EP 1008 – Advocacy in Action: Building a Purpose-Driven Law Firm Part 2

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Welcome back to another episode of Heals in the Courtroom. I’m Elizabeth McNulty and I’m joined by Liz Lenivy, Mary Simon, Katie St. John, and we are so happy to have guests Krystal Weigel and Olivia Weigel. If you listen to part one, you’ve heard our discussion with them about advocacy in and outside the courtroom. And if you haven’t had a chance yet, go back and check it out before starting this episode. In this episode, we’re diving into what it really means to run a firm, leadership decisions, financial realities, firm culture, growth, and the emotional weight of entrepreneurship because behind every successful law practice is something we don’t talk about enough, the business. So when did you guys first realize you weren’t just practicing law, you were also running a business?

Krystal Weigl:

I think Olivia told me.

Olivia Weigl:

I was going to say, that’s all I’ve been doing.

Krystal Weigl:

Yeah. It’s definitely when the bills come in. You think about opening a practice and when it’s just me, well, that’s easy, right? I don’t need a ton of stuff. I’m doing all right. We doing okay on just making sure that the cases are advancing and then good work and money comes after that. But in the interim, especially when you run a plaintiff’s side contingency practice, it’s high stakes poker all the time, right? So definitely the bills made it very clear. And then adding people to the team, I think is what really got me thinking about, oh, we have to protect the people on this team, support the people on this team, make sure they have what they need. Otherwise, none of this happens.

Liz Lenivy:

I hear people always say, the first step is the hardest. You might have this big grand idea, but the question then becomes, well, how do I actually put this into practice? And so just for anyone that’s listening that’s thinking, I want to hang up my own shingle. I want to be my own boss. What did you find was the first real step that you had to take in order to make this dream a reality?

Krystal Weigl:

Boy, I probably, I know that usually when people talk about lawyers, they say lawyers are very risk averse. Lawyers are very calculating. I think that I maybe represent the minority of us that just don’t fall into that category. It really was. It was like an overnight decision over a decade. And the first step was I just said it out loud. I said, “I don’t think I can work like this anymore.” And my brother who was home because of the writer’s strike and the COVID and the shutdowns in Manhattan, he was like, “I’ve been telling you for 10 years to start your own practice, gently like a brother does.” And I was like, “Well, I don’t know how to use a computer.” And he was like, “Well, I don’t have a job right now and I do. ” And it was literally like that was it.

And I reached out to the clients that I had at the time that I’d moved around with me from firm to firm. I’d been at a different firm every two years for my whole career. This is the longest I’ve stayed anywhere. A lot

Liz Lenivy:

Harder to leave now with your names on the door.

Krystal Weigl:

My name’s on everything. It just feels a little like I got to commit here. But yeah, it was like, okay, we’re doing it. That’s sort of how it happened. And I kind of wish it was a more sophisticated story, but it’s not. That’s where it took off.

Elizabeth McNulty:

What are some of the first things that you have to do in order to kind of start your own firm?

Krystal Weigl:

I think it depends on your risk tolerance and your ability to tolerate financial uncertainty because that’s not a luxury that’s afforded to everyone. So depending upon your own financial situation, you do have to figure out, okay, do I have clients?That was actually easier than I thought it was going to be. I was like, “Okay, well, I’ll just put money into advertising or marketing or something like that and the clients will come.” I’m actually very proud to say we have never spent a dime on marketing or advertising. We’ve never done lead generation, anything like that. Every client we have has been a referral and I feel very good about that. So when you’re starting your own firm, you need to analyze your own financial risk profile. There’s a million ways to do that. There’s a lot of good information out there about it now. What practice area are you competent in?

What skillset are you lacking? Because we’re all lacking in skillsets and I think attorneys have a very narrow window of things that we are very deeply good at. And then how do I support myself with the areas that I would consider myself lacking for me? And that’s always like, okay, which good people can I rope into working on this project?

Olivia Weigl:

Well, and I think that’s important too. I think you need to know from the outset, is this one woman show or am I looking at building something bigger than that? Because that’ll affect how you set it up, how you finance, maybe even your practice areas that you are able to go into.

Katie St. John:

Did you always see yourself adding another partner?

Krystal Weigl:

No. No. I didn’t even see myself adding myself at first. It was just like Al Fens was there. Olivia came next. Luke, actually he’ll tell the story I’m sure if you ask him too, and he’s very animated about it, but he had been doing seven years of Big Law after four years of the Air Force and I think maybe was getting a little interested in other options.

And he texted me and he said, “Hey, can we grab lunch?” And I was like, “Yeah, sure, of course.” And the serendipitous thing that happened was I brought Luke a case that I needed support on when he was at Lewis Rice. And I said, “Hey, is this something you guys can do the war room on because this is a big case and I need to make sure it’s well supported.” And the client liked Luke, of course. And so we worked on for like the six months before he left Lewis Rice, we worked on this case together. And he said when it was over, he was like, “I have to go back to what I’ve been doing and I just don’t want to. ” And he was getting bored with it. And Luke is also a very passionate guy. We care about a lot of the same things we care, so corporate defense just doesn’t hit all the buttons for him.

And so he said he would want to go out on his own. No, he asked me about going out on my own and I had said, “Oh, you’re looking at doing something different.” And he was like, “Yeah, I’m looking.” I said, “Oh, where are you going? ” He was like, “Well, I was kind of wondering if maybe you wanted to see if we

Katie St. John:

Could…” Going to your place. And I

Krystal Weigl:

Was like, “Me? Really?” So it was very flattering. It was very cool. It was a very easy decision. I immediately was like, “Yeah, what do we do? What’s the plan? How does this work?” And neither Luke or I have any real planning ability if it’s not about litigation strategy. And so by that time, Olivia was already there. She told us what to do. We did it. And then we brought Brendan Foley on recently. He was doing August. August. Yeah. He’s been phenomenal. Huge, huge addition to the team, just completing the puzzle. And then Olivia needed another Olivia. So that’s when we brought Michaela in to run the admin side.

Mary Simon:

Do you think that the biggest learning curve was more of just the financial side to it? Let’s make sure that we can keep the firm … Once we say we’re a firm, was the biggest learning curve, what things do we need to be doing in the background to keep the lights on and keep the cases going? Or do you think it was more, I would categorize that more of an objective, this is the difficult thing is to make sure we have this dollar amount in order to keep things going. Or do you think it was more of a subjective learning curve that’s like, I’m now the person that everyone’s coming to make decisions, not about a case, but from just you’re the person that you go to, to ask questions or what are we going to do about this or this is happening? Should we incorporate this into our cases?

I guess that would be more of a leadership learning curve, right? Do you think that was harder or just the more nuts and bolts of managing a business or equal?

Krystal Weigl:

It’s all hard. It’s all so hard. Yeah. Yeah. It is. I have found myself on many occasions sitting in these spaces and going, oh, I’m … When we went to Lewis Rice, we were sitting in one of … We brought this case over there. I was talking to my longtime friend, Luke, who I’ve known forever, and that was very natural and very easy, but we’re sitting in one of the boardrooms that spans the width of Broadway and the client and people who had been doing it much longer than me, all men, everyone else in the room, and for what that’s worth, were, “Okay, what do you think about this? Do you want to do it this way or this way?” And I’m like, “Yes, that is the thing that I already knew and I’m very confident answering.” It’s so funny, but I will say the longer that I’ve gotten into this, the more I realize that there are so few rules about how we handle these things.

There’s really not a roadmap through a lot of this because I talk to people who’ve been running smaller practices for 15 and 20 years and I’m like, “Yeah, I’m still trying to figure that out. ” And I think that it’s funny, but it’s honest and

Mary Simon:

So

Krystal Weigl:

Much pivoting.

Mary Simon:

Because it’s constant. It’s not like you learn it and then you’re like, now I get it because every month is different. Every year that you look at is different. And it’s hard to even be like, we need to have this many years behind us in order to even have that information of how to drive decisions in the future. It’s just, it is. It sounds like it’s all hard, but it’s not the same, I guess, at any given time.

Olivia Weigl:

Especially having a practice that’s centered around contingent cases. I think that’s where somebody who is in the nuts and bolts and the financing and I like a plan, that is really hard for me to kind of take a hold of. And like you said, it’s always different. So I don’t know that I’ll ever have a great hold on it. I would say Krystal’s naturally in a leadership position or has that personality. I don’t know that that was that difficult for her, but I think our firm also is so collaborative that I don’t know. There’s been many times where everybody’s staring at you saying, “Make this decision right now.” That’s definitely happened in the past, but just in general, for me, getting a hold on, law firms operate so differently than other businesses. It’s so strange for me to come in there. And I’ve done … Our dad had a business and I helped with the accounting on that.

I’ve done other businesses, other financing, and this is just not something that’s static. It’s very hard to adjust to it, this contingency operation where you really don’t know.

Krystal Weigl:

Yeah. Oh yeah. And I say all the time, I’m like, I’m a good lawyer. I know that I’m a good lawyer. It’s taken me a long time to be able to say that comfortably. I’m a good lawyer, but on my very best day, I am a completely mediocre businesswoman. There are a lot of things that … And I think for good reason, right, like business ownership is primarily about increasing value for shareholders. That’s the idea. And for the most part, as we know in the type of litigation we do, that’s done at all costs, right? It’s profits over people. That’s a theme we use in the courtroom consistently that we see it all the time, right? Law firms are not that. That’s at least what we do. The plaintiff’s model is not built around how do we make as much money as we possibly can.

And I tell younger lawyers when they ask, “Hey, if the goal is go make a lot of money in a way that you don’t particularly feel attached to the end, the means of doing that, this isn’t it. ” The value system is very different than the things that get recorded on a profit and loss statement. If you’re

Mary Simon:

Doing it right, I believe

Krystal Weigl:

That’s

Mary Simon:

…

Krystal Weigl:

You are absolutely correct.

Mary Simon:

Yeah. I’m curious if, is there something, just being all women sitting around this table, there are so many things I know even in the last decade that I’ve had to kind of unlearn just little things. I mean, we can all probably point to things whether it’s how to type an email in a more confident way or sometimes when you’re doing something and I’m like, “Oh, how would a man answer this? ” That’s what I’m going to start doing, blind confidence for sure. But is there something particularly being in a leadership position, I think that there’s things that women have to unlearn as working professionals in professions where it’s male dominated. And then I can imagine that a woman in a leadership position in that profession where it’s even less women where you’re at, what’s something that you’ve had to unlearn if you’re in that boardroom or you’re with other business owners in rooms of men, particularly.

I mean, that’s where my question is coming from. What’s something that you’ve had to unlearn, just the confidence aspect? I mean, what …

Krystal Weigl:

Yeah, that’s a great question. There’s so much. There’s so much unlearning, unbecoming type of stuff. I thought that, and you probably heard this when I was talking about this earlier. When I was a kid, I thought men who wear suits, who speak confidently and articulately, they know what’s going on and they’re doing all those things and they look that way because they know things that I don’t know. Now, when I was four, that might’ve been true, but they know what they’re doing, right? They know the answers, they have a plan, they’re prepared. And so that’s an authority figure. I’m not saying I didn’t think that about women, but that was the impression that I had for a long time. And I’ve always been in litigation.

That even more so than just the legal profession itself is very, even further male dominated. So the idea that I have to be so prepared and poised and perfect and speak like anybody aside from myself in order to be effective or to be an authority figure, I think I’ve let go of that. One example of this, okay, I remember being told that you can’t giggle, you can’t laugh. If you laugh at anything, if you’re showing that there’s some, because women’s laughs are often referred to as giggles. I remember being told that when I was really young and when I was learning how to be in this profession and how to look and sound like the powers that be. And that’s like okay advice. I still put smiley faces in my emails sometimes. Sure. But it’s like if I’m laughing because I’m comfortable, if I’m laughing because something’s funny, if I’m laughing in my own voice, then there’s no blanket rule about any of that stuff.

Mary Simon:

Yeah.

Krystal Weigl:

And I like the, I use an exclamation point here and there and I’ll probably keep it that way when it’s appropriate, but you’re learning how to litigate for the most part. I don’t know that this is true of everyone in this room. For the most part, I was learning from men. I was learning from the first Cher who was a man, right? You guys are all shaking your heads. So I guess we’ve all seen a little bit of this. And you get like that one woman who’s at the table and then you’re like, “I got to sound like her. I need to act like her. That’s the right person.” And so there’s a lot of mimicking and learning by doing, but by watching other people. And I think that learning how to do what they were doing, but in my own voice with my own face and my own thoughts and opinions about things, that’s the game changing experience of unlearning what you’re supposed to sound like.

Mary Simon:

I really like that too, because I just like listening to a woman in your position, a person in your position, because I think it’s really inspiring. I have found that I have learned a lot from male mentors and I have found moments where I’m feeling the most confident is actually where it’s going to be the biggest decision that I know will reflect me. So I feel like in the position that you’re in, that’s every decision you’re making in the position that you’re in, in terms of your firm, right, you and your partner’s firm. But I recently tried a case with a male colleague and I felt that in moments that I was in front of the jury, I had no problem saying to him like, “This is what we’re going to do. ” Because it so heavily reflected me sitting at the council table and there were even moments where he would suggest, or even before closing argument being like, “Hey, just remember when you do this.

” And I was like, “I got it. I got it. I got it. I got it. ” And I said that so many times and it was my first close, right? So I understand that. And it was coming from a place of encouragement, of course, which I appreciate, but it’s like, this is my case and this is my client and this is my jury and I got it. I got it because I know how I sound and you can’t tell me how to sound. You know what I mean? So I appreciate the input, but I feel like the moments in my career where I’m taking that next step forward in terms of unlearning are those moments, it’s the highest stakes. And I can only imagine that being in the position that you’re in, it’s all of those decisions because you’re making decisions about the finances of the firm and where the firm is headed and how people are going to be treated at the office and how we’re going to take care of people.

I feel like as an attorney who happens to be a woman, those are the moments where I’m finding myself having no problem speaking up when I know I’m not just going to be the second person or the third person in the room, but if I’m the one who’s going to answer to something, it’s like, “No, no, no, I’m going to say it because it’s me who’s going to say it. ” You know what I mean? I do. Yeah. So it’s just inspiring to hear different levels of women unlearning things and how that happened because I feel that those are the most empowering moments because there’s no one way to do it.

Krystal Weigl:

There’s not even one set of 12 ways to do it. And that’s why it’s like endless.

Mary Simon:

Yes. And it’s so funny when you hear about the guys in suits and what they say and then you see the guys in suits and what they say sometimes and I’m just like, “Oh, okay. All right. I think I can do that. ” And I can probably say it in a little bit more convincing way too. It’s just the more that you’re exposed to that, the more confidence you get because you’re like, “Oh, okay.” So I can just imagine hearing what you’re saying is like, “Yeah, I’m just going to start my own firm. I’m just going to do it. ” And then you’re like, “Okay, I guess everyone else, this is how they did it. I’m just going to do it too.” It’s just encouraging. I love stories like that.

Liz Lenivy:

So sticking on this topic of decision making, I hope I’m not sticking my foot in my mouth here, but am I the only one with the sister? Y’all got brothers.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. I don’t know what I

Mary Simon:

Think about that. Two brothers.

Elizabeth McNulty:

We

Mary Simon:

All had to think for a second.

Liz Lenivy:

The thought of working with my sister. I think I would rather just go off the grid and be a goat farmer or someone like- And we love her. Oh, look, I love my little sister. I know you do. I know you do. God, I don’t want to work with her. We would just be butting heads all the time. And so, and I think that’s always a very interesting thing about a family dynamic and a family run firm, and obviously we’re a family run firm, but there’s so many people here as well, but I do- And it’s a

Mary Simon:

Different dynamic, sister.

Liz Lenivy:

Oh yes. I know siblings are siblings, but I feel like we’re particularly ruthless with one another sometimes. But I do want to know, how do you all handle … If you guys have a disagreement about the business, how do you resolve that internal business conflict also keeping in mind that you all have to see each other at Thanksgiving?

Olivia Weigl:

I mean, like we said, we’ve worked for a family business our entire lives. I’m also going to say that this is Krystal’s business and I help run it because I want it to be successful and it is our name on the door, but this is Krystal’s business. And so if there is a disagreement … I mean, we’ve had so many disagreements throughout our lives. I feel like now, three decades practice, we know how to talk that out. And comically enough, we actually do share an office since we brought on the attorney in August, now I moved into her office. We need a bigger

Mary Simon:

Space again. I love that you said that because I thought you were going to say, “We don’t have any.” Yeah, we do. We had so many. So

Elizabeth McNulty:

Many. No,

Krystal Weigl:

I love that. I couldn’t tell you how many we had on the ride over here. We also, we have strong opinions about very different things. I’d say that’s accurate. Olivia’s usually the sibling that’s mediating because our brother is the youngest, the only boy, and he’s me if I was both of those things, which is so … Oh,

Mary Simon:

Interesting.

Krystal Weigl:

So he literally studied comedy. He had a non-traditional path through going through school. All of these things that, first of all, were not available when you were the firstborn, but it is. It’s usually like he has strong opinions about the same things that I have strong opinions about. And Olivia comes in with the playbook of like, “Okay, everybody go to your separate corners. Here’s how we’re going to do this. “

Olivia Weigl:

I’m the middle child. I’m the peacekeeper.

Krystal Weigl:

Yeah,

Olivia Weigl:

Very much so. But we’re both, I mean, I would say we’re just both good at speaking- Freely. Freely, honestly. Also, honestly, we know how to express ourselves, which is not something I could have said 20 years ago, but we definitely had some disagreements. So we talk through anything we disagree about, but I’m not sure there’s been anything very substantial because we do have those opposing view, not opposing viewpoints, but kind of-

Krystal Weigl:

Opposite things we’re super concerned about.

Liz Lenivy:

Almost like you’re a little bit complimentary of each other. As opposed to opposed. Yes. Well,

Krystal Weigl:

And I’ll say this, I would say as adults, we have always had a tremendous amount of respect for each other. It’s critical on any team, but especially on close knit teams and smaller teams. There’s not a time where anybody’s going to say something negative about Olivia in front of me and that’s going to fly. That’s always been true and they’re just vice versa. It’s like we’re always on the same team and we always have been long before the firm.

Olivia Weigl:

And I think that was very important to our parents as well is this is your sibling and they’re your sibling for life and you may have different viewpoints, but you’re going to get along. And I don’t know if that was for the sake of the business more than it was just keeping the house peaceful.

Krystal Weigl:

Yeah. They’re like, “Oh, you have a problem and go figure that out. We’re not going to help you with that. You got a decision to be made, then go outside if you need to. “

Katie St. John:

So my family also, both my parents own small businesses. And so I think part of what I was kind of picking up on when you two were talking is like disagreements are not or having a bad day or not. At the end of the day, there’s something to be said for it being your family member and knowing, like you said, you said this is her business, Krystal’s business. And because you are her sister, you want her to succeed and she wants you to succeed. And that’s kind of like the nice thing about being in business with your family as hard as it can be because you all have to go to Thanksgiving together at times. It’s just kind of a different feeling, right? There’s like an inherit or an innate trust and friendship and love that you guys have for each other.

Olivia Weigl:

Absolutely.

Katie St. John:

I’m sure that’s fun on a day-to-day basis

Olivia Weigl:

As

Katie St. John:

Well.

Olivia Weigl:

And also, yeah, the trust is built in. It’s hard to find somebody to work with, a business partner or just a colleague in general that you can trust 100%.

Krystal Weigl:

And it’s hard to work with anybody. I mean, it’s hard to work with people. And it’s like you take somebody where it’s like, okay, we have different opinions, different experiences, different ways to approach problems, you name it. But I know that we’re working towards the same goals. I know that you always have my back. I know that we want to accomplish the same things and if something’s important, it’s important. And if there’s work to be done, it gets done and that … Thanks.

Olivia Weigl:

Anytime.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Do you find working in a family business that it’s harder to keep boundaries between work life and home or holidays? Do you find yourself always talking about the business or cases or are you guys pretty good? Or maybe you just like talking about work all the time.

Krystal Weigl:

I don’t know what boundaries are. I’ve tried. I’ve read books. Yeah.

Olivia Weigl:

It’s

Krystal Weigl:

Always been that way though. Literally, we would go to my dad’s parents’ house for dinner a lot, a lot because they lived down the street from us when we were growing up and we both got on and off the bus for school at our grandparents’ house and our grandma would be getting dinner ready and our grandpa and at sometimes our uncle and then our dad just always-

Olivia Weigl:

Opa’s just drawing up what’s wrong with the coil on a napkin at dinner.

Krystal Weigl:

There’s like parts in one chair for like a project that had been worked on and family vacations, same thing. It just always was that way.

Olivia Weigl:

I don’t think it ever feels like too much to me. I think what we do is very interesting. Not that I don’t love air conditioners, but it’s a little bit different talking around it.

Krystal Weigl:

We are very passionate about climate control, okay? Yes. We really are.

Olivia Weigl:

Could not live without my AC. But around the dinner table, it is interesting sometime to talk about cases and bring that up. I don’t know. We see a lot of each other all the time outside of work as well. So yeah, we talk about work outside.

Krystal Weigl:

Yeah. And there are things that are really heavy. There are things, cases we work on that are very heavy. I think that one of my coping mechanisms is solving problems, right? I like to solve problems and when things are too heavy, it’s like, okay, well, we’re going to have to switch away from this for a little bit. We’re going to have to do something fun, do something engaging. Not this, but then 20 minutes later we’re like, “And could you even believe that he said that? ” Yes. So yeah, the work-life balance thing has always been interesting to me because I’ve never known that. That’s never been like a thing that was … Our parents worked all the time, all the time. And usually hanging out with our parents meant we were at work with them. It was pretty rare that we were doing stuff outside of that.

Olivia Weigl:

But it wasn’t not enjoyable.

Krystal Weigl:

No, I mean-

Olivia Weigl:

And at work too, there’s a lot of … I mean, I talk to Krystal about her daughter all the time because I’m obsessed. So at work, I always want to know how did Charlie sleep? Well, there’s a very good answer. How much money did she get for her tooth last night?

Krystal Weigl:

Yeah. And my daughter, she was up at the office with me yesterday. She’s in there quite a bit too. I do think there’s something to be said for really caring about what you do in a healthy way, right? The workaholic part to escape something else, that’s not it, but if you’re really interested in what you’re doing and you really feel passionately about it and you care about it, it doesn’t just feel like you’re just grinding all the time, which I’m not in support of.

Katie St. John:

I agree with that. I always joked with … So my mom owns a flower shop and I never knew it at the moment, but Valentine’s Day obviously was just nuts. And there was this moment I had where I completed my first trial and I was like, “That was similar to Valentine’s Day,” where it’s just this marathon and you feel like you’re running on E, but there’s an end inside, there’s going to be a closing, all this stuff. So I told my mom that, so she’s always like, “I’ve done a trial too. It’s called Valentine’s Day

Krystal Weigl:

For the same.” Yeah, I mean, absolutely. It’s like, we did that trial week and it’s like, you know, you’re going 20 hours a day for weeks on end and then there’s the trial. And then it’s somehow longer, but you get done with it and you’re like, “Oh, I’d do that again.” Yeah. And I think you would say the same thing about it.

Olivia Weigl:

Oh, I would absolutely do it again. I thought trial was amazing. So fun. It’s the best. I dropped her off one night after trial. It was like 10:30, 11:00, and our mom knew we didn’t eat because we forget to do that sometimes. She had a lunchbox for me and she had a sandwich for Krystal on the table. Krystal and her live in the same

Krystal Weigl:

House. Yeah, my mom lives with us. And I’ll also say this, there is something to be said about … Our dad’s parents, like I said, they came over here, they immigrated over the country, right? And my mom’s grandparents immigrated over here from Ireland. And so there’s something about that community and that proverbial village that I think is unfortunately lost a lot in our Midwestern capitalist culture, but we were raised like that. It was little Germany over on Foxfire Drive. I’ll tell you that. It’s alphanes and alphans and elephants. So it was a lot of love and a lot of support and a lot of good work, not the working for the sake of working, but working because you really, really, really care about something and it’s part of who you are. And I don’t think anybody accidentally becomes an attorney and certainly not a litigator.

So you don’t do this stuff by mistake. And if you do, you don’t stay here very long.

Liz Lenivy:

So when is your official third anniversary or did it just pass? I know

Krystal Weigl:

You’ve been- Funny enough, it’s actually Olivia’s birthday, which is February 27th.

Liz Lenivy:

This

Olivia Weigl:

Friday. We’re coming up

Krystal Weigl:

On the 3rd anniversary. 3rd anniversary, yes.

Liz Lenivy:

So having done this almost three years, two years and what, 51 weeks? Is there anything that you experienced in opening your own practice that if you could go back and talk to yourself then, hop in the time machine and go, “Don’t do that, ” or, “Please do this. ” Is there any experience you had where you’re like, “Oh, that would’ve been great knowledge to have at the time.”

Krystal Weigl:

Yes. Yes. So much. So much. I am available, I think say this too. I’m a very trusting person. Okay? If I say something, I mean it. My brain does not process, we’re going to create this narrative and say these things and act in this way in order to accomplish this very forced outcome. It doesn’t work that way. And I don’t approach litigation in that way either. Actually, one of the mentors that I had when I was in New York was, he would always say, “A good winemaker’s job is to get out of the way of the grapes. Let the stories speak, facilitate the growth.” And I think about storytelling and trial very much in that way as well, or mediation. So I don’t work in a way where I’m like, “Oh man, this person’s trying to pull one over on me. ” And so in business, that’s come up where people have been deceptive about, I don’t know, co-counsel relationships or fee splitting or things, which I was like, “Oh my God, why would you say something that wasn’t true?” Right to my face.

That’s just an incredible thing to do. And so I sometimes joke, Olivia is very much the no to my yes because I am always, “Yeah, this is great. I love this stuff. You don’t live for it. ” And Olivia’s usually the one like-

Olivia Weigl:

It’s just funny because she says this to her daughter, but I like to say it to her slow and in control.

Krystal Weigl:

And my daughter and I both often need to be reminded of that.

Mary Simon:

I tell my daughter, “Think it through.” And she’ll be on the edge of the couch being like, “Watch me jump.” And I’m like, “Just think it through.” And that’s the slow and intro. In control.

Krystal Weigl:

Yeah. And it does. I will say this again, on the lawyering side of it, this all makes sense to me. We’re not moving recklessly. We’re not going fast. They can sweat it out. We’re going to do what needs to be done in a methodical and calculated way. On the business side, I’m like, well, first of all, what is a business? And then second evolve, how does QuickBooks work? And other questions. So it very much is, it’s like on the business side. Yeah, there’s so many. I would go back and I wouldn’t change things that have gone on here because man, it’s just so … You need those lessons. And if you’re like me, you need to experience things to learn things. There’s no other way that I know to really truly, deeply understand something in the moment. And business decisions are very much that way.

But Olivia is the filter. She is very much the barrier between me and like, I don’t know, fill in the blank.

Mary Simon:

And background checks on

Olivia Weigl:

People. Background checks. Signing every client that you feel sorry for.

Krystal Weigl:

I do. Yeah. I know somebody will call me and they’ll be like, “This terrible thing happened.” And I’m like, “Get your ass in here.” And I’m actually not allowed to be the first person that talks to potential new clients and that’s for a good reason. There’s a couple of people I got to chat with before me.

Olivia Weigl:

I would say one of the biggest pieces I learned and I wish I knew coming on is that you call it the practice of law a lot. And I begun to understand why there’s just so many different things. And this case law contradicts this case law and this is not the same as it is right over the river in Illinois. And so the fact that there is, not that there’s leeway for mistakes to be made, but there’s leeway for understandings. And it’s really your practice and how you’re able to speak to it and how you’re able to tell that story for your clients to a judge, a jury, a mediator, whatever it is, that has really opened my mind to the practice of law because when I came on, I thought it was more rigid. I thought, here’s the law, this is what happens, not even in criminal, but civil as well.

And so I believe that puts a different lens on how I look at client intake and how I look at even when I’m drafting charges or how I look at things when I’m just doing it every day. I have friends that are small business owners and they call and they ask some questions and I’m like, “Well, it’s not as cut and dry as that. ” Oh,

Liz Lenivy:

You’re giving the lawyer and sort of- It depends.

Olivia Weigl:

As somebody who likes to know how every situation would turn out, that’s something I wish I had known sooner. The math and science

Mary Simon:

Brain.

Olivia Weigl:

Totally.

Mary Simon:

That’s such a good pair. You two are such a good pair.

Krystal Weigl:

And I say that all the time. That I do say a lot, Mary. But I also say, I think that litigation is very much like the art form of the eldest daughter. It is like, this is the theater. It’s where we get to perform. But I remind people, especially internally all the time, this is an art. This is not a science. This is a practice we are practicing. We are trying first and foremost, right? You try cases. You’re quite literally trying. That’s the

Liz Lenivy:

Point. I’m doing my best. I’ve started working this because we do so much personal injury work. And I say, I look at my job similar to … And I think medicine is often compared to law, right? Absolutely. Lawyers and doctors, lawyers and doctors. And I tell a client in the initial conversation and throughout the relationship, you know how a doctor gives you a risks and benefits conversation before they do a surgery. I’m going to give you a similar risks and benefits conversation so that you know what’s going on. One, I think it sets clients’ expectations, like you mentioned earlier, but that’s something that I feel like I’ve had to … I’ve learned to do a better job of as I’ve done it more and more, especially because at the beginning, when you don’t have that confidence to say out loud, “I am a good lawyer.” It takes a while to get to that point and it still sometimes feels like a little hubristic.

Am I patting myself a little bit too much on the back?

Krystal Weigl:

No.

Liz Lenivy:

No. But it takes a while. Not in

Krystal Weigl:

The year of the horse, okay? The fire

Liz Lenivy:

Horse.

But I used to say, if I tell a client how bad things could possibly be, they just won’t hire me. But now I’m at the point where I’m thinking, well, if I don’t tell a client and then they do hire me, I’ve lied to them. So that’s something that I think is true of a client relationship, but also I’m kind of thinking about it in terms of opening up a business. You have to be honest about what are all the … There’s so many upsides of it. There’s so many great positives of it, but there are certainly some potential pitfalls.

Krystal Weigl:

And when Olivia’s talking about it’s a practice, right? It ties into that so much because when you’re doing this, I would say maybe for the first decade, but probably longer, you’re following orders. You’re following orders, you’re doing what the partner needs you to do, you’re speaking and you get leeway and you get to be creative, but you are still … The partner is in a way just they’re also a client because you’re going like, “I need to put on a performance in the way that recognizes the input that I’m getting, shows that I’m valuable, I’m contributing in these ways.” And so if you get to a space where you go, “Oh, now I’m cutting ties with a client. Now I’m burning a bridge that wasn’t really mine to burn,” that’s different because you do have to have those checkpoints all the time. And I have certainly reached a stage now and it does feel odd to say it because it’s not the most comfortable thing and it’s new to me certainly, but I’ve reached a stage where I’m like, “Yeah, maybe you need a different lawyer.

Maybe this isn’t the right one because this is how I run my practice. This is how I advocate. This is how my team functions.” And that feels really good, but boy, does this still feel so strange? Even the stepping away from work here and there, which is a new thing I’m learning about doing sometimes and doing … The kids help with that too, but going, “Okay, yeah, I actually, everything’s fine. Everything’s good. Everything’s going well.” That’s different. And thinking about how all those things come with the growth and the growing pains of how we get here and the journey that this profession will take you on. I have to remind myself all the time, I got a license to practice law. The law did not get a license to me. I’m in the driver’s seat. This is mine. Yes. I can drive this vehicle anyway I want to within the rules of the road, right?

That helps.

Elizabeth McNulty:

What strengths do you think that women who own, manage law firms bring and are probably, I would like to say, best suited to run firms? What do you think makes you as women better suited for that than maybe our male counterpart?

Krystal Weigl:

Women are so good at everything. I know Olivia’s got thoughts on this too, because we chatted through it that the part that I will speak to is that at least historically there has been a 40 hour work week or in big law, an 80 hour work week where there is a mill and a process and a conveyor belt that you’re put through, right? And that is at least in this profession where most people earn their stripes and start out. Certainly the law school structure contributes to that. And that dominates a lot of the ways that we view success and the way that we see ourselves in this profession. Problem is that most of those men had wives at home. They had somebody taking care of their children, had a little bit more support on the home front than I think what we usually experience. And so when you bring women into that space, you have shared experiences with a different set of clients, you have shared experiences with … I just talked to an opposing counsel, opposing counsel sent me an email two days ago and I was driving back from a hearing and she had said, “I’m so sorry.

X, Y, and Z happened. I got back from maternity leave two months ago.” And it was very clear in her email that she was on pins and needles about it. And there was some mistakes made that might come up later, but I called her and I was just like, “Hey, hey, this is not urgent. This is not a big deal. This is fine. We’ll get it done. And then you can move the deadline out a month. It’s discovery stuff.” Guy. Not really important, right? But because I’ve been there, I’ve been there. My God, you go back into one of the towers after you have a kid, going back into the office anyways is just really challenging. And now that makes our negotiation, that makes our communication better, stronger. It is advocating for my client, even though it’s also going like, “I’m not going to try to bury you with this.

” So I think there’s so much that comes with just having these experiences of growing up female.

Olivia Weigl:

Well, and I think in my experience, three years in the legal profession, I’ve seen that law firms run by women seem to be really passionate. And I believe that’s why despite we haven’t been trying to build an employment discrimination practice, but we have because it’s something Krystal’s passionate about. It’s something I’m passionate about and the people that we hire are also passionate about that. So it seems that those law firms are really deliberate in what they do. And I think it comes out of a place of passion. Another thing is I just feel like women lawyers are so much more levelheaded.

Krystal Weigl:

Krystal shared this part, really. Yeah. Are you going to say Luke’s line?

Olivia Weigl:

Yeah. So anytime a male colleague is just being ruined when it’s not necessary, and this has never once happened to me from a female attorney, Krystal’s partner, Luke, will step in and he’ll say, “I don’t know why you’re being so

Krystal Weigl:

Emotional.” I tag Luke in so frequently because I’m like, “I’m not going to wrestle with the pigs.” And I don’t have an ego about it where I’m like, “I got to prove I can handle … I know I can handle them.” And so it will come up. I’ll be like, “Hey, sir, it sounds like you need to talk to Luke. I don’t think we’re communicating very well.” And Luke, he knows every single time and he will hop in and I’ll just go. It sounds like you’re getting really emotional about this. Are you doing all right? And I have taken that and combined it with the parenting role once or twice and, “Do you need a

Mary Simon:

Snack?” Are you hungry?

Krystal Weigl:

You sound like you might be a little hungry. You got some hunger going on in there.

Olivia Weigl:

Yeah. I just think there seems to be much more of a team dynamic and like I said, very deliberate aspect of a woman run firm.

Katie St. John:

I’m wondering if your partner will, maybe I need to tag him in. I think I’m going to find someone that I can tag in. I’m going to tell Johnny.

Krystal Weigl:

Pretty Soon we’re going to be Emailing Luke and be like, “Luke,” and he relishes it. He really loves coming and be like, “Hey, it sounds like you’re getting a little hot here.” He does, because for me, I’m like, you know what? This is the thing that I remind the clients of, right? I’m not going to convince you that your behavior is unprofessional and probably stemming from some deep seated sexist issues that you’ve got going on. Hope everything’s okay at home, but I am going to say we’re going to move past this point and this is the part of the case we’re talking about. This is the issue we’re addressing. Luke, you can take over the

Elizabeth McNulty:

Misbehavior. For our listeners who might want to know more about your firm or who have a problem that you all could solve, or can they reach you?

Olivia Weigl:

We have a website. It’s weighellaw.com, W-E-I-G-L-L-A-W. And then we also have a Facebook page and an Instagram page. I would say as far as social goes, we’re most active on Instagram. But yeah, our website’s probably the best place to reach us.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Awesome. Well, Krystal, Olivia, thank you so much for sharing your story and how to build a successful law firm with our listeners. I know that I learned a lot and for those listening, whether you’re early in your career or thinking about opening up your own practice, I hope this conversation gave you both clarity and confidence. Until next time, we drop episodes every other Wednesday and you can find us at heelsinthecourtroom.Law. See you next time.

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