EP 919- Raising the Bar by Improving “the Bar” with Megan Phillips Part Two

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Welcome back to another episode of Heals in the Courtroom. I’m Elizabeth McNulty, and I’m joined by Liz Lenivy and Megan Phillips, and we are picking up on part two of our conversation with Megan. You’ve touched on some of the work that you’ve led, like the laectation rooms and courthouses and modernizing certain policies so that women can reenter the practice of law. That’s a good way to say it. And outside of just being a woman, what motivates you to put so much power behind these initiatives?

Megan Phillips:

I’ve said this in Leadership Academy meetings before. I think I don’t know why I am the way I am. I honestly don’t know. I just always wanted to advance women’s issues and see them recognized for their excellence and potential and eliminate barriers. And when I joined the Missouri Bar in WLA when I first moved to St. Louis, and especially when I achieved leadership positions in those bodies, I realized how small our legal community is and how easy it is actually to move the needle on anything that’s really important to you. If you just choose to set aside the time and roll up your sleeves and do the work. Most of us are grinding and busy and just trying to stay afloat and that’s fine. But the reason those initiatives passed is because when I was chair of the Joint Commission on Women in the Profession, just friends of mine, members of WLA, people I knew, we’d be having a conversation at a social event or something and someone would say … One of my colleagues at the Court of Appeals was pumping in a closet, in a broom closet.

And that happens all over the place. I know this. This is not news to any of you out there. I think there are a lot of women who are still pumping in their cars or in their public bathrooms or in a broom closet or somewhere equally inappropriate. And it was just a conversation I had with someone like, “Oh my gosh, I’m pumping in a broom closet and there are roaches and can’t we do better?” And so the commission partnered with the Women’s Foundation at the time and did some research. And I mean, the Fair Labor Standards Act and the Affordable Care Act, there are provisions for private employers over 50 that they have to provide lactation accommodation for their employees. Why don’t we have that? And so we just did some research, developed a proposal, took it to the Supreme Court. Our liaison at the time was Judge Laura Denver Stith.

And the Supreme Court was always very enthusiastic and supportive of the commission’s initiatives. And so we just took this to them and said, “This is a problem. Let’s fix it. ” And they’re like, “Yeah, let’s fix that. We didn’t know. ” And they did it. And it was the same thing with the reactivation rule. Past President Heather Bubb came to me and told me how hard it was for her to reactivate her law license after she had taken a few years off to have kids because at the time reactivation was treated as the same way as someone who was having their license reinstituted after disciplinary proceedings. And so it was a very onerous process that was completely unnecessary for someone who took voluntary leave for a while. And we approached the Supreme Court and OCDC and just said, “This is too hard. It doesn’t need to be this way.” You had to file a petition with the Supreme Court and now you just click and fill out a form and do your CLE and it’s done.

And so it was just our colleagues identifying a problem and me being in a position and having a platform to contact the right people and spend a few hours on the phone or on email to see if we could get it fixed. And we can all do that. I guess that’s my message is we’re all busy and we see problems and expect somebody else to fix it. And the great thing about being in bar leadership or having this platform is you see something, you say something, you roll up your sleeves and call the right people, figure out where the levers are and then move them.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

It’s so funny, but also frustrating because the number of very well-meaning people I’ve met who have said in all earnestness, “Oh, I didn’t know that was a problem.” I didn’t realize that … We talked about one time this issue of a woman having an idea in a meeting and everyone’s shutting it down and then a man repeats it and then suddenly it’s, “Oh my God, Bill over there’s brilliant. Did you come up with it? ” And Susan’s in the corner beating her head against the table. 35 minutes. And we talked about that one time and I heard a man go, “You know, I guess I never thought about it that way.” And I’m like, “How many decades have you been on this earth, sir?” But it’s exactly what you’ve said of sometimes it’s not until the problem is brought forward. And then in my experience, overwhelmingly, people, when you come to them with a problem and say, “Hey, not only do we have a problem, I got a solution for it.

” People are most of the time willing to get on board. And it sounds like the Supreme Court was great about that. And Judge Stith, who I’m not surprised, was

Megan Phillips:

Wonderful about that. And Judge Russell and Judge Brecken, they’ve always been great. And you’re right. I think, I mean, obviously there are people who start from a position of no, no matter whatever the issue is. That was

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Going to be my question.

Megan Phillips:

And it’s finding the people who like me, who have to be talked out of something, why not start from a position of why not instead of, well, why? Why should we change things? Getting back to your thing about being around a table and the woman saying something and then five minutes later, I’ve been to trainings. I’m sure you all have … There are trainings now for how you can gently interrupt that, call it out. I mean, not just if you’re a woman, you see it happen, but if you’re an ally and if you recognize that happening, there’s a gentle way to say, “Oh yes, that’s what Susan said five minutes ago.” You agree with Susan. Kind of give her some credit for it. But I’m glad we’re talking about that. I don’t think it was even talked about 10 years ago.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

No, it’s the concept of heating.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yes.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

That’s the word for it.

Megan Phillips:

I didn’t know that. I

Elizabeth McNulty:

Love that. I have an older brother’s mansplaining. Four years older than me. Okay. And he did it my entire life. It’s nothing new to me. But it just became like a joke, honestly, because I said that a few minutes ago, he’s just repeating me like, “Oh, okay.” It

Megan Phillips:

Makes you want to just put your phone on record and set it on the table because you just can roll back the record there.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Carry a court reporter around in your backpack at all times. I had that happen to me in a meeting a couple of years ago and I will not forget because a male colleague immediately stepped up and said, “Hey, so she just said that exact same sentence.” Lavo. This was pre- COVID that this, this is how long ago it was. And I still remember it and I doubt that colleague remembers that he made that comment, but I certainly remember it.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Megan, I think you’ve mentioned this, maybe I’ve just heard it from the times I’ve heard you speak. You’ve been involved in a lot of different kind of initiatives, whether it be with the Joint Commission or WLA where you’ve found problems by gathering data on them. How does that process even begin? I would’ve never have thought to do that, but how do you even begin to seek out problems by sending out surveys to lawyers?

Megan Phillips:

We all know that we know, right? You just know innately what the problems are, but some people don’t believe you until you provide empirical data. And so I think the women’s professional community, not just lawyers, we’ve been bending over backwards trying to gather evidence to prove our point for decades now because otherwise we’re not believed. I think that’s changing. I think we have critical mass and just anecdotal evidence, so to speak, that people are recognizing the issues. But since the ’90s, I think, well, even probably since the ’80s in the Women Lawyers Community, the National Association of Women Lawyers, the ABA Commission on Women, different entities have been gathering data to show that there is a problem. And actually, the National Association for Women Lawyers Nowl does an annual workplace survey. They’ve been doing it for a couple of decades now, but every year they send a survey to women in large law firms to collect, and they send it to the firms themselves to collect who voluntarily provide their data, their matrix, their matrices on the promotion of women and the retention and all sorts of workplace policies.

And actually the survey that we did that WLA did in 2004 or five was kind of a condensed version of the survey that NOL has been doing for a really long time. And I don’t know, we’ve been trying to gather data just to kind of prove the point and support the stories that women have been telling individually for decades, right? I mean, so data has to be part of it and it is a good tool for tracking progress, right? The Missouri Bar and the Missouri Supreme Court, for example, when you get your attorney enrollment form and there’s some demographic checkboxes, those didn’t exist until I think 2013. So we couldn’t even count the number of women lawyers in Missouri perfectly until then. And it’s important to have a baseline to assess progress or lack thereof. And so for example, in the 1990s, women were about 47% of law students.

That’s a pretty good number. They were only 9% of women on the Missouri Bar Board of Governors. There were only two presidents of the Missouri Bar who were women prior to the year 2000. It is important, I think, to collect statistics to show where we are, how far we’ve gone, where we want to go. It has to be part of the pitch, part of the argument, but I really want everyone to just listen to women’s stories and believe women when they say they have this issue or that issue. Let’s just believe them and they’re all saying the same thing. I mean, how much data do we need at the end of the day?

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah, I could see how it’s definitely useful, but anecdotally it should be just as useful without having to see the actual numbers behind what we’ve been screaming for years. The one that stood out to me was quantifying women as first chairs in trials. I don’t know how long ago that was, but have you seen that trend change throughout?

Megan Phillips:

And I’m probably not the right person to speak on that. So the ABA Commission on Women did a study using data from the Northern District of Illinois in Chicago. The ABA is based in Illinois. So they pulled statistics on women and first chair positions from cases in the Northern District of Illinois. And so the ABA did that study. And when I was chair of the Joint Commission on Women in the profession, my co-chair was Karen Glickstein of Kansas City. She was at Polsinelli at the time. And that was really interesting to her because she was a trial lawyer. And so she wanted the commission in Missouri to kind of do a similar version of that study. And so we had some interns get on CaseNet and other public records and gather some of that data. And we sent it to a professor at UMKC to kind of crunch the numbers and come up with a report for us.

And then COVID happened and everything just kind of ground to a halt. And I wish I could give you an update on that because a commission changed hands. And I’m not sure if that ever got finished. But Stephanie Won and Amy Bender Levy, if you’re listening to this, the current commission, maybe you need to talk to Karen Glickstein and get back on that report. We’re going to need some updated info.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

And it almost feels like sometimes when you see a problem and you want to be able, like you said, to gather the data on it just to prove the thing that we all know, but sometimes that comes with having to explain why it’s important and whoever the powers may be, getting them to recognize why this matters. And I feel like that’s an especially important topic in today’s climate where it seems like gathering information on anyone who’s different. So if you’re a woman, if you’re a person of color, if you’re LGBTQ, if you’re an immigrant, whatever, it seems like there’s a real pushback on that now, but this information is important. So I want to know from your perspective, if I’m someone who wants to gather this data and I need to figure out what is the best way to present it for why this matters, whether it makes us better attorneys or better people or whatever, what do I tell the powers that be about why this is worthy of us investing our time and our resources and energy into?

Megan Phillips:

I’m going to flip that a little bit because while data is important for tracking purposes, I think personal stories, those are what’s most compelling to the person you’re trying to influence. And so like with our projects, with the commission and with the lactation accommodation project and with the reactivation rule, we couldn’t gather statistics on those issues. They just came to us anecdotally from friends and colleagues. But what we did do is I emailed people who emailed people, who emailed people. And I said, “If you have an experience about this, write a testimonial.” And then we compiled just short paragraphs, just testimonials of personal experiences. I mean, when you watch the news or you read something, do you really retain the numbers in the statistics or do you remember the personal stories that spoke to you and that really just moved your heart? That’s why people do things.

And so while the data is important, it is the personal stories that make you get up and move. And so that was part of our effort. And that was an important part and probably why we succeeded at those projects is because we had personal stories of our colleagues, people we knew and worked with saying, “I had to pump in a supply closet with roaches.” Or, “It took me a year and a half to reactivate my law license because I had to file a petition and go jump through all these hoops and I was losing money and there was absolutely no reason for this because I hadn’t been suspended. I was just raising kids and person after person after person.” And you read that and you see a pattern and you put yourself in the shoes of the people providing those testimonials and you’re moved to act.

So I think that’s more powerful than statistics. Statistics are important. I think we do need to track the data for various reasons, but it’s personal stories who move at the end of the day, I think, who move the needle.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

You’re talking to trial lawyers. So personal stories are bread and butter because that’s the thing. I think about that med malpine, for example. Right. You teach the medicine as best you can, but ultimately, what’s the jury retaining at the end of the day? Their perception of your client and perception of your experts and did they seem believable and likable and is it a story that matters to them? Do they feel compelled to do something for you because you have reached them in that way? So I hear you 100%.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I feel like you’ve spent so many years focusing on mentorship, your work with CASA and Missouri Girls State. Why do you think that kind of work is important? Because I feel like it’s something that we don’t touch on a whole lot is getting to girls, young women early. We kind of focus on once you’re in law school, we’ll help support you, but I feel like that might be somewhat overlooked as other women in the profession. So what made you kind of want to do that?

Megan Phillips:

Let me rewind a little bit because we talked about mentorship early and I don’t think I answered your question, but as we, the Women Lawyers Association, the MissouriBar, BAMSO, I mean, there’s so many entities who try to have structured mentorship programs where you get matched with somebody and then you’re supposed to go to coffee or have phone calls or whatever. And that doesn’t always work out because it works better when it’s organic, right? And I think women are really good at that. I think because we have good soft skills and we really want to support one another. And so I think our ability to foster organic mentorships and sponsorships is really strong and that is important. In terms of like reaching back into younger generations, I’ll give you just an anecdote. When I was president of the bar, my first official visit to a bar association was in Keatsville, Missouri, the Ninth Circuit Bar Association.

And that’s up in North Central, west-ish Missouri, somewhere between Columbia and St. Joe. Anyway, and we were talking about legal deserts and how there just aren’t enough lawyers practicing in small rural communities. And I was sitting at a table with some lawyers and the wife of one lawyer was a high school guidance counselor. And she said, “Well, my students don’t know what the law is or the legal system. If they’ve had any interaction with the law, it’s been negative and they can’t possibly imagine being a lawyer or having anything to do. They just don’t know anything about it. ” I mean, that’s not their fault. We have to reach into that pipeline and bring them in at a young age and show them the possibilities, show them what they’re capable of, what their future might look like. I mean, we have to grow that young and early from the roots of their communities.

And working with Girls State was a project of the Leadership Academy. When we took that on, Missouri Boys State participants were getting college credit for their participation, but the girls’ program wasn’t accredited. And we were like, “What?” And so we revamped the curriculum and taught it, my Leadership Academy class and the girls got credit and they had an incredible experience. And I was just hooked at that point and went back to teach for the next eight years and just saw the potential of these young women. I mean, they were ambitious and energetic and so smart. And they were there because they were good students and high potential, but most of them didn’t know anything about the law or public service or the legal system and to just open their eyes to the possibilities for their future like my professors did for me like, “Oh, I could do this and that sounds like it’d be really cool.” It was so rewarding.

In fact, several years later, I was speaking at a symposium in Columbia and a woman came up to me and said, “I was in your class at Girl State and now I’m a lawyer.” And it just gave me goosebumps. It still gives me goosebumps. So we have so much influence, all of us around this table and anyone listening, I mean, we have so much influence to affect the future and create a ripple effect with everything we’re doing now and the people we’re bringing into it for the future. I mean, it’s an endless possibility. Why would we not seize it?

Elizabeth McNulty:

That’s just so really remarkable that you have been able to influence, I’m sure, countless women who entered the profession. I feel like the opportunities to get involved locally with, like I talked about, other women in our profession are pretty readily available. But if someone’s listening to this and would like to get involved with younger students that might be interested in becoming lawyers or don’t know about it, how do you even begin that process?

Megan Phillips:

There are a lot of resources for law students to plug into WLA or the ABA or BAMSO or things like that, but it’s a little more challenging for high school students. I will say the MissouriBar has an entire department dedicated to civics education and educational outreach. And for high school students who might be interested in a career in the law or public service or government, just generally, the bar has all sorts of programs and competitions for high school students. It’s kind of like a moot court thing, show me the constitution, especially if you’re on a debate team or involved in a structured activity like that. But we have resources for teachers, K through 12. And I think particularly for teachers who are teaching government and civics at the high school level, the bar has tons of resources. And man, anyone who called me and said, “Would you come to my classroom and talk about the law?” I mean, I think wouldn’t anyone who received that call just be like, “Sure, when?

How long can I stay?” I mean, don’t we all want to do that? It’s so fun. If you’re ever feeling burned out, having a shitty workday and you need a shot in the arm, go volunteer at a high school and talk about the law. Even if you think you only know about your little niche area and you can’t speak about search and seizure, that’s okay. Just go and talk about the law and how it works and what judges do and what lawyers do and what they don’t do. And that’s how we get people interested.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

For the last several years now, because Mary Simon is a Coriazu grad and she’s very close with one of the teachers there, she always brings her law and government class, I

Elizabeth McNulty:

Think is

Elizabeth Lenivy:

What it’s called. She always brings students in and we always try to make sure there’s at least a couple of us, the female lawyers here available to talk. And I’m always so amazed at some of the questions they come up with. They’re very insightful. They are paying attention. They’re interested. And of course, I’m always heading into it like, “Oh, I’m so busy. I don’t have time for this today and why did I sign up for this? Come on. ” And then I leave it like, “Oh,

Megan Phillips:

It’s a buzz.” I

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Know.

Megan Phillips:

I spoke at a charter school in the city during my term as president. I had middle school and high school kids, no small school. And man, some of the questions were first year towards students. Well, what if all sorts of things about intervening events and it was crazy. They’re really smart and just getting them interested and just getting them curious is an accomplishment, but we got to keep doing that. We got to do it more.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. And it’s always a great reminder of what a privilege it is to be a lawyer, which is so easy to forget and how hard you at some point worked to be a lawyer to become one. So I think it’s always a really good reminder that I often need because this job’s hard.

Megan Phillips:

So I would challenge anyone just feeling depressed about the state of the world to, especially if you have kids, call their teacher or call the principal or call the high school in your local district and just say, “Hey, I’m a lawyer and I want to come talk about civics and the constitution and the court system. Does your social studies teacher need a break? Let me just come and relieve him or her for a couple of class periods and volunteer your time and talk about what we do. ” And that’s doing something, that’s doing something.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

So much of this conversation I feel like is now that we’re, especially in terms of talking to students and trying to get out there and sort of create this maybe the pipeline to law school, but that also sort of requires, I think a lot of, it’s leadership. Whether or not you recognize it, going into a classroom is being a leader in your community in a way. And I want to know, in your opinion, what does leadership ultimately look like to you, especially in spaces, the spaces that women have been historically excluded from?

Megan Phillips:

I think it looks different for different leaders. And I’ve been fortunate to be around a lot of different leaders, both in WLA and the Missouri Bar and just even the court system. I mean, judges are leaders as well. And so I don’t think there’s one universal profile of a leader. I think you have to be authentic and kind of true to your own style. For me personally, I rely on being fearless. I was a diver when I was a kid. And so being able to just fling yourself off a board and not be afraid of crashing and having bruises, who knew that was going to be a life lesson?

Elizabeth Lenivy:

It’s literally throwing yourself out there.

Megan Phillips:

Right, right. And so you learn that it doesn’t kill you, right? It might be uncomfortable, just do it. And so for me, that I’ve always tried to be the person who’s not afraid to say the thing in the room that a lot of people might be thinking, but might not feel comfortable saying, and hopefully say it tactfully, but also challenging the status quo or presumption. So for me, being fearless and just not afraid to crash has been part of it. But then also at the same time, being able to build consensus and reach across aisles, quote unquote, a lot of us were probably all the same, the types where in high school and in college, we did all the activities. You weren’t just an athlete or a drama geek or a cheerleader, you did all the things. And so you had different spokes on your wheel of friends.

And that comes in really handy when you need to bring everybody together and build consensus when people have different interests or pinch points around a given issue. So I think being able to listen, I’m not a great listener sometimes. I recognize that about myself, but being able to hopefully listen, empathize, understand somebody else’s position, yet still advocate for what you, for the direction you believe is the right one. Those are all qualities and call myself humble. I don’t think anybody I know would call me humble, but being willing to be wrong, I’m not always right. Sometimes I’m wrong and I get shot down and that’s fine too. But I’ve met other leaders who have completely different leadership styles. They’re more quiet or just have different approaches. And I think it’s all legitimate. You have to figure out what’s comfortable for you and then just optimize your own skillset.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I think being authentic is always kind of the best way to go and that stays true for leadership. I think as lawyers, we’re almost all naturally leaders. And so I think that that’s really good advice. I find you to be just really incredibly inspiring just the way that you’ve used your powers as a lawyer to be an advocate in a way that’s a lot different than we see ourselves as advocates, I think, just for the general good instead of just on more of a client basis is what we do. And so I feel like you’re very empowering to the next generation of women lawyers. And what would you want them/us, I guess, to know about power, progress, and persistence?

Megan Phillips:

That’s a lot of pressure. It’s a big question. It’s a big question. Well, as I said before, for the next generation, don’t take for granted the relative equality that you’ve experienced in school so far because it really still is a different world, I think, on the other side of the tassel. And ground can be lost if we don’t hold onto it. I think we have come to understand that on a lot of different levels. And there’s more work to be done and there are a lot of different ways to do it. As I was saying, some will do their part and move the needle by just going to work and being excellent and rising through the ranks and changing a culture and not overnight or in a way that’s strident or unwelcome, but it’s gradual. Again, we’re doing this at kind of a glacial place.

Some, as I said, will do it by voting with your feet and just leaving a workplace that refuses to evolve. And some will do it as I have done it through volunteer work and advocacy. I mean, I’ve worked in the courts for 18 years. And so it’s funny how my day job, what I get paid for is to be completely neutral and impartial. And I don’t get to say what I think about a lot of things ever, but I’ve found through the volunteer work that I’ve done is where I kind of dump and pour my passions and fearlessness and opinions and try to advance things. I feel like it’s been easy to do that in a volunteer capacity because not everybody wants to be a volunteer and spend the time that I have in a volunteer capacity, which is why it has such high potential for people who want to do the work to use those opportunities as a platform for change because not everybody wants to do it and there’s a lot to be done.

And yeah, we all have a role to play. We have to figure out what works for each one of us, but don’t assume you can stay on the sidelines and let other people do the work. I think we’ve learned also what happens when you don’t use your voice. If you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Okay. So we have some questions, sort of callbacks to prior episodes we’ve done. And I feel like while you’re here, it would be just such a missed opportunity to not get your thoughts on this. You got opinions, you’re ready to share if we’ve learned anything about you over this discussion. So I want to call back to season four, episode four on burnout. Because I feel like that is something lawyers talk about all the time. And we all recognize it’s a problem and we all recognize we suffer from it. And I feel like people tell me a different thing all the time about how they avoid burnout. And so I’m still trying to find the right strategy for me. So I want to know, have you figured out the, what’s your secret sauce to avoiding burnout if you have one?

Megan Phillips:

I don’t get burnout because I’ve chosen a career path that doesn’t contain any burnout, basically. I mean, I’m in public service. I have chosen a career path that prioritizes time and purpose and prestige and money, as I said before, and that has allowed me to mostly avoid burnout. Now do I have monster cases that cause me to lose sleep and I’m like drafting things and we all toss and turn over things sometimes, but I have for the most part avoided burnout by just the life choices I’ve made in my career and priorities and the way I protect my time. I don’t always protect my time. Gosh, I’m learning to protect my time. Now, I won’t say what I would tell people when I was president at the Missouri Bar, particularly on the tail end of my term, is I’m not burned out, but I’m worn out.

I was tired. We all get worn out. And when I get worn out, and just as a rule, I address that through just the pillars of self-care, right? Sleep and movement and nutrition and girlfriends. But I’ve been lucky to avoid severe, dangerous burnout just from my professional choices. But I know that I’m rare in the legal profession. And for lawyers who are grinding and are in workplaces or sectors where burnout is a real risk and very prevalent, I would encourage them to try to do those things, set boundaries and take care of yourself and sleep and exercise and get some fresh air. But also the bar has resources for wellness and even more serious issues. The MissouriBar has the Missouri Lawyers Assistance Program or MOLAP. You can go on the website and find the phone number for that. I mean, BAMSL has resources. Luckily, compared to 20 or 30 or 50 years ago, at least we’re talking about it and destigmatizing mental health challenges and burnout in the legal profession.

And so I think you have to be brave to ask for help. And whether that’s professional help or just reaching out to a girlfriend or a colleague and saying, “I’m in a really bad place right now and I need somebody to handle this or that tomorrow so that I can take care of myself and take a breath.” We need to do that. And if we’re working in workplaces that don’t respect that, I think that’s where you vote with your feet. And we’re our own guardians, right? No one’s going to set boundaries for you. In fact, so one of my colleagues in my early years at Brian Cave, younger than me, he’s now a managing partner, he never forgot that I said to him one time, “Set your own boundaries because the firm is surely not going to do it for you. ” And I don’t know that he has listened to that advice, you know who you are, but we do have to set our own boundaries because your employer, your partner, nobody’s going to do it for you.

They’re going to take what you give them until you collapse.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

They’re not going to know it’s a problem until you say something,

Megan Phillips:

It

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Almost feels like.

Megan Phillips:

Right.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yeah.

Megan Phillips:

Absolutely.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Or the alternative that I always say is, “If you give a mouse a

Elizabeth McNulty:

Cookie.” My favorite callback, and this is a question I’ve asked a lot of people, I feel like season two, episode 12, Dear Younger Self, if you could go back and give your younger self a piece of advice, be it personal or professional, what would it be?

Megan Phillips:

This is so the wrong question for me because I’m really good at making bad choices in my personal life. And so I don’t know that I can speak to those. They’re all pretty private and embarrassing, but for anyone who sees me from afar as someone who has their shit together, I just want to tell you how wrong you are. Professionally, as I was saying earlier, my career choices have always been kind of passive. I’ve always just sort of taken a job because it fell into my lap because I was in the right place at the right time or somebody called me and said, “Oh, Megan, you would be great for this. You should apply for this. ” And that was part of the ampersand that led me into clerking. And then once I got into clerking, I just loved it so much. I have stayed.

What I didn’t realize is that I might’ve been a good litigator. I never considered being a litigator when I was in law school. It terrified me. So I feel like maybe I missed an opportunity there that could have led to maybe the bench at some point and I’m getting older. I don’t know that if that’s in the cards for me and I really like where I am. But if I had to go back and if I had advice for younger women, it would be to be more strategic and intentional about your career path and find a mentor or find someone who does what you want to do someday and ask them to sit down for a conversation and map out the stepping stones to get there. I don’t have any regrets, I guess. I would’ve done it differently maybe, but I’m happy with it where I am.

And same thing in your personal life. I mean, without getting into detail, there are a lot of forks in the road where again, I’m really good at making bad choices. And so I’m at a place in my life that’s very, very different from what I envisioned for myself when I was in my 20s, but I’m very fulfilled and happy. And there are a lot of things that make a life. So choose your own adventure. If something’s happened to you, you can’t control everything, but time, you cannot replace time and health and the people around you. And so those should always be the priorities.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Something that I think we as women don’t do enough is sort of focusing on our own successes and what makes us proud. So I’m kind of combining a little bit of the two questions here because season eight, episode nine, we talked about defining success and what success means to you. But also season six, episode four talks about pride and what makes us proud. And I’ll say that that was a hard episode to record and we were all so awkward during it because it feels we’re bragging and we’re not good at

Megan Phillips:

It. I heard that. And you have so much to be proud of, but it just feels so like you just want to cringe and drink under the table

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Talking about yourself. Yeah. I just want to curl up into a ball. I’m like, don’t make me talk about myself like this, but I want to know first, what does success mean to you? And then sort of tailing off of that, what makes you proud? What makes you successful and that you are like, “Yeah, I did that. “

Megan Phillips:

Yeah. As I said earlier, I mean, I think I have a different definition of success than a lot of people in the legal profession. It’s still hard for me not to compare myself to classmates who are judges and general counsel and managing partners and politicians or whoever. I mean, comparison is the thief of joy, right? So there are people my age who have done amazing things with their careers and have accomplished so many things. And I kind of feel average professionally by comparison. But again, I’ve made intentional choices in my career to prioritize, to realize that I work to live, I don’t live to work. And I love my work and it’s very rewarding and it’s important to me, but life is not all work. And so for me, success is, as I said, just purpose, feeling like I’m doing something that makes a difference in the world, time to live a life outside of work and my health.

And that requires time also. So I want to live, my grandmother lived to 104. My mother is 83 and she still substitute teaches during the school year and plays pickleball every day. And I want to be like them. So for me, you can’t put a price on time and purpose and your health. So to me, those are the things at this point in my life that comprise success. Now, what am I proud of? I mean, personally, I’m most proud of my son, Leo, who’s going to be a sophomore at Wash U. And the parenting gods knew that I was going to be a remedial case. And so they gave me a really easy kid, just like a joy. It was never something I envisioned for myself to be a mom. I don’t think I’m very good at it, but he turned out just to be an incredible person.

Nonetheless, I’m really proud of him. I also am proud of my mom and her accomplishments. She’s 83. She still teaches. She and my sister are both teachers, so educators are superheroes as far as I’m concerned. No one wears more capes in a workday. But my mom, when we were growing up and I was in college and I was learning about the feminist movement and the ’70s, and I asked her one day, I was like, “Mom, how did you experience the ’70s?” And the feminist movement and just all of the upheaval of that period. And she said, “I didn’t have time for the feminist movement. I was working full-time, raising two kids and going to grad school at that. ” I’m like, “Do you hear yourself?” She was living it. She was the one just going about her business, doing the thing. So I’m really proud of my mom and my sister as educators and our kids.

I mean, professionally, I am proud of the contributions that I’ve made to moving the needle in Missouri through WLA and through the Women’s Commission and the bar. I mean, it’s always a team effort and we have hopefully paved what used to be a gravelly path or we’ve widened it or something. I don’t know. Hopefully what we’ve done during my kind of tenure in Bar leadership has moved us in the right direction and others will stand on our shoulders and continue to advance the work. And I’m also really, really proud of being a public servant in the third branch. If your newsfeed is polluted with information that weakens your confidence in our democratic institutions, I want you all listening to this to rest assured that the third branch is powered by public servants of high intellect and integrity and dedication across the Missouri org chart, both state and federal.

And we are dedicated to the judiciary and the rule of law and the integrity of our process and the service we provide to citizens. And I’m really proud to be a part of that.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I love how you answered that question and how many things you listed off because like Liz said, it’s a really sometimes difficult thing to talk about all of your own accomplishments and how proud they make you. But I think that you’re such an excellent example of what a woman in the legal field can be because your perspective is so different than so many people that I think we see or we interact with. And you bring just such a different approach to this career. So I want to thank you for your time today and all of your contributions because I think that you’ve changed the landscape, at least in Missouri for a lot of women in our position. So thank you for taking the time to talk with us today.

Megan Phillips:

It has been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yes. Thank you so much, Megan. And I don’t know how I follow up what Elizabeth said other than you’re a badass. You have so much to be proud of. So thank you for joining us. Thank you for all that you’ve done.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Thank you to our listeners for staying with us during this conversation. I hope that you had some important takeaways from this conversation. I know that I learned a lot and as always, we drop episodes every other Wednesday, so we will talk to you then. Thanks so much.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Heals in the Courtroom. At the Simon Law Firm, we know that trial success isn’t just about experience, it’s about strategy, resources, and the power of collaboration. That’s why attorneys across the country partner with us to strengthen their cases and deliver justice for their clients. If you’re interested in working with our team of seasoned trial lawyers, call 314-241-2929. And if you enjoyed the podcast, be sure to subscribe and send us your thoughts at heelsinthecourtroom.Law.

Continue Reading