From Prison to the Oscars: The True Story Behind Sing Sing and Rehabilitation Through the Arts

Episode Notes

Transcript

Music:

Want Somebody, please.

Michael Semanchik:

In our last episode, we told the story of John Adrian JJ Velazquez, a man who spent more than 23 years in prison for a murder he didn’t commit. JJ’s story was one of faith, self-discipline, and transformation of finding purpose, even while fighting to prove his innocence. That theme, the idea that change and creativity can exist in the most unlikely places continues. In today’s episode, sing Sing is a powerful new film based on the true story of the rehabilitation through the arts program. Inside New York’s Sing, sing, correctional Facility, blending, fiction and reality. It follows a group of incarcerated men who find purpose and transformation through theater using art to reclaim their humanity within one of America’s most notorious prisons. The film stars Coleman Domingo, alongside a remarkable cast of formerly incarcerated RTA alumni men who lived the story before portraying it on screen more than a prison drama Sing.

Sing is a meditation on redemption, creativity, and the possibility of change even in the darkest of places. Joining me today are two of those men, John Divine, g Whitfield, and Clarence Divine. I Macklan both spent years inside Sing Sing, where they helped build RTA into a transformative force for rehabilitation. John, a writer and performer, co-founded the program and continues to fight for his exoneration while mentoring others through art and advocacy. Clarence served 17 years in prison before turning his own transformation into a life of purpose. Working today as a teaching artist, counselor and advocate for youth and the incarcerated, their stories like Sing, sing itself remind us that change is possible not because of the system, but in spite of it. So I’m going to start today. First, just want to mention that JJ talked about the mental and emotional transformation that happened inside him long before his conviction was overturned, how he found freedom before he left prison walls. And so I want to talk about that same transformation for you all, not through the Courtroom, but through creativity. But before we kind of go and talk about the transformation, I think we got to set up and talk about where we started. So John Divine G, if you could take us back to those early years inside Sing Sing before RTA, before the stage, what was life like for you on the inside? What was the prison like and what did a day look like for you?

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Well, life in prison, prior to RTA, it was a struggle. It was a constant fight. It was constant stress. One of the things about me the minute I was wrongfully convicted and I went upstate, I lived in the prison law, law. So my whole mission at that time was just learning the law, filing motions. I always had this desire to want to help people. So I always did little things like I worked with the grievance committee, I worked with the ILC, I worked with inmate organizations even in Attica, even in Green Haven. So I always had that desire to want to give back in some way. So by the time I got to sing Sing, and I saw that Sing Sing was really a prison that was acclimated to a lot of prison programs, we got together with a few guys. And since people liked Creative arts, they wanted to write, they wanted to do plays, we came up with the idea, you know what?

We should try to create a program. Well, actually it wasn’t that first. We wanted to just do a play. It was just a play. We said, yeah, let’s do this play. And the play was called Reality Emotion. So we did this play. It was a success, it was a complete success. And then we did another play called a Night of Theater, another Success. And then we realized that, oh, listen, we got something good here. Let’s try to create a program. And through Kathryn Kins and the rest of the steering committee, we got together and plus that’s how RTA came about.

Michael Semanchik:

So in those early days, were the prison staff, was the administration supportive in that first play? Were they behind you in that or not really?

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Absolutely not. I mean, it was new and you have to remember when you engage in anything new, it’s always in the initial stage. It’s never really fully embraced. So they felt they were taking a chance, and when they did take the chance, we did what we were required to do. It was a success, and they saw how it had an impact on us, had an impact on the population, even had a positive impact on the administration because they were seeing that the population was really embracing it, and it was keeping guys out of trouble. It was keeping us proactive, it was keeping us busy. And then when we came up with the idea to do RTA as a program, as a rehabilitated program, it was still not thoroughly embraced. But then as we were more successful in our production, as they started seeing guys who were taking the program was taking it serious, they were actually using the arts and the skills.

It was really all about life skills, teaching guys how to manage their life, how to study, how to focus, discipline and management skills was heavily what RTA was about. And it was having a huge impact. And I can say this in a nutshell, RTA was like a lifesaver for so many people, especially for me because finally it had given me an opportunity to take my creative skills and use them in a prosocial way. Prior to coming to prison, I was a dj. As the movie depicts, I was a very famous dj, so I was heavily into the entertainment. I also was a dancer. I danced with a group called Realism and danced on television with Stephanie Mills and Stan Funk, and I went to high school performing arts for dance, took modern dance ballet and all that. So I was always an entertainer. That was something that I’d done practically all my life. So when I got to prison and we came up with the idea of doing a play, oh, it was a no brainer for me because for me, I’ve always realized that arts, and I’m going to describe this now, I see it as an explosive expression of humanity. When you bring arts into a situation, it has this amazing way of just bringing people together. It allows people to look beyond the differences, look beyond the things that separate us, and it just has this amazing way of bringing people together.

Michael Semanchik:

I saw that kind of play out on the screen between Divine I and you, divine G, which I thought was really cool. And I think we’ll get into that in a little bit about how true was the film’s depiction versus what was going on in reality. Before we get into that though, Clarence, I want to give you an opportunity to talk about what life was like for you before RTA too. You talked about carrying a knife until the day you

Clarence Maclin:

Left. Yeah, when I got to prison, man, I was pretty much living the same life. I was living in the street, although I was also wrongfully convicted and I didn’t do the crime I did, but I was the guy they was looking for, you know what I mean? I was the guy. I just didn’t do that particular crime. So I got to prison. It was a total different mindset. I got the son and a daughter at home. I left with my girl, they got to eat, and my daughter’s going to college. She’s her boss, cost three a hundred dollars. And so I just was continue my criminal way of thinking and being that I was insing sing, it was a lot of opportunities to get money in that jail too. That’s where it was. But luckily one night I was on my way to the yard to go continue my nefarious lifestyle, but however, it got shut down because it was raining and lightning outside. And when that happens, they can’t let us in the yard for the lightning strikes. You know what I mean? So they diverted to the auditorium where they was putting on a play,

And I had already heard about the program, but I was never interested in the program because I looked at it as though it was like people coming from the outside to come in and throw a pity party and be like, they get a tax write off for doing something for prisoners, or they get to clear their conscious or something. And I don’t want to be a part of that. But I get down to theater and when I’m down there, I start seeing guys that I respected. I respect these guys in the prison like Divine g, Dino and a few other brothers that was up on stage that I respect these guys and I’m seeing them up on stage and they’re creating something beautiful. And when I was younger, before prison, before the street lifestyle, I was an artist. I liked to draw, paint, sculpt, anything creative with my hands.

So when I saw these guys being creative on stage, it kind turned on that creativity in me and I wanted to be a part of that. Know what I’m saying? And I went, may have went to Divine G because Divine G had been coming to talk to me about this. I knew him already. We already knew each other. Like I said, I respected him. But now seeing it and seeing it, actually, I had never come down and see one. But now seeing it and how it not only affected me, but it affected everybody in here. Everybody in auditorium had a positive effect from this experience, and I wanted to be a part of that. So I go to the brothers, and then this is when I find out that you have to have a whole year with no infractions. You can’t have a ticket. And I’m getting infractions like two times a week over here. So I got to change my behavior now, and I did. I successfully went a whole year without getting any infractions because that’s how passionate I was about being a part of this program.

Michael Semanchik:

That’s awesome. So in the film, divine G approaches you and then you’re shaking some guy

Clarence Maclin:

Down for 500 bucks. That’s based on some reality.

Michael Semanchik:

Okay. So I mean that’s basically just summarizing everything you just said, but you all knew each other before.

Clarence Maclin:

Yeah, we knew each other before that. I wasn’t into that, man. Come on G, I’m good. But anyway, actually

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

They mentioned that in the movie. Remember in the movie Coleman Domingo says, yeah, man, he teaches class at the naacp. JJ said, history class naacp. They got a smart drug dealers. JJ said, yeah, they got a lot of smart drug dealers. So that’s in there.

Clarence Maclin:

But once I got involved, I got to be on stage for the first time, but I had no lines. I was more or less a fixture on stage, and it’s an Elizabethan place, so I’m posturing. I’m up here posturing. You know what I mean? But I guess I postured pretty well because Peter Barro, remember Peter?

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Yep,

Clarence Maclin:

Absolutely. He threw me two lines. So I got two lines now. After the play was over, I went to Peter ero, I went to, everybody said, listen, I’m going to need some more lines, man, I was bitten. I got bit by the bug right then, man. And ever since then I was on the wood every time I’m on stage every time. That’s awesome.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

He made those two lines work. He almost stole a show with those two lines

Michael Semanchik:

I remember. So let’s talk about RTA first. I want to highlight the fact that nationwide recidivism in our prison system is 60%, and in some states it’s higher. I know when I started in innocence work, California had a 72% percent rate. 70%.

Clarence Maclin:

Yep.

Michael Semanchik:

It’s pretty awful. 72% of people are going back, but RTA has less than 3% of its members returning to prison. So clearly something here works. And so I think maybe to start Divine G, can you just describe in the most basic terms, what is RTA and what happens inside those workshops? I think it’s important for people to understand what’s going on in the program,

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

RTA. When you look at the name in and of itself, rehabilitation through the arts, in a nutshell, we take all forms of creative arts, whether it’s writing, singing, dancing, s sculpting, stage development, screenwriting, playwriting, any form of art. And we use it as a vehicle in my perception, as a life skill building component. It’s not about acting, it’s not about performing, it’s not about entertainment. It’s about bringing people together, showing people new ways and ideas of how to critically analyze how to view life from a more healthier, positive component. And actually, RTA is not just about what’s going on on the inside, it’s about what we do on the outside as well. Because we keep tightly knit bonds. We communicate with each other. We formulate what you can reasonably describe as lifelong friendships, lifelong brotherhood, lifelong comradery, ship, lifelong fellowship. And through those elements, people begin to realize that you don’t have to throw a brick when you get outside because there are so many ways of doing things and making money and surviving legally. There’s no reason to go back to all that. Plus, if you ever need shoulder to lean on, you can call divine G, you can call Divine, I can call Dino, you can call jj, and we always have these yearly galls. So there’s always a constant communication. But in essence, the program on the inside was really about formulating humanity and healing components that spiral people into growing and doing better.

Michael Semanchik:

That’s great. So it’s a support system. It’s a life skills teaching program, and it sounds like it forced folks to no longer commit infractions inside the prison. And even in the film they show outside of the sessions, folks are sitting there eating and thinking about their lines. So it’s kind of beyond just the sessions. It’s almost taking over your entire life inside. And I think that’s a really interesting thing.

Clarence Maclin:

That’s exactly what it is. Exactly. Rehabilitation through the arts for me is it’s everything Divine G just described is also a place where you can go and it’s safe to be a human being. It’s safe to be just a man here. You know what I mean? You don’t have to be more than that. It’s safe to just be that, explore that, explore that humanity and expand that humanity. One thing about when you get in touch with that interview through storytelling, because through storytelling, I learned that a lot of the circumstances, a lot of the places I found myself in life, and when I thought I was the only one going through it, I was never the only one. Through these stories, I see that these same similar problems and circumstances have always existed throughout our entire history. The only difference is the only thing that’s different is the way we deal with them. And through storytelling, we get to see how others dealt with them and what may have worked and what may not have worked. We get to see it through storytelling and we get to explore ways to positively change our circumstances.

Michael Semanchik:

I love that. So it’s walking a mile in somebody else’s shoes

Clarence Maclin:

Essentially for a purpose. Because in the onset of theater, this where when they had theater in these big coliseums, there was more than just a show being put on this where you go get all your gossip. They had no internet. This is where you go get everything. This is where you find out who got the best groceries at the market. This where you find out all of these things at the theater, and at the same time while you’re doing this, you may see your life expressed right in front of you. That’s really awesome.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

R TA was so powerful. And the impact that I saw it was having on lives all around us. It inspired me to become an author. I mean a published author from prison. I had written multiple novels,

Clarence Maclin:

Right? Like

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

13, right? I wrote 13 novels. I wrote 13 novels while incarcerated. I was able to get three novels published for short story and a play, and all that was just due to the passion of seeing how writing and entertaining and doing something to inspire people were actually helping people. Even though I was going through misery, through my wrongful conviction, I saw that I still had the power to influence and have an impact. And one of the vows that I made, I said, well, okay, the system is jerking me around and concealing all my evidence, rubber stamping everything, put me through the grinder. But I vowed that I was going to find a way to make sure that when the guys walked out, they didn’t come back. And my way of fighting was to say, guess what? I’m going to make sure guys ain’t going to come back.

So keeping me in here, you’re not going to be letting guys out when they coming back. That’s going to be my way of fighting. So I was doing all sorts of little tactics to try to make my unfortunate state there seems like it had some value, some worth, some, it had to be for a reason. This must be the reason I’m here to help people, to get people out, make sure they don’t come back. That’s why I’m here. I do have that little spiritual component there, and I believe that higher forces are playing some elements, and I believe that there was a higher force, a higher energy, or the will of the universe, or however you want to describe it, was inspiring me to find ways to take this ad and turn it into lemons, take lemons and turn it into lemonade. Lemonade.

Clarence Maclin:

That’s

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

How y’all look at it when you’re going through pain and suffering and you’d wake up every morning asking yourself, why am I here? What happened? How did this happen? I found all the evidence of my innocence. It still can’t get out. I got to be here for a reason. It’s a coping mechanism.

Michael Semanchik:

No, for sure. I think success is the best revenge against this system, right? Show them that you’re successful and all the people that you’re working with.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Frank Sinatra said it best. Massive success.

Michael Semanchik:

We’ll be right back. So let’s switch gears. Let’s talk about the film itself. What was it like to see yourself on the big screen, divine eye? Let’s start with you. What was it like when the movie came out? What

Clarence Maclin:

Were your emotions? Man, it was amazing, man. I mean, the response we got at Toronto, it still blows me away, man. Toronto International Film Festival. Shout out to Canada, man. I ain’t got nothing to do with you and Trump and all y’all doing, man. Shout out, bro. I love y’all. That response, man, it was so genuine, man, because up to that point, we had only seen the film with individuals who was involved with the film. So of course we love it. Of course, everybody here loves it, of course. So to sit in the audience and to hear every time they were supposed to get it, they got it. Every time they were supposed to laugh, they laughed. Every time they were supposed to cry, they cried. And this happened everywhere since, everywhere. But to have that experience, man showed me that this is more than just a feature film.

This is going to be a teaching tool. Because I used to a long time say, when we were in prison, I used to ask my brothers, what would it be if society had to look here for examples of peace, for examples of humanity? What would it be? How could they keep the gates locked if we were the example? So for this film to have this type of success with this type of message, the messaging that we put into this for this message was carefully crafted into this over a period of decades. I mean, because this message, I stand on the shoulders of some great brothers, G, even David, Wayne, Brighton, Dino,

Michael Semanchik:

All

Clarence Maclin:

Of these guys, great guys, performers, beasts. You know what I’m saying? For me to allow anyone to take an iota of integrity from our message would be a disservice to my brothers that did it before me. That invited me in.

Michael Semanchik:

Yeah, divine. G, what was it like for you going back in and doing the filming? You spend a bunch of time in a prison and then you’re back in a prison setting. Was that nerve wracking going back and revisiting this, or was this challenging for you?

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Well, to some extent, it’s always this stressful to go back into an environment where you definitely don’t want to go back under any circumstances, but I always knew that there was a bigger mission involved, that there was a purpose for this, that we were here to create some kind of art that was going to have an impact. I mean, despite the fact that you can’t predict the future, but for some reason, after we wrote multiple scripts, now bear in mind the script that we actually ended up with. I mean, we went through scripts almost like seven, eight, but this version didn’t work. That didn’t work. This didn’t work. I was going to be the charact.

Clarence Maclin:

I seen Clint tear script up. Just say what you want, man, because just go ahead.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

But you know what? When we finally got to this script, for some reason I just felt like, and I said, and I said it. I said, yo, y’all, I think stars is opening up on this one. And I kept telling everybody this. He said that. And amazingly, when we was at the Oscar, every time I see Monique, I see Craig, I see Clint, I can tell him all. I said, didn’t I tell y’all the stars are, don’t open up on this one. You called it Divine G. It’s like as a writer, amazing experience. Got to remember as a writer, you can sense when you’re hitting certain marks, and I’ve written 13 novels and I wrote almost 12 screenplays. When I got into my writing mission, I was obsessed with it. I got to admit, I was obsessed because it was so therapeutic. It was like I was writing these stories and I was escaping. It was so healing and therapeutic that I just couldn’t stop writing. And then when I shared it with other people, when they started writing, I seen how they were embracing that product and healing. And I said, yo, this writing stuff is powerful. It allows you to tap into emotions and solve problems and feel good and help. Yeah, man, I seen that too.

Clarence Maclin:

When we write or whenever you get in that zone, when you creating, whenever you creating, there’s a zone. There’s a certain zone that creators going. It’s been times when I’ve been in my cell and I’m doing a portrait or something, a painting or something, and I’m trying to get everything right. And then the next thing I know, birds are chirping, sun is coming up. I was assumed I even realized, and I think that happens anytime a creator gets into that creative place. You know what I mean? Yeah.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Like I said, creative arts are an explosive expression of humanity. That is something that I genuinely believe. When you infuse arts into any kind of element that involves humans and people coming together, it just has this healing element to it because people can look beyond the colors, the religions, this and all those other things that separate us. We look beyond that and we go there to heal each other, to come together to communicate the vibe. And it’s a powerful instrument of humanity. Very powerful.

Michael Semanchik:

How much of when you were ripped up 12 scripts, and there’s a certain amount of creativity that goes into making a feature film like this, it’s not a documentary or both of you, and let’s start with you, divine G, were you happy with how authentic the film turned out? Were there things you wanted to be included in the film that didn’t get included? Or were there things they put in there that you weren’t happy with?

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Listen, the end product, I was totally happy with it. I mean, there was some scenes that were supposed to be in there that we had to take out because of time constraints. And I know Divine would call this one, the one about my baby brother. My baby brother died when I was young. He was like a baseball fanatic, and he died of a heart condition. And there was a very powerful emotional scene with Coleman Domingo, me and Divine talking about how me and my brother’s relationship was. And it was a real tear jerker. It was probably the most tear jerking seen in the joint, but we took it out because of time constrain. I would’ve loved to see that in there. But as far as the parole board hearing, believe it or not, that parole board hearing was powerful. Elements was taken straight out of my transcripts. Remember the part where she said, are you acting now? Acting now? That was taken out of my transcript word forward. So I was very pleased with that, even though there were other elements, because the parole board hearings obviously longer than a few minutes, but the way we conceptualized it and capitalized it and covered all of the key areas, it was beautiful. It was beautiful,

And I had no complaints. I had none whatsoever. And I must say Coleman Domingo did a spectacular job at me. Spectacular job. He had my right energy.

Michael Semanchik:

Did Coleman spend a lot of time with you to kind of learn about the energy that you have?

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

We spent some time. We talked, we had a few meals together, we collaborate. But what Coleman Domingo really did, he wanted to find out the essence of who I was. So it just him talking with me, he was talking with the groups, talking with the people around me, the cast, because the best people that tell you who a person is, is the people that observe that person. You know what I’m saying? Who’s divine G? You wrote talk to people. Divine G is who he is, like where the people want talk about the divine. I, people who who’ve been with him around him for years and years will tell you who he’s, and I think he did a spectacular job. I mean, I have no complaints. And look, he got nominated for a Best Actors award. I mean, I’m blown away with that one. And I’m thrilled that he was able to portray me in a honorable man with integrity, with that love, passion and that social fire to want to help. And that’s me. And I’m grateful. I’m blessed beyond imagination. To have a spectacular actor such as Coleman Domingo portray me and do a spectacular job at it. Excellent.

Michael Semanchik:

Absolutely divine eye. What would you have added to the film that got cut or what were the things that thought maybe could have been changed?

Clarence Maclin:

Well, I think there was one line that I would’ve liked to got in. It wasn’t my line, it was a line. In fact, it was my line, but it was for Divine G. At the end, when you see us sitting at the table and I’m talking to him and I’m asking about his daughters and his son, and I’m telling him about my son and my daughter, the last thing I say to him is, don’t forget your daughters man. I wish I’d have got that line in.

But other than that, man, I think everything else was spot on as far as what the actual message, the message that we agreed upon that we wanted to have put out there. I think that the movie caught everything that we wanted to put in there. What we wanted to show is that people ain’t here are more than prison, it’s more than prisoners here. It’s a lot more going on inside and this population is not abnormal. This is the norm In every prison, there’s a section of people, a portion of population that just want to be better. People want to get out, add on to society in a positive way in every prison. But see, this mainly media is going to only shine a light on the corruption of the officers or the violence of the prisoners because that’s what sells these stories of humanity in prison, we don’t even watch prison movies because we don’t see ourselves in them. It’s actually demoralizing us. So my crowd shuns away from even watching them. We are not the animals that they depict us to be. We more you going to find us in the law library, you’re going to find us studying. You going to find us getting college degrees and things of this nature. We not in here wasting our time or just trying to continually add on to the negative stereotypes and tropes that are put out there about us. We ain’t feeding that.

Michael Semanchik:

I think the film did a great job of showing all of that and more, and I really loved the transformation that they cast on the screen. For you, divine Eye, I thought it was a really awesome way to kind of show the impact of RTA, just on the film on a whole, but on you individually in that role.

Clarence Maclin:

Yeah, that character is like a culmination of my own personal life experience, but also behaviors and things that I witnessed while I was in prison for 17 years, all wrapped up to give you that arc so that you can get the arc and see the transformation.

Michael Semanchik:

Yeah, the final scene, divine G, you walk out of prison, divine eye is there to pick you up. Is that based on truth? Did that happen? Okay, I wondered if that was it or did they just tie it up in?

Clarence Maclin:

But that was a hope for all of us. That’s a hope for every prisoner that somebody is there,

Michael Semanchik:

Somebody’s there.

Clarence Maclin:

That’s the hope somebody that was that message. That’s the hope of every prisoner that represented your network system when you get out. That represented some of the conversations we had before we got in the car that depicts the networking, that depicts that we take care of ourselves when we come home. And that part is based on truth.

Michael Semanchik:

We’ll be right back after this break. Well, let’s talk about that. I mean, that’s a perfect lead into the next topic, which is the reentry aspect of it and how challenging and difficult it can be, especially if you walk out of prison and you have to get on a bus and go to a city you’d never been to and how challenging that would be. Divine G, what was one of the hardest things you had to deal with when you came home from prison?

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

I mean, the craziest thing, this may sound crazy and ironic or out of this world, but the minute I came across a street, a major highway, everything, the cars was moving too fast, I couldn’t get across the street. I was stuck. I was like, oh,

Clarence Maclin:

Cars. And that anxiety, that anxiety starts.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

It was the anxiety. And to this day I mention that because it rattled me. It had me disoriented. My son was like, yo, pop, you all right? I’m like, yeah, yeah, hold up. These cars are moving a little too fast. And that’s how disoriented is because remember, when you are in prison, you’re not around vehicles and cars, and that’s like something that just disappeared from your whole world for 20 something years. And when you confront it and get in front of one of these moving vehicles and see how fast all these cars are moving, it is disoriented. It’s terrifying. But for the most part, it was pretty rough for me. I didn’t come home to a rich red carpet, families with money dripping all out of the place. So it was a struggle. I mean, it was a struggle. I mean, I was blessed that I had a supportive system.

I had my mom’s. My mom’s was my number one anchor. She was, oh my God, I just recently lost her. And I’m devastated by that because she was my number one supporter. In fact, when you look at the movie, sing, sing is dedicated in her memory to her. And Mr. Kelly, he also died around the time. So that’s what the movies was dedicated to. Without her, I mean it probably would’ve been super, super hard. Also, I had some good support. I had RTA, we used to go to the galas, RTA used to give me little metro cards and little, it was support. I had some support. The reports in society gave a few little things here and there. And for the most part, I was always an adamant person who was a worker. I was a writer, I was an organizer. I was doing this. So I got out, started my own entertainment company.

And the craziest thing is within six months of my release, I went on a world tour with Little Wayne. I went on Little America’s Most Wanted 2013 tour, and I sight seated the whole world and shocked everybody. And the craziest way that this happened is because of when I was a famous DJ back in the seventies, and I was like, I did what I always do. I’m a natural born helper. I saw this little guy, this little guy named Ey. He lived in my building. He was a little guy, little baby guy, but he was fascinated with the DJing and he looked up to me. So I used just let him carry my records. I used to let him come behind the rope and used to show off for his little friends. Hey, I’m over here with the bond G, give me this record. And he was like my little mascot. Everywhere I go, he little overweight little kid. And man, when I came home, the man came to get me in a Bentley because when I was in prison, I knew he was doing good with Lil Wayne and all that. But when I got home, man, the man picked me up, gave me this and offered me a job. He said, listen, Divine G, if it wasn’t for you, I would not be who I am today. Right now he’s rule Wayne Road Maner, he’s Chris

Brown. But just on the basis of just showing love and helping people. That came back 10 folds. And I used that story to tell people that brother, you never know who you are amongst and you treat people kindly because you will never know when that thing is going to come back tenfold. And it worked for me and all I did is show the God a little bit of love, and to this day, he contributes me to his sodo success.

Clarence Maclin:

You did more than just show him a little bit of love. You gave him more than that. You gave him some inspiration to be somebody, man, you let him know that you valuable. You let him know that his opinion count, his efforts, count all those little things in that one gesture, and that’s important.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

I used just be just nice to him. Him and his little sister. He just have the little sister there too. I said, take care of her. Give him a little money here. Go store. Just be nice. However, despite all of that, when I got back, I tried to get a job working with a C as a youth development specialist. These people just blatantly discriminated against me basically because I had a murder conviction. They wouldn’t let me work, and I had to eventually take them to court. Then I was also working as a youth counselor with Dino. I was working with Council for Unity. So my struggle’s been a little hard, even though the little Wayne thing gave me a little bit of money the bank had saved. It was still rough. I applied for certain housing situations, this place called New York City Housing Connect. They just blatantly discriminate against me.

I could never get an apartment with them. But the thing about this is, is that when you have these criminal convictions, man, especially a homicide, it is like a death sentence. This thing haunts you for life. Wherever you go, it haunts you, haunts you, haunts you. Even right now, I’m a New York City train operator. I work for New York City Transit, and I can even sense that there’s a little discrimination there. Even though transit out of most agencies will give you an opportunity to work if you do have criminal convictions, because at least they do apply Article 23 A, which is a state law that forbids discrimination based on your criminal conviction. But most of these other agencies, oh man, they discriminate. But in a nutshell, it ain’t easy, but I am blessed

Clarence Maclin:

In it ain’t easy coming home.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

I was blessed in the sense that I had developed myself before I even walked out of prison, which is what RTA teaches. One of the key elements is that we teach individuals, you got to start preparing yourself from the minute you walk in those prison doors. The minute they say you sentence this, you immediately start working on yourself about how you are going to survive when you get out, what you want your life to look like when you walk out the door, which means you got to start working on you the minute you walk in those places.

Michael Semanchik:

Divine eye. What was it like when you came home? When

Clarence Maclin:

I came home, we were just wrapping up a few Good Men, and I was a stage man on that particular play, and I was leaving after that. So in the documentary, they video me leaving out and Saboteur films, Nick and Dave, shout out to them. They did an excellent job with that particular documentary. And April Watson, a friend that I had met while I was in prison through another friend, and she became my very first manager. She believed in me just what I was doing with the plays. Remember we used to send the DVDs of the plays home?

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Yeah,

Clarence Maclin:

Just sending that and showing her that, you know what I mean? That this is what I’m doing and showing her through my college degrees and all that. Like he said, the work that I needed to do to prepare myself for getting out started when I really realized that this was the path I needed to be on, that’s when the work on me started. So by the time I got to that door walking out, and this is all documented, the crazy is you can see this, if you go look up Saboteur Films, dramatic Escape, that’s the name of the documentary, you’re going to see me walking out the door and he asked me, what are we going to do next? I said, well, I guess we going to go get something to eat. Two things I wanted to do, getting out of prison, man was eat the biggest steak I ever had in my life and take a Bath Man, 17 years of taking a shower, man, it’s crazy, man.

I needed a bath. So that was one of the things I wanted to do. And then getting out, man, once you get out initially, it’s so beautiful, man. Everything is great. You could introduce to all the things that you miss. When I got to 42nd Street and Goofy and all these dudes, Mickey Mouse and anybody running down around on 42nd Street, this is different 42nd Street than I remember, man, totally different. This is different than I remember. There was no Mickey Mouse and Goofy running around here, you know what I mean? And there was a lot of cultural shocks, neighborhoods that have been gentrified and places that I didn’t recognize anymore. And I grew up here my whole life and they look so different now. You know what I mean? And so a lot of those things was culturally shocking. And then my housing situation, I had paroled to Queens to a house of a friend that I had met while I was in prison and didn’t really know what the situation was like.

So when I get there, and mind you, I’m enrolled in Mercy College too because I got six more classes so I can get my bachelor’s degree. So I, I’m working in the daytime. I was working at a Mexican restaurant where I’m the only guy here that speak English. So I learned how to make guacamole really well. So I’m working there. It’s electronica in Brooklyn underneath the Brooklyn Bridge. And when I get off from there, I’m going to college at night. Now my last class ends at nine o’clock, right? I’m in the shelter. The door closes at nine o’clock. If you don’t make it there at nine o’clock, you got to start the whole process over of getting a bed. That means you got to go to the bullpen, you got to wait for bed again. You got to go through all the initial, and this is every night. I got to do this now. You know what I mean? So it was difficult and I seen how it affected my grades because when I was in prison, going to college, top grades never had less than an A.

Michael Semanchik:

That was just a focus at the time,

Clarence Maclin:

More focus. But now that I’m dealing with this college, work, housing all on the same plate, juggling, and I’m in a whole new environment, I got to get on the train to get here on time. Then in the midst of all of this, I lose my id, right? This is right after I go to parole, get fingerprinted. They take pictures for my id, I leave. I lose my id. I come back. The very next day, I lost my id, bro, we can’t help you. I said, you can’t help me. You just fingerprinted me. Took my picture, everything. So now you can’t help me. So I asked him, so if I leave out of here right now and happen to get some police contact, well then we’re going to have to violate you because that’s against the parole rules. But I’m telling you right now, I don’t have identification. No way. I got the best advice from in that situation. A homeless person told me, go to the nearest police station and report your wallet stolen. They’re going to give you a list of items that was in your wallet. Identification card is one. Put that down. And then they’re going to give you a piece of paper that you’re going to use as an identification until you can get id

Michael Semanchik:

Again, A homeless

Clarence Maclin:

Person told me that, man, my parole officer could have told me that.

Michael Semanchik:

Of course,

Clarence Maclin:

If they were interested in my rehabilitation, I believe they should have told me that.

Michael Semanchik:

Sure.

Clarence Maclin:

But they didn’t, bro. Whoa. That’s how they do, man. And that was my experience first coming home. But then on the other side of that, people from rehabilitation opened up their doors to me and let me live with them because I was in a volatile situation living in Queens, you know what I mean? Going into a neighborhood that was very volatile and just the way I walk can cause confusion sometimes, just the way I carry and conduct myself. I don’t know how to put my head down. I don’t know how to bow down. I don’t know how to be less than, and that’s intimidating. You know what I mean? Let me intimidate some and you may read me wrong. You know what I mean? Same. And in that situation, it wasn’t good because I see just my mere present was challenging to something. So I got out of that situation that’s going to drag me back into a mentality I really don’t need to be in. So you know what I mean? I had to get out of that situation, get myself out of there, and people from rehabilitation through the arts, open up their door for me. Big Kate and her husband opened up their door to me and let me live with them for a period of time until I got my thing together.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

I missed a few components myself. I mean the Jeffrey Desco Fit Foundation for Justice, he had actually helped me with a reentry apartment. So when you walk out, you don’t have any money. You broke,

Clarence Maclin:

You get $40 on a bus ticket.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

That’s it. So that’s when you start with life. So imagine walking out with just $40 and nothing. No bank accounts, no nothing. Obviously I got on welfare because what else you do? Had to go through that. That was a crazy ordeal. It was a challenge,

Clarence Maclin:

Bro. Yeah. I didn’t even get on. I couldn’t even couldn’t take it, bro. When with all the hoops and loops you got to jump through. I was like, you know what? Keep that man. I’m good man

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

With me. My parole officer made me take that. He made me go, you got to go there. You’re going to need this going, need that and do it. I kind of agreed with ’em because when you walk out, you got to first find a job, you got to feed yourself.

Clarence Maclin:

It seems like that whole process is dehumanizing. They try to

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Dehumanizing, dehumanizing, and they make it so complex and so difficult. They make it, like you said, a thousand different hurdles. But I mean, it was only a few months because by the time I got that little wage job, I was shaking and moving a little bit. You know what I’m saying?

Michael Semanchik:

Well, I think that’s a testament to RTA though that you both ended up making it through this incredible challenge that you’ve described and setting you up for success.

Clarence Maclin:

Well, you know what else? Know what never happened though with neither one of us. We never went back to a criminal lifestyle to make it. We did everything we could do. It took a lot in my situation sometimes man, to be like, because you know us, we are making an excuse. This is what before RTA, before the training, before college, before the integrity that our whole dear to my heart was there. Now, before all of that, it’s easy to say, yo, yo, see, this is why I do what the fuck I do. This is why.

Michael Semanchik:

Well, we’re talking about some of the legal things you got going on, divine G. Do you want to talk briefly about your fight for exoneration? I want to give you an opportunity to just talk about that and what folks can do to learn about your case and what you’re hoping for.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Well, currently right now, me and my attorneys, we are working on a post-conviction motion, which is known as a four 40 point 10 motion. We’re planning on going into court, and technically this is going to be my last shot, and what we are doing is we formulated a petition, and this petition can be [email protected] divine g.org. We kept the website so simple, so it’s easy to remember.

Michael Semanchik:

We’ll put that in the show notes for sure.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Right? What the site does is it shares my evidence of my innocence so that you can make your own assessment of the nature of my innocence claims. And when you finished, just simply sign the petition. If you agree and you want to assist in this journey of me acquiring justice, sign the petition. And when we do have this four 40 point 10 motion hearing, we are going to be reaching out to the public hoping that they can participate in that whole process, like show up in numbers and so forth. Because I am convinced about one thing. My case is one of those delicate cases that if there is no public outcry, it is going to be swept under the rug as was done with millions of other cases. If you look at the George Floyd situation, they were going to sweep that George Floyd thing right under the rug.

What shook them up is that people started looking at that video. This was murder, this was pure murder. And then eventually it caught a worldwide attention. And finally they realized, okay, we can’t cover this one up. My case is sort of like that without some kind of public outcry or public support, I believe I’m dead in the water because my case involves a gracious prosecutorial misconduct. You got a man on an audio tape specifically saying, I had nothing to do with it. It wasn’t him. And he identifies this actual co-defendant as a man named Patrick McQue.

Michael Semanchik:

So that part of the parole hearing was true then?

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Absolutely. But that’s one of several pieces of evidence. You got an eyewitness, a woman, Marjorie Shaq, who saw the actual shooters, told the police it wasn’t me, and they kept showing her pictures and she kept saying, that is not the man. And you know what they did? They buried all of this. They hid all of this. They went and filed a crack head witness. They gave ’em a script, said, listen, this is what you saw, and the next thing you know, I’m convicted. I walk into the Courtroom during the trial. I have no clue who’s accusing me at that time in Brooklyn in the eighties, they used a tactic called trial by ambush. Trial by ambush is a tactic where they find witnesses. And then when you go to trial, they just spring this at you. Then they give you a mountain of cases, a mountain of stacks, of piles of documents, knowing that it’s impossible for your lawyer to read this on the eve of trial, which means your lawyer got one night to read it, and the next day you’re hearing testimony. I mean, we got one of the most brutal systems that you could imagine, especially back in the eighties during the crack era, because people were scared. The crack was running wild. It was crime, it was rampant. I understand that fear, but you got to understand that fear oftentimes lead to cases like mines like jj.

Michael Semanchik:

Yeah, I was going to say it mask the truth

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

And they rush to judgment. Don’t look at all of the evidence. And then let’s face it, you got to a lot of corrupt police officers, a lot of unscrupulous das. You got a lot of immoral judges. I mean, I’ve got to put it plain and simple. A lot of this happens because judges see that there’s problems and they weak, they are. Then you merge a little bit of racism with all that and you got a real messed up situation. People going to go to jail for crimes they didn’t commit, and I just happened to be one of them.

Michael Semanchik:

To wrap it all up, I want to come full circle back to jj and just if you could just talk about J’S involvement in RTA, how you interacted with him and just your thoughts on JJ in case.

Clarence Maclin:

Well, me and J’s relationship was outside of RTA. However, he was a part of a crew that always made sure RTA got what we needed as far as stages being built. He was a part of that crew. He was a part of the crew that supported the program, and he was also good friends with many of us. You what I mean? All of us. He was a great guy. And when it came down to doing the movie, he had just gotten out, exonerated. What I mean, we all in the spirit of, and he was there and we all utilize him in different capacities. Whether it was getting specific wood cut in a certain way that we needed all stage. We can go to JJ oj. We need that. You know what I mean?

Michael Semanchik:

A man that could get things done.

Clarence Maclin:

Yeah, he was a part of that crew. You know what I mean? And like I said, he’s always been a good friend to me and a good friend to all of us. So having them come on board was a no brainer for us.

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

That’s awesome. Absolutely. But you got to remember, me and Divine are executive producers of sinks, and so

When that was proposed and it came up, we was all for it. Absolutely. Me and J’s relationship also entails our law library exploits when we were in Detroit prison law libraries. But the craziest thing about me and jj, we never really went in depth with our wrongful convictions. I would see him over there. He would see me over there. I would see him with Eric Glisten a lot, him and Eric. Glisten was good a lot. He was with another guy, so everybody had they little cliques or whatever, but JJ was a lifesaver because he was with the ILC and he was with also this Latino organization and me as a found member of RTA and as a steering committee member, I used to have to be one of the guys that used to go out and try to

Clarence Maclin:

Help. And he was the president of the naacp I

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

President of NAACP too. Naacp. So I had a unique relationship with JJ as the president of the naacp, him ILC, him with Latinos needles. So me and him lived in the school building. But the craziest thing, we never really discussed our wrongful convictions, but that’s how it is in prison. You don’t just walk up to people and say, Hey, guy, guess what? I’m innocent, but I should see him in law very sugg. Guess what? Me too. Yeah, that’s what you got to get. I used to JJ in there with the books, and he used to see me in there with them books. We lived in the law library, lived in there. And the way you can tell when a man is innocent of a crime he did not commit, you will see that man in the law library. Most people who have genuinely been brutally mistreated by the system in there wrongfully, you can tell,

Clarence Maclin:

Are fighting

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

You in them all. They’re fighting because they’re fighting. They are fighting him, never getting

Clarence Maclin:

Up. They denied my last attempt at freedom. Two days after I got released, my motion was in for at least three years. They had three years to deny it. Two days after I got released, they denied my motion. Now they know you don’t really have the resources all the time to commit to a law library or to pursue this case. So that’s what, these are one of the tactics, like he told you about the ambush tactic. This is the stall tactic that they

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Oh, yeah, they stall. In fact, my conviction review unit complaints sat in the District attorney’s office for over seven years. Over seven years, and that’s what they do. But like I always said, I’m going to continue fighting this to the day I die, and that’s my vow. And even if, let’s say, God forbid something doesn’t actually unfold the way we hope that you’re praying that it does, I’m still going to fight. I’m going to continue to fight, and it’s going to, that’s it. As long as I got rep in my body, it’s going to be a continual fight. Because let me tell you something. When someone steals, I mean literally robs you of 25 years. And that pain and that suffering and that loneliness, that isolation, that misery, it’s unforgettable.

Clarence Maclin:

You can’t get back

John “Divine G” Whitfield:

Unforgettable. It leaves permanent scars. But through RTA and other rehabilitated and through other elements of healing, you learn to cope. But those injuries and those scars, they’re permanent. They don’t really leave, man. It’s a journey. Painful.

Michael Semanchik:

Well, we appreciate both of you telling your stories today. We’ll make sure Divine G, that there’s a link in the show notes so that people can learn more about your case and sign your petition and support your innocence. And we’re hopeful that you get the truth to come to light sooner rather than later. And we’ll be tracking and following your story as that kind of continues to unfold. Thank you both for joining today.

Clarence Maclin:

Thanks for having us. Thank you.

Michael Semanchik:

JJ Velasquez taught us that even innocence can’t protect someone from a broken system, but redemption, resilience and art can restore what prison tries to take away. Clarence John, thank you both for sharing your truth and for showing that creativity can be a kind of freedom all its own. To our listeners, sing, sing is available now and the Real Life Rehabilitation through the Arts program continues to transform lives. We’ll link to both in the show notes. If you like what you heard, share with your friends, leave a comment or review the show on Apple Podcasts and tune in next time. I’m Michael Semantic, executive director of the Innocence Center. Thank you for listening to For The Innocent For the Innocent is produced by myself and Adam Lockwood. Our assistant producer is Ally Kvidt. Our theme song is by exoneree William Michael Dillon For the Innocent is a proud part of the Legal Talk Network, an InfoTrack company.

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