Community, Burnout, and Knowing Who to Call – 2026 ALPS Bar Leaders Retreat

Episode Notes

Transcript

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:00:00 – 00:00:29]

20 years into my career, I had relationships without ever trying to, right? It’s just showing up, getting to know people, and knowing who’s the kind of person you can turn to for to answer a question or get some help or to become your litigation team. It has created, of course, the bandwidth for providing care and a level of representation that I’ve always taken pride in, but I also sleep at night.

Marc Raco [00:00:37 – 00:01:49]

Welcome to another installment in our series of extraordinary conversations recorded on location in Missoula, Montana at the Alps Insurance Retreat for Bar Leaders. I’m Marc Rako, and I’m, I’m very happy that you’re here. This conversation stands out a little bit different from others in this series because it’s not with the leader of a bar. It’s with the leader of a significant community of legal professionals though. And that person is Susan Carnes Curtis. She is the founder and CEO of Girl Attorney LLC, which can be found at girlattorney.com. Susan is also the owner of Carns Curtiss Law PLLC in Oklahoma City, and she’s a trial lawyer focused on Personal injury and wrongful death litigation, but she built Girl Attorney into a national network of more than get this forty thousand women attorneys. She’s the recipient of the Oklahoma Bar Association Ada Lois Sipwell Fisher Diversity Award and numerous community leadership honors.

Marc Raco [00:01:50 – 00:01:51]

All right, Susan Carns Curtiss.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:01:52 – 00:01:52]

Yeah.

Marc Raco [00:01:53 – 00:01:55]

Good to see you here in Missoula, Montana.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:01:56 – 00:01:56]

Thank you.

Marc Raco [00:01:57 – 00:01:59]

So. How’s everything going so far here?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:02:00 – 00:02:00]

Is it—

Marc Raco [00:02:00 – 00:02:02]

this isn’t your first time in Missoula, is it?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:02:02 – 00:02:18]

It’s not my first time, and it’s just honestly as gorgeous as it was when I was here before. I came a couple of years ago for the same conference, and that was my first time. It’s just lovely, and the conference is amazing.

Marc Raco [00:02:19 – 00:02:38]

Great. And the people here have been remarkable. The kinds of information shared, just Really impressive. So you’re a bit of a unique voice in this series of conversations. I mean, you’re an attorney, obviously, but instead of being a bar leader, I would say you’re a leader of a different kind of community.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:02:39 – 00:02:39]

Yes.

Marc Raco [00:02:40 – 00:02:42]

Uh, tell us about Girl Attorney.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:02:43 – 00:02:44]

Okay.

Marc Raco [00:02:44 – 00:02:46]

And what it is, but mostly why it is.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:02:47 – 00:02:47]

Okay.

Marc Raco [00:02:47 – 00:03:08]

And I mean that less in terms of genesis, although I’m interested, but more about what does Girl Attorney mean for the future of women in the legal profession? And most importantly, as the next generation comes in, how this will be there waiting for them to guide them for the women that will be entering the profession.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:03:09 – 00:04:02]

Well, that’s a great question. I think about it a lot, actually. I, and in spite of the fact that I think about it a lot, I don’t have a, Very good answer. I can say that what we’re here for is to provide a networking community for women attorneys. Now, it’s also welcoming to law students, though it’s not really a place to exchange law school outlines. It is a place for law students to get to know the women in their legal community, whether it’s where they’re in law school, or maybe they join the group in the state where they plan on practicing law in the future. They get to know who, not just who the women are in the community, that’s who they’re going to hear from in the Girl Attorney space. But obviously, sometimes people are going to be asking for who someone recommends.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:04:02 – 00:04:31]

Sometimes the person that woman knows to recommend that’s excellent in that area is not a woman she knows. Most often it is. It’s partly what’s happening in the space is elevating the access and education for and about women in the profession. But at any rate, it’s a space of community. I will say just a bit about the genesis to say—

Marc Raco [00:04:31 – 00:04:31]

Please, go ahead.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:04:32 – 00:05:38]

That was never the— what I— what has turned into is, and pretty quickly it became a space where women attorneys were asking practice-related questions. I didn’t create it for that purpose. I thought— I mean, this was 10 years ago, so in 2016, you know, there were some law firms that were on Facebook, but let’s just say none of the big firms were on. Maybe, maybe, maybe big law was on Facebook just because they had to be. I, I don’t know that they did have to be, but it was not a professional space, not really. And so it Did not occur to me that I’m going to create a Facebook group and women professionals were going to be doing professional related work there. But I did want to create a place where women attorneys could you know enter the room and not be mistaken for something other than who they were, right? And so that’s what I started. I added 46 friends that were all the women lawyers I knew that I was connected with on Facebook.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:05:38 – 00:06:16]

And I imagined that this would be just a place where we could be who we were together. Pretty quickly, people started asking practice-related questions. And then, of course, jurisdiction becomes an issue, counties, and people are seeing questions that they don’t even practice in that state. Pretty quickly, we developed the state groups, and the original one got named National. And I think when it was named National, we maybe had like, 5 states worth represented in it. But I thought, we’ll just keep this one, the one for everybody, and then I’ll create— I’ll add states as we go, which is what has happened.

Marc Raco [00:06:16 – 00:06:30]

How has the objective from the day you first conceived this and said, this is a thing, to where you are now— okay, those first 46 people, now you’re at nearly 1,000-fold of that.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:06:30 – 00:06:33]

Oh no, we’re at over 40,000.

Marc Raco [00:06:33 – 00:06:33]

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:06:33 – 00:06:34]

So that’s— sorry.

Marc Raco [00:06:34 – 00:06:35]

Yes. Yes. So that’s—

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:06:35 – 00:06:36]

yes. Oh, 1,000-fold.

Marc Raco [00:06:36 – 00:06:36]

Whatever. Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:06:36 – 00:06:37]

Yes. That’s what you said.

Marc Raco [00:06:37 – 00:06:40]

So nearly 1,000-fold or so, or on your way.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:06:40 – 00:06:40]

Yes.

Marc Raco [00:06:41 – 00:06:53]

Quite something. How has your perception of what the group is, what it means, what it’s for changed? Now, you were talking about practice-related questions, but it must be more than that.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:06:54 – 00:08:03]

It is so much more. And it’s so much more that even though I spent the last 20 years of my life being a practicing attorney, and much of it in the courtroom as a trial lawyer, I kind of jokingly say that maybe the most important thing I will have done substantively as a lawyer is start a Facebook group. Because all day, every day, women are, A, brave enough to ask the questions about things they don’t know, and additionally, kind and generous enough to answer those questions, right? So whether it’s a substantive question, which often it is, sometimes it’s, I’m going to be in so-and-so’s courtroom addressing this issue. Do you guys, does anybody have any feedback for me on how this judge approaches this? The kinds of conversations that you have if you’re in a firm, a large firm, well, actually, if you’re in a firm of more than one attorney, you’re going to walk down the hall and ask the other attorney or attorneys what they think. Well, this is an opportunity to put the question out to thousands of attorneys easily and quickly.

Marc Raco [00:08:03 – 00:08:04]

Sure.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:08:04 – 00:08:55]

And of course, Maybe the person with the answer doesn’t see your question, but often her her colleague does, and she tags that person in it so they see it. It’s become a much a pretty strong muscle and tool in the toolkit for many women attorneys, and that was again not what I anticipated, and. It’s incredibly meaningful to me that I— it’s funny to have something be accidentally something you created or facilitated and have it be so meaningful. I struggle sometimes knowing how to be the most effective leader because it is not hard for me, but I see how valuable it is and how important it is, and so I wanna be a good steward.

Marc Raco [00:08:57 – 00:09:01]

I don’t mean this as advice, but more a point of conversation.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:09:01 – 00:09:02]

I’ll take all advice.

Marc Raco [00:09:02 – 00:09:40]

But it seems to me like the most effective leaders are the ones that don’t lead everything from the top down and saying, it’s up to me. But instead they find their generals that are of like mind and bring their own flavor to the table and their own meaning to the table. Because if there’s you, then there’s other yous out there. And then You steer them, if you will, and then they execute. And that, you know, that’s how you grow and find more meaning, right? Because that’ll also survive you if there’s a day when you, you don’t think you can do this anymore.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:09:41 – 00:09:50]

Um, I would say one of the things I’m most proud of is providing and facilitating a platform for other women to lead.

Marc Raco [00:09:50 – 00:09:50]

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:09:50 – 00:11:27]

So as, as I see someone have a passion for We had something in the Oklahoma group, gosh, it’s been 9 years ago now, but there was a teacher walkout that was happening. And long story short, on a Wednesday, one of the women in the Oklahoma community said, I feel like I need to show up at the state capitol with the teachers in support of them. And by the Monday following, we had, I think it was 200, I don’t wanna exaggerate, it was at least 200 women attorneys who were at the Capitol walking in solidarity with and drawing attention to the teachers when they were entering their next week of sitting on the front Capitol lawn. I didn’t start that, but I got to see and be a part of it over that weekend. The gal whose idea it was, she and I got interviewed by the national news. The point being, it became really a big thing where hundreds of women were coming together to do this one thing in support of part of our community. I get to see that in usually smaller but still impactful ways all across the US. I just have a front row to watching women lead in their communities.

Marc Raco [00:11:27 – 00:11:51]

Incredible thing. Is this mostly the, the, the social media community? Is there anything that happens beyond that in a formal way? Would you ever get together in person with, you know, some sort of physical meetings, uh, uh, uh, more structured workshops or? education or anything like that, or social gatherings?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:11:51 – 00:12:30]

Not presently. We’ve done it in the past. We’ve done brunches, Second Saturday brunch. We’ve done— I’ve facilitated that and offered that, hey, if anybody in any state is interested in hosting that in your city, let me know. And, you know, we’ll get you whatever you need to get the communication out to the rest of the group that you’re in. We have— I have done webinars and interviewed authors, people in the community who’ve authored books. and have facilitated webinars on different issues. In fact, in the last year, we did one in partnership with ALPS that was on attorney wellbeing and mental health.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:12:31 – 00:12:37]

So, there’s a variety of things, none of which are things people can set their watch by.

Marc Raco [00:12:37 – 00:12:38]

So, let’s talk about that a little bit.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:12:38 – 00:12:39]

Yes.

Marc Raco [00:12:39 – 00:13:00]

Let’s talk about professional satisfaction and wellbeing within the legal community, but particularly applicable to female attorney, women attorneys. What are you seeing is on their minds, not just in general as women or mothers, um, but what’s happening now? What are they thinking about?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:13:00 – 00:14:26]

You know, what I am seeing in the community, what’s interesting is, you know, many times people do post, uh, a question or an inquiry or concern with their identity known, right? But, you know, These groups also now Facebook, by the magic of Facebook, they now allow people to post anonymously. I will say I have seen an uptick of posts from anonymous members, particularly I’ve seen a lot of posts about from young or maybe not young in age, but newer attorneys who are struggling with a lack of education and in the context of mentorship. I’m seeing that across the board. And is it all day, every day? No, but it’s at least, it’s at least weekly I’m seeing that, uh, somewhere in the community. And that is an actual uptick I’m noticing. Um, and then other than that, in general, some— and by the way, plenty of women, the majority of women attorneys, I think, are just, you know, having the same struggles anybody does regardless of gender or profession or whatever. But they’re, they’re doing well and they’re, they’re seeing success and they are enjoying their work and they’re being challenged. That’s great.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:14:27 – 00:15:07]

But when you are hearing people, which is not the majority, but when I’m hearing people express concern, it again, it’s younger attorneys who are Struggling with finding mentorship, kind of asking like, is this normal to be given this many cases? And I’m really struggling to get time with somebody who’s going to give me more direction. And then the other thing is just feeling really burned out. I’m tired. I’m thinking I may be done with this. I think I may need to turn the corner on this profession. But I want to be clear, this isn’t the overall tone or the majority, but this is These are the concerns as expressed. That’s what I’m mostly seeing.

Marc Raco [00:15:08 – 00:15:26]

Interesting. And so, with that in mind, what do you think the average career outlook and professional direction, like, where is that heading for, for, for women attorneys these days? Is there a, a change in where the wind is blowing?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:15:27 – 00:15:48]

I don’t really feel like I can say. I don’t know. Especially because I think in many ways, though the space is obviously limited to women attorneys, I don’t know that what we’re mostly experiencing is unique to our gender.

Marc Raco [00:15:49 – 00:16:43]

That’s fair. But I don’t mean this as a pushback, but I have an additional thought about this. I want to ask you what you think about it. I am consistently hearing from the people I’m having conversations with, attorneys and bar leaders, how there is a trend towards work-life balance and paying attention to mental health. And these types of things are more and more being thought of, particularly with the younger generation of lawyers coming in. And that is so important. It’s no longer about work as hard as you can, make as much money as you can, earn your stripes. It’s about, I want to enter under these conditions, right? Which means, I would argue, I say this as a man, I think that many women have been trying to— women professionals, not just lawyers, have been trying to say, I want work-life balance.

Marc Raco [00:16:44 – 00:16:54]

I want to be a woman and a mother and an attorney, and I can do all those things. And do not underestimate me and do not block me. I don’t mean to size it up, but those things—

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:16:54 – 00:16:54]

Right.

Marc Raco [00:16:56 – 00:17:20]

The trend is catching up with the reality they’ve already been accomplishing, fighting for, advocating for, organizing about, and so forth. Again, that’s just my perception. So I’m wondering if the environment is going to start to make that a more acceptable way of being. And, and what will that mean?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:17:20 – 00:17:33]

I think we are seeing that, and we’re seeing that in part because we’re also seeing things, not just more firms offering more maternity leave, if any, but we’re also seeing firms offer paternity leave.

Marc Raco [00:17:34 – 00:17:34]

Interesting.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:17:34 – 00:19:01]

Right? If any. I created this community for women attorneys. I do think that the majority experience for women in the law overlaps considerably with men. Now, maybe women came in and were more aware of the disparate treatment for parents. There was a presumption, probably it’s fair to say, when it was a predominantly male, if not originally exclusively male profession, well, the wife is going to be handling the majority of things with the kids. And so, you get the luxury of not doing that as the, the working father, right? You’re, you’re the working husband, you know, and then you get to be whatever at home when you finally get there. It was a very strong division of labor. But with the entrance of women more and, and, and, and the broadening of women, women’s experience in the profession, I think, yes, women, frankly, the first women who, were entering the profession really had to conform, right? They, you know, many women who were entering the profession first were told you’re— and whether it was being a lawyer or being a journalist, just 2 examples— well, if you’re going to be a professional, then you need to not have children because that’s what it means to be a professional.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:19:01 – 00:19:42]

You can’t have both. But thankfully, people bucked up against that. And who knows what their circumstances were that either allowed or kind of forced them into operating in both of those worlds at the same time. But as that’s happened, of course, you have more women entering those spaces, staying in these spaces long enough to have a voice that’s now senior and can be potentially respected. But also, I think it’s had a great impact for not just the profession as a whole, but also for parents who are men.

Marc Raco [00:19:43 – 00:19:44]

Mm-hmm.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:19:45 – 00:19:50]

I think we’re seeing it. And do I think this is like the golden age of parenting and being a lawyer?

Marc Raco [00:19:51 – 00:19:51]

No.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:19:51 – 00:20:27]

But I do think there is progress there, and it’s benefiting everyone to include, frankly, ultimately clients, because you’re more likely, if your lawyer has the opportunity to fully engage in the areas of life that they, have chosen to say are important, for example, becoming a parent, if they’re able to engage in that, and it’s not just this thing stuck on the back burner while they are grinding out 70 hours a week for their clients, the client will benefit too. If the person gets to be a more full, fully engaged human, everybody wins.

Marc Raco [00:20:27 – 00:21:25]

So, you know, we talk about humanity, we talk about the realities of life, but there’s also the actual operation of your business part of things. I mean, you’re an experienced personal injury and wrongful death litigation attorney, but in terms of your specialty, and, you know, it takes a bit of operation and administration and tools to do that, obviously. How, for you as an attorney, but also looking across the body of the community that you built, Are you seeing the trends or the attitudes about various types of tools that are able to drive, you know, to manage workload, to think about the realities of where business is heading now? What are the things on your mind? What are you seeing are on people’s minds from your chair?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:21:25 – 00:21:27]

Okay, it’s such a broad question.

Marc Raco [00:21:27 – 00:21:28]

It is.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:21:28 – 00:21:29]

And I love it.

Marc Raco [00:21:29 – 00:21:30]

Any part of it you want.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:21:30 – 00:22:05]

I love it. And thankfully I have a microphone in front of me. So, you’ve asked the question, here we go. So, I think one thing that comes to mind is the importance and value of picking the right practice management software. I think there, there, listen, I’m just gonna assume I, I picked one early on because it was so much easier and cleaner to look at than the other one that I’ve been working, working with at firms that I didn’t own, right? So I thought, oh, I like this one. I’ve stuck with it. I love it. I think there may be a lot of overlap in terms of the tools from what I use.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:22:05 – 00:22:33]

to what other people use, right? But I— but finding and using a practice management software is really, really valuable. I don’t know how people do it without. I now have in my practice management software, one of my matters is my personal, like, one of my clients allegedly is my personal nonprofit involvement. So, everything that’s a task that I need to do related to that is in my practice management software.

Marc Raco [00:22:33 – 00:22:33]

Cool.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:22:34 – 00:22:38]

My personal life has its own, Practice. It has its own matter.

Marc Raco [00:22:38 – 00:22:38]

That’s fun.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:22:39 – 00:22:52]

Right? And so when I call, you know, my kids are all grown now, but when they were younger, you know, I have to if I called the dentist or I was trying to, I would enter all those notes in my practice management software the same way I did as if it were a client.

Marc Raco [00:22:52 – 00:22:56]

This it’s somewhere between a concierge and a consigliere, right?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:22:56 – 00:23:36]

I am telling you, it it really and it took me probably five years to figure that out. And then I thought, well, why am I not doing this? Everything lives there, and um. And I think that’s one thing that I hear and I see people talking about. They’re wanting to know, what do people use? How do you use it? How do you troubleshoot this corner of your practice management software? Who uses it and how do you solve this? How do you work with this? ‘Cause nothing’s gonna be, nothing’s gonna work exactly the way every brain works best, right? Like, you’ve gotta find what pairs with you and adapt as you go along. So there is a lot of conversation about that, and I think appropriately so.

Marc Raco [00:23:37 – 00:23:37]

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:23:38 – 00:23:46]

And, and then staff and training, hiring, how to hire, how to train, how to support your staff.

Marc Raco [00:23:46 – 00:23:46]

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:23:47 – 00:23:48]

You don’t come in. How to grow your staff.

Marc Raco [00:23:49 – 00:24:27]

You don’t come in. When you go to law school, that’s not the focus of education there. It, it’s like someone who builds a, a, an incredible piece of software. That doesn’t mean they know how to run a company, but often they are the person who does. And, and if you don’t, hire people to help you run that company, right? You might run it into the ground. And I, I imagine the same thing has got, that’s why, um, it’s so common for attorneys and accountants to be known to maybe not be the best marketers in the world because that’s not the skills they entered with in most cases, right? And so, I’m sorry, continue, but I just illustrating you’re, you, you’re so on the nose with that.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:24:27 – 00:24:54]

No, it’s exactly, and it, it’s something that I’ve observed. It’s also, it’s something I’ve experienced. A couple years ago I had, uh, an employee, she still works for me, Very part-time. She had been full-time. She eventually decided that was not really the life she wanted to live anymore. So I was like, I don’t know how I kept you so long. But she now works for the school system and she still works for me part-time, but I needed a new person. I have struggled for the last couple of years.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:24:55 – 00:25:35]

And about 3 months ago, I started the process of hiring once again. I had multiple failed efforts on my part. I decided to change the way I hired and I also decided to change the way I trained and frankly to go back to the way I trained the person that I trained and worked with for so long. But in the interim, I’d had her training everybody. I thought, well, that makes sense. This is perfect. The person who’s doing the job can train the next person. But I run a very small, intimate firm, and it finally occurred to me after doing 2 people’s jobs for about a year and realizing longer days isn’t the answer, it’s not sustainable, I cannot do this.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:25:36 – 00:26:09]

And so, as I got to thinking about it, It really is time to try this again. I realized, oh, I need to train this person myself. So that’s what I’ve done. It’s been a much better— I mean, it’s been— it’s the good old days again. I’m actually working about 40 hours a week. It’s shocking and it’s delightful. And I really have thought— I just feel like I really do want— I just want to like get on the the soapbox and be like, no, really hire the person. Like, don’t give up.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:26:10 – 00:26:11]

But I— it—

Marc Raco [00:26:11 – 00:26:13]

Work smarter, not harder, right?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:26:13 – 00:26:34]

Exactly. Exactly. But it really did. You know, it can be very discouraging. And I think whether you’re in a large firm or you’re in a small firm, every person you hire is a really important person, a really important part of accomplishing your mission and accomplishing your goals for your clients and for the whole community you’re working with.

Marc Raco [00:26:34 – 00:26:39]

And if you hire well, they want to help you Right, right, right, right. That is their goal.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:26:39 – 00:27:07]

And not just hire well, but train well. And I can own that the last, my last efforts that were unsuccessful between my longtime full-time person and my most recent hire, I just didn’t realize how I wasn’t training them well. I thought, well, that makes sense, but it wasn’t really what worked. I come home every day and I’m like, did I tell you lately how much I love so-and-so? It was great, right? My husband’s like, yeah, you did. Told me 24 hours ago.

Marc Raco [00:27:08 – 00:27:09]

I, I, I’m definitely—

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:27:09 – 00:27:11]

but it is incredible. It is incredible. Completely amazing.

Marc Raco [00:27:12 – 00:27:12]

Someone great. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:27:13 – 00:27:23]

I, I just can’t say enough about the value of, uh, pushing through, pushing for yourself, pushing for your team. Um, and, uh, yeah, hire the person. Hire the person.

Marc Raco [00:27:24 – 00:28:17]

So let’s talk about adding, adding pieces to your operation. So one of them is the right people or the right person. Another is the technology that you deploy. Now, we talked about practice management software, but there’s other types of technology that people are using to enhance what they do, to speed up their processes, to be able to do more. AI as an example. So if you can talk both from your own practice, but also, you know, across your community through your lens, your observations, What are your thoughts about, um, the, the obvious challenges, but also perhaps the opportunity of AI automation, uh, even in mitigating risk as well as growing your practice, um, perhaps leveraging your time?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:28:18 – 00:29:06]

I see a lot of people asking just the simple question, how are you guys using AI? I’ve seen that question multiple times. And candidly, I love to see those answers because, you know, whether it’s kind of what you were describing, there’s other things too where I think, well, okay, maybe there I could tiptoe into that. Other— but as with everything, you see a full range of people’s comfort level with using any new tool. But AI is definitely a big one. Yeah, I see a lot of curiosity about it and and willingness to see what the opportunities are. And I read those things and I think, maybe I’ll retire before I really need to go there. I don’t know that I’m going to get away with that though, but we’ll see.

Marc Raco [00:29:07 – 00:29:23]

So let’s talk about risk management for a moment. And in terms of, so there’s this, you know, no matter you’re man, woman, or anywhere in between, I guess, you, you, you know, the same There are some risks that are gonna be the same. There’s cybersecurity risks, there’s succession planning risk.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:29:23 – 00:29:23]

Of course.

Marc Raco [00:29:23 – 00:29:59]

There’s, you know, that’s a hot topic. There’s, there’s obviously burnout risk, um, and, and many other types of, of risks. But there may be risks that present within a community of women attorneys that, that may not present the same way in, in a community of male attorneys. Is there any particular area of risk that is, you know, on the radar at this moment within your community that— or that you’re talking about that, that, that is grabbing the attention?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:30:00 – 00:31:41]

I, I really can’t say. I can’t say that I am seeing something that is, you know, sort of unique in the space. I, I am also probably the other group that’s not nearly as large, but the other community of lawyers that I know best are the other plaintiffs’ lawyers in Oklahoma, which we’ve got a lot of women lawyers in that community, but it is male-dominated. So I think what I’m seeing in both spaces in terms of conversations about those issues are similar. I don’t see a gender difference. And to that extent, I think maybe the closest, because I haven’t heard You know, obviously, maybe not obviously, but I’m not seeing, reading, or hearing people say, this is the risk I’m seeing these days for myself or someone else, right? But as someone who’s observing and thinking, that feels like that might be exposure or some risk of some kind, it would be, you know, people struggling with mental health issues, and the mental health issue is not the issue, it’s just the lack of support, right? And maybe not having access to that next step that’s gonna provide them with, the support that is gonna be beneficial for them, or even, I’ll share something personal. In that last, it was really 2 years ago that my longtime person, first name is Lisa, Lisa left, right? So over the next year, I’d hired 3 people that did not work out. So over this last calendar year, it was just me.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:31:42 – 00:32:59]

In February of this year, I was so maxed out, and I was— I’m in a practice area which it’s plaintiff’s personal injury. So my cases, man, they virtually always start with, you know, just an insurance company on their— on the other side. I’m being retained usually within, you know, days, weeks, or months of the initial collision happening because I almost Almost everything I do is roadway related, right? So virtually everything can get resolved within and before, but before and without a lawsuit, except the last 2 years, there’s just been a real uptick in cases that need to be filed. So what do I do? I, I get them filed by February of this last year. I thought, I cannot manage all these cases in litigation. I’m not, I’m not sleeping well at night. My stress level is through the roof. And I, I could see, and I said to myself, if I don’t do something different, like everything is fine, but if I don’t do something different, I will be looking at myself in the mirror in months from now, weeks from now, I don’t know.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:32:59 – 00:33:43]

And I’ll say, you saw this coming. You had an opportunity to do something different and you didn’t. But I’m not wired to do that. Did I mention I’m risk-averse? So I reached out to a colleague and did a very untrial lawyer thing and said, can we talk? I’ve got a litigation docket that has grown and needs to continue to grow outta the necessity of what’s right for these cases. But I don’t have a litigation team. Um, I don’t even, I barely have full-time staff. As it is, and certainly in February of this year, I did not have full-time staff. I felt that even though I was working the hours to keep everything where it needed to be, it was officially— I could see it, it was not sustainable.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:33:44 – 00:34:05]

I was able to reach out to a colleague, longtime friend and colleague, and we talked about the cases, and his firm picked up 5 cases that were either in or about to be in litigation. That was ex— and guess what happened in months, weeks after that? I thought, oh, I can hire someone now. Isn’t that interesting?

Marc Raco [00:34:05 – 00:34:06]

It is funny.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:34:06 – 00:34:07]

It was interesting.

Marc Raco [00:34:07 – 00:34:07]

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:34:08 – 00:34:38]

My brain could see for the first time, wait, wait, wait, no, this isn’t a foregone conclusion that I don’t know how to hire or train people. I can do it. I need to do it. I had the bandwidth to do it, and I was able to think about it in a new way. a way I hadn’t, it was in front of me the whole time. It was the way I started my firm. But for the first time in 2 years, I thought, oh, I’m just gonna train this person. And it has been, I’m, I’m 2 months in, I’m more than 2 months into it, and it has been a shockingly seamless process.

Marc Raco [00:34:39 – 00:34:39]

Hmm.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:34:39 – 00:35:06]

But I, but I had access, right? So I’m just saying, that’s just one example of where that was my experience. I’ve been in this community, the Oklahoma trial lawyers community, for, and frankly, I don’t know that I would’ve had to been in the community for a long time in order to get the help, but I certainly did know where to go for help. And I’m not sure everybody does.

Marc Raco [00:35:06 – 00:35:24]

So, you know, some of the, what I hear from that is managing risk, managing mental health, operational, being astute about what your operation needs, but also, the impact of having community around you that you can reach out to to solve a problem.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:35:25 – 00:35:25]

Colleagues.

Marc Raco [00:35:25 – 00:35:41]

Some 40,000 people and colleagues. It’s not just, it’s not just a sharing of advice. It, it’s a community of people that can rely on each other and call out and say, I’m not alone. And, and that’s so key.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:35:41 – 00:36:10]

I’ll say too, this was, this is one reason why I, you know, when people will sometimes join the group, oh, I’m, I’m just recently graduated law school. I’m happy to be in the Indiana group. I am interested in this area of practice. I’m working at this firm. What do you— I want to get to know people. If I see that question, I always tell people, join your state bar, join your county bar, and join any bar associations that have to do with your area of practice.

Marc Raco [00:36:10 – 00:36:10]

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:36:11 – 00:36:17]

That’s, that’s how and why I had someone to turn to 20 years into my career.

Marc Raco [00:36:17 – 00:36:18]

That’s community.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:36:18 – 00:36:53]

Yes. 20 years into my career, I had relationships without ever trying to, right? It’s just showing up, getting to know people, and knowing who’s the kind of person you can turn to for, to answer a question or get some help or, Or, or to become your litigation team. It has created, of course, the bandwidth for providing care and a level of representation that I’ve always taken pride in. But I also sleep at night again.

Marc Raco [00:36:54 – 00:37:18]

I love that. It’s great to have people that are there for you when you need it. Now, that makes me think of even, you know, here we are at the Alps Insurance Retreat for bar leaders and other leaders such as yourself. What does a company like ALPS mean to being able to succeed as an attorney, other than just being an insurance company there for you, but as a partner in your success?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:37:18 – 00:38:27]

One of the things that is so valuable about ALPS is their long-term investment in educating the legal community about risk, about how to prepare, about how to manage their firms, their cases in ways that will mitigate that risk and more effectively serve the communities that they’re serving. I say communities because, of course, I’m a plaintiff’s lawyer. I’m thinking people, but corporations too. Some people represent the businesses, and they— I think that’s one of the ways that they really set themselves apart because they’ve been investing in that for so long. And so I see that resource, that information bank that they make available, publicly. It’s not behind a paywall. But in addition to that, they’ve partnered with Girl Attorney and helped facilitate conversations that have to do with mental health, have to do with— and then just supporting women professionals. They facilitated an interview that we did with a woman author that had her— that’s a former attorney.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:38:28 – 00:38:38]

So just in really varied ways, they demonstrate that they’re investing in the community in, um, in all the ways that matter, right?

Marc Raco [00:38:38 – 00:38:48]

I think it’s great for an organization to not be, we’ll call it, we’ll call it a vendor, but instead a peer, right, to the success. All right.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:38:48 – 00:38:48]

Resource.

Marc Raco [00:38:48 – 00:39:21]

A resource, a partner in your success, right? So, uh, great. Thank you for that. Uh, okay. Lastly, From your chair, if you will, as both an attorney and as the founder and leader of a community, a sizable community, growing community, given the last word, if you will, given the chance to have the last word, given the chance to have one thought that you could shout through a megaphone, what right now would be your message across that community that you’d love to share?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:39:21 – 00:40:45]

I think the attack on the rule of law is something we can’t afford to ignore. I think it’s really— I want people, if there was something I would say, it would be to not look away. Look around, find the other people who are not looking away and who are looking around and looking for ways to stand up for and support communities who are suffering as a result of this breakdown in the rule of law, and there are many. It’s not one-dimensional in any sense. I think we really, we are living in not the first pivotal time in our country’s history by any stretch, but we are in a pivotal time, and there’s some real strains being pushed. stressful and it’s discouraging, it’s also by definition a huge opportunity, right? Like that stress, it’s an opportunity and it’s a space to step into and be one of those leaders. And we all have the opportunity to be the leader no one knows about for decades, but—

Marc Raco [00:40:45 – 00:40:45]

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:40:45 – 00:40:54]

But you know, you stepped in and you helped, right? And so, So that just, let’s not look away.

Marc Raco [00:40:55 – 00:40:57]

Are you one of those 200 women that showed up at the Capitol?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:40:58 – 00:40:58]

Oh yes, of course I was.

Marc Raco [00:40:59 – 00:41:00]

Yeah, but I mean, it’s—

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:41:00 – 00:41:01]

Thanks to other women who led.

Marc Raco [00:41:01 – 00:41:15]

That’s right, right. So, so those are, those are arguably 200 women that stood up in that moment for that one thing, right? All right, on the lighter side, final question. What is your favorite ice cream?

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:41:16 – 00:41:18]

Oh gosh, I’m gonna have to go with cookie dough.

Marc Raco [00:41:19 – 00:41:20]

Oh, good choice. Solid.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:41:20 – 00:41:26]

Love it. It’s, uh, it’s cookie, it’s ice cream. I love it. It’s all good.

Marc Raco [00:41:27 – 00:41:28]

It’s 2 treats in one.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:41:28 – 00:41:29]

Yes, exactly.

Marc Raco [00:41:29 – 00:41:30]

Just like you.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:41:30 – 00:41:31]

Thank you.

Marc Raco [00:41:32 – 00:41:33]

Thank you so much.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:41:33 – 00:42:00]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time, um, and your willingness to tell so many people’s stories. It’s really important that We get to hear from one another so that we know we’re not alone and to get perspectives of other people. We all are better and stronger and more equipped to lead when we get to hear each other’s stories. So thank you.

Marc Raco [00:42:01 – 00:42:03]

Mic drop. Oh, right there.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:42:03 – 00:42:03]

Thank you so much.

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