What 250 Years of the Rule of Law Asks of Today’s Lawyers – 2026 ALPS Bar Leaders Retreat

Episode Notes

Transcript

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:00:00 – 00:00:19]

I feel inspired. I’m watching people do really good work. They’re good people and they’re trying to help other people. And so you go back and you kind of say to yourself on the plane ride home, am I doing enough? You know, what more can I do? And it’s, again, maybe your tiny steps increase and maybe they make that difference.

Marc Raco [00:00:24 – 00:01:07]

Thank you so much for joining me for another in our series of ongoing informative conversations recorded right here on location in Missoula, Montana, at the Alps Insurance Retreat for Bar Leaders. I’m excited for this conversation. It’s with Susan Bradford Tarley. She’s the president of none other than the Virginia State Bar. She’s a partner at Tarley Robinson PLC in Williamsburg, Virginia. It’s a practice that focuses on real estate law, business law, community associations, and creditors’ rights. She is a former adjunct professor at William Mary Law School. Susan’s also a former substitute circuit court judge.

Marc Raco [00:01:08 – 00:01:36]

She served on the Virginia State Bar Council Executive Committee and Clients Protection Fund leadership. She is an inductee of the Virginia Lawyers Hall of Fame and is a Virginia Law Foundation Fellow. So welcome. Thank you for being here. So you are, of course, the president of the state, uh, the Virginia State Bar. How is Virginia fitting into the overall climate of the legal profession in the United States?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:01:37 – 00:02:16]

I think Virginia is a very, I guess, important player in the, the current climate. And a lot of that comes from, you know, where democracy started. And Virginia lawyers played a huge role in establishing the democracy in our country. So we’ve been looking at that just as a Virginia State Bar. The theme of our president last year was Virginia Lawyers Make a Difference. He also would change the emphasis from time to time and say Virginia Lawyers Make a Difference. So kind of the message to keep going. And that’s one of the messages that I’m bringing this year is that we are in the 250th year.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:02:17 – 00:02:35]

And it is a continuing obligation of our profession to make sure that we continue to protect the rule of law. We continue to protect the democracy that’s so important to everyone in this country, and that each generation plays a role in that. We can’t be complacent. We have to pay attention to it, and we have to nurture it.

Marc Raco [00:02:36 – 00:02:43]

One of the few professions really that has some power, some muscle to control its own destiny.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:02:43 – 00:02:43]

Yes.

Marc Raco [00:02:43 – 00:03:07]

Yes. You know, as the president of the Virginia State Bar, You know, there’s a lot of, a lot of things in the air to be concerned about, everything from community to ethics to job satisfaction to vulnerabilities and the constant changing state of the legal system. What’s been your North Star so far? What’s your mind on most?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:03:07 – 00:03:21]

One of our missions is to protect the public. And then I think so much of what we do as the Virginia State Bar flows from that. And I found it a little difficult to pick one for my theme for the year. And so I kind of picked 4.

Marc Raco [00:03:22 – 00:03:23]

That’s a way to handle it.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:03:24 – 00:03:24]

Yeah. The first—

Marc Raco [00:03:24 – 00:03:25]

are you a Libra? Yeah.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:03:26 – 00:04:20]

The first being kind of the foundational principles that guide us as lawyers. And that goes back to our rules of professional conduct and ethics, professionalism. I was lucky I had a mentor very early who said, your integrity is everything and you protect your license at all costs. a client asks you to do something that you’re not supposed to do, you just don’t do it. And it was wonderful advice. And so looking at those foundational principles that guide us as lawyers, and that’s, you know, being truthful, it is protecting the rule of law, it is honoring, you know, the fact that we have such a structure with all of our laws. It’s making sure that we have candor with our judiciary and that we’re all sort of rowing in the same direction, even though we are disagreeing on various topics. The second one is wellness, and I think you’ve talked about that a little bit.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:04:20 – 00:05:07]

The wellness of our attorneys and myself, and for me, is very important. And all of us have a story, and all of us have been through things. And a lot of times we only look at it from the lens of if somebody, you know, suddenly, you know, they have an addiction that is interfering with their practice, if somehow their mental health has a crisis issue. And I really also want to bring a focus to the everyday wellness that we have to look at. What we do for a living is stressful. Right now, the status of kind of the legal world is a little stressful. So, I think it’s trying to bring the message to our lawyers that this is every day. We should have the conversation, and we should normalize that conversation.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:05:08 – 00:05:46]

Because we are all really in this together. You know, that common humanity guides us. We also have a strategic plan. So there’s some of that that we still have to focus on. And that’s a 2025 to 2028 plan. Part of that is our financial stability. And so we’re going to continue to look at that member engagement, making sure we’re continuing to engage our members, young lawyers, older lawyers, you You know, at all times. And then the last one is we have a lot of legal deserts in Virginia, and most states in the United States have a lot of legal deserts, and it’s where there are no lawyers to do the work.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:05:47 – 00:06:24]

And we’re, you know, always looking at that issue. We did a huge kind of white paper last year that was printed. It’s called the EGAD Report, and it’s Entry, Growth, and Distribution of Lawyers in Virginia. And one of our past presidents kind of spearheaded that and made sure that we did the work. And it’s a report that’s pretty all-encompassing. It dealt with all of the stakeholders. And, you know, the Virginia State Bar is probably the one that can’t really solve the issue. But the resolutions that are in this report involve the law schools, the localities.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:06:24 – 00:06:29]

Can we have stipends, those kind of things? And so there’s a lot of work to still do in that area.

Marc Raco [00:06:29 – 00:07:30]

So let’s talk about that a little bit. The, you know, you kind of touched on professional satisfaction, well-being lightly with mental health and so forth. But, you know, as you talk about law schools, part of what you’re talking about is paving the way for the next generation of lawyers to fill the gap of a shortage of lawyers. And also, you know, the future, they have to come into an industry that looks like one they want to be in. So how do you think about that in terms of— because mental health is part of serving how good an attorney is and how well they’re doing their job and capably they’re doing the job. It’s a human thing. It also has to do with retention, retaining lawyers that are good and established and knowledgeable so they don’t move move on because they just, they don’t want to do it anymore, can’t do it anymore. And then there’s the getting the new blood in.

Marc Raco [00:07:31 – 00:07:48]

So how are you thinking about straddling those different worlds, knowing that the new generation coming in may be looking at through a little different of lens because of the nature of how their generation thinks versus an older generation?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:07:48 – 00:08:29]

And I think that that is, it’s kind of the puzzle that all professions probably have right now. I think with technology, many professions have changed dramatically. And I also think with each coming generation, there are little nuances. But I feel like after COVID, we had big nuances. There were big changes in how we work. Remote work became a huge possibility for many people. And many took advantage of it. And like that, remote working, but remote working also takes you out of certain human contact, maybe on a daily basis, and it changes how you work.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:08:30 – 00:09:21]

So it’s trying to look at that and say, you know, that’s okay, but how do we still cultivate a personal relationship with you and a connection so that we can make sure that we’re addressing the needs that you do have, within our profession. And, you know, sometimes we look at mentors and mentors have to have an engagement. You know, you have teachers who taught you and there was not the connection, but then you have somebody who really mattered in your life and you consider them a mentor. You go back constantly to things that they told you, and oftentimes it wasn’t the task that they were teaching you. They were teaching you maybe how to be a good person. or they were teaching you something about life in general. And I think that’s the connection we have to have with the younger people in our profession so we know how to address it.

Marc Raco [00:09:21 – 00:10:04]

With that in mind, let’s talk about career outlook and professional direction. The people that are— the professionals that are in the legal field right now, particularly in the Virginia Bar, what is your thinking? What are you seeing about how they’re looking at their own career outlook? I mean, there’s always been changes in the judicial system, but I think we can agree there’s a lot of stuff flying through the air right now that it’s sort of an unprecedented density of challenges. So how is that affecting and what other factors are affecting the sense of where you want to go with your career?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:10:06 – 00:11:03]

That’s a tough question because I think there are a lot of pressures right now that are flowing from sometimes what were the cases or maybe the judicial decisions that we’re seeing that are reported to us, which that situation is very different than what many of us are experiencing in our practice areas. We’re not, you know, I’m not seeing that as much with my colleagues In terms of I do, I have a real estate practice, and so a lot of my transactional work is not necessarily affected in a sense. But what I am seeing with many of my colleagues is that you know what’s reported in the national media affects how hopeful we feel about our profession, and then that goes directly to your wellness because it creates an anxiety and a stress and an acknowledgment that. I’m not in a position to jump in and immediately change something.

Marc Raco [00:11:03 – 00:11:05]

The helplessness a little bit.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:11:05 – 00:12:05]

Correct. And I find that my service to the bar is very helpful for my own hopefulness and my own anxiety and feeling under stress because you’re around people who are continuing to take those little steps to make the difference. And sometimes we underestimate those little steps, But the little steps are typically what get us to the endgame. And so I try to encourage the young lawyers that I do talk to and say, you just need to take a breath and remember that you’re moving in the right direction because we’re seeing challenges with people not being truthful with the court. We’re seeing challenges, you know, we’ve always seen some challenges with depending on the lawyer you are up against, how truthful they are about what they’re doing. And then we’re also seeing it with people feeling just that, that there’s a helplessness, like you said, and that how am I going to make that difference?

Marc Raco [00:12:06 – 00:12:10]

Is it about giving hope or is it about giving help?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:12:11 – 00:12:57]

Well, I think, I think it’s both. I really do think it’s both. And I think that when you talk to people who engage in bar service, They find that that is a place where they not only get help, but they also find that hopefulness because you’re working with people who are maybe have a similar mindset that they want to help our profession be better. They want to make sure we protect the public. They want to make sure that we follow through on the oath that we swore to and making sure that we’re, you know, supporting the Constitution. We are following what the laws tell us to do. We are being truthful all the time. And it’s interesting because for us, truthfulness is not just the statements you make in court.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:12:58 – 00:13:05]

It is part of how you conduct yourself as a lawyer and as a person. That’s what most of our rules of professional conduct address.

Marc Raco [00:13:06 – 00:13:37]

Given the, the need for more lawyers and legal professionals, Which I find seem to be a similar story across in quite a few states, not unique to Virginia, not unique to Maine, not unique to Montana. What are some of the challenges or maybe observations you have about workload operations and just the, the business realities that, that attorneys and their firms are, are looking at right now and trying to solve?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:13:38 – 00:14:23]

You know, the business reality for many young attorneys is that you come out of law school and you are heavily burdened with debt, and that starts to minimize the choices you might have in terms of how you— the position you want to take. So if you wanted to start your own practice, you have worries. Will I be able to pay my debt? Will I be able to afford to live? And I think that’s our, our biggest business reality is the cost of going to law school. There are ways that people can do some loan forgiveness through their law schools. There are, you know, other options in terms of the choice you make in the law school that you go to and whether you’re paying out-of-state tuition or in-state tuition.

Marc Raco [00:14:24 – 00:14:24]

Mm-hmm.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:14:24 – 00:14:41]

But we’re also finding that a lot of law schools, you know, if you want to have kind of that higher ranking, It seems that then law schools are accepting more, many out-of-state students. I don’t know if that takes a spot for somebody who’s an in-state student, but they’re all—

Marc Raco [00:14:41 – 00:14:43]

Who are doing what they have to do to survive.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:14:43 – 00:15:18]

Yes. And so it’s, it’s those, it’s the rankings that kind of drive some of the law schools’ decisions. I think they still have at heart all the parts that we want them to have, which is we want to educate, new lawyers. And I don’t think anybody has a question about that. I think where we end up is, you know, how expensive it is. And then how does somebody afford to go into a private practice on their own in a rural area or return to maybe where they grew up and make sure that the people in that community have access to legal services?

Marc Raco [00:15:19 – 00:16:31]

Speaking of law students and education, you know, certainly one area of debate, I would say, is the use of AI in education and the teaching of AI in legal education. Because that’s becoming, you know, I can’t think of a person I’ve talked to over the last few days here at this retreat that hasn’t made AI a part of what they were talking about. It’s just in the air. And so my question is, From your seat, both as an attorney and as the bar president, how are you looking at trying to navigate the fact that you have a certain amount of resistance from one subset of attorneys? You have particularly a younger generation coming in that that’s how they do things. I’m generalizing, but it’s true. And then you have a certain amount of open-minded people that that also. To them, they see opportunity if it’s utilized correctly and ethically. So you have a wide range of thinking about this and different ethical viewpoints and different fears.

Marc Raco [00:16:33 – 00:16:49]

And then, but again, also different opportunities it may present to some people. So with all that said, how are you thinking about this? Like, wide canvas of both danger slash possibility?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:16:50 – 00:17:46]

Sure. So we use AI at— we’re a very small firm. My husband and I practice together and we use AI, but we’ve also recognized it is really just a tool. It is not something that is going to take away how I practice or the fact that I need to review everything and I need to read the cases and I need to still do the work. It’s no different than the computerized research that we used in the past. You still had to read the cases. And there’s a website that’s maintained by a group, and I don’t know the name, but they tell you about the cases where lawyers are being sanctioned for using AI cases. And it’s fascinating to me because there are lawyers who will, even once they’re caught and the court says this case doesn’t exist, they will then— there was one that turned around and submitted a brief, and they quoted more quotes from the nonexistent case.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:17:47 – 00:18:47]

And I have a very difficult time understanding that. And for me, it was— we had a book that was a narrative on various topics, and you would look at the narrative, and it would tell you and explain to you maybe a legal concept. But it also then had footnotes, and the footnotes had cases and a quote that would come from the case. But you still had to read the case because how would you do the analysis to know that it even applied to the facts that you had? It was always interesting in our general district court in Williamsburg when the judge would ask somebody, well, what were the facts of that case? And you could just watch somebody melt because they’d say, uh, And the pause was very long. And at that point it was like, well, you can’t even argue why it applies. And I kind of see this as not very different from that. You still should be doing the work. AI is, it is a nice tool.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:18:47 – 00:19:14]

You can use it for a lot of different things, but in also looking at how often it hallucinates, the percentages are still pretty high. So you still really need to go behind your work and know what you’re doing. I think that it can be a helpful tool in managing work. I think it can be a helpful tool in helping, you know, if you have a question on how you’re writing something and does this— am I writing this in the most clear fashion that I can?

Marc Raco [00:19:14 – 00:19:14]

Sure.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:19:15 – 00:19:16]

Sure. I think it’s great.

Marc Raco [00:19:16 – 00:19:17]

Gets you out of your head a little bit.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:19:18 – 00:20:33]

But we are— we’re also looking at it like in, you know, how do you use AI to help with the legal desert issue? You know, is it something that you can use? I’m not necessarily a proponent of that at this point, because I find that if lawyers who are trained and who have been educated at a law school cannot properly use AI, I feel like asking citizens to use it and the public to use it to help themselves in terms of legal issues is very difficult. We also have had some situations where we have pro se people representing themselves and they’re using AI and we get very long letters that have a lot of material that doesn’t apply. If there’s a way to make it more like kind of the app where certain things are, you’re directed like, okay, you put in what, yes, this is my problem. I have a landlord-tenant issue and you can make it very specific to maybe lead the person to the right area, that may be different. But we’re, you know, we’re not there in Virginia yet. And I don’t know that, you know, any state is. I’m not sure. But it’s a— I think it’s an interesting area.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:20:33 – 00:20:38]

I think it can be helpful to us as a tool, but I don’t think it’s going to take the place of lawyers.

Marc Raco [00:20:39 – 00:21:51]

The danger that a lot of people are experiencing— this website you mentioned about attorneys that are sanctioned and so forth— I personally think Most of that is because those attorneys may possibly have tried to do a shortcut. They tried to, instead of doing the work, they went type, type, type, type, type. I don’t have to do the work anymore. Instead of utilizing AI perhaps to strategize what work needs to be done. Once I look at these cases, Give me some help thinking about what I should be looking for based on this data of the case I’m working on. What am I looking for? That’s no different to me than having a colleague you can bounce ideas off of. But as, say, a solo practitioner or a newer associate or someone that just hasn’t had the vast experience, or maybe someone that is practicing in a little bit of a new area, That vast knowledge may not be that different than looking through a whole bunch of books to eventually find the answer, but it’s happening faster. That’s where you can use it, I think, to scale.

Marc Raco [00:21:52 – 00:22:10]

And then the work— the reason that attorneys can be paid so much and make a good living is because they’re the ones that do the work and have the knowledge. I think that’s the application that reduces risk or mitigates risk, but at the same time may possibly provide some value.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:22:10 – 00:22:39]

Yes, I, I agree with you. And my husband and I kind of joke around in our firm and sometimes we call it our associate, you know, because you can go to it and you can maybe start to get a draft of something maybe that’s a little different than what you’re doing. I’ve also found it helpful to use it to look at some of my kind of document drafts that I like to use. And like, is there a better way to say this? Does this make sense?

Marc Raco [00:22:39 – 00:22:39]

Yes.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:22:40 – 00:22:52]

And get this other opinion. There are times when it is off base. I’ve asked it to do sort of a comparison of like a 1979 document that I’m now rewriting.

Marc Raco [00:22:53 – 00:22:53]

Yeah.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:22:54 – 00:22:56]

And there’s no, there’s no opportunity to redline.

Marc Raco [00:22:56 – 00:22:56]

Right.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:22:57 – 00:22:58]

And tell me a comparison of this.

Marc Raco [00:22:58 – 00:22:59]

Perfect.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:22:59 – 00:23:22]

And it does this chart, and the chart has had errors before because I still have to know what I’m doing. I still have to check the chart. So this is what I— it’s what, it’s what you said, like, this is— the work is being done, but I still have to look at it. So it’s no different than the work that our paralegals and our legal assistants do. We still have to look at it.

Marc Raco [00:23:22 – 00:24:06]

That’s it. I think the thing a lot of people have to keep in mind is that we are still in the very earliest days of AI and the legal industry’s use of AI. As people continue to use it, it will further inform it, further inform it, and become more and more accurate and useful as time goes on. That may not eliminate hallucinations. The results to your queries or your prompts are going to become increasingly more meaningful and, and Robust. All right. So other than AI, what other types of innovation or technology do you think might be important, or are you seeing deployed that is advancing the operations and potential success of attorneys and their firms?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:24:06 – 00:24:46]

For the Virginia State Bar, we offer a couple things to our members, which I think have been very helpful. So you have the opportunity to have legal research done. So on As a member, you go on our website and there’s a section for legal research and it has, you know, all of the case law in there. So it’s not an AI tool necessarily, it’s a research tool. And so we have that opportunity for our members. We also have another one that will help them with their trust accounting. And trust accounts for lawyers are sacred, right? So you have to make sure you’re doing it the right way. You have Various reporting reports that you have to do and you’re responsible for.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:24:47 – 00:25:25]

Those reports aren’t necessarily turned into the bar, but it’s something that you know could burn you if you do anything where you overdraw that trust account. You can’t use another. For the most part, we all have like separate. We have trust accounts, and we may have multiple trust accounts, but we don’t have one for each client. And so you’re keeping a lot of this client money on. on a ledger type of system. And so offering a product to our lawyers that’s just included with your dues to be able to make sure that they’re doing all the right things with their trust accounts, I think is a great technology innovation for us.

Marc Raco [00:25:26 – 00:25:29]

It sounds like it goes beyond operational. This is a risk mitigation as well.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:25:29 – 00:26:06]

Yes, yes, it provides both. And I was taught, I was kind of lucky because I was a paralegal while I went to law school. And I was responsible for a real estate department and a law firm. And those trust reports had to be accurate. And so if we were a dollar off, you know, so you had to then report why you were a dollar off. And it could be, well, a check got cashed for the wrong amount. And then we can’t really change that because the person who— the bank that cashed it, you know, kind of did that. But I was lucky because before I went out on my own, I’d had that experience.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:26:06 – 00:26:15]

And I think some of those things are pretty daunting, um, if you are going to be a solo practitioner or a small firm and you suddenly have those responsibilities.

Marc Raco [00:26:15 – 00:26:49]

Oh yeah. And, you know, we mentioned about mental health earlier. The more that mental health, aging, disabilities, substance abuse enter into the reality of any profession, including the law, the opportunity to to miss something increases dramatically. So that’s one type of risk. Is there any other type of risks, given your seat as president, that you’re seeing that across the bar a lot of eyes are on right now?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:26:50 – 00:28:24]

I think a lot of eyes are on what is happening in terms of the rule of law. You know, we are a mandatory state bar. We have pretty good guardrails on things we can do and we can’t do. We cannot be political in any way. If we had to lobby on an issue, we have to get permission from the Virginia Supreme Court. So we are an administrative agency of the Virginia State Supreme Court. And so I think that’s probably one that’s on a lot of our members’ minds is How do we make sure that the rule of law is preserved? And I think the other one that is on many of our members’ minds are some of the attacks we’ve had on the judiciary. And so I think those are some big issues, but I also don’t know that those are issues that the State Bar is addressing in terms of what is our mission and what is our responsibility and what do we provide? And I think when I look at that, I’m looking more at how do we stay relevant? How do we continue to engage our members? And how do we provide them with a lot of the kind of wellness guidance that is so important? And we have a lot of opportunities in terms of providing wellness for our lawyers, but just like me, Many of them don’t know what is really available and how it’s available.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:28:24 – 00:29:33]

And we have the Virginia Judges and Lawyers Assistance Program, and that originally started out as lawyers helping lawyers, which was really related more to substance abuse addiction. And then it’s kind of shifted and they’ve pivoted to provide more. But even when I kind of looked on the website and thought about what they do, I thought it was more related to more of a crisis type of situation that somebody’s experiencing, you know, maybe addiction or substance abuse. And I’ve met with them and they’re like, no, it’s not just limited to that. And so that’s kind of what we want to make sure that we’re bringing. So I think if I had to put my finger on something, I think that a lot of the things that are percolating in our industry are probably more creating some anxiety and stress because we realize that not one of us is responsible, you know, to preserve the rule of law. It’s all those steps that I talked about, and you can only take the step if you’re well. And that’s how you help people, is you make sure that your oxygen mask is on first, and then you can take the step.

Marc Raco [00:29:34 – 00:30:01]

Oh, perfect. So here we are at the Alps Insurance Retreat for Bar Leaders in Missoula, Montana. Uh, what does a partner, a company like ALPS, mean to you in helping advance, uh, your career and, and that of your members? Uh, why, why is having a company like ALPS as a collaborator or partner or resource important?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:30:01 – 00:30:58]

You know, when you’re a, a small firm or solo practitioner, Having your professional liability insurance in place is really important, and knowing how it works for you is very important. And I think ALPS has done a great job with making sure that our bar leadership, our, our staff leadership is well-versed in what they provide, how they provide it. And it’s been a long-term relationship. It was the first insurance I got as a solo. And I felt comfortable doing it because our— it was, you know, who the bar was using. And so you just had a comfort level there. And now sort of with that longevity, it kind of solidifies the relationship more. And I wasn’t real familiar with a lot of the ins and outs or what this bar leadership conference was about.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:30:59 – 00:31:29]

But I knew that, you know, it’s what we’ve done in the past. Every 2 years, we typically send 2 people here, the president and the president-elect. And you kind of, you know, you don’t want to come out here and just think like, what am I, what am I here for? And so looking at the programming, I, I found it intriguing because it’s programming that is really about other leaders also. And oftentimes as bar leaders, we’re exposed more to people in our own profession.

Marc Raco [00:31:29 – 00:31:29]

Sure.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:31:29 – 00:31:32]

And being exposed to leadership at other levels.

Marc Raco [00:31:32 – 00:31:33]

Well, you really can learn a lot that way.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:31:33 – 00:32:02]

Yes, it’s amazing. And it, and it inspires you. It’s kind of what I talked to at the beginning. What gives me hope is coming to these types of events too, because I feel inspired. I’m watching people do really good work. They’re good people and they’re trying to help other people. And so you go back and you kind of say to yourself on the plane ride home, am I doing enough? You know, what more can I do? And it’s, again, maybe your tiny steps increase and maybe they make that difference.

Marc Raco [00:32:03 – 00:32:09]

Well, that sounds like a good final word to me, but I’m going to ask you one more quick question. What’s your favorite ice cream?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:32:10 – 00:32:12]

My favorite ice cream is still mint chocolate chip.

Marc Raco [00:32:12 – 00:32:17]

Oh, I’m with you. I’m with you. Very good. All right. Well, thank you so much.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:32:17 – 00:32:20]

Thank you so much, Marc. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Marc Raco [00:32:21 – 00:32:24]

Thank you.

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