Who Gets the Dog? Why Divorcing Couples Fight Dirtier Over Pets Than Kids with Attorney Maggie Brister

Episode Notes

Transcript

Maggie Brister [00:00:00]:
And so at the consult, the dogs were not mentioned. It wasn’t a big deal. We just moved forward. And then about, I don’t know, halfway through the case, it was 2, 3 months in, I was getting emails after email from a, from the other attorney opposing counsel saying that we have to deal with these dogs. We have to deal with the dogs. They’re fighting over the dogs. And I was, I talked to my client like, what’s going on? It’s like he started yelling, she’s trying to take the dogs away from me. And I’m like, what the hell? Where did this come from?

Speaker B [00:00:28]:
What dogs?

Maggie Brister [00:00:29]:
I was like, what’s, what’s going on? He said, well, she came to my house and she came here to get some clothes and now she’s demanding these dogs. She can’t even care for these dogs. I’m like, try to calm down. Don’t freak out over this. Let’s talk about it.

David Crum [00:00:41]:
Brooke, today our topic is one that is near and dear to my heart, which are pet custody cases. As a cat dad, I can really empathize. A cat dad. I’ll tell you something, I would pay my spouse to take all of our pets in a divorce. So I don’t quite understand this.

Speaker B [00:01:00]:
I don’t believe you. I’ve seen you with those cats.

David Crum [00:01:03]:
Don’t mistake the love of the cat for me for true love. I, uh—

Speaker B [00:01:07]:
That’s alarming.

David Crum [00:01:08]:
I don’t really understand these cases at the end of the day, um, but they come up way more than you would think. And honestly, these are cases where, uh, I would say sometimes the people care more about the pets than they care about their kids.

Speaker B [00:01:25]:
Well, you see people instead of, especially, you know, younger generations, my generation, it’s like people are, you know, using pets to replace having kids.

David Crum [00:01:35]:
Well, they’re a heck of a lot cheaper, so it’s not a terrible strategy.

Speaker B [00:01:38]:
A heck of a lot nicer too.

David Crum [00:01:40]:
Heck of a lot nicer.

Speaker B [00:01:41]:
Just from what I can say from my nieces and nephews. Love them.

David Crum [00:01:44]:
If I could trade my daughter for a dog, I might do it. No, that’s terrible. Look, here’s the deal. Like, their case— and these are heartbreaking. I’m just remembering a case where I had— you know what a guardian ad litem is, right?

Speaker B [00:01:56]:
Yeah.

David Crum [00:01:57]:
The court appoints an attorney to represent the child, and then the child will go and talk to the guardian ad litem, and then the guardian ad litem will talk to the judge. And this girl, I’ll never forget this. She said— she said to the guardian ad litem, I think my dad loves his boa constrictor more than he loves me.

Speaker B [00:02:17]:
That’s so sad.

David Crum [00:02:19]:
That is so sad. So luckily we have a guest on today, um, who’s gonna come on, who’s an attorney. She’s not a pet custody attorney, there’s no such thing, but she is someone who—

Speaker B [00:02:29]:
But if there was, she would be the pet custody attorney.

David Crum [00:02:34]:
If there was one, this would be the go-to for sure. So she’s got a ton of, uh, experience talking about these cases, and we’re gonna hear how wild the stories can get and how they work through these things and how these things ultimately get settled. As usual, I’m going to ask the readers— or the readers— I’m going to ask the listeners a question. There’s going to be an animal that we don’t fight over. I haven’t fought over it. She hasn’t fought over it. I want people to guess what that is. But we’re going to hear all kinds of stories.

David Crum [00:03:03]:
We’re going to hear a story about bearded dragons, which I don’t think you know, even knew what it was. I didn’t know what it was.

Speaker B [00:03:09]:
I didn’t know what it was. That sounds like a made-up name.

David Crum [00:03:12]:
Until today, but it’s something you apparently fight over in a case. They’re very loving creatures.

Speaker B [00:03:17]:
Apparently, they’re very affectionate.

David Crum [00:03:18]:
That’s my understanding. They’re very— they love skin on skin, skin to skin contact.

Speaker B [00:03:22]:
What’s one pet, if your ex said, I really want this, you’d say, yeah, take it?

David Crum [00:03:26]:
For me?

Speaker B [00:03:28]:
For the listener, but you can answer the question, David.

Maggie Brister [00:03:31]:
Yeah.

David Crum [00:03:31]:
So the first question, what have we never fought about? And it’s not an exotic animal. It’s something you could guess. And what is one thing that you just would refuse to fight over? You would pay to have your spouse take it. The other thing is, Brooke, that I think is important before we get to the guest, I want people to take some advice from me today. And that is this: don’t freak out when your spouse starts making threats about the pets, because this is a strategy that, well, both sides do it, but I think men probably do it a little bit more. You know, they make a big deal like, well, I’m going to take the dog. I want the dog. And they’re doing that on purpose.

David Crum [00:04:13]:
They’re doing it to shake you up. They’re doing it to try to get leverage. They’re doing it—

Speaker B [00:04:18]:
Maybe to latch on.

David Crum [00:04:19]:
Oh, and to latch on. Yep. Yep. And that’s another thing that we see. I honestly, Brooke, I don’t think it’s about the pets.

Speaker B [00:04:27]:
Maybe for one party, but I definitely feel like the opposite end of the party, maybe the one that’s causing more of the conflict. I think it’s It’s usually not about the pet. It’s usually that hanging on that last little bit.

David Crum [00:04:43]:
I hope people understand this. You can’t stop a divorce. Like, you can’t. If the other side— it’s not the old days. It’s not the ’40s, right? You don’t have to. All you have to show is you’re incompatible and you get your divorce. And so there’s nothing like, I’m not going to give her the divorce. But what they do do is they hang on through the pets.

David Crum [00:05:04]:
So I think when the dog is finally exchanged and the pet issues are all done, then that becomes the final end of the relationship. And I think that’s why people hang on to it so tightly and why these cases really do get out of— just get wildly out of control. So anyway, as much experience as I have and as much as you can imagine, I loved dealing with who gets the dog. in a divorce. Maggie Brister is somebody who actually has a lot more experience than I did, so I’m excited. Let’s, let’s bring her onto the show. Welcome everybody. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome to the show attorney Maggie Brister, who is a managing attorney at New Mexico Legal Group, and she is one of our premier divorce and family law attorneys.

David Crum [00:05:58]:
And Maggie had an interesting route to coming to New Mexico Legal Group. She started as a prosecutor, so did start on the dark side of things. I think you eventually saw the light, Maggie, and worked in the public defender’s office, of all places, for a while where you got all of your court experience. And then you came and you joined New Mexico Legal Group, and you have become, by all accounts, by all accounts, you have become—

Maggie Brister [00:06:23]:
The best.

David Crum [00:06:24]:
The specialist in pet custody cases. It’s all she does are pet custody cases. I’m kidding, of course. But for some weird reason, you have a lot of cases involving pet custody, which is why we’ve asked you on the show. Of course, I know you’re busy, so thanks for joining us. It’s nice to see you again.

Maggie Brister [00:06:43]:
Thank you for having me here. And pet custody cases, I love talking about these. They’re always interesting.

David Crum [00:06:51]:
Yeah, let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about it. So just to be clear, the people who—

Speaker B [00:06:56]:
About pet custody.

David Crum [00:06:57]:
To be clear, we don’t take pet custody cases, right? They start as part of divorce. So how do— tell Brooke how they start. Like, how do these cases end up developing on your docket?

Maggie Brister [00:07:11]:
I don’t know this is going to be an issue until much later on in the case, typically, because—

Speaker B [00:07:17]:
So they don’t come to you asking, hey, I need a pet custody agreement. That’s never how it starts.

David Crum [00:07:22]:
No, we don’t do that. Don’t call us for this. No.

Maggie Brister [00:07:25]:
No, it usually starts off with just a typical divorce. Um, you know, and when we do a consult, we talk about the law, we talk about what division we’re going to do, assets, debts, things like that. And sometimes they’ll bring up, oh, we also have pets. And I’m like, okay, well, you know, that’s also something that we’ll talk about during the case, who, where the pets will go. And then after we’ve kind of, usually when the parties separate, that’s when, if there’s going to be an issue, that’s when the issue starts. And then out of nowhere, sometimes it feels like the fighting begins. So when we’re talking about pet custody, it’s usually the issue is, is that the parties are fighting over the animals. Sometimes even they fight more over the animals than they do when they have children and they’re trying to figure out the timesharing with children.

David Crum [00:08:15]:
Oh, I could do that. I would actually pay— I would pay my, my ex to take the animals. Right. That’s my deal. But that is absolutely Not what’s happening. Um, what— talk to us about some of the, some of the wildest cases you’ve had. I know, I know you had one we were talking about the other day, and how did that one start?

Maggie Brister [00:08:35]:
Sure. So I had this, uh, I had this client. Um, it was a— they’ve been married over 50 years.

Speaker B [00:08:42]:
Over 50 years?

Maggie Brister [00:08:43]:
Yeah, it— that happens. We get some cases where they’ve been married for 50-plus years. And I’ve got— I did a divorce not that long ago where they were married in 1969. Oh my gosh.

Speaker B [00:08:57]:
I guess everyone has a straw.

David Crum [00:08:59]:
Oh my God.

Maggie Brister [00:09:00]:
Yeah. I was like, oh, this— been married longer than most people have been alive. So I was like, all right. But this one in particular, it started off with some domestic violence accusations. And I had husband and wife just was done. She didn’t want to do this anymore. And so she wanted to get divorced. So again, divorce case.

Maggie Brister [00:09:20]:
When I’m seeing this, okay, I’m looking at, they have children, but they’re adults. They have grandchildren. So we don’t have to deal with custody issues, just divorce. And we were looking at, they didn’t have a lot of assets. They’re both retired. So Social Security, there was a house. They have tons of items in the house because that’s where they lived for 50 years. And so at the consult, The dogs were not mentioned.

Maggie Brister [00:09:42]:
It wasn’t a big deal. We just moved forward. And then about, I don’t know, halfway through the case, it was 2, 3 months in, I was getting emails after email from a, from the other attorney opposing counsel saying that we have to deal with these dogs. We have to deal with the dogs. They’re fighting over the dogs. And I was, I talked to my client like, what’s going on? It’s like he started yelling, she’s trying to take the dogs away from me. And I’m like, what the hell? Where did this come from?

Speaker B [00:10:07]:
What dogs?

Maggie Brister [00:10:08]:
There are these 2 dogs and it’s that for some reason it’s always a big dog and a little dog. So he had this like, there’s always 2. And then the big one was like kind of a Great Dane mix. And then so it’s a big dog and then some kind of like little Shih Tzu type thing. And so I was like, what’s going on? He said, well, she came to my house and she came here to get some clothes and now she’s demanding these dogs. She can’t even care for these dogs. And like try to calm down, don’t freak out over this. Let’s talk about it.

Maggie Brister [00:10:39]:
And so I’m talking about it. And it turned into this issue where he just wanted to tell me how she can’t do this, she can’t care for these dogs, and that it must be him. And, and mind you, he’s like 5’2, tiny, tiny little guy, 110 pounds, tell me how only he can manage a Great Dane. So I’m just like, okay. And I, and his wife’s about the same size. So I don’t know how that’s different. But the reality is it’s nothing to do with the dogs.

Speaker B [00:11:10]:
It’s—

Maggie Brister [00:11:10]:
he’s— so it was— it’s just emotional. He didn’t want to let go of— I think he didn’t want to let go of the reality that this is happening, that there’s a divorce happening.

Speaker B [00:11:19]:
Sure.

Maggie Brister [00:11:19]:
This is— and it’s hard. It’s a struggle for some of these clients. And so I tried to talk to him about it because the reality too is there has been allegations of domestic violence. I can’t have my client getting charged with something else. This is obviously a hotbed issue. And divorce is just a hothead place for just chaos and anger sometimes. So a lot of what I do is try to keep people to be calm. And I always remind them, so you hired an attorney so the two of you don’t fight.

Maggie Brister [00:11:47]:
Let me do that. Which usually results in me calling opposing counsel and we don’t fight at all. This case got complicated because he just didn’t wanna let anything go. We, at one point he’s sitting in my office and we’re going through an itemized list of everything he owns. And who was going to get what. And I’m not even kidding. In this list, there’s like the, the orange measuring cups, the blue measuring cups. There’s 4 different, different colored vases and who’s getting what.

Maggie Brister [00:12:12]:
I want the panini maker, like things like that. So I’m just going through, we divide hours, we divided everything up, but then we got to the dogs and he’s just, I will not, I will not. Uh, she can’t have them, but I will share them.

Speaker B [00:12:24]:
It’s like almost like one last way to just like have some type of I don’t know if it’s control or connection, maybe both.

Maggie Brister [00:12:33]:
Yeah, it’s something like that. It’s just this idea of like, he just couldn’t let go that this was, this was happening. And he didn’t want to— and I think there’s an issue too with you’ve been with somebody for so long, it’s a comfort to like— I think this is like the thing that reminds him of the marriage when it was good.

Speaker B [00:12:49]:
Yeah.

Maggie Brister [00:12:50]:
And so—

David Crum [00:12:51]:
Oh my God, this is breaking my heart. Why are we talking about this? I feel like it’s the last thing. I feel like It’s the last thing. Like, once the dogs— and it seems like this happens a lot— once the dogs are gone, it’s over.

Maggie Brister [00:13:04]:
That’s what this was.

David Crum [00:13:05]:
I don’t think this guy wanted it to be over.

Maggie Brister [00:13:06]:
That’s really what it was. And he wouldn’t let it go. And, you know, we helped him out, and I got him into AA. We got him into some treatment. And at the end of it, he was doing much better. He wasn’t angry. He calmed down quite a lot. At that point, he was telling me he didn’t care who had the measuring cups, which I was like, hey, that’s a bonus.

Maggie Brister [00:13:22]:
But we We ended up doing a timesharing plan with the dogs, and once he agreed to that, it was done. We were done with the case. This is wild.

Speaker B [00:13:33]:
So that was the last thing holding it up, was there was no parenting plan for the dogs.

Maggie Brister [00:13:38]:
We had to do that.

David Crum [00:13:40]:
It was a parenting plan for the dogs. Literally the same kind of thing that they would do for the kids, right? They did for the dogs. Maggie, curiosity has got the better of me here. I— the dog thing I do find fascinating, but what I think sounds even crazier is people divorcing after 50 years of marriage. Uh, when I was practicing, that wasn’t really that common, and it, it seems like something that has come up. Can you talk about that for just a minute? What are— how are things changed, and why are people doing this after such a long time? together? Like, what is it that these— do they share some common theme?

Maggie Brister [00:14:19]:
I would say that I’ve gotten these— I probably have 2 to 3 going at a time. Um, so they’re not super common, but they’re, they are happening frequently now. And I would say that it’s— they’re always a little on the sadder side, but they’ve been together for so long. But I think the big theme that I’m seeing, and maybe it was the pandemic, I don’t know, but It just seems like a— I’ll be honest, it’s mostly women saying, I just can’t do this anymore. It’s like, I can’t put up with this anymore.

Speaker B [00:14:51]:
What else is new?

Maggie Brister [00:14:53]:
Sorry, Dave. It’s a lot of that. It’s a lot of just, I cannot listen to this any further. I’ve woken up every day and all he does is yell at me. I will not wake up another day like this. And I don’t know, it’s a push of freedom and independence, I think, is a part of that that probably hasn’t been there before. And another one is there’s just more ability And I think there’s also like, women I find too are usually more willing to leave. They also have been usually self-sufficient too.

Speaker B [00:15:23]:
Well, I think women are like more, you know, accepting of change or like the willingness to change is something that I’ve noticed. So, I mean, I bet you talking about like this situation with this client that you had, and him saying, you know, there’s no way she can take care of the dogs. It’s probably also just knowing that she probably can, she can probably take care of herself. She can probably take care of the dogs. And even though they’ve been together for this long, she’s going to be just fine.

Maggie Brister [00:15:56]:
Yeah. I mean, I’m going to be honest. I have definitely sat down with some older gentlemen and had to teach them how to open up, like how to use their computer and their cell phone to like, this is how your banking app works. And they’re like, I haven’t done this before because my wife handled everything. This is how you look at your credit card statements. And it is a thing. There’s a lot of fear there. But I mean, I’ve also had the flip side of husbands coming in and saying the same thing where they’ve said that I would rather do this and die single than stay married to her one more day.

Speaker B [00:16:37]:
Oh my God.

Maggie Brister [00:16:38]:
Yeah.

David Crum [00:16:39]:
So Brooke was right, though. You know, this, this, the psychological flexibility, that’s what I saw. And that’s where I do think women outdistance men. More psychological flexibility. And I think women right now are thriving much more than men post-divorce. Right. And, and the dating apps and like the ability to connect and all that. I just see a lot of people able to start over.

David Crum [00:17:04]:
I mean, back in the day, man, like it was, you know, if you’re 60 years old, You’re going to have probably a lonely life. Now these people are just meeting somebody within a week, you know, that have the same kind of background. And there is something weird that happened, I think, after the pandemic where people just weren’t willing to, to do it anymore. You know what I mean?

Maggie Brister [00:17:26]:
I think the pandemic— I will say I think it changed a lot of things because so many people were locked inside together every day. Instead of like, I’m going to work. I will be back. Nope. That work is the next room over.

Speaker B [00:17:40]:
There’s no more space.

Maggie Brister [00:17:43]:
No. So if you were— so then you’re just sitting— like, I’ve heard about how the way he breathes. And I’m like, oh, we’re at that level where you hate the way he breathes at night. That’s where we are. Yeah. And so I think that kind of propels things because, again, they had to sit with each other for like, what, 18 months and couldn’t go anywhere, couldn’t really see anybody else.

David Crum [00:18:05]:
Sure.

Maggie Brister [00:18:06]:
And then women, and I will say women typically, I think there’s just that feeling of we have to keep going because that is what is expected. And I will say post-decree-wise, I would say if I’m going to have an issue after the divorce is done and over with, I have had issues more with my male clients than my Women clients. The women clients are usually the easiest because then they, they’re done. And when they’re done, they’re like, okay, yeah, this was great. Thank you for your, for that. We closed the case. It’s done. And I usually, there’s complaints.

Maggie Brister [00:18:37]:
It’s from, it’s from, well, she didn’t come and get this blanket in time. So should I just, should I just throw it away? And I’m like, no, stop it. Just give it to her. Why are you doing this? This one thing. But that, and that’s something. And that’s why I’m like, sometimes I don’t, especially like with pets, I prefer to have one side take the pets.

Speaker B [00:18:51]:
Mm-hmm.

Maggie Brister [00:18:53]:
I don’t want it to be this continued, like, going back to court over and over and over again over the leash or enough dog food or who bought the prescription dog food. Yes.

David Crum [00:19:03]:
Tell me about how judges look at these issues. Do these go to trial? Have you ever had to ask a judge to do this? And, and why do they feel the way that they feel with issues like this?

Maggie Brister [00:19:18]:
This is the hard part because clients especially with clients with animals, and I get this a lot with dogs, this is their child. I’ve had clients say, my baby, and then, you know, Pongo, my baby, you know, whatever the name is. Like, my baby Dorothy, like, my baby Haley. And it’s their like little Shih Tzu or it’s like, and that’s their child. But the law doesn’t see it that way. And that’s the hard part is that the court doesn’t really like to handle these issues. They really would rather that the parties figured this out because under the law in New Mexico, animals, all animals, whether it’s your personal pet or the horses or the cows outside, they’re all chattel. That’s property.

Maggie Brister [00:20:04]:
So the court deals— it has to deal with it the same way. They don’t have any choices. The statute says that this is what we do. So in a divorce case, we have to divide everything up. And also, judges don’t like to be the bad guy. So if you’re going to say, who gets Max the dog? And then they’re looking at you, the judge is looking at them going, you’re wanting me to make this decision? They don’t want to do that either. They already make hard enough decisions when it comes to where children should go. And so they don’t like really dealing with this.

Maggie Brister [00:20:41]:
And they typically will tell the attorneys to deal with it outside of court. I have heard sad stories where the court judges have told the parties if they have a deadline to figure out who’s taking the dog or the animal, and if they don’t, that the animal has to be placed for adoption for someone else. So I, yeah, because they’re just like, if you can’t figure it out, I’m not going to do it for you.

David Crum [00:21:02]:
So it sounds like someone who has an expectation that they’re going to go in and actually tell the judge their story about why They’re the better pet owner for the dog. That’s just probably not going to happen. Is that accurate?

Maggie Brister [00:21:14]:
No. And judges can— we, we’re so busy right now here. There’s just so many cases, not enough judges. And so if you’re going to put a file of motion and have a hearing on this, they have so many other hearings. You’re taking up time that the court— the way the judges see it is you’re taking up time that could be given to a case where we’re talking about a child that’s homeless or not being fed or being injured by a parent versus this dog that it appears that just 2 people can’t stop fighting for no reason. That’s the way they interpret it. Yeah.

Speaker B [00:21:49]:
I think something that we all tend to do at different points in our lives is like we get so wrapped up in our own life and our own problems. And because that’s what we’re dealing with, that’s the most important thing in our lives. But, you know, There’s so much else happening in the world that, yeah, I told— that totally makes sense that if a judge is, you know, they’re handling kids potentially being homeless or a kid at risk and you’re taking up their time because it’s like, I want the dog, you know, I get that.

David Crum [00:22:22]:
Yeah, it should depend on the, uh, on the pet as well, um, especially if it’s a bearded dragon. I think there should be a trial over something like that. What is— so I never even knew what a bearded dragon was until we had talked about it. What, um, what, what was this case about?

Maggie Brister [00:22:39]:
It’s, it’s funny to me that, I mean, I’m not a reptile person, but there are people that are very intensely reptile people. Um, and so I have this case where, um, it’s a divorce case, uh, and there, there was a child as well. So there is a human child. Um, just to be clear.

Speaker B [00:23:02]:
There’s a bearded dragon child.

Maggie Brister [00:23:03]:
And there’s a, there is a bearded dragon child. And so, but it’s just to highlight like how intense people get on this. Um, when husband was leaving the home, he, uh, he had videoed himself leaving and grabbing his belongings. And then he had done a part of this video. He spent several minutes talking about The Bearded Dragon. And I watched it because it was available, so I watched it. And at one point, there’s like a photo of this bearded dragon, which I also did not know that was— I’d always just assumed it was like those giant lizards that you would see in like South Africa or something, or like South America, you know, those giant Komodo dragons.

David Crum [00:23:48]:
Yeah.

Maggie Brister [00:23:49]:
Right. But no, they’re tiny. They’re little things. And there’s this picture on the wall of a photogenic bearded dragon. And he’s talking about it.

Speaker B [00:24:00]:
Photogenic bearded dragon.

Maggie Brister [00:24:01]:
Yeah, I mean, it looked great. It was a good picture. I’m not going to lie. And he’s talking about it. I can’t remember its name, but said that this one had died. And I didn’t realize what— because he’s talking about it more in the present tense. And he’s like, it died. And he’s like, man, I feel like if you had still been here, could have saved the marriage.

Speaker B [00:24:22]:
Interesting take.

Maggie Brister [00:24:23]:
That’s how I felt. And talked to— and just like, then had like— and then out of nowhere, a little tiny baggie comes up and it had the bearded dragon’s ashes in it. And he’s just like, we never got a proper urn for the ashes. And he just keeps talking to the ashes. And I’m just thinking, he has to leave the house. This is a divorce. There’s a human 4-year-old and we’re the ashes of the bearded dragon. And there was another one, a live one, but he did not take this one.

Maggie Brister [00:24:57]:
Uh, but we would get emails from opposed, his attorney asking, hey, our client’s wondering, is the bearded dragon okay? Is the bearded dragon okay? I’m like, this is weird.

Speaker B [00:25:09]:
What about is the 4-year-old okay?

Maggie Brister [00:25:10]:
Yeah. No, nope. No. Barely, barely any questions about that. So, and apparently also didn’t know this, um, lizards, reptiles like that, they just die. Apparently there’s nothing like, it’s nothing that you do. They just, sometimes they just die. And so we finally, this case, and this lasted a while, we had this, we were at mediation about 18 months after we started the case.

Maggie Brister [00:25:36]:
The bearded dragon comes up and I had asked my client, she was being kind of dodgy about it, but also like I was asking her about a bunch of other things in the case, so I never really followed up with her. Plus again, I was following up with the house, the finances, the child, the human child. So when she never answered questions about the beer driving, I was like, whatever, I don’t have time for this. We get to mediation and she sits there and she tells me, she’s like, I’ve been keeping a secret from you. I was like, oh God, they do this. It freaks me out every time a client tells me, so I have a secret. Don’t ever keep secrets from your attorney. That’s number one rule.

Maggie Brister [00:26:09]:
So I’m sitting there and she goes, So the bearded dragon, um, he died. I’m like, oh crap. And so I was like, when? It’s like, it was a couple months ago. I didn’t know how to tell you. I didn’t want to just ruin this case. I’m like, she’s like, I didn’t do anything wrong. And I was like, she’s like panicking. I was like, everything’s fine.

Maggie Brister [00:26:26]:
I need you to breathe.

Speaker B [00:26:27]:
So what did you tell him? Did you just say it’s doing great?

Maggie Brister [00:26:30]:
So the other attorney also knew that if this news was, came out, it would destroy everything we had done. This would’ve destroyed everything, the divorce, all of it. And we, like I said, this has been going on for 18 months. We were trying, like both sides were really trying to get this done because it’s, it was just going on too long. We need to get something finalized for the child. So we just kept it quiet, um, and didn’t say anything. And when I think his, I think what was happening is he was asking his attorney to ask me. And then we just wouldn’t bring it up.

Maggie Brister [00:27:04]:
And so in the paperwork, we were drafting everything. And by the time we got everything done, everything was moving so fast. And then I realized like, man, this is going quick. And he’s like, sign, sign, sign. It was like, because all of that stuff was missing about the bearded dragon. And so we, uh, did tell him after the divorce was done.

Speaker B [00:27:23]:
How’d he take it?

Maggie Brister [00:27:23]:
My understanding is not well.

Speaker B [00:27:25]:
I didn’t know you could even have a bearded dragon as a pet.

David Crum [00:27:28]:
I think they’re very loving creatures is what I understand. I just don’t know how you Maybe you should get one. Snuggle. I don’t know how you snuggle up with them. I feel like I have one on this podcast with me.

Maggie Brister [00:27:37]:
They like to— they like skin-to-skin contact, apparently. So if you carry them, they like to be on you. And if it’s cold outside, like, I have seen people like walk around. Now I just look for them everywhere because this is my life. And I’ve seen someone like once had it around its neck coming out of its shirt and just like stick his head, little head out. It was kind of cute, but it was also like, oh, this is weird.

David Crum [00:27:59]:
What I want to ask, what I’m thinking about, speaking of that, I remember cases where it seemed clear to me, you know, I think one of the things that people need to be really careful of is the other party using pets as leverage.

Speaker B [00:28:17]:
That’s a good point.

David Crum [00:28:18]:
What do you see? How do you see that play out? What should people be aware of? Some of the sneaky stuff you’ve seen?

Maggie Brister [00:28:24]:
What I would say is Sometimes it’s, there are times in a divorce case where you, it’s a compromise. Everyone’s exchanging things. You’re gonna take this, I’ll take this. And some things are like, I’ll take the golf cart, you take the TV. And sometimes you bargain with those things. But there are times where I’ve seen attorneys try to bargain animals and I, I won’t do it because I morally, I just think that’s wrong. And it’s, it’s just, that’s messed up. It is like, this is someone’s like, animal and they’re attached to it.

Maggie Brister [00:28:56]:
So if I have a client who wants to do that, I will tell them either we’re not doing that or I’m not— and if you do, I’m not the attorney for you. But I have seen, I’ve dealt with this. I had a case once where they were with— my client had left the house and she had taken her belongings, but he refused to let her take her service animal.

David Crum [00:29:18]:
Oh, wow.

Maggie Brister [00:29:19]:
And he was claiming that, um, he was more attached to the dog than she was. And I was like, it’s registered to her. Like she has the certificate for this. And this is—

Speaker B [00:29:29]:
No service animal.

Maggie Brister [00:29:30]:
Yes. And it was, we went through and she was struggling with this immensely throughout the divorce. And at mediation, she still didn’t have the animal. And they tried to play that game of, uh, what are you gonna give me for this dog? Which the mediator immediately said, this, that’s not happening. Um, just give her the dog. And so then he finally relinquished the dog to her. Um, but he withheld that dog for 6 months, wouldn’t let her see the dog, nothing.

Speaker B [00:29:59]:
Oh my God.

Maggie Brister [00:30:00]:
Yeah. And so it does happen. Um, it doesn’t, I will say people do when dogs or animal case, like in cases blow up, like the whole everything behind that, it’s always emotional. It’s always an emotional response and people are mad. They want to be vindictive. And one, it just hurts people. So if that’s what your goal is, like, that’s what it’s going to do. But on the flip side of this, it’s going to usually delay things.

Maggie Brister [00:30:29]:
Um, it usually upsets all the attorneys and judges. It doesn’t do what you think it’s doing. If your goal is to ruin something for them, one, that shouldn’t be your goal. But if that is, it typically backfires on you because then Everyone kind of has a bad taste in their mouth about that, like that mediation with the service dog.

Speaker B [00:30:49]:
Yeah.

Maggie Brister [00:30:49]:
The attorney that was a mediator was pissed. She was pissed at the other attorney, and that’s a big deal. And so I would tell people, like, you don’t— it doesn’t do what you think it does. If you’re wanting to be vindictive, that’s not— divorces can get to that point, but really That shouldn’t be your goal of a divorce. It’s just, we’re not compatible. Let’s divide our stuff up and go live a happier life somewhere else.

David Crum [00:31:16]:
You know what we’re overlooking in all this, Brooke? Do you know what we’re overlooking?

Speaker B [00:31:20]:
I don’t know.

David Crum [00:31:21]:
The emotions of the dogs. Yeah, they have emotions too. I just saw an article about this, that they have their emotions.

Speaker B [00:31:28]:
They’re highly emotional creatures, I think. What if we put them in a room and let them decide, see where they go first? Does that work?

David Crum [00:31:36]:
Well, no, but I think Maggie, um, don’t you guys kind of like take this into consideration when— about like when you’re, when you’re, um, constructing these resolutions?

Speaker B [00:31:48]:
But how do you know? Because both parties are gonna say, no, it likes me more.

Maggie Brister [00:31:53]:
Yeah, that we get that. Um, and ultimately, if it’s like a— not like a domestic violence situation where they can be around each other, then if it— worst case scenario, I will I will do a timesharing schedule. Um, I will draft out what days and where the dogs go if we have to. Because yes, I’ve heard that this dog, when it— I, I’ve never seen this dog happier when it’s with me. I get that a lot. Um, I know the exact food this dog loves, and whenever we’re sitting on the couch, she just curls up in my lap, right?

David Crum [00:32:26]:
But you actually do some things, right? You don’t— you try to not split the dogs. Yeah, you were Are there some things that you actually do?

Maggie Brister [00:32:33]:
I don’t think you can just flip the dogs.

David Crum [00:32:35]:
No, no, no. There’s almost always 2 dogs that had issues, right?

Maggie Brister [00:32:40]:
Usually, yes.

David Crum [00:32:40]:
And yeah.

Maggie Brister [00:32:40]:
So if there’s one, and that, that one I will, I will try my best to, to do as well. Because some people will say like, right, 2 dogs, one takes each. That’s a little harder than, than you would think because there are dogs that are bonded and it will be devastating for the dogs. And like, I’ve had conversations with clients who are like, well, I really love my dog because they’ll have like one Each party, I’ve had it where each party comes in with their own dog. And then I’ve had a client tell me, yeah, this was my dog. I only had her for like a year before we met. And they’ve been married for like 5 or 6 years. And then they’re like, well, I want to do this.

Maggie Brister [00:33:18]:
I’m like, if you separate these dogs, you know it’s going to be devastating for these dogs if they’re bonded as you’re telling me. And at that point, usually if the emotion, the anger part of the emotions calm down, that’s when they’re like, yeah, you know what? If she’s insisting on keeping those dogs, I’ll give them up. Because they, at that point, it’s like, what’s more important? The fight or like your dog’s like happiness? And so if you’re going to really divide them, it’s just going to cause it. Like I’ve told people, like, do you really want to split these dogs up and then be miserable? And they’re like, no, they can have the dog. And then they let it go.

David Crum [00:33:55]:
Legal question for you. All right, you’re in a community property state, right? So when you, when you bring property in, that’s your separate property, stays your separate property. Typically when you divorce, you take that with you. If someone brings a dog in, does that consider separate property as— or does the dog transmute into community property because they both use the dog and so forth? I mean— Have you ever had to address that in court?

Maggie Brister [00:34:23]:
I’ve not gone that far yet, but under the rules, technically, it belongs to the party that brought it into the marriage because it is chattel. This is property that was bought before and brought in. But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that and then been told, yeah, even though it’s her dog, that dog just loves me so much more.

David Crum [00:34:46]:
I would argue transmutation. I would argue transmutation.

Maggie Brister [00:34:49]:
Right.

Speaker B [00:34:49]:
Yeah.

David Crum [00:34:50]:
Commingling. We commingled the dog and now it’s become community property. And therefore I would want a ruling on that. And I’m sure a judge would be super happy to do that. Any difference that you’re seeing between cats and dogs? I don’t hear a lot of talk about cats in these stories.

Speaker B [00:35:08]:
Nobody wants the cats.

David Crum [00:35:09]:
What’s the problem?

Maggie Brister [00:35:12]:
Oh, it’s— I’ve never had a case where the cats were a problem.

David Crum [00:35:16]:
Oh my God.

Maggie Brister [00:35:17]:
Never. I’ve had dogs, lizards, bearded dragons, cattle, horses. You know, some of those rural districts here, you’ll see like donkeys, you’ll see chickens, all kinds of stuff. Cats are the easiest. Never had a problem. Immediately, every time I ask, oh, any animals? And they go, yeah, one cat. She can have it without question. She can have it.

Maggie Brister [00:35:41]:
I’m like, really? I’m like, oh yeah, take the cat. Like, oh, she— the cat likes her more anyways. Cat hates me. I think it’s because dogs are like, they’re like, they love on everyone.

Speaker B [00:35:52]:
They’re affectionate.

Maggie Brister [00:35:52]:
And cats— yeah, and cats pick— they pick a favorite.

Speaker B [00:35:56]:
Yeah. Cats have favorites.

Maggie Brister [00:35:58]:
Yeah, you know. Yes. And there’s, you know, and if the cat likes you, the cat will— the cat will want you to— want you around. If the cat hates you, they let you know. They’ll attack you. They’ll do crazy stuff. I’ve had people tell me like, her cat went after me once. I don’t want this cat.

Maggie Brister [00:36:14]:
I don’t want anything to do with this cat. I’m like, okay.

David Crum [00:36:17]:
Oh my goodness.

Maggie Brister [00:36:19]:
So I, I’ve always thought like, if you, if you talk, if like we had to really worry about this cat issue, if we took like the both parties into a courtroom and I put the cat on the middle of the table, that cat will tell you exactly where they want to be. Without hesitation, they will go, oh, I’m going over here. And they’ll pick that parent quickly versus a dog, which I think would be all over the place because dogs love people. Cats— what is the saying? The dog is man’s best friend, but cats think of themselves as like your god. Like you work— Yeah, you’re the cat’s god. You feed the dog. Yeah, you feed the dog, so you are god because you fed them. But you fed the cat, the cat thinks, I’m god because you fed me.

Maggie Brister [00:37:01]:
Yes.

David Crum [00:37:02]:
Yeah, I’ve never had a case. I’ve never had a case.

Speaker B [00:37:05]:
You’re there.

David Crum [00:37:06]:
People fought over cats. That’s true in my experience, too. The other thing I wanted to mention for people listening, I think that this is ever going to be an issue for them. We talk a lot sometimes about how cases get decided behind the scenes. And what I mean by that is it’s my opinion that a judge starts getting an idea about your case and who you are the minute you start filing pleadings. And if you’re filing pleadings about your pets, and I’m not minimizing this at all, I know people love their pets. You start doing stuff like that, and it’s not just going to impact who gets the dog ultimately. That judge is going to start thinking this person’s a problem, and they’re going to start deciding, and you’re going to see issues like your alimony and your child support going in directions you know, you don’t want to go.

Speaker B [00:38:00]:
That makes sense.

Maggie Brister [00:38:00]:
Totally.

David Crum [00:38:01]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maggie Brister [00:38:03]:
I, I totally agree. Again, like I said before, you’ve got all these judges that have really complicated issues that they’re dealing with. These—

Speaker B [00:38:09]:
the—

Maggie Brister [00:38:10]:
they’re here to kind of help decide, you know, really hard— mostly custody stuff is usually what they see, or like really complicated divorces that have lots of businesses, things like that, where it’s like really hard and you need a lot of like experts or things. But they want this to be as civil as possible. Nobody wants to go into court and scream and shout. Judges don’t like that. So if you are the— if you are filing a motion about the return of the leash to the third-party delivery person and that it wasn’t done correctly, the court’s not gonna— it looks like you’re fighting for no reason. It looks like you’re just trying to drag this out.

Speaker B [00:38:48]:
Mm-hmm.

Maggie Brister [00:38:49]:
And the, if they get the opportunity to make rulings, I would be worried if they’re making decisions regarding attorney’s fees. I would be worried. And that’s something I have told clients. If this judge has to make a decision about custody later on with your children and you are going after them on every little issue with the pet, do you think you, the judge thinks you’re gonna be a good co-parent? Do you think this judge is gonna give you the chance to like, well, and, or if they, we go into court.

David Crum [00:39:17]:
Yeah.

Maggie Brister [00:39:17]:
And the judge, you know, the other side saying you’re being difficult with the children and you’re swearing up and down, I’ve never been difficult with the children. And then the court goes, well, there’s about 5 motions here about the dogs. I can only imagine how you are at home. That could risk you legal custody.

David Crum [00:39:32]:
Yeah. This is one of those things where TV just makes life so difficult for attorneys, right? Because they make it seem like we fight over everything. A good attorney is a bulldog attorney and fighter, and you get to go in and tell your story, and your judge is going to listen to all this and love to hear all this stuff. And the truth is, is that the judges have an expectation of the attorneys that they’re going to resolve stuff like this. They are going to be the problem solvers, and they get pissed off. Like, Maggie, how many times have you had a judge go, Mr. Crump, why don’t you go figure this out? Like, why haven’t you figured this out? I don’t want to hear this. And because that’s how the system runs, like 98% or 99% of cases end in a settlement, a negotiated settlement.

David Crum [00:40:21]:
And so, you know, that’s the, that’s the one thing I think that, that’s so disappointing and why, like, we’re not going to fight over your dog. Like, the judge is just not going to listen to this.

Maggie Brister [00:40:31]:
It also depends on, like, again, be careful who you hire. Like, that’s a good— if I were to tell somebody who’s looking for, like, an attorney, be careful who you hire because some attorneys, they don’t care about their reputation. They’ll go in there and file anything and they’ll fight over every little thing because they want to. And that’s attorney’s fees, but they have that reputation. So if we’re going to court and it’s a he said, she said, and I don’t do that. So if I go to court against an attorney that does, there’s a better chance that I will get what I want over what the other attorney gets. And I have had that happen. I’ve had judges say, no, I don’t believe you.

Maggie Brister [00:41:09]:
And then they ask me what happened and I tell them and they go, yeah, I believe that. And that’s because that can affect your reputation. And unfortunately, it will stick to you. Judges can rule negatively against somebody because of your attorney, even if your attorney— they will blame you even though your attorney is the issue.

Speaker B [00:41:29]:
Guilty by association.

Maggie Brister [00:41:30]:
Yes.

David Crum [00:41:31]:
That’s a really good point. And when you were talking earlier about using pets as leverage, I mean, certainly people do that and attorneys do it. And there’s nothing unethical about You know, kind of signaling that something is important during negotiations as a negotiating tool or ploy when you’re really not interested in that much and you’re going to get concessions because of it. I would be very, very wary of anyone doing that with a pet. Right. It’s just going to piss people off. And I’ve seen people try to do it with kids.

Maggie Brister [00:42:04]:
Oh, yeah.

David Crum [00:42:05]:
I’ll give you another overnight if you give me more money. like, what? Okay, that’s, that’s a problem.

Speaker B [00:42:10]:
Oh yeah, that’s pretty messed up.

Maggie Brister [00:42:12]:
You know how many times I’ve had, I’ve had guys say, um, what, what can you get me so I never have to pay child support? Yeah. And they’re like, okay, well, they say crazy, no custody, you don’t get any visits.

Speaker B [00:42:24]:
But maybe you should have thought about that before you decided to have a kid.

Maggie Brister [00:42:27]:
It happens a lot.

David Crum [00:42:27]:
That’s a whole nother episode.

Maggie Brister [00:42:28]:
Yeah, it happens a lot. But it’s, it’s one of those things. And I, like I said, when it comes to these pets, I try to work it out without having a fight in court, because again, this is not what your judge wants to hear. It’s best to try to work this out. There’s nothing wrong with working things out in mediation or behind closed doors.

David Crum [00:42:46]:
You will—

Maggie Brister [00:42:47]:
it is better to have control over your life than let a stranger who will hear you for 30 minutes make all the decisions about what happens to you.

David Crum [00:42:56]:
Yeah, amen to that. Um, so let’s end— we always try to end on a positive note. Because I am very positive. And, uh, so do you have any— do you have any selfless pet stories where, you know what I mean, they— the per— the person just was like, yeah, I love the dog, but—

Maggie Brister [00:43:16]:
Uh, I would have to say the, the one I, I, and I’ve told people this before too, I’ve been divorced and I had my dog for years before I was married, and then we got a dog while we were married and they were bonded and And just so you know, it is, yes, it is a big dog and a little dog. Always.

Speaker B [00:43:35]:
Always.

Maggie Brister [00:43:35]:
It’s always that.

Speaker B [00:43:36]:
Always.

Maggie Brister [00:43:37]:
A Red Heeler and a Chihuahua. And they’re bonded. And I’m just— when the divorce was coming, I’m like, I just want— they’re bonded. I can’t separate them. I’m like, God, this is going to kill me. And I’m like, if I have to, I will do anything to keep the dogs together. And when we sat down, I thought for sure it was going to be a big fight over that. And turns out, My ex said, I hate this dog and I don’t want to deal with this dog anymore.

Maggie Brister [00:44:03]:
I’m like, I’ll take him. And she’s like, well, I want this, this, this. Like, done, take it. So when we divorced, I packed up my car with my dresser, my clothes, some couple other personal items, my 2 dogs, and drove off. And I was— I couldn’t be happier. I was so happy. And the 2 of them were together. And I was like, here, take them.

Maggie Brister [00:44:22]:
Take— I gave her the bank accounts. I gave her the bed. I gave her all the furniture. I was like, you take it. I will be fine.

Speaker B [00:44:28]:
Those were your babies.

Maggie Brister [00:44:28]:
Yes. I was never going to leave.

David Crum [00:44:31]:
She was probably leveraging you. She didn’t want the dogs.

Speaker B [00:44:35]:
No.

David Crum [00:44:36]:
Yeah, that’s a good attitude. And I’ve had a couple of clients who clearly were attached to the dog. I mean, seriously, legitimately, and just said, if it makes her happy and she needs it, then I’ll let it go. And that’s always a consideration. That’s hard. But, um, you know, the, the converse of that is, is even harder. So anyway, well guys, it has been fantastic talking to you, Maggie. Um, if anybody’s watching and you have a pet dispute or a bearded dragon, just call Maggie.

David Crum [00:45:10]:
Bearded dragons especially seem to be her subspecialty. Uh, really getting down to the niches there, Maggie. Um, but thank you so much for coming Thanks for coming, everybody. Um, keep your eyes out for our next episode, which is always rivetingly entertaining. And, uh, thanks again, and we’ll see everybody soon. Thank you.

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