Insights from the 2026 ALPS Bar Leaders Retreat

Episode Notes

Transcript

Chris Newbold [00:00:00 – 00:00:43]

Hi, I’m Chris Newbold, Chief Operating Officer of Alps Insurance, and we just concluded the Alps Bar Leaders Retreat, which was an active exchange of ideas of us providing them interesting perspective as bar leaders, but also as part of this series, them providing us the ideas that give us inspiration for where we ultimately go, uh, as a, as a company and in our service to new lawyers and solo practitioners. We really hope that you take some of the highlights of these interviews, some of the poignant observations, some of the hot takes that they have, because really what we’re all focused on is the advancement of the profession. And the best way that we do that is by the active, open exchange of ideas, which I think you’re going to enjoy in the minutes to come.

Marc Raco [00:00:47 – 00:00:53]

What is the one piece of advice that you would give to A new solo?

Rachel Okun [00:00:55 – 00:01:34]

I would say get involved with your bar association and get involved with leadership. So, you know, I would’ve not known this when I started. I got involved with leadership sort of by accident just ’cause I thought it was fun and I, I just liked the bar association. I liked getting together with people, but what I didn’t realize was that it was actually a way to build my business. So I didn’t do it for that purpose, but the more that you get to know people, the more you get out in your community, the business comes. And so I didn’t go with traditional marketing or anything like that. I just sort of built my business organically through relationships in my community, but also with other lawyers. And it all sort of happened organically because of those relationships I built.

Marc Raco [00:01:34 – 00:01:44]

The key is to not get involved specifically to generate business. The key is to get involved and knowing that it’s likely business will come, right?

Rachel Okun [00:01:44 – 00:01:49]

Yeah. It’s, it’s not for that purpose, but it’s just, you build relationships and it’s so meaningful and it’s so much fun.

Marc Raco [00:01:49 – 00:01:50]

Sure.

Rachel Okun [00:01:50 – 00:01:53]

I, I love doing it. So I would recommend it to anybody.

Marc Raco [00:01:54 – 00:03:00]

You know, as you talk about law schools, you, part of what you’re talking about is paving the way for the next generation of lawyers to fill the gap of a shortage of lawyers. And also, you know, the future, they have to come into an industry that looks like one they want to be in. So how do you think about that in terms of Because mental health is part of serving how good an attorney is and how well they’re doing their job and capably they’re doing the job. It’s a human thing. It also has to do with retention, retaining lawyers that are good and established and knowledgeable so they don’t move on because they just don’t want to do it anymore, can’t do it anymore. And then there’s the getting the new blood in. So how are you thinking about straddling those different worlds, knowing that the new generation coming in may be looking at it through a little different of lens because of the nature of how their generation thinks versus an older generation?

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:03:01 – 00:03:59]

And I think that that is kind of the puzzle that all professions probably have right now. I think with technology, many professions have changed dramatically. And I also think with each coming generation, there are little nuances. But I feel like after COVID, we had big nuances. There were big changes in how we work. Remote work became a huge possibility for many people, and many took advantage of it. And like that remote working, but remote working also takes you out of certain human contact, maybe on a daily basis, and it changes how you work. So it’s trying to look at that and say, you know, that’s okay, but how do we still cultivate a personal relationship with you and a connection so that we can make sure that we’re addressing the needs that you do have? within our profession.

Susan Bradford Tarley [00:04:00 – 00:04:33]

And, you know, sometimes we look at mentors and mentors have to have an engagement. You know, you have teachers who taught you and there was not the connection, but then you have somebody who really mattered in your life and you consider them a mentor. You go back constantly to things that they told you, and oftentimes it wasn’t the task that they were teaching you. They were teaching you maybe how to be a good person. or they were teaching you something about life in general. And I think that’s the connection we have to have with the younger people in our profession so we know how to address it.

Marc Raco [00:04:34 – 00:05:29]

For your members and future members of the State Bar who, who are looking for the guidance of keeping their industry alive. And, you know, because the thing is, you know, let’s say you’re an attorney in Wyoming, there’ll be a need for attorneys in Wyoming no matter how many of them there are. The question is, is The fewer attorneys there are, the more challenging it becomes in a way, because there’s more people trying to have you handle their case and your operation becomes more challenging to handle. And that’s, I would imagine. So there isn’t— I would think there would be an interest in the next generation, you know, keeping the, keeping the field alive. How can the bar help there be a successful continuation of this story going forward? with the next generation having an interest and being excited about this profession? You recognize the problem. What’s the plan?

Alison Gee [00:05:30 – 00:05:47]

Right. And so, you know, if it’s AI, great, we’ll continue to provide that training. I think also guardrails are helpful, right? We don’t want our folks to go into court and get yelled at by the judge because they didn’t get rid of the hallucinations. And that’s a real struggle.

Marc Raco [00:05:47 – 00:05:47]

Yeah.

Alison Gee [00:05:48 – 00:05:57]

Unless you’re using Westlaw or Lexis, something that’s got guardrails on the case law. AI is very difficult to do legal research with.

Marc Raco [00:05:57 – 00:06:37]

So I see that. You know, I think about how I use AI in my own role, and a lot of times I use it more like, could I have thought this through? I sure could. I have the capability. But the truth is, for me, using the AI to think it through saved me such enormous time. And then based on what I get, I can make sort of the final determination of what from that data what’s useful, right? Am I using as much critical thinking? I would say probably I’m not. But my rationalization to myself, at least, is I could not possibly accomplish the scope of my job if I did not have this tool at this point.

Alison Gee [00:06:37 – 00:06:37]

Sure.

Marc Raco [00:06:38 – 00:06:53]

The expectations of me are high enough where the only way I can achieve it is that way. How do you fight the realities, or the expectations, at least, of what the perception of reality is, Yeah, I think that—

Alison Gee [00:06:54 – 00:08:05]

I think AI is a great place to— a lot of times what I’ll do is like, give me an example of this thing that I’m looking for, right? Because in my varied practice, sometimes I have to draft something I’ve never had to draft before, right? So AI, give me an example of what you think this would look like. And then I go back and rewrite the draft. But I have to make sure that I’m catching all the nuances, right, about what is the law in this area? Is Is it supported by case law? If there’s case law cited, have I checked it all? And those are the things that if you’re newer in your practice, you may or may not pick up on. So that’s why, you know, a lot of the young attorneys coming out of law school are opening their own practices in Wyoming, and it’s brave, it’s commendable, but there’s a lot of struggle that I worry that they haven’t recognized yet. And so I would encourage them to Keep in touch with the State Bar, look at the resources we have available, go to our conventions, you know, network with mentors who are— maybe they, the older attorneys, could learn from the younger and vice versa, because I think that there’s some knowledge you just gain by being in the trenches.

Mark Bassingthwaighte [00:08:06 – 00:09:23]

There’s also, I guess, a surprise that I have found over the years just sitting in the chair that I sit in, Lots of lawyers, particularly in the solo space, find themselves trapped because they are not financially in a position to retire. And so it becomes this catch-22. And so I, again, so what am I concerned about? It’s wellness issues, it’s fair succession plan, et cetera. I think in the solo space, perception right now is, how do I stay in the game? But a lot of them are also frightened and overwhelmed because they have no clue what this AI stuff is about. I personally don’t believe AI is going to take lawyers out. I think it’s a tremendous opportunity for lawyers that learn how to use it and find ways to create efficiencies, et cetera. What it will do is take out those lawyers that refuse to do anything with it, about it, you know what I mean? It’s so— it’s those that adapt and change will stay relevant. Those that don’t will not succeed.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:09:23 – 00:10:48]

You know what I am seeing in the community? What’s interesting is, you know, many times people do post, uh, a question or an inquiry or concern with their identity known, right? But, you know, These groups also now, Facebook, by the magic of Facebook, they now allow people to post anonymously. I will say I have seen an uptick of posts from anonymous members. Particularly, I’ve seen a lot of posts about, from young, or maybe not young in age, but newer attorneys who are struggling with a lack of education and in the context of mentorship. I’m seeing that across the board. And is it all day, every day? No, but it’s at least, it’s at least weekly I’m seeing that, uh, somewhere in the community. And that it is an actual uptick I’m noticing. Um, and then other than that, in general, some— and by the way, plenty of women, the, the majority of women attorneys, I think, are Just, you know, having the same struggles anybody does regardless of gender or profession or whatever. But they’re, they’re doing well and they’re, they’re seeing success and they are enjoying their work and they’re being challenged.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:10:49 – 00:11:30]

That’s great. But when you are hearing people, which is not the majority, but when I’m hearing people express concern, it again, it’s younger attorneys who are struggling with finding mentorship, kind of asking like, is this normal to be given this many cases? And I’m really struggling to get time with somebody who’s going to give me more direction. And then the other thing is just feeling really burned out. I’m tired. I’m thinking I may be done with this. I think I may need to turn the corner on this profession. But I want to be clear, this isn’t the overall tone or the majority, but this is the These are the concerns as expressed. That’s what I’m mostly seeing.

John Mudd [00:11:30 – 00:12:43]

I think there’s, and a sense that at least among some, not everybody, but among some people that sort of the judiciary’s under attack, the profession’s under attack. I’ve got this AI thing coming in. I mean, again, it’s the same, you know, sort of triumvirate of stuff happening. I was involved with, I was on the board of the Institute for Wellbeing and Law, which was sort of an offshoot of the large practice, a large study and task force on wellbeing many, I guess, many years ago now, probably about 10 years ago. I think that one of the things that happened is there was a lot of focus that I was seeing in the profession on those issues, particularly coming off that task force report. This would’ve been 2018, 2019. Then we had the pandemic and sort of all of the focus went to How are we going to keep courts open? How are we going to keep people healthy? Remote work became a huge, you know, development for firms. And I think it could have been, and maybe it was in some ways, a real good thing for well-being.

John Mudd [00:12:43 – 00:13:37]

But then it created all sort of tension of people not being in the office, a loss of sort of collaborative work. We went through that at the bar where we were all out of the office for a long time. So, you know, I think nationally, I hate to say this, but I think a little bit of the spotlight went off of some of those issues in terms of focus at the, at the bar level, or maybe even at the national level. And then you sort of had all this stuff going on with the rule of law that’s sort of taken precedence. So I worry a little bit that we’re losing sight on some of that stuff because I don’t think the statistics have gotten any better. We see with our LAP program, um, that’s gotten busier over the last couple of years. Um, so that’s not slowing down on the lawyer assistance end of things. If anything, I think we’re seeing an uptick in that.

John Mudd [00:13:37 – 00:13:59]

We’re seeing an uptick in discipline cases in Montana, um, and trying to just keep up with that through our Office of Discipline Counsel. So, you know, I, I don’t have a I don’t have a crystal ball to tell you where it’s going, but I do have a sense from what I’m seeing that we’re not making the progress that maybe we hope to make in the years after that, uh, the task force.

Kevin Maxim [00:14:00 – 00:14:57]

I do believe that law firms are a target. Money flows through there, sensitive information flows through there. So yes, we are constantly under attack from hacking attempts. Uh, that’s just the reality of what we do. And so Those of us who manage law firms need to keep up with what best practices are and educate our young people about these threats. I think as I see my own young people and the many apps that they have and the comfort that they have with their phones and the applications that they’re accessing, those we need to be a little bit more circumspect when we’re in a law firm environment. I think. I’m going to bring it back to AI, that young people are much more comfortable with, uh, having computer assistance in how they write and how they, uh, form articles and things like that.

Marc Raco [00:14:57 – 00:14:58]

It’s the world they know.

Kevin Maxim [00:14:58 – 00:16:12]

It is. And so there is a little bit of a transition between, uh, those older, older members of the bar who are much more used to organically writing things. And now we’re working with, and our future is with these young people who are much more comfortable with computer-aided writing and editing. And so we need to work together to find the best solution there and how best to serve our clients. And AI may be a very important part of that. I think it gets back to all of us, all ages, no matter how many years we’ve been practicing, continuing legal education, particularly in the realm of technology, is going to be vital for a law firm to serve their clients well and compete with other providers out there. Yeah, I think our profession is unique in that, maybe not unique, we’re part of a handful of professions where those communications between client and professional are sacrosanct and need to be protected as such. And so I’m curious about AI and large language models.

Kevin Maxim [00:16:13 – 00:17:07]

Where are they drawing their information about the legal world from? If there is someone who accidentally uploads attorney-client communications, for instance, into an AI database, there are going to be ramifications to that. And I suspect it’s happening as we speak. Right. So there needs to be an effort to wall off any information that a law firm has that they are going to later process through some AI support for feedback and output and making sure that no one else in the world has access to that data and that information. I hope that’s what these providers are thinking about as well to protect us. But we need to be careful about that and trust but verify.

Marc Raco [00:17:08 – 00:17:23]

What do firms need to be thinking about? What do solos need to be thinking about other than cybersecurity, managing risk? What is on the agenda in the next 1 to 5 years of how they should be thinking about how they’re going to effectively run their practice?

Rachel Okun [00:17:24 – 00:17:54]

Using AI in their practice somehow to benefit them and help them better manage their practice and also helping them with legal research. I also think if they can find ways to serve underserved areas, and that doesn’t mean places that can’t afford attorneys, I just like rural areas ’cause we have, as we, one of the topics, you know, rural deserts, Maine has ’em especially up north.

Susan Carns Curtiss [00:17:55 – 00:18:11]

If you can find ways in your practice to help those people and using AI, using all these tools, you’re, you’re going to actually have plenty of work to do if you can reach them and help them.