EP 917- Battling Burnout

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Heals in the Courtroom. I’m Elizabeth McNulty, and today I’m here with Liz Lenivy.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Hey Elizabeth.

Elizabeth McNulty:

So Liz and I were talking before we got started recording and we are nearing the end of the summer. We’ve been lucky enough to find some time to step away from work a little bit here and there this summer. With the summer comes a lot of just extracurricular activities with different legal organizations we’re involved with or getting together with friends also in the legal field. And a lot of that we realized those conversations start kind of the same. Hey, how you doing? Oh, I’m just so busy. I’m just so busy. Everyone’s swamped. And that seems to be kind of a running theme with lawyers we know and maybe ourselves. And I think that got us thinking, why do we glorify overwork in the law and what would it look like for us to stop doing that? And so I’m sure if you are in the workforce at all or maybe you’re a lawyer, you’ve thought about that and how it just becomes a competition.

And for me, I think that started probably as far back as law school. And I wonder if that’s kind of where we all get it from or if the law just entices a certain kind of personality to just be a workaholic.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Oh, the old chicken or the egg argument. No, I’m really glad we’re talking about this, Elizabeth, because this is something that I know I am so personally guilty of and I need to do a better job of realizing that it is not a sign of good virtue or good morality to just be tired and working all the time. And I know for me at least, this really did start when I was a kid. I was just raised in a household where if you aren’t busy, if you’re sitting and taking time to relax, you should be doing something. You should be up and you should be doing something. If you have time, it’s that old saying, if you’ve got time to lean, you’ve got time to clean.

But that is really how I was raised was it’s a positive virtue to study so hard, to study so many hours, to be so tired. And that’s something that I’ve had. Really, this has probably been a problem of mine since the fourth grade. And I even remember, this is so embarrassing. I remember telling a teacher, this was in grade school, “I studied for this science test for this many hours at the library on Saturday.” And my teacher’s responding, “That wasn’t necessary. You’re going to be fine.” And I laugh about it now, but it was probably signs of a real mental illness when I was a child, but I’ve carried that with me. And it’s not even … I feel like I’ve gotten better about the bragging about how busy I am. Where I still struggle though is the corresponding guilt I feel when I am taking that time off.

And you were just talking about it’s the end of the summer, hopefully people have had time to take vacation. And I do think we’re a little bit better about slowing down during the summer. But at one point, I had to go up to Madison, Wisconsin for deposition. So I went there for work. That’s so important for me to emphasize right now for reasons that I’ve already explained. I go up there for work and Madison is lovely this time of year. And my husband and I decided to stay an extra day just to make a little trip out of it. And I remember we were sitting right by the water and I had a book in front of me and we had a picture of beer and I’m reading and I’m sipping on my beer and I’m like, “Oh, this is so relaxing. This is so nice.

Why don’t I do this more back home? There’s nothing stopping me from sitting outside in nice weather except maybe the humidity.” But there’s really nothing stopping me from sitting outside and reading a book and enjoying a nice cold beverage other than the fact that I knew if I was in St. Louis, I would be working or I would be doing something with my time. And so the only way I could give myself that break was to literally cross state lines. And how disappointing is that? Because I feel like we’re strong, smart, in control women, and yet there’s this part of our brains that we, or at least me, I cannot control. I cannot stop feeling. So I’m glad we’re talking about this. And I know we’ve got maybe some horror stories of our own to delve into, but also hopefully talk about the ways that we are trying to not only change this culture and mindset for ourselves, but for the people around us, because I think that that’s really the only way … As future leaders in this profession, I think that’s the only way that this is going to change.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. Well, it sounds like you get it pretty honestly and it started at a really young age for you. So at least it isn’t something that you’ve recently developed. It’s a lifelong problem.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Listeners can’t see this, but I’m laying down on a couch right now and Elizabeth’s got a clipboard.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah, I’ll just be diagnosing you throughout the episode. Perfect. But for me at least, I don’t think I was like that as a kid. And part of it is probably because I grew up in a household where at least when I was a little kid in elementary school, my dad worked from home before working from home was even a real thing and my mom stayed at home with us. And so I knew he had a job, but he was always there. So it sort of felt like I didn’t understand parents go to the office and work a lot. I was like, “Well, my dad’s always at home.” And he traveled for work some, but I think it was just his presence was very much known. And so I didn’t have it in my head that work equals never being available and you need to be at your computer twenty four seven.

And so for me, it didn’t start until law school where you’re surrounded by people who love to talk about how much work they are doing, even if they aren’t really doing it. And so I was like, “Oh, I guess this is the kind of person I need to be to be successful.” And that’s where it really starts. And I was clerking here and I think part of being a trial attorney is being working all the time. And if you’re not working, you’re talking about work. And it’s really hard to get away from that. So I just kind of became that because those were all the examples I had of successful lawyers is like, “We’re all working all the time. We take this really seriously and that’s what you have to do to be successful and that’s what you have to do to best serve your clients.” And so I think that we feel the pressure, not only from your boss, your firm, the people you work with, clients, but I think probably for both of us, we feel it most internally.

And you were talking about your trip that you took and how you have a hard time stopping working. And I don’t know, I’ve gotten pretty good at setting boundaries probably ever since, probably around COVID, I was able to kind of take a step back and set some pretty hard boundaries for myself. But I find my biggest problem is not taking the time, but stopping myself from feeling really guilty when I do take any time. So it almost ruins anytime I take off when I’m not working because all I’m thinking about is how I should be working or I should feel guilty for taking this time. I think that just comes from me. I don’t think it’s necessarily a whole lot of outside pressure. It’s just because we all have this mindset of our value is the work that we’re doing and not necessarily living a full life.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I think the thing about this line of work that I guess maybe makes those types of attitudes so prevalent is the fact that this is a very competitive business. Everything is a competition. Literally, trial elections and sports. You have someone, an opponent who is trying to stop you from doing your job. There is someone who has declared a winner most of the time at the end or conclusion of whatever it is that you’re doing. So everything is a competition. And we talked about this chicken or the egg, whether you develop this sense of competition in law school or whether law school just naturally attracts people who are like this. It’s probably a little column A, column B, but I think particularly as a trial lawyer, with everything being in an adversarial relationship to, there’s always an opposite side, that then boils down to everything is a competition now, right?

And not only a competition against your adversary, but a competition internally. We all stand at happy hours and talk about how many hours we’re working, how many cases we’re working on, how much money we’re bringing in, the number of times I have heard people brag about how many depositions they were able to cram in one week. And I’m like, “That’s incredible. I don’t know when you slept, but also is that really in service to the client? Have you had sufficient time to prepare?” I hear what you’re saying, and I totally agree with you that whenever I take time off, I’m thinking about clients, about how I should be working. And even before I take time off, I try really hard to get as caught up as I can. I always schedule a case meeting with my team to make sure everything ball is moving. There’s always some sort of movement happening on every case, even if I’m not directly there to oversee it.

I know it’s ready when I come back, but it’s still that thought of, “But if I was there, everything would be moving faster. This week is going to break the case.” I mean, and it’s so silly, but it’s really hard to divorce ourselves from that mindset. So you’re not alone in that feeling.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Well, I think a lot of those thoughts are so irrational and they sort of stem from the idea that we are the center of the universe and nothing can happen without our presence. And if we’re not working as hard as we possibly can, then everyone is ultimately suffering. And I feel like if you take a step back, which is hard sometimes and realize that the world’s going to keep spinning if you take a week off. And in fact, you’re probably doing your clients a service by taking a time to relax and recharge so you can be a better lawyer for them in a week.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Sorry, I’m laughing because literally this week I had a client email me and I told, “I apologized.” It had been 24 hours and I apologized for not having reviewed the hundreds of pages of documents. I said, “I’m sorry, I haven’t had a chance to look through all of this yet. I’m out of town right now.” And I said, “I’m in Denver.” I did not say why though. And she responded, “Oh, no problem. She’s not upset. She’s not mad. She was just checking in to make sure I got everything. I hope you have a great time in Denver.” And I responded, “Oh, unfortunately, I’m here for work.” I felt like I had to justify being out. “Hey, don’t worry, I’m not in Denver because of fun or because I have a life. I’m in Denver because I’m so dedicated to this job. “And I was like, ” She doesn’t care.

There’s no way she cares about where I’m at or what I’m doing as long as I am getting back to her timely. “That’s a really good point of we got to get better about realizing nobody cares about our schedule as much as we do.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Truly. No, maybe my dog, but other than that, I think that’s it. I also am questioning whether work from home, the ability to be remote whenever you want to be is really great, truly creates so many efficiencies. But I also wonder if it creates this problem of we always feel like we can be on and we always feel like we can be working even when we’re at home. And I think it sort of leads into like, when was the last time you took a real sick day?

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I can tell you. I know it because I was so sick I was going in and out of consciousness and that seems

Elizabeth McNulty:

Valid.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

That’s the last sick day. And I have a distinct memory because I had COVID, it was February of last year and I had COVID so bad that I just kind of kept passing in and out. And I remember getting an email that just had just a, it was a very strange email. And I remember waking up and thinking I had fever dreamed the email, which means even when I was in and out, falling in and out of consciousness, I was still checking my email. I don’t know.

Elizabeth McNulty:

No. And that’s a little bit crazy, right? So-

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Can you imagine if I had responded?

Elizabeth McNulty:

No, I cannot. And so it’s just like the idea that we don’t even feel like we can take sick days, step away from your computer for a day when you’re legitimately ill is so toxic. I mean, that for me has been a lifelong battle. I had perfect attendance throughout four years of high school, which is really, I don’t know why I felt the need to be like that from age 14 to 18, but I mean, I was very serious about it. My mom was one of those moms that was, I would be like, “I’m sick.” And she’d be like, “Okay, well, you just make that decision for you if you feel like you should stay home from school, then you stay home from school.” And to me, I was like, “That means I have to go to school.” That’s not really a choice. I always felt guilted into going.

So it took a really long time for me to learn that you should take a sick day sometimes because you’re going to make bad decisions because you’re not mentally there because you’re sick. So you can always be on your laptop at home even if you are sick, which I think creates more issues.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

That’s a real problem, is that I feel like I can’t go anywhere without my laptop. I mean, we actually did have an actual vacation plan for ourselves, my husband and me. And I made it all the way to gate eight, E8 at the St. Louis International Airport before I pulled out my laptop because I needed to get something done before I got onto that plane and I knew I wouldn’t have reliable wifi. I made it through TSA before my laptop came out on my vacation. Again, it’s a real problem, but then … Okay, we’ve been talking now about all of the things that we have experienced or maybe signs that we have a problem. Really, that’s step one, right?

Elizabeth McNulty:

That’s

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Always step one.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Admit the problem.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Admit that you’ve got a problem. But I am curious, have you had any moments where you’ve cracked and you’ve realized like, “Oh my God, I’m so burnt out. It’s really hitting me. ” And the reason I ask this is because I think that if we are going to change the culture and the conversation around this topic, not only do we have to recognize the problem, but maybe be a little bit vulnerable and admit how serious of an issue. It’s not just that I pulled my laptop out on vacation and I was annoyed or that I realized I can’t enjoy myself unless I’m out of town and divorced from the office, but have you had a true come to Jesus moment of this is a problem?

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. I mean, I felt like during COVID, I mean, things were so isolating. I was in my first year of practice and I was doing it all remotely and I felt like I always had to be within arm’s length of my computer or my cell phone twenty four seven because we were out of the office. I went to Nashville with my parents at the time and everything was so intense in the world in general, but I felt like that just made it so much worse because the only thing you could control was your work really at the time. And I just felt like I had to be a thousand percent devoted to it. I mean, no one knew it was going to happen, so it was kind of crazy anyway, and I just felt like I was just eating, sleeping, and breathing work. It was awful.

We were getting a bunch of cases on file and I felt like very responsible for a lot of them. One of Taylor Swift’s albums came out during COVID. I think it was … Someone can correct me. Maybe Folklore. What Ever the first one that just randomly dropped? And I listen to it all the time. I cannot listen to that album anymore because it just brings me back to that moment of just like, I feel like I have PTSD from it just because I was working so insanely, but also alone and it just felt really isolating. And that was kind of a moment where I was like, “Okay, this isn’t healthy. I don’t have a healthier relationship with work anymore.” And both my parents were working full-time jobs at the same time as well. And I saw examples of like, “Oh, those people have jobs and careers too, and they are able to set much healthier boundaries than I am in making it work.

So maybe there are some things that I can be doing better, like taking time for myself and taking a real lunch break in the middle of the day.” But yeah, it was definitely not fun times to look back on.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yeah. I had a really bad meltdown right before I caught COVID in February of 2024, actually. I remember it. And it’s because I had a trial coming up in January. We resolved the case. We didn’t have to go through the case, but that did require a lot of prep work in the months leading up to it. And it was brutal. I was not the only attorney of record on the case, but I was taking lead on it and I was doing the 95% of the work from the drafting of all the documents, arguing motions, all of the … And there were so many depositions, taking all of the depos, it was overwhelming. And it was the biggest case I’d ever had up to that point. And I felt like I was so alone and I felt like I was working so much. And where I usually get to enjoy 10 days or nine, 10 days for Christmas break, the time between Christmas and New Year’s, I worked almost every day, except I guess I took Christmas Eve off, obviously, and I took Christmas day and then New Year’s Day, January 1st, I think I did take off.

But otherwise, I was just working constantly. And this was also, of course, coming after working that entire calendar year and not taking a ton of time off then either. And usually I use Christmas as my, that’s my time to take off and no one’s really going to bother me because everyone’s off. But that was not the case for me. So I had been working and working and working and I was so stressed. And it finally got to the point where in this particular case, because I was by myself, I not only felt very isolated and alone, I wasn’t sure if other people working around me recognized how hard I was working. So then I was like, “I don’t feel appreciated. I don’t feel recognized.” And then the moment that I broke was when it was not a client, family member closely associated with the case, called to basically … They did not have an understanding of what I was doing either, called and just screamed at me about what a terrible lawyer I am and terrible person I am.

And I was like, “This is coming off of so much work and I am killing myself. I’m not sleeping. I feel sick, no wonder I caught COVID. I’m so run down. I don’t feel appreciated.” And now this, and I lost it. And I was at home at the time, because again, it’s Christmas break. I’m at least working from home. And I just remember my husband coming in and giving me a big hug and I just sobbed, sobbed. And I was like, “I can’t.” And luckily we resolved that case, it got done. I got to take a little bit of time off afterwards, but I did tell myself, “You cannot let that happen again, that you’re just so burnt out. ” Part of that is on me too. I have people here, I have resources here, I need to be more collaborative and I need to ask for help where I can.

And I know that there are people here who can help me. And so part of that was on me. And then also part of it was remembering that the particular individual who sort of was the straw that broke the camel’s back, this person, their thoughts of me, their words to me, that is not a reflection of me at all that is 100% on them. And it’s important to recognize my own worth and recognize that this job requires a lot of work, but you got to figure out balance and you got to figure out strategies to get through it because this really is a marathon. You can’t sprint your way through it. So yeah, that wasn’t a great time, but it did teach me a lot about this profession and about myself.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. Sometimes the most important lessons are learned in the hardest way. And I think one thing that we can do and try to do better is not modeling burnout for younger attorneys or law clerks. And I think that the best way to do that is not letting it happen to ourselves and by taking time off and not being necessarily available during that time off and also giving those people, whether it’s paralegals that are working for you or law clerks or younger attorneys that might report to you, if they take time off, you set that boundary that you’re not going to bother them during that time off because that is one thing that I think happens to young attorneys all the time. Even if they do make the effort to take time off, they always seem to get brought into things. There’s that meme that goes like the please fix meme where it’s like just … You’ve never seen that?

Yeah. My brother said it about me once. It’s just like, you could tell it’s like a young associate with their laptop out at random things at a bachelorette trip or on Christmas Eve or just out at a bar. And it’s like the joke is that some partner sent them an email that just said, “Please fix.” And so they’re working at some random hours.

My brother used to always say that was me because the first thing I would do when I got to his house was pull out my laptop to do something, always do something.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I agree with you. And the thing that I tell anyone that I guess quote unquote reports to me, the thing that I tell them is, “Look, I may still be sending you emails because basically I need it out of sight, out of mind. I just need it cleared.” Do not respond. Do not respond to me. If there’s anything urgent, I will find someone else to take care of it. This can all wait until you get back. The other thing that I have been trying to do as well with my team is whenever they are communicating time off, I try to be enthusiastic about it. And I’m thinking of an example where someone recently came to me and was like, “Hey, is it okay if I take time off to go to this? ” And I won’t reveal personal details about this person, but it was a very exciting family thing.

This particular teammate was asking if they could take time off for it. And I responded, all caps bolded in red, “Yes, absolutely. Oh my God, you should go. ” Not only do I want you to go and take the time off, I’m excited for you to do that. So don’t feel … Because they almost approached it with a sense of guilt. And I can already see what’s brewing in this person. And I feel like it’s incumbent upon us as mentors and as examples for them to sort of nip that in the bud now, right? You deserve that family time. You deserve moments of joy in this life that are separate from this job. And so I think it’s not just enough to say, “Okay, thanks for letting me know you’re out. ” Be enthusiastic when people go on vacation or when they’re going to go visit people.

Or if someone’s saying, “I need time off to go see my grandma, she’s in the hospital.” I try to make sure I’m, “Hey,” when they come back, “Hey, how’s your grandma doing?” Checking in on them too. So it’s not just recognizing and communicating boundaries. I think it’s also recognizing and communicating that this is expected and we’re excited for them.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I think it’s important that if you’re a person who’s about to ask for time off or let them know, I think one thing I always did, if it was someone who wasn’t entitled to tell you yes or no, you’re just telling them that you’re doing it without asking for permission. I think that’s kind of a more powerful place to do it and just setting that boundary for yourself. But I think this has been a really lovely conversation, Liz, and hopefully we’re getting a lot of people out there thinking about how to push back and set boundaries to kind of curb burnout and not making working yourself to death a real competition because it’s kind of a loser’s game if you ask me. So thank you for joining us in this conversation. If you have any comments or questions, feel free to reach out to us at heelsinthcourtroom.Law and we drop episodes every other Wednesday, so we will talk to you then.

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