say congratulations. Yes. Nice job.

 

Stephanie Everett (00:58)

‘Cause I won. It was awesome.

 

It was like riding a bike. So it does come back to you. I got to throw in some hearsay objections. I was like, yeah, I’m a real lawyer.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (01:06)

Fun. Now was that in the context was that lawyer for lawyerist or outside of the lawyer?

 

Stephanie Everett (01:10)

I mean, my housekeeper got sued on a frivolous dog bite case. and I felt so terrible. It really was ridiculous. And so I said, you know what? I’m gonna figure this out. And luckily, because of AI, we can talk let’s see, we could talk about AI. I got up to speed on Georgia dog bite law and all my evidentiary issues that I needed in about an hour. Went, tried the case. It was super fun. One done.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (01:34)

Look at that. I had no idea we were gonna talking about your practice and dog bite lab, but here we are.

 

Stephanie Everett (01:39)

Here we are. had no idea I was gonna be doing that either. But um but that’s yeah, I mean for the last ten years I have not been trying cases. I had never tried a dog bite case ’cause I was a real estate litigator back in the day. But now for um yeah, now I help lawyers figure out how to run their business and use technology, including AI and I don’t know, create a better life. Is that fair to say?

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (02:00)

Well

 

probably one of the most important things I think that we all

 

Stephanie Everett (02:03)

do I yeah, ’cause sometimes being a lawyer sucks. And so my goal in life is to make it suck less.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (02:09)

Love it. There’s your sound bite. And we are here in Las Vegas at eight A. M.’s Kaleidoscope Conference, which has been an awesome conference. And we were talking in preparation that Jesse Cole from Savannah Bananas is here. And where were some of the highlights from his talk? He

 

Stephanie Everett (02:25)

He

 

first of all, he brings the energy. He comes, you know, in full banana yellow

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (02:31)

Banana garb.

 

Stephanie Everett (02:32)

stuff. Yes. He had he had a room full of lawyers dance. We did the second inning stretch. So that was super fun. Um, but no, he had so many good ideas. He just really spoke about how do you create uh raving fans. Like that’s his whole model is he stopped looking at

 

baseball. He was like, baseball, he loved he started as a player, he told us, and then became a coach when he got injured. And he was like, this is really boring. It was really fascinating. He’s like, I had the best seat in the house in the dugout and I was bored to death. And so he said, How do we change baseball and make it entertaining for the fans? Because that’s who’s paying us money. That’s who’s coming. And once he did that, his whole philosophy kind of shifted. And so he really had us thinking

 

Lawyers like, how do you create fans? How do you make what you do fun and interesting and enjoyable for people and remove friction? So

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (03:22)

Well, as lawyers ourselves, we can say this, but lawyers know how to do boring really well, right? And

 

Stephanie Everett (03:27)

Yeah, I think we’re

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (03:28)

and I think a lot of lawyers would they hear that message, you know, and uh one of the things that we support people in launch early marketing is about marketing uh law firms. I know you it’s part of um helping law firms, you talk about marketing. And a lot of lawyers like they hear that and they’re like, fans? How am I gonna get fans for a lawyer? But I think that’s kind of part of the whole problem, right? Because

 

We’re like, yeah, they you can I mean, think about the situation that you can just that we didn’t even know we were talking about with the housekeeper. Right. Like, she’s probably a huge fan of yours. She

 

Stephanie Everett (03:57)

I mean, literally this past weekend, the trial was three or four months ago. She continues to bring food to our house because I mean, w of course she was like, Ca what can I pay you when the hearing was over? And I was like, No, no, no. This was thank you. This was fun. She’s so grateful, right? And just the other day I showed up and she I I didn’t even know she was gonna show up and she just keeps showing up with food and it’s really good food. So at some point my husband was like, We might have to tell her that she doesn’t like she has fulfilled like it’s been great, but I was like, But the food is so good.

 

I just want to keep eating it. Um, but yeah, if I was still practicing law, I am confident she would go tell everybody, Hey, Stephanie helped me. You should if she can help you too. And so I mean, that is what we do for Olivia. We help people for I think we forget. Like we are a we are kind of super we’re boring, but we’re superheroes.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (04:47)

Right. Absolutely. And I think getting that I think that I think one of the issues and one of the things that we talked about here is is that it’s getting those experiences out into the world. And I think that lawyers, you know, look, we’re also like extremely risk averse. we obviously have ethical obligations, confidentiality, and all this kind of stuff. And so I think that sometimes what the issue is, is like they’re like, I have these, you know, quote unquote raving fans of clients, um, but I don’t really know how to get

 

that those experiences out. And you know, one of the things we talked about is how like your technology platform, like that’s where a lot of those experience live, whether it’s a practice management tool, whether it’s your CRM, whether it’s your intake data and transcripts. but I think that trying to find out how to get that kind of stuff out into the world is one of the challenges that lawyers run into.

 

Stephanie Everett (05:36)

Yeah, and and all that technology is great. And sometimes we just forget to ask. Right? We just forget, like, hey, a testimonial would mean a lot. It helps other people. It would help me. You know, would you be willing to give me one? Or would you be willing to uh you know, I work for referrals. So please keep us in mind for future cases. I think we forget to ask, and I think we think we can only make that ask at the end of the case.

 

When what if they had a great onboarding experience and they were and you they’re super excited and they’re feeling like, I found my person and I’m I’m gonna be in the right hands. Maybe that’s a great time to ask. Oh you know, we we don’t have to wait to the end. I think we can ask a lot of time.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (06:17)

I think that’s a really good point. I think a lot too, like lawyers are self conscious about like, hey, can you ask about me? And and one of the things that we talk a lot about is getting clients to share their story, share their experience ’cause then, you know, it’s about them and like mate, you back to this idea of raping fans. It’s really about getting your fans to share their experience with others versus being like, Oh, my lawyer like fought hard and you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

 

Stephanie Everett (06:40)

Yeah.

 

And I think it’s about how do we want our clients to feel? And are we being intentional in creating that experience where they’re going to feel that way? Because we forget, like, you know, our clients are coming to us, there’s they’re they’re stressed, they’re worried, all these things. How do we and he he also Jesse talked about this? He was like, How do we remove friction? How do we like so for him, one of the first friction points that they thought of was like fees. Um

 

And he was and and actually he called us out because he was like, you know, we so he stopped charging convenience fees and this fee. They handle all the ticketing themselves. They they don’t use an outside provider. They brought it in house so that they could eliminate all those fees. And he was like, think about your industry. He’s like, every time I see my lawyers emailing each other, I all I think is the clock’s running. Right. He’s like, Why why do you guys price that way? And I was like, Yes, yes, yes.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (07:33)

You know, that’s funny because that was I know there was a session on this. I think uh Kim Bennett and Matthew Kerbis were talking about alternative fees and hybrid fees and flat fees and value based pricing. In fact, we were having a conversation about that um in the evening as well. What’s the why why are lawyers so connected to the billable hour? How how can we not why can’t we get off the billable hour?

 

Stephanie Everett (07:53)

I mean, it’s easy.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (07:55)

Yeah.

 

Stephanie Everett (07:56)

It’s easy. But here’s the thing, like, and and actually I ended up interviewing Kim about this too while we were here because we it’s like you just you pick a rate and then you track how long something takes you and you do some math and that’s how you charge. Right. If you want to come up with a different model, then who takes on the risk? We do. Right. And so and it’s hard and it actually takes you gotta be thoughtful about it and you gotta and

 

The reality is for most of us our the billable hour rate that you guys picked, you just guessed. Right. And you don’t even realize what a disservice you did to your business in doing that. So you think you have this awesome pricing model. And I’m here to tell you like probably not. You probably have never actually looked at your profit margin and how your how your I know. Crazy. Crazy. Like, right? You should care. It’s about profit, not revenue people.

 

But yeah, so all these things start, you know, I feel like we’re kinda going all over the place. But as you can tell, I get excited.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (08:55)

No, we’d love to all over the place. And and I think um, you know, one of the things that uh is I think really relevant now, because I was you know, we’re talking about with Kim is how do you if you have a tool, you have a technology tool, that the work that you used to take you hundreds of hours to do is being done in 15 minutes. Right. It seems like billing by the hours ex particularly problematic in that kind of environment.

 

Stephanie Everett (09:19)

I mean, I would think so. And here here’s the other shocking news, guys. Nobody cares how long anything takes you. That’s not why they I didn’t hire you for a.4, right? I had to hire a lawyer once, my husband, I tell this story a lot. Um, we had a we needed a certain permit from the State Department of Revenue for his business, and it just got hung up. And we knew that it was just hung up somewhere. So I did some research and I figured out who has the best connection with the person

 

at that in that department that could move my process through. And so I called, I hired this lawyer. He he made a few phone calls. I mean he literally was like, hey, can you get that application through? And then I was shocked that he billed me by the hour because I actually wasn’t paying for him for the 0.7 or whatever it took him. Like he left money on the table. Cause even before I made before I hired him, I said to my husband, I was like, this is ridiculous.

 

But it it’s worth $2,500 to just get this thing pushed through. And then the bill came, and I’ll never forget he charged me $758 because he was counting how many, you know, and I was like, dude, I was paying you for a right, your reputation, your connections, your experience. It hadn’t, I needed a result, and it had nothing to do with however many.4s made up that 700. And I mean, as the client, I was pr pleasantly surprised because my bill was lower.

 

But I had already set a value in my mind of what it was worth. If he had simply asked me some questions, he might have found out that he could have made twenty five hundred dollars instead.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (10:53)

Hundred percent. And I think you like you nailed there. I mean, like we talked about legal seems like such a perfect place for value-based pricing, right? Like you are willing to pay a thing, an amount of money, to get a thing done. That’s the essence of value-based pricing. And, you know, and and we talk about it um kind of academically. And when you and lawyers like get it, they’re like, Yeah, that makes sense, but they really struggle with making the move off of our and I th some of it I I think is

 

part of the idea of this regulatory framework because you’re like, you know, fees are reasonable and like how do you have, you know, what’s reasonability in the context of value based pricing? But that’s kind of the whole point of reasonableness. It’s subjective, like values in the eye of the purchaser, right?

 

Stephanie Everett (11:37)

And you know what it really requires? It requires talking about money, which is mu which is something we also hate doing. And I go back to even when you’re billing by the hour, I know you guys hate talking about money. So how many times do you tell your client, okay, I just need a $5,000 retainer. I’m gonna bill you $250 an hour. I’m sure these are not the right numbers, right? And then and then and then you get off the topic as soon as you can. Well, the client just heard that retainer amount. They have no idea if what they just bought in this piece of litigation is

 

a used car, a new you know, a new SUV or a condo. And we because we don’t want to tell them that because we’re afraid that they’re gonna run away when they realize that they just made a yeah, a typical divorce is like $35,000 for each side, right? We don’t have those discussions. And so we just try to run away from those conversations. By the way, news flash, no wonder you then have collections problems when you’ve you know di you know depleted the retainer and now you’re trying to get them to

 

replenish and pay their bills and now you’re having collections issues because the client had no idea what they signed up for. Right. And to do this value-based billing like you’re talking about would require me actually have a conversation with you to say, okay, how much are you ready to invest in this divorce? Like what is it going to take and what’s it worth to you? And have those conversations, that’s yeah, we don’t like doing that.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (12:59)

We don’t. And in fact, you made me think of something else that’s been a theme here at the show is this conversation about uh technology’s role in actually communicating with clients. And uh there’s this been this idea about the rise of the AI enabled solo. And I know you work with a lot of solos and and smaller firms, and I think one of the things that Jesse talked about was his uh agility uh on being small. Uh how do you think about that in in the context of like

 

You know, and we work at a lot uh personal injury law firms, there’s private equity money coming in, these MSOs, and there’s massive consolidation and national players. Um, and it’s scary for a lot of these solo and small firms. And, you know, our message, and I think your message, I just know because we’ve known each other is you know, the things that help you that the all that’s left is the human connection, the relationships. And so if you’re a lawyer that’s like racing to not have conversations with your clients or using AI with clients, aren’t you racing to extinction?

 

Yeah.

 

Stephanie Everett (13:59)

And the good news is, because like, yeah, at Lawyerist, we work with a lot of small firms. And I have a saying, I’m like, you guys are my speedboats, right? Because we, you know, my business partners work with some larger firms and they’re the barges, right? They take like to turn a big firm, there’s a lot of bureaucracy. I I’ve I I’ve got invited by a firm. I remember they called me and they were like, Hey, we want to talk to you about AI. And I get I get all excited. And they’re like, We’d like you to sit on our AI technology committee.

 

And we will be evaluating this over the next eight to twelve months. And I was like, that seems pretty pointless, right? It’s moving way faster than that, guys. But you know, small firms, you guys can we can move on a dime. We can have an idea tomorrow and have it up and running by the end of the day. Which I think, as you can tell, is fun. Like I like to implement, like to move, get things done. So kind of what Jesse was talking about too with the Savannah Bananas with the baseball team. He’s like, we’re not

 

Major League Baseball League, which has contracts and unions and it’s hard and slow and all these owners and you have to fight all this bureaucracy to make change. He’s like, I could, I had the luxury of just making up my own rules. And I think for us, sometimes we forget. Like we do, yes, we’re in this judicial framework and we have regulations and rules too. And sometimes we use that as a crutch where we could be a little bit more agile and innovative and and have fun.

 

Have fun. Shouldn’t work be a little fun?

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (15:24)

Should be fun. And I think that that, you know, that’s part of the client experience. Is like, you know, again, most of these legal contacts, you you’re hiring lawyers, something’s really bad happening. And so, uh, you know, I I’m empathetic to lawyers who are like, Look, I I’m helping people with at the worst point in their life. but I do think that they would benefit. I think the client would benefit if we were able to find ways to interject, um, you know, may fun’s the wrong word, but um

 

An experience, yeah. It’s some a a better experience uh for them in that in that context. And go go ahead.

 

Stephanie Everett (15:58)

Yeah. Well, like I know family law lawyers, again, stressful time, but they’re like, Hey, I wanna approach this with mindfulness, so they give their clients a mindfulness app to so they can kind of be thoughtful about their journey and how they show up every day. Okay. I would call that fun, even though maybe Yeah.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (16:15)

No, great exactly. I think that’s fun. I think people will get what you were trying to say there. Um the other thing that you remind me of is there’s another session that I attended here at Kaleidoscope that was on the topic of uh trying to identify the ROI of technology investments. And one of the topics that came up, and I think that you just uh alluded to is that, you know, how do you make these determinations in this environment where uh you know.

 

Some firms have make are making decisions to kind of vibe code their own stuff. Some people are hiring these AI architects, you know, a lot of people are hiring integration partners, making decisions about contract terms and staying agile when the technology seems to be changing almost daily. How do you talk to firms about decisions about technology?

 

Stephanie Everett (16:59)

Yeah,

 

it’s super hard. And that’s one of the things we have firms hire us to do to actually help them decide on AI tools. And I’m like, look, I wouldn’t sign a three year contract for an AI tool right now. And I know there’s people over there in that hall selling them. And I’m like, mm, I that scares me, right? And I know there’s people who are like, they want to pick a horse. And I’m like, I don’t know. I I kind of have a couple of horses in my stable right now because I feel like they keep changing. I mean, even the way I use AI.

 

You know, I started a big heavy chat GPT user, and then Claude blew my mind when, you know, in February when their release came out. Now I’m back to chat. It’s creating images for me. And so I I don’t know that we’re gonna land on one tool. So I think you’re gonna end up with a whole array of tools. And I think how you have to think about those tools and the ROI on them is probably gonna change too, right? Yeah, because I agree. But we’re still figuring it out. It’s still new. So I’m kind of like, look, play around, test some of the tools.

 

I think are being really smart and saying, Hey, you don’t have to buy a a license for everyone in the firm. So we’re running a lot of pilot groups within firms. Like let’s pick a small group, a way up maybe a practice area or something where we want to test and let’s get the license for the, you know, for those people and and see where it goes. I think that’s a great way to approach it.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (18:13)

Yeah, no, and again, I think that goes back to this point of agility, right? Uh if you’re not locking, you know, you’re not building on a single tool, like you’ve got a lot more agility to be able to like make a switch. And I know some of the platforms, uh, you know, they’re kind of model agnostic, right? Like you can swap the models out or they they even handle that for you. Right. versus trying to to build that and manage that yourself.

 

Stephanie Everett (18:34)

Yeah.

 

You know, all this is reminding me though, and I just want to acknowledge it. It’s exhausting. It is. Can we just say that too? I know. I I think when we showed up the other day and all of us kind of reconnected and I think somebody was like, you know, this is it’s exhausting. It’s a lot of change. And it used to be that law firms were making technology decisions and they knew they would be on with that technology for, you know, 10, 15 years because it was going to be a huge investment.

 

And now it feels like we’re trying to move game pieces in the like the board we don’t even know what board we’re playing on or what game it it is. It’s moving so fast. And I just feel like, you know, if you’re a law firm owner right now and you’re feeling that, I just wanna acknowledge you and say, I get it. We we feel that too. Yeah. Like it’s it’s really hard right now. And I don’t th I don’t think we’re talking about that enough.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (19:23)

Yeah, no, I I agree and it’s you it’s hard enough just to practice law and then you’re running a business and then you’ve got to make these technology.

 

Stephanie Everett (19:30)

Marketing, you gotta get the cli yeah, are your funnels working? I mean

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (19:34)

Yeah, right. Well, and you it’s but we didn’t talk about this, but you know, it it’s headlines right now. Like and and it it’s funny because we actually heard some hiring partners here talking about um, you know, the existential threat, right? That’s exhausting too, right? Like AI is like you got people leaving these platforms saying that it’s uh, you know, there’s they’re pee doomers and all that kind of stuff. And so there’s an additional layer of tiredness on top of it and anxiety. Um

 

Stephanie Everett (20:00)

I mean, you talked me off the ledge last year at a conference.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (20:03)

No, I need to be talked that way.

 

Stephanie Everett (20:05)

Because yeah, we heard Richard Richard Suskin at Cleo last year and he was like, the wor I was like, why why why do we even care? Because if we’re all gonna be dead in a decade, yeah, what are we doing? Then

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (20:17)

Focus on we can control.

 

Stephanie Everett (20:19)

I think you talked to me off the ledge and kind of was like, Okay, I can’t think that way. So let me just pretend that the world will continue on as we know it and what’s the next right step for my business.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (20:29)

Yes,

 

and and that’s I I didn’t even want to get into existential threat uh land, but what it made me there’s a conversation here because a lot of firms are running into this issue of uh younger lawyers, newer lawyers, uh, that have moral objections to actually working with AI.

 

Stephanie Everett (20:44)

Yeah. My 15-year-old hates AI, hates that I talk about and use AI. Pretty much we have banned the words from our house because my husband’s like, I can’t deal with you two fighting about this. It’s crazy. And I’m like, I and but yeah, we also need to acknowledge, because I see this in firms every day too. People are scared that it is like legit scared that it’s going to eliminate jobs. And so they are resisting it. There’s a there’s a lot more.

 

change management that we need to understand that we’re not, you know, I mean, one of my business partners is Baron Henley, who forever has taught people how to use Word, right? Because by the way, you’re probably not using Word the right way. And he he gets really excited about Yeah.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (21:26)

He’s like the word Jedi. Yeah. Let’s face it. No one uses word like

 

Stephanie Everett (21:30)

For sure. Like I I don’t even try to pretend that I know how to use Word around Baron. But when he does a training, he’s like

 

Click here, do this, this drop right, and it makes sense. And the way you use Word and I use Word looks pretty much probably the same if we follow Barron’s rules. AI isn’t like that. How you use it and how I use it, how an associate and a partner in the same practice group at the same firm use it is going to be completely different. And so I think we also have to acknowledge that. And what we used to do to train people on how to use software.

 

That training model doesn’t exist anymore. So we’ve had to throw that out the window. And now we’re calling it AI activation where we’re going in, like I said, running these pilot groups, but really working with a small group of people to say, how are you going to use this in your job? And just give them one, two, three use cases to get comfortable. But then we also need the leadership team to really address those fears and say, like, you matter, you’re gonna have a job here, here’s why we’re gonna use these tools. I mean, some of this may s but sound like obvious.

 

But you have to say it.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (22:33)

A hundred percent. ‘Cause we’re in it.

 

Well, it’s it’s so interesting too, ’cause from a marketing perspective, a lot of firms are out there being like, We’re AI enabled and that like that’s supposed to be a competitive advantage and a differentiator. And a lot of times that actually might be a liability depending on the audience and and who your potential clients are. To your point, there’s a lot of uh skepticism, a lot of fear and apprehension. You know, uh Pew Research has done a a lot on this and uh it’s not AI is not popular, especially with younger demographics. And so going out into the marketplace and being like, We’re AI a and and you have AI answering your phone.

 

Stephanie Everett (23:03)

Well

 

that’s what you and I are talking about last night, right? I think I shared that my husband had some expletives recently. I heard from upstairs where he like, and hung hung hung up the phone. I was like, What is happening? And he was like, just AI bots. I just need I want to talk to a human. Right. And so that’s a thing.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (23:18)

No, and I’ll give a shout Maddie Martin with Smith AI. you know, she was talking about the hybrid intake experience where uh it’s AI with human assist. And I think the point of like the context matters and you know, giving people the option uh to opt out of AI experiences uh where they can. I think that’s a really important thing. But I think it’s just such an interesting thing from a marketing thing because I think so many lawyers think that like being tech forward and AI enabled demonstrates that it’s a competitive advantage.

 

Where a lot of times that actually might be a turnoff, depending on who you’re working with. And then of course, you know, you think about and you’re you’re to your point about like, I’m worried about AI taking my job. I’m not maybe gravitating towards the firms that are like racing to use AI for everything. Like maybe you want a lawyer who’s actually gonna spend the time to have a conversation with you, talk to you, empathize with you, showing up in the community, uh, and that kind of stuff.

 

Stephanie Everett (24:11)

And I think as lawyers, we have to recognize where our value is in just doing that, right? For so many years, I I remember people used to come to me and be like, like, I wanna be a lawyer. I l I love to argue because they watch some TV show or movie and they think that’s what we do. And I used to say, I hope you like to write. Because as a litigator, I spent way more time writing briefs, writing motions than I ever did in a courtroom arguing, which is probably why that housekeeper case was so fun, is because I didn’t have to do any of that. I just got to show up and do the fun part, which

 

was super cool. Um now, so then that means for us, our value we think is is in that, is in drafting. And now we have to shift our mindset and say that actually isn’t maybe that isn’t our value. Maybe it’s in the editing or, you know, the prompting and the editing or in the relationships and the advice and the counseling. But I don’t know that we’ve always trained our lawyers in those skills. How many classes in law school did you take on advising clients? Zero.

 

Sharing bad news.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (25:10)

Right. Yeah. And I and I think that and that’s I think that’s such an interesting thing is because the context matters so much. And at the end of the day, you know, it’s kind of like these old school notions of like no like and trust. I mean, you you hire people that you trust. Like I don’t need to know the nuts and bolts of how you’re delivering legal services. I need to know that I trust you and that because again, we talk about this all the time, but like most clients don’t even know what a good outcome is, right? They just know what it feels like that they’re working with someone who’s cares about them and that they can trust to handle their

 

Really bad situation. Yeah.

 

Stephanie Everett (25:41)

I do leadership training for legal leaders, right? The and one of the things we talk about is how do you build trust? Because guess what? There are tactical things you can do to build trust in your relationships. So just like you’re doing that as a leader, you can do that with your team. You can use those same tactics with your clients and potential clients to build trust. I think for many of us, because we’ve never studied it, we’ve never learned these things, we just think, trust is just something that happens naturally over a long period of time.

 

Gee, you trust me now because you’ve known me for 10 years and you know that I’m gonna show up. That’s not actually how it works. Like I there are legit things we could do to build trust. But as lawyers, we don’t always know these things.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (26:24)

Great stuff. All right. Well I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, but we are running out of time here. Plug time. What would you like people to know about you just wrote a book? Yes. tell us a little bit about the book and how people can find the book.

 

Stephanie Everett (26:37)

Awesome. The new book is Be a Next Level Leader, the Four Cornerstones of Law Firm Leadership. So it’s written for legal professionals and how to be a leader for what know whatever what kind of leader you are. Um so you can go to be a next levelleader.com to find all the information there. And then lawyerist, lawyer IST dot com. I don’t know, we’re just really passionate about helping lawyers with like everything. We just I feel like you and I just took like the whole world view of everything happening in the legal profession right now.

 

And as you can tell, it’s kind of what excites me and I just love helping clients figure out how to navigate all these things.

 

Gyi Tsakalakis (27:14)

Stephanie, awesome to catch up with you. Awesome to see you. Thanks for joining me. Thank you.

 

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