Paternity Disputes in Divorce: What Happens When the Husband Isn’t the Father with Attorney Meagan Spomer

Episode Notes

Transcript

Meagan Spomer:

The mother who the state doesn’t represent the mother. So I’m not really talking to mom. I don’t have any interest in talking to mom. Mom goes to the public defender and says, “If he’ll take a bath with me, I’ll wave 100% of what he owes.” Oh

David Crum:

My God, I remember this.

Brooke Mathieu:

A bath? A bath. If he’ll take a bath with her?

Meagan Spomer:

If you will take a bath with me, I’ll wave it all. $150,000 gone. What did you say to him? And she goes, “I told him to take the bath.”

David Crum:

Welcome to the show everybody. We have a great topic for you today. Actually, what are we talking about today, Brooke?

Brooke Mathieu:

Have you ever heard of baby mama drama?

David Crum:

I have heard of baby mama drama.

Brooke Mathieu:

Well, today we’re going to talk about big papa drama.

David Crum:

Pig papa drama. What do you mean by that?

Brooke Mathieu:

Talking about some cases where we don’t know who’s the dad and who isn’t and what happens next.

David Crum:

Oh my God. Okay. This is one of my favorite topics. Worst cases, by the way, to represent, but it’s a very interesting topic. So what you’re describing is a situation where, and I think we have two types of situations, one where people are just dating and they’re not married and they have a baby together. And lo and behold, the father is not the father. Or they’re married and this is where the real drama comes in. The wife gets pregnant and lo and behold, the husband is actually not even the father. Have you seen a case like this before? Do you know any people who’ve gone through this?

Brooke Mathieu:

I have not had my own personal experience with this. Thank God. But I did have some people that I went to high school with that kind of had something very similar happen, a very similar situation. They were both teen parents, got pregnant at a very young age. And then seven years down the line, the kid is turning seven. The co-parents have just not been getting along, been heated for several years. It got bad pretty quickly, but by the seventh year, mom had decided that she’d had enough. She never wanted to see this guy ever again and tells him one day, “Well, you’re not even the dad.” So dad ends up getting a paternity test. Yeah. And it turns out he isn’t the dad. So yeah, that was pretty crazy for the town. I’ll say that.

David Crum:

Well, it’s something that happens a lot. And the real tragedy, before we get into that particular situation, when people have a baby together and they’re not married, it’s called a paternity case. It’s always called a paternity case, whether they know who the father is or not. And the tragedy sometimes of these cases are that, well, I mean, let me put this back to you. I’m sure that you’ve had relationships in the past where you’ve had a boyfriend and you guys get along and you’ve been dating sometimes for quite a while, but you know at some point this is going to end, right? Yeah. Have you had those relationships? Okay. We’ve all had these, but now put yourself in that situation and you have a baby. Yeah. I

Brooke Mathieu:

Feel

David Crum:

Like that would just

Brooke Mathieu:

Make things miserable.

David Crum:

Miserable. I mean, I hate to say this because it’s not always like this, but people like this, they have no intention of staying together, let alone raising a child. So then I come into that or the attorney comes into it, and now we’re trying to navigate two people that have no idea that they don’t have any idea of how to do this together. So what I see a lot when kids are born is that mom’s really very uncomfortable letting the child go with the father. They don’t know how to communicate. Sometimes the father doesn’t want any contact. Sometimes the father wants a ton of contact. Sometimes the father uses the baby to try to get back into the relationship with the mom. And it’s just super difficult to watch and to be involved in. So that’s not really what we’re talking about today. Today we are talking about those situations where people are together.

They’re either married or unmarried. They have a baby and then the person turns out not to be the father. Now you’re going to hear when our guest comes on, we have a great guest today who are going to answer all the questions that people have about this, that these cases are treated very differently. When you’re unmarried, there’s no presumption that you’re the father or not. So when you go to the hospital, they’re going to ask you right there, right there on the day that the baby’s coming out to sign this document saying you’re the father. Do you think you should sign that? Is that something you think someone should sign?

Brooke Mathieu:

Based on some of the conversation we’ve had, I feel like that’s something that you wouldn’t sign unless you absolutely knew. I think from a woman’s perspective, if I was unsure, I would be very hesitant for my own self to have them sign anything if I didn’t know. Because I’m assuming that if they sign that, they have fifty fifty rights to the kid, right?

David Crum:

Oh, you’re saying from the woman’s perspective.

Brooke Mathieu:

Don’t let

David Crum:

Them sign

Brooke Mathieu:

It if you don’t know.

David Crum:

I’ve never thought of it that way. I have always though of it from the man’s perspective. What am I getting myself into? I could tell you would be super awkward.

Brooke Mathieu:

I think it’s

David Crum:

The same thing

Brooke Mathieu:

From the women’s perspective. What am I getting myself into? Who am I going to

David Crum:

Be

Brooke Mathieu:

Making decisions with for the next 18 years? That’s where my mind goes.

David Crum:

That’s true. Well, luckily we’re going to have an answer for that. Our guest is going to talk in detail about whether you should sign this and what are the circumstances and what does it mean if you do it? On the other hand, if you are married, the law assumes that you’re the father, even when you’re not. And so that’s a whole nother series of things that have to happen. And sometimes it’s too late to do anything about it, depending on when you find out and what those circumstances are. But here’s a question for you. And now I hate to get all games of thrones on you, and I hate using this word, but it is a legal term. I think it’s a legal term. But we always say that the law hates a bastard. The law just doesn’t like it when kids – That’s

Brooke Mathieu:

Pretty rude.

David Crum:

Well, I’m sorry. That’s not me. That’s the law. They don’t like it when a child doesn’t have a parent. And this really shocks me because what normally I think, right? What normally happens when a woman does something, and we could say this is what the bad woman did. She had sex with someone else. She’s the one that usually gets punished, right? No, this father, this guy doesn’t have to take care of the child. He doesn’t have to take care of the child. But that’s what you’re going to see is not always the case here. And under some circumstances that you’re going to hear about, a person could actually get, I shouldn’t say stuck, but could end up supporting a child that’s not even his.

Brooke Mathieu:

Even if

David Crum:

The mom didn’t

Brooke Mathieu:

Want that?

David Crum:

Even if the mom didn’t want it, does that bother you?

Brooke Mathieu:

If the mom doesn’t want it, then yes, it bothers me. If she does want it, then go get it. Go get your bad girl. But I don’t know. I would hope that. I don’t think parents would make a decision like that lightly. So if they’re both in agreement, it’s better off just letting the mom take care of her kid, then I think the law should just let it be.

David Crum:

Now these are the kind of questions I love to pose to our listeners. So if you’re listening to this, I want to hear this. What do you think about this? Right in the comments, what do you think? Is it right? Should someone support a child that’s not there? Should parents be able to terminate their rights to the child if both parties are in agreement? These are kind of hard questions to answer. And I’m always curious to see what happens when people come in with a certain idea. They listen to the guest and then we see whether their opinions change or not based on some of the reasoning behind it.

Brooke Mathieu:

I guess we’ll see

David Crum:

What Meagan

Brooke Mathieu:

Has to say. I don’t know if I see my opinion changing, David.

David Crum:

Well, again, I think there are going to be reasons on both sides as there normally are. So a couple things that I wanted to say. I used to hate doing these types of cases. You know why? Because I would get hired by a man who would come in and they’d had a baby and then he would tell me, so he’d have to open a paternity case and the first thing that I had to do was ask the other party for a paternity test. He doesn’t think he’s the father.

Brooke Mathieu:

What’s the reasoning behind this? Them not thinking they’re the dad.

David Crum:

Well, some of them – Where does that though process come from? Sometimes they’re not the dad because they’re afraid there’s some evidence that the woman has been cheating or they’re seeing their old boyfriend and they just don’t know. But the problem with this, of course, is now I have to say, Brooke, I don’t believe a word you say. I think you cheated on me. I want to test. I want to go through this whole process. And then when it turns out I am the father, now I’d like you to be nice to me. And I want you to see the kid. And then we want to have this beautiful – Of course that’s what they’re thinking. Co-co-parenting relationship. All right. So the dudes out there, if you’ve had a baby and you get visitation with the child, you can just get your own little DNA. You can buy one of these paternity tests at Walgreens for Christ’s sake and give a little swab and send it in.

And if you’re the father, then you never have to talk about it again. But my God, it’s like World War III when we start these things. Okay. There is a lot that I could talk about and a lot I have to say about this, but I am not the expert here. And so this would be a wonderful time to welcome our guests. So let’s welcome Meagan Spomer.

Okay. It is my great pleasure to welcome to the show, Attorney Meagan Spomer. Meagan is not only a phenomenal attorney, but she’s one of my favorite attorneys and part of the US Legal Group’s family. She’s out in Omaha, Nebraska at Nebraska Legal Group. Now, Meagan is actually one of the managing partners out there. She’s been in practice for 14 years. My God, this could be an entire podcast just going through her credentials. She is – Please

Meagan Spomer:

Don’t.

David Crum:

I have to. 14 years in divorce and family law. She graduated from UNL College of Law. Now she is a fellow in the American Academy of Matrimonial Law. Guys, that’s a big deal. Certified mediator, parenting coordinator. She is also a collaborative divorce attorney. And relevant to this conversation way back in the day, Meagan worked in child support enforcement and she has seen the craziest of the crazy. So it is my pleasure to welcome you today, Meagan. Thank you so much for coming by.

Meagan Spomer:

Thanks for having me.

David Crum:

Yeah. So the topic today, I think Brooke coined this earlier and it is papa baby drama.

Brooke Mathieu:

Big papa drama.

David Crum:

Big papa drama. This is, of course, cases in which parties or the couples have a baby. And lo and behold, the father is not the father. So my first question to you, Meagan, why do women in the Midwest cheat so much, do you think?

Meagan Spomer:

When I was in high school, our county had the highest rate of sexually transmitted diseases of any county per capita in the entire country. I think there’s just not enough to do around here.

David Crum:

I think that’s it. There’s just nothing to do there other than to have affairs and drink beer and watch Nebraska football. But getting into this topic, it’s a touchy one. Why don’t we start? Let’s start by talking about the difference in these cases between. What are we talking about here? The difference between when parties are married and when they’re not married. Can you kind of start us off by talking about that distinction?

Meagan Spomer:

Yes. So when parties are married, there’s a legal presumption or assumption that attaches that the husband is automatically the biological father of the child. That’s a difficult thing to challenge, even if it turns out later to not be true. However, if you’re not married, there is no presumption that attaches. And instead, there’s a couple of options, one of which would be to sign what’s called an acknowledgement of paternity for that child at the hospital.

David Crum:

So the dudes that are signing the thing at the hospital, they don’t ask you to do that when you’re married and you have a baby?

Meagan Spomer:

Correct.

David Crum:

Doesn’t matter how much your wife’s running around.

Meagan Spomer:

That’s exactly correct.

David Crum:

They do not care.

Meagan Spomer:

Nope.

David Crum:

All right. So what is the process? Let’s say that you’re married. Okay. What is the process? You’re having this baby and for whatever reason, you got some suspicions. It looks exactly like your best friend. What do people do in that situation?

Meagan Spomer:

First, I’d reconsider your friendship. And then I would start with something simple, like an over-the-counter paternity test. It’s going to be incredibly difficult to get a court to order a paternity test in the context of a marriage. And so if you have those suspicions before you share that with anyone, go do a cheek swab. They’re easy. They’re over the counter. They’re not very expensive. You swab your cheek, you swab the child’s cheek, you run it through a little test and it’ll give you an idea. They’re fairly accurate. So if it comes back that you’re the father, great, put it to bed. You never have to talk about it again. If it comes back, you’re not the father, then I think it’s time to have a conversation with your spouse.

David Crum:

So you have the conversation and let’s say they have the conversation and it’s denied. Then what happens? Is this always done in the context of a divorce? You don’t just start some action, right? If you think that. Or do you? I mean, what would happen if you just though, “Hey, this isn’t my kid.” Do you have to start a divorce or do you do something else?

Meagan Spomer:

Well, you’re legally that child’s parent until a court finds that you’re not. So if you want out of that obligation, then yes, you’d have to file either a complaint for dissolution of marriage, a complaint for separation. I don’t know that a court would necessarily entertain a complaint to establish paternity because paternity is already legally established. So you’d have to decide at that time, am I staying in this marriage? If so, this is my child. Whether or not it’s biologically mine or not, I’m legally the parent. Or am I going to end this relationship? In which case, within the context of the divorce, you can seek to have the court set aside that presumption of paternity, but that’s not a slam dunk.

David Crum:

Okay. So let’s talk about that because part of what we do here is entertain, of course, but part of what we do is try to educate people and people are tuning in because they have these particular issues. So what are we looking at here? Can you take us through a case where we’re filing for divorce and we got a challenge to paternity of one of the kids? What do you see happening? And talk to us too about the reality of this. What really happens in the day-to-day practice of these cases?

Meagan Spomer:

Yeah. So I mean, I could take you through the procedure, but one, in the context of a marriage, this really doesn’t happen too often. What might happen is they’ll figure it out after the divorce is over, in which case there are some procedural things. But really it’s pretty simple procedurally, you file a motion to set aside the presumption of paternity and you have to come to the court with evidence. And then it’s a two step process. First, you have to establish that you aren’t in fact the biological parent, but that’s not enough. The court then wants to know, is it in this kid’s best interest to set aside the finding of paternity? And a lot of times in the context of a marriage, especially if there’s other kids, especially if the kid is beyond a year or two old, the court’s not going to find it’s in their best interest to take you out of the picture because of the bond oftentimes that’s been established.

Or maybe bio dad, no one knows who it is. Who knows how many affairs there have been, right? Or maybe bio dad is kind of a piece of shit and isn’t going to be the best parent for this child. And so the court has to weigh not only the fact of who the biological parent is, but the best interest of the child in terms of who’s a better parent.

Brooke Mathieu:

So Meagan, I was sharing this story with David before you hopped on about a couple that I knew in high school. They got pregnant at 16 and it came out seven years later when baby daddy was getting engaged to someone else. Baby mama was over it, didn’t want anything to do with him anymore. And basically was like, you’re not even the dad. So will he always be the dad? Because I know you said after two years, you kind of keep that role.

Meagan Spomer:

So tell me the first part of that story. Were they married at the time that it

Brooke Mathieu:

Came out? They were never married, just 16 and pregnant.

Meagan Spomer:

16 and pregnant. And did he sign the birth certificate at the hospital?

David Crum:

Yep.

Meagan Spomer:

Okay. So we call that a poor man’s adoption. And when you are unmarried and you sign the paternity of acknowledgement, you’re saying, I don’t care that I might not be the dad. I’m forgoing a paternity test and I’m taking responsibility for this child. At least in Nebraska, there’s a standard of fraud or material mistake of fact, which isn’t oopsie. Oopsie. I guess I’m not dad. And you have to show that the other person went out of their way to hide it from you, that you weren’t potentially the parent. And so especially at seven years old, he’s likely on the hook.

David Crum:

So if I’m getting this, if I’m understanding this correctly, this poor sap, right? Not just this guy, but anybody. They’re married and they’re raising this kid and it’s proven that it’s not their kid. And they prove it. And the court is still going to say, “Hey pal, you’re out of luck and you’re going to raise this kid.” Right?

Meagan Spomer:

A lot of times, yeah. And there’s a public policy behind that. And I hate this word. It’s not my word. It’s in the law. The court goes out of their way not to bastardize a child. No,

David Crum:

I love that word.

Meagan Spomer:

Meaning they don’t want to eliminate a parent who’s capable of providing either financially or otherwise for the child. And so even if

Brooke Mathieu:

That was the mom’s goal by sharing this.

Meagan Spomer:

The goal was to bastardize

Brooke Mathieu:

The child. I don’t think the goal was to bastardize the child. I think the goal is a little bit mom more self-serving and to eliminate the other parent. Hurt the father, eliminate him, remove him from both their lives.

Meagan Spomer:

Yeah. She should have thought about that before she had this child and told the world it was his because it’s not just about her. There’s now a child in this picture that has a bond with another parent. And the court’s really going to take a hard look at whether it’s in this kid’s best interest to sever that tie.

David Crum:

I do want to switch gears just on the type of case, because I think this is where the public policy really comes to bear. And this is the case where you’re not married. Whether it’s either. It might be as little as a one night stand. It might be the couple has been together for a long time, but it’s a different process. This is called something different when you’re not married. How do those cases play out?

Meagan Spomer:

I mean, obviously in the context of the divorce, you can do this, but if you’re not married, then what you would file isn’t obviously a dissolution of marriage, but it would be a complaint to establish paternity. If there is already an acknowledgement, then the court’s going to say, “Well, paternity’s already established. So you’ve got to show me a good reason why I should set that aside and order genetic testing.”

David Crum:

That’s when the guy signs the document.

Meagan Spomer:

Yep.

David Crum:

What is your advice to people on that? What do you say to guys who are going to go to the hospital and they put this paper right in front of their face to sign? Should they sign?

Meagan Spomer:

I want everyone to listen really carefully. Do not sign it. If you’re not married, do not sign an acknowledgement of paternity. The courts will uphold them more than they will set them aside, even with proof of you not being the father. So unless there is bio dad anxiously in the wings waiting to jump in and take responsibility, you’re stuck.

David Crum:

Wow. So

Meagan Spomer:

Even if it’s going to be an awkward conversation at the hospital –

David Crum:

I can’t imagine that would be awkward.

Meagan Spomer:

Yeah.

David Crum:

Well, I’m not

Meagan Spomer:

Here to give relationship advice. You asked me what my legal advice was, and that is do not sign the acknowledgement.

David Crum:

This is a bombshell, guys. So is everybody listening

Brooke Mathieu:

To me. The second they sign the birth certificate, you’re on the hook.

Meagan Spomer:

You’re on the hook. And it’s not easy to get off the hook.

David Crum:

Yeah. So, okay, you have that situation. A lot of guys aren’t even thinking about this. They’re there. They sign the paternity. That’s like an acknowledgement that you’re the dad, right? How do people get out of that? What do you got to show to get out of that?

Meagan Spomer:

It’s fraud or material mistake of fact. And that’s a really high burden. It can’t just be I was in the moment and the emotions were so high and I was looking at this child and I though it was mine. And of course I want to be a parent, but now that it’s not mine, I’ve decided I shouldn’t have signed the acknowledgement. That’s not going to be enough. You’re going to have to show that there were active efforts to prevent you from knowing the truth because you do have the option of not signing the acknowledgement and getting a paternity test.

David Crum:

Would this be like she put a pinhole on the condom or something? I can’t think of what you just said. I can’t think of an actual example where that would work. Have you had cases where somebody successfully got out of this paternity acknowledgement and it not just because you’re a phenomenal attorney?

Meagan Spomer:

I’ve seen two instances. The first is when the child is still really young, like under two years old. And it’s just very clear that from whatever the evidence might be, whether it be a paternity test that has a good chain of custody and another parent ready to step in. In those instances, a court will sometimes consider setting it aside. But it’s that last piece that’s really crucial. If you’re unmarried and there’s no other parent, no other father known and ready to take responsibility, it’s going to be much, much harder to get that set aside. But if you have those facts, if you have the paternity test and the bio dad ready to say, “Yep, that’s my kid. I want to take care of it.” The court in that case will usually set it aside.

David Crum:

Good gracious guys do not sign those paternity things.

Meagan Spomer:

Yeah. It reminds me of a case I dealt with shortly after I left child support enforcement. And I was still getting referrals for all of the messy baby mama drama cases that were out there. And in this case, the parties, they had already gone through a divorce and there were two children. The divorce was final. After the divorce was final, dad, who has a twin brother, comes to find out that mom had been having an affair with her twin brother, his twin brother during the marriage and was possibly the father of one of his children.

David Crum:

I don’t even think that’s cheating, honestly.

Meagan Spomer:

And he comes to me and he says, “I want to know if I’m the father of this child.” We did get a court to order a genetic test, but the genetic test said they were both the father because they’re identical

Brooke Mathieu:

Twins. Sounds like some Mori, something off of Mori.

Meagan Spomer:

And because they were married, the presumption of paternity attached. And so it defaulted to my client who was the husband at the time. And I don’t know that we’ll ever know who the father of that child is because the genetic test says it’s both of them.

David Crum:

And mom denied. Did mom deny it? Really?

Meagan Spomer:

Oh

David Crum:

Boy.

Meagan Spomer:

Mom didn’t deny the affair, but she did deny that he could have been the father. Well, how

David Crum:

Do you know?

Meagan Spomer:

She doesn’t even know. Exactly.

David Crum:

She doesn’t even know. Meagan, is there a statute of limitations on these in the paternity cases? Do you have to –

Meagan Spomer:

There is. Yeah. There’s a four year statute of limitations on when you can assert paternity over a child, but not for when you can disestablish paternity. So if you have this baby, you’re not married, you’re either not at the hospital or choose not to sign the acknowledgement of paternity at the hospital. You have four years to establish paternity of that child.

And that goes for both parents. Now in Nebraska at least, that statute of limitations does not apply to the state. So you’ve got kind of a back door in if either mom or dad wants to establish paternity, either to collect child support or establish a custody order. And I see this come up most often in situations where the parties weren’t married. Either they were on the rocks or for whatever reason, the father wasn’t at the hospital, but they’re an intact family. They live together. They raise the child together, but there’s never a formal record of paternity made. And then all of a sudden, once the child’s older than four, they break up and dad comes to find out, I have no right to custody over this child who I’ve been raising along with my partner for however many years. And so in those situations, getting paternity established before those four years is going to be important.

David Crum:

Meagan, let’s talk about the public policy behind this because this is one where I feel like I’m a little surprised, especially in the Midwest. Because first of all, let me ask you, would you agree that when laws are passed in these things, usually the law shits all over the woman? Do you think that’s accurate?

Meagan Spomer:

I would generally agree that that’s true. Yes.

David Crum:

Okay. Maybe not in those terms, but generally speaking, they do not favor the woman. When we go back and we look at fault divorce, fault was in there to punish women. They had to prove grounds. They had to prove someone was cheating. They had to prove someone was abusing them. And it was very difficult and often easier to force women to stay married. So this one always kind of makes me do a double take because what we’re saying here is, hey, look, the woman went out, or not just the woman, but this was a relationship outside of the marriage in which there was a pregnancy or even outside of the marriage, just even outside of marriage. Outside

Meagan Spomer:

Of a marriage.

David Crum:

Outside of a marriage. And the man is not the father. And you would think the law’s right. Yes, we’re going to protect this man against paying support and the woman’s going to have to figure it out and she’s going to have to support that child. She’s the one that did this. But that’s not what they say. They say the opposite. So how do we get to this? How do we get to this policy?

Meagan Spomer:

The almighty dollar. It comes down to the state preferring a father to be on the hook financially than the state being on the hook financially. Unbelievable. And yeah, particularly in conservative states too, right? Fiscal responsibility. You’ve got a government that will go out of their way to not support a child if there is a parent who can support that child for the state in their place. And so they would rather have the wrong father legally responsible than no father responsible at all.

David Crum:

And aside from just the financial costs, right? Anybody that watched Game of Thrones knows what a moniker, terrible moniker it is to be called a bastard. And so it seems to me, do you think that this is part of it too, that just for the general wellbeing of the child kind of forcing a father into the picture is what the state’s looking at?

Meagan Spomer:

Yeah. I think that’s the stated policy is the non-bastardization of these children. And maybe this is because I’m jaded, but four years in child support enforcement, the state couldn’t care less whether there’s a parent. They’re more concerned about how they’re going to collect the support that they’re paying out to the parent, the custodial parent. How are they going to recoup that? How are they going to recoup the Title $20 for childcare? How are they going to recoup the WIC money or the Medicaid money? That is the primary concern. But they’ll say all day that it’s more about not having a parent in the picture.

David Crum:

So what are some of the more bizarre cases you’ve seen? I can’t think of a weirder one than the twins, the woman having an affair with the twins, but that’s got to stand out in your mind. But what else have you seen that you think is worth talking about?

Meagan Spomer:

Well, in the vein of egregious child support orders that were outrageous, it was probably a 30 or 40 year old order. It was really old. The parties were well into their 60s. Yes. Dad owed something over 150,000 in back child support. But again, all the children were adults. This was arrearage only. It wasn’t currently running. But it was, I mean, from the ’80s, those interest rates were like 12%. So they got huge quickly.

David Crum:

Oh my God.

Meagan Spomer:

We finally got this guy served because we got to collect something on this order. Mom comes to the hearing. And in these cases, the court can appoint a public defender to the payor because if you don’t pay your child support, you risk going to jail. And so since it’s quasi-criminal, they get a lawyer. So I said, “You have a lawyer. Why don’t you talk to them and then I’ll talk to her and we’ll all come back and see what we can work out.” The mother, who the state doesn’t represent the mother, right? So I’m not really talking to mom. I don’t have any interest in talking to mom. Mom goes to the public defender and says, “If he’ll take a bath with me, I’ll wave 100% of what he owes.”

David Crum:

Oh my God, I remember this.

Brooke Mathieu:

A bath?

Meagan Spomer:

A bath. He’ll

Brooke Mathieu:

Take a bath with her?

Meagan Spomer:

If you will take a bath with me, I’ll wave it all. $150,000 gone. So the public defender comes over to me and says, “I’ve never had this happen to me before.” And I was like, “What did you say to him?” And she goes, “I told him to take the bath.”

David Crum:

Did he take the

Meagan Spomer:

Bath?

Brooke Mathieu:

Yeah. Did he take the bath?

Meagan Spomer:

He didn’t. He went to jail.

David Crum:

Oh my God. He really didn’t want to take that bath.

Brooke Mathieu:

That sounds

Meagan Spomer:

Like some

Brooke Mathieu:

Animosity. That’s crazy.

David Crum:

Yeah. Oh my God. Talk a little bit about where I find these cases so tragic, it’s honestly not what we’re talking about. It’s not, oh my God, maybe I’m the father, maybe I’m not. It’s really the circumstances that bring these people together. I mean, don’t we both see this? It’s like you’ve got, maybe you meet a girl and it’s a one night stand or maybe you’re together for, I don’t know, a month. You would never marry this person. And then you end up having a kid. How do you see these cases play out? And I recall them being pretty contentious. What are the dynamics that drive these things?

Meagan Spomer:

I find they go one of two ways. Either they can’t even share space or they operate like business partners.

The less emotional attachment there was between them, a lot of times the less hostility there is. They’re not mad at each other for anything. They both took a risk. This thing happened and either they made it together or the mother made it on her own that she’s going to have this child. And now they’ve got to figure out an arrangement for how that’s going to work. Sometimes in that situation, mom says, “If you don’t want to be involved, you don’t need to be involved. You’re off the hook if that’s what you want.” And sometimes dad will say, “No, I want to be a parent.” And they figure it out. Those actually happen far more often than you’d think because there’s no relational history. There’s no wronging of one another. And so that surprised me when I started the private practice side of this of, wow, you’d think these one night stands would be some of the hardest to work out, but they’re not.

Oh, that

David Crum:

Makes a lot

Brooke Mathieu:

Of sense.

Meagan Spomer:

They don’t hate each other.

Brooke Mathieu:

What happens when –

Meagan Spomer:

It’s the couples that her together and break up and are together and break up. And maybe they have multiple children throughout those breakups. Those are the ones that are the hardest to deal with because they hate each other.

David Crum:

And

Meagan Spomer:

Maybe they love each other, but they really hate each other. And they both got something horrible to say about the other, but then you got to look at them and say, well, then why’d you have multiple children with them? You made the choice as an adult to keep coming back to this relationship. And I get it. There are those situations where there’s abuse happening and this, that. I’m not talking about that. I’m just talking about two people behaving badly, treating each other badly, but continuing to repeat those patterns. Getting them to understand that they have a choice. They can either put their child ahead of their hatred of one another, or they can spend the rest of their lives miserable. And that’s what we deal with.

Brooke Mathieu:

So I have a question for you, Meagan. What about, you said sometimes it’ll happen where mom says, “Hey, you don’t need to be involved if you don’t need to be.” And maybe dad says, “Yep, I don’t want to be involved. You got this.” And then 10 years down the road comes back and is like, “Hey, I messed up. Did a lot of work. I want to play an active role.” Are their rights out from a legal perspective or is there anything they can do legally or they just have to reach an agreement with the co-parent and the child?

Meagan Spomer:

That’ll depend on if they signed an acknowledgement or not. So if that man is on the birth certificate, but decided to walk away after that, he does have the legal right to file a custody action and seek contact with that child. Now, is it going to be fifty fifty? Probably not. But he does have the right to seek to establish time and a relationship with that child. If he has not signed an acknowledgement, if there’s no parent listed on that birth certificate, or if someone else signed the acknowledgement. If later on down the road, mom meets a nice guy and it’s before the four years and he signs the acknowledgement and does his poor man’s adoption, then bio dad has less than no rights. Because there’s a legal parent.

David Crum:

Yeah. Yeah. So as we’re kind of getting to the end of the time here, I wanted to ask you to give some advice to the listeners. So the first thing is, if somebody is in this situation, they’re watching, they have a girlfriend that’s pregnant. What should they do when it comes time? First of all, let’s talk about assuming they’re not going to be together. How should they be looking at this? What are their next steps? What do they do when the baby’s born?

Meagan Spomer:

Especially if you’re not going to be together. Don’t sign the acknowledgement and talk about it beforehand. It’s much easier to make this decision before you’re at the hospital holding a baby and all of those emotions are flowing and they put a piece of paper in front of you and say, “Here, daddy, sign the acknowledgement.” Take the time beforehand to have the conversation. It’s one of those really tough conversations that’s really important. And if you can communicate why it’s important that you wait to sign anything, even if there’s no suspicion, right? If it’s just like a cross your T’s and dot your I’s type situation, I can’t promise that that conversation will go well, but it’s a conversation that you’d much rather have before you’re holding a child in the hospital room because that makes it a lot harder to say no. But if you know the plan ahead of time that you’re going to be there, you’re going to participate in the birth, you’re going to hold the baby, but you’re not going to sign the acknowledgement, you can tell the hospital staff that ahead of time and they won’t even bring it to you.

So take the time while emotions are not high. Think about it. Make sure you understand the consequence of signing an acknowledgement of paternity, because once you do it, it is damn near impossible to undo it.

David Crum:

And then the last question, so for fathers that, and I wanted this to be a little come to Jesus talk as well. So this is a situation where you’re not going to be together. You got this person pregnant. You’re probably separated before the baby’s even coming, but you know it’s yours. And you do want to be involved. You really do want to be a father. And I’m not just talking young guys, this happens to old guys, older guys too. But I see so many guys blow this process up early by demanding to have the kid. What should they expect? What’s a good way for a guy to approach these types of paternity cases, to get child visitation established and all the things that they need to do?

Meagan Spomer:

The first thing you would want to do is even if you’re not in a romantic relationship, do everything you possibly can to develop a good co-parenting relationship. That means making sure she has what she needs during the pregnancy. That means showing up to appointments, right? Or at least following up with her after appointments if she’s not comfortable with you being there. Check in on the wellbeing of the baby throughout the pregnancy. Show her that you have an interest in being a parent. Because parenting isn’t just about the fun stuff. It’s about the really unfun stuff. In fact, it’s mostly about the really unfun stuff. And so if you’re not in it with her from the beginning, even as a platonic partner, she’s going to have a really hard time accepting that you want to take this child from her for any period of time, even though it’s yours too.

So take those steps early, do it right. Talk to her about what you’re planning to do legally so that she’s not surprised by it. Maybe even go talk to a lawyer together. But you’re going to want good legal advice. You’re going to want to talk to a lawyer about the timing of when you file, how genetic tests are performed, whether or not to sign the acknowledgement. Spoiler, don’t. And get that paternity test while you’re still in the hospital. It’s really easy to do and it’s not invasive. It doesn’t hurt the baby. It doesn’t hurt you. It’s a cheek swab. Get it done while you’re at the hospital so that there’s no question. And then from there, come up with a realistic plan with the child’s mother about how you’re going to share time because it’s going to change over time. A child really can’t be away from their mother 50% of the time when they’re an infant.

So be realistic about your expectations, be sensitive to the needs of both the baby and the mother and work on it together because this is a group project. Parenting is a group project. And if you’re at odds with each other, the only one that’s going to suffer is this child.

David Crum:

Yeah. I think that is such great advice. Meagan, I always appreciate your thoughtful answers. People who are watching should know that obviously you do more than this. You don’t specialize in paternity cases.

Meagan Spomer:

I

David Crum:

Do not know. But Meagan, the other thing I appreciate about you is you do a lot of alternative dispute resolution, meaning you do a lot of mediation cases. And I think there’s a real interest in you helping people get through these really difficult situations. I know you’re tough. I’ve seen you be tough, but when you need to be, but mostly I know that you care about people and clients. So really appreciate your time. Thanks so much for being on. And if people have something that they’d like to talk to you about, what’s the best way for them to reach out to you?

Meagan Spomer:

Yeah, you can find me at our website, nebraskalegalgroup.com or call our front desk, 402-509-7033 and ask for

David Crum:

Me. Awesome. Well, Meagan, thanks so much for your time and have a great week.

Meagan Spomer:

Thanks, Meg, for having me.

David Crum:

Take care guys.

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