EP 912- Lessons from our Clerks

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Mary Simon:

Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. I’m Mary Simon and today we kind of have a group joining us and I’ll let everyone kind of introduce themselves. But before that I want to introduce the topic. We thought that it would be fun to have a conversation with some of the law clerks who are clerking at our firm this summer. And it’s kind of an interesting take because I think that we’ve done an episode in the past of talking about clerkships and what we as attorneys look for in clerks and giving interview tips and things like that. But now we kind of want to reverse that and have you all, the clerks who are actually doing the work at the firm, talk about your experience and how you got to be here and ask you some questions that may be listeners who are either attorneys that work with clerks or people who are wanting to clerk at a firm, how they can get some tips and advice from you all before they venture out to work at a firm.

So with that being said, again, I’m Mary Simon and two of my clerks are here, Katherine and Logan. So why don’t you two introduce yourselves, just say your name, what school you go to, what year you are, and then we can have my fellow colleague, attorney, Katie St. John here introduce her clerk and then we’ll do that.

Logan Goulet:

Okay. Yeah. Hi, my name is Logan Goulet and I am an incoming tool at the University of Missouri and I joined the team through on campus interviews.

Katherine Larson:

Hi, I’m Katherine Larson. I am also a Rising 2L at Washington University in St. Louis. I joined through on campus interviews, but I had heard about the reputation of the firm before and so I was really excited about that application.

Katie St. John:

And this is Katie St. John and I am joined by my law clerk, Jasmine. Jasmine, could you introduce yourself for all of our listeners?

Jasmine Rodriguez:

Yeah. Hi, my name is Jasmine Rodriguez and I’m a Rising 3L. And I also found out about Simon through on- campus interviews.

Mary Simon:

So thank you all for introducing yourself. That kind of gives us a lay of the land of who will be answering questions today. And also I love that we have clerks from three different schools, which is that doesn’t always happen here. A lot of folks come in through SLU, so it’s nice to have a spread and a representation of other law schools. So one of the first things that I was wondering is, I think all of you said on campus interviews. And as far as I know and that we know too, OCIs on campus interviews, it’s like speed dating and you’re doing all of these interviews. So why don’t you all tell us, Cathryn, I’m going to start with you. What made you say yes to this clerkship over other offers that you got?

Katherine Larson:

Yeah. Well, 1L summer job hunting was kind of like truching through the jungle without a machete. There just aren’t a ton of opportunities. And there are a lot of firms and a lot of people who are very upfront about the fact that they don’t hire 1Ls. And so I went into it with a mindset of, I’m looking for experience. I want to go into my second year of law school learning how to apply the law, not just learning about the law. And so I was really looking for those kinds of opportunities. And so I picked Simon Law because that was such an emphasis in the interview of like, “We will put you in and give you assignments immediately and those assignments will be used immediately.” So that was, I think, why I picked Simon.

Mary Simon:

What about you, Logan?

Logan Goulet:

Yeah, I will piggyback off of that. And I think also just I’m first generation. And so for me, on campus interviews, all of this was super new and very different. And so I leaned a lot on mentorship in law school. And so I did a lot of talking to two Ls and three Ls and kind of figuring out what is it that you looked for in a firm and what kind of things did you like? What did you look for? And so I actually got to talk to someone who clerked with Simon the year before and they said the same exact thing, just that you’re going to do real work here. And I also really liked that the clerkship continued throughout the year because I think doing the work is how you learn the most. And so that’s something that I was grateful for. And I think something that really stood out about Simon is that you can continue working throughout the year.

But again, yeah, just leaning on mentorship and hearing firsthand from someone who actually experienced it and was at Simon that they really enjoyed it gave me a lot of confidence that Simon would be a good place to be.

Mary Simon:

I didn’t know that there … Do you find out through your school that a law firm will say that they’re not entertaining one else?

Katherine Larson:

So for example, one of the firms I was looking at at a reception in October, I was speaking to him about potential jobs and he said, “Sure, I’ll look for your application in the spring,” meaning for next summer. But I was looking for a job this summer. That was pretty clear that it was only a 2L position.

Mary Simon:

Yeah. I didn’t even realize that because in my head I’m thinking law firms, it’s great to have this perspective because in my head being on the attorney side, it makes no difference to me. It just makes no difference to me. In my head, I’m just thinking we want them to be interested in the things that we’re interested in, which you both touched on in terms of one of the reasons why you chose to do it, like jumping into work, for example. And it’s just interesting to me that a firm would be able to block off an entire grade, but I guess it just depends on the different nature of the firm. What about you, Jasmine?

Jasmine Rodriguez:

Yeah. So kind of similar to where Logan where I’m first generation. So I really relied upon my fellow peers and their input as to different firms and the reputation that they had. And so Simon just had a great reputation and they do. And what felt really just comfortable and natural to me was with my on- campus interview with the attorney that I now work for on the team, Jared Waldhoff, him and I were just able to have a very natural conversation and we bonded over both being first generation. And I told him, I was like, “I am willing to work hard when I feel that my work is respected. I will go 100% because I want to, because I care.” And he made it really known that that’s how he had a kind of a similar vibe to that. Also, a big thing that we both kind of touched on that was important to us was that I was like, “I not only want to work with really good attorneys who are good at their job, I also want to work with … ” When they’re talking about their firm, they’re like, “Yeah, they’re also good people.

” And something that Jared, and in our interview together, he mentioned that he was like, “I think everyone here at Simon Law is in it for the right reasons in this field.” He’s like, “A lot of people sometimes aren’t in it for the right reasons.” You really emphasize, I think everyone here at this firm is in it for the right reasons. And so it made me really excited about whenever I left that interview of like, “Oh, I have a potential of maybe working at this firm and I’m really excited to be here.”

Mary Simon:

Yeah, we’re very happy that all of you are here. Is there anything doing OCIs that you all … One thing that all the firms do that you wish they just didn’t do in interviews? Yeah, I see head nods on everyone. Logan, what is one thing that …

Logan Goulet:

Okay. The biggest thing I think that frustrated me the most was that you have 20 minutes, and maybe this is just me, you guys can vouch for this, but the preparation for an interview, like full disclosure, I was stalking LinkedIns, that’s what you’re supposed to do. I think that’s what they tell us to do is research your attorney, research the firm and look at their LinkedIn, see what they’re posting about. So you do that for an hour the night before and you only have 20 minutes to prove that you are willing to take this … You are the one for this position. And then again, tell me if this was not your experience, but I feel like all the firms then would spend that 20 minutes telling you why they’re such a great firm and all the things about them. Oh,

Mary Simon:

Funny.

Logan Goulet:

And you’re like, “Oh my gosh.” But you leave a 20-minute interview and you’re like, “I didn’t tell you a single thing about me. You don’t know anything about me. You probably didn’t have time to read my cover letter.” It’s so good. So that part, I would always leave and be like, “Okay, it didn’t go bad, but who knows? They don’t know anything about me. I know that they’re great.” And it’s like, I already knew that because I spent an hour the night before researching them. Well,

Mary Simon:

That’s so embarrassing for lawyers, but

Logan Goulet:

I love

Mary Simon:

Hearing it though.

Logan Goulet:

Listen up lawyers. Yeah. Shout out to Jared, that was not my experience. I think it was natural, like you said, it was- It’s okay if it was- Conversational. No, and it was great. But yeah, that was the hardest thing for me was that it’s just so fast and you feel like you have to prove yourself in such a short amount of time and then you leave feeling defeated when it does not happen.

Katherine Larson:

Yeah.

I would say my biggest thing with the interviews, one 20 minutes is just impossibly short to get to know people to make an impression, but also I would walk out of every interview feeling like, yes, I got that. That was a conversation because they tell us if it’s a conversation, that’s good. And then I just heard back rejection after rejection. And I was sitting there for months like, “What am I doing?” And I think that just maybe the communication between firm to candidate needs to be better because I mean, it would be weeks between interview or rejection. I mean, not Simon. I heard back from Simon within the same day, but for everything else, there’s just so much sitting and waiting and thinking and being like, “Okay, wait, I thought I had a great conversation. Am I crazy or what’s going on there?”

Mary Simon:

Sounds like a nightmare.

Katie St. John:

Katherine, I can’t remember. Did you say you’re also a first generation? Yes,

I am. So I am as well and I can remember … So I actually, when I was in law school, did OCIs at SLU and that’s how I got … I was a clerk and I clerked for Kevin and Pat, but I think that there’s also, and maybe us lawyers don’t realize it when we’re doing the OCI interviews unless you are also a first generation, but there’s also an, I feel like at least you feel more pressure when you don’t have … When you’re the first one in your family to embark on a legal career and they tell you St. Louis is such a tight-knit legal community, I can remember feeling even more pressure when I sat down for an interview because I’m like, “I’ve got to get something. There’s no strings I can pull to get me in somewhere.” And so I felt like that was a little bit more of an added layer of pressure.

And of course I didn’t voice that in my interview at the time, but I don’t know. Jasmine, what are your thoughts on that?

Jasmine Rodriguez:

I completely agree with what you said, Katie. There is kind of that added layer of like, “All right, it’s just me. I just got to show them I’m more than just what is on this paper. I’m willing to do the work. I’m willing to work hard and I want to learn.” And definitely what you said about, I think that was kind of the thing that was most kind of frustrating is like, you’re like, “I got to land something,” but you’re waiting weeks in between to find out whether or not, was I rejected, was I not? And having these two, three interviews, which one thing that I liked about Simon was like, “Okay, I had my interview. Next day I was told yes.” So I appreciated that short turnaround versus kind of just being dragged around a little bit for months.

Logan Goulet:

I feel like a lot of my friends did have connections and I feel like that was a huge barrier being first generation is that you don’t have connections. And so again, that’s when I learned, I think, way too late in the game, but going to law school, you’re kind of building those connections without realizing it. And so that’s when I learned that I needed to, maybe I didn’t have outside connections, but leaning on the connections within the law school. And so a lot of, even just two Ls and three, you don’t think about it, but they’re all mentors. They’ve all lived it even if it was just for a year. And so we, even some of my friends, it’s crazy, but gathered an Excel sheet of like, okay, here’s some firms, here’s some people I know that worked there, they were willing to share numbers.

And I mean, even the person I talked to I had never talked to before. I was like, “Hey, I heard you worked at Simon. Can we chat about that? ” So again, I think it is super intimidating to go into a field where like, yeah, you don’t know anyone, but I think not being afraid to lean into that can sometimes be … I mean, for me it was super helpful because even if you don’t know anyone, for me, I thought it was helpful to go on their LinkedIn and be like, “Hey, okay, I know I can at least talk about this case that you guys had that I’m a little bit interested in. ” So even if it’s not like a personal connection, I think even just doing some research made me feel more comfortable in the interview process too. I don’t know if you guys agree with that.

Mary Simon:

I find that with students in OCI, I, especially when we’re casting such a broad net of any grade, any multiple schools, I want to spend the 20 minutes getting to know someone too. And it’s interesting because I do feel like depending on the … Sometimes I wonder what the schools instruct in terms of preparation for the interviews because I almost … I’ll look at the resume, maybe ask one or two things if something in there just seems pretty cool that I don’t know anything about that I’ll just ask, mostly because I just want to know what the candidate’s interested in even outside of law school because I’m like, “You all have a resume, you all have a cover letter, I’m reaching out to show interest in the Simon.” It’s all pretty similar. So all I want to do is spend the 20 minutes getting to know people.

And it’s interesting when you can tell some of those questions seem like, “Well, wait a minute, this isn’t a resume, this isn’t a very structured, this isn’t what I expected type thing because I can feel when a student is prepared to tell me about things they’ve seen on our website, but they’re not as prepared to tell me about when they went backpacking for a summer or something like that or like when they worked at an ice cream shop or something.” And those are the things that I will ask about because everything else, it’s kind of like I get it. We’re all struggling our way through law school and trying to get an internship. So it’s funny to hear both perspectives. So this is everyone’s first clerkship, right? Or no,

Jasmine Rodriguez:

This is my second.

Mary Simon:

So what are some things that you found helpful walking in first day to affirm and then what are some things that you think could be improved upon?

Katie St. John:

Jasmine, were we in trial? Johnny, Jared, and I were all when you started?

Jasmine Rodriguez:

No. So my first day was whenever we had that meeting and we were going over every single case. That was my first day.

Katie St. John:

I don’t think I knew that at the time. She’s referring to the day where Johnny and I and Jared and our paralegals sat in a conference room for approximately eight and a half hours. Oh, wow. Yeah, that’s a little bit, I think. And went over like 110 cases or something like that. Oh, with all of our cases, all three of us. And they just got shoveled out assignments. And Johnny actually did a little bit of law school cold calling, like why does this matter on this case? Good for

Mary Simon:

Him. I

Katie St. John:

Thought that was an interesting- Yeah,

Mary Simon:

That is. I’m

Katie St. John:

Surprised. But anyways, good for me. So thoughts on your first day, Jasmine? I mean, wow.

Jasmine Rodriguez:

Honestly, that to me, it’s kind of an ideal first day because it’s like, here’s the whole scope of the land. Here’s everything. Here’s every single case you’re going to work on, you might know about, this is everything. So here it is, here’s your assignments. Let’s hit the ground running. So that was kind of to me, I was like, “I like this. I don’t mind it. Just throw me in. ” And I think that’s just from my past experience of I’ve been serving tables since I was like 18. So sometimes you walk into the restaurant and they’re like, “All right, someone called out, you got an eight table section.” Okay, there’s a line out the door, you just got to go. So to me it felt very familiar, but also it was nice to be like, “Oh, okay.” I know generally about every single case that I’m going to deal with for the next year probably.

And yeah, to me, I was like, “Yeah, I don’t mind this as much as rather doing the orientation stuff.” I even got pulled out a little bit early of the orientation. They’re like, “Yeah, we need Jasmine right now.” We got to get her to work right now.

Mary Simon:

And I think I let you guys have the orientation because I didn’t know … And see, even me saying this, I’m like, maybe there should be more communication within the firm as to what the clerks are supposed to be doing on the first day because … I don’t really remember.

Katherine Larson:

So yeah, we had the orientation that was in the morning. They let us out maybe around- They let us out. Maybe around noon. And then I remember you sent us an email telling us assignments later that afternoon, I had no idea at all what to do. I was reading this email, it was an alien and then we were all sitting there at like four o’clock, are we supposed to leave? Wait, let me just say it’s

Mary Simon:

Because I wasn’t there and hang out with assignments. Maybe I am worse than Johnny in that regard.

Katie St. John:

She said at four o’clock they were all sitting in like, “Are we supposed to leave?”

Logan Goulet:

Okay, that is true. We were all like, “What do we do? ” Everyone’s kind of looking around like, “When do we leave? Do we clock out? What do we do? ” Yeah, the first list, I think mine was a petition and I just had to walk over and be like, “What’s a position? What’s a petition?” I read a petition before, is this supposed to be done by today? What do we think? Kevin’s like, “No way. No way. I don’t know. ” So yeah, we-

Katherine Larson:

Yeah, you were freaking out about that.

Logan Goulet:

So were you.

Katherine Larson:

Okay. I was freaking out because I’m like, I have no idea what this is.

Logan Goulet:

What is a medical

Katherine Larson:

Record sign? Yeah, I couldn’t find the case facts. I didn’t know how to do that yet. I didn’t know how to look in the folder. And so I’m just like-

Katie St. John:

Let me ask this. In your orientation and maybe us attorneys should sit in-

Mary Simon:

I’ll get ready to take notes here.

Katie St. John:

Yeah,

Mary Simon:

Go

Katie St. John:

Ahead. How do we improve? Maybe we should sit in the orientation so we understand what you cover because it is overwhelming when you start any new job, whether it’s law clerk or as an attorney, but it’s overwhelming because there’s different our document management systems and things like that. So in your orientation, what general topics did we cover?

Logan Goulet:

Okay. So to be fair, because I took a gap year, so I worked for a year and this reminds me a lot of it. And I think that there’s just naturally a learning curve. And I think that’s the biggest thing because we had a similar thing where we had a system that we used for managing all these documents. And for me, I think it took me probably a full year to even figure out, okay, now I’m extremely comfortable with it because I think you learn new things every time.

Announcer:

Sure.

Logan Goulet:

And so I think that was the thing is when we were trying to go … It’s a simple instruction of like, go find an example in the system that we use here, but we didn’t really know how to use the system. So it was like that part was hard. And they taught us, we did that in orientation. We went over the system and how to use it, but I think it’s just something that you don’t fully learn until you actually use it and feel a little bit more comfortable. Would you guys agree?

Mary Simon:

I agree. Catherine’s going to say no. Jasmine says yes.

Katherine Larson:

I don’t really think we were taught how to use the document management system and the orientation.

Mary Simon:

So that’s something that we should … I put system check mark. So I’ll make sure that’s an official note that we implement later. And also, just to be clear for the people who are listening, who may one day clerk with me, the email was nice though, right? Oh no, it was

Logan Goulet:

Very nice. It was

Katherine Larson:

Very nice. And no one asked you explicitly for assignments that morning. Yes. So you were responding to us, giving us assignments. We just were unsure. But the next day we had our case meeting and I literally told my dad that was the funnest meeting I’ve ever had in my life.

Katie St. John:

Oh, that’s awesome. Agreed.

Logan Goulet:

It

Katie St. John:

Was a lot of fun. Look at

Mary Simon:

Me asking those great follow-up questions.

Katie St. John:

Jasmine, was your meeting the best meeting of your life?

Mary Simon:

She’s like, “That point hasn’t happened yet.”

Jasmine Rodriguez:

It was a meeting. At one point you turned to me, you’re like, “Is your guys’ head hurting yet?” I was like, “Yeah, it kind

Katie St. John:

Of is. ” But seriously, all jokes aside, I mean, I think that there is something to be said when you … For myself, I know when you are thoroughly enjoying the work that you are doing and you enjoy the people that you are doing it with, you can have these fun conversations, the banter back and forth. But at the end of the day, I mean, the reason why we all are so busy is because there’s just a lot of great work to be done and we represent the most amazing clients. And so it’s so helpful to have law clerks like you three who are here, you’re ready to jump in, do what you can. You have a positive attitude, even if you might not know what a petition is or a medical summary, but you want to figure it out and you want to do your best.

So far, since you’ve been here, what have been the highlights? What are some of the cool things that you’ve seen or gotten to do yet or learned since you’ve been here?

Logan Goulet:

Okay. I’ll jump in just piggybacking off of my petition situation. I will be so real. And I bragged forever that I told all my friends and my family that I just drafted my first petition. And so yeah, it’s scary at first, but it is so fulfilling. I think that was my second day or something. And so you learn fast because we have the resources here, we have the people to … I think it’s just a matter of being comfortable enough to ask the questions. And it’s a simple question too, and it’s usually a quick answer. So stuff like that, it is very fulfilling. And I think that even circles back to the why Simon question. And you’re doing real work and I think that more than anything is fulfilling. And you can probably touch more on this too, but we’ve already gotten to experience such cool things that we’ve got to go to a trial and I think-

Katherine Larson:

The appeals argument? Yeah. That was awesome. The deposition, that was a lot of fun.

Logan Goulet:

Yeah.

Katherine Larson:

Short, but fun. Fun. That was

Katie St. John:

Fun. Yeah. What about you, Jasmine?

Jasmine Rodriguez:

I think a couple highlights. Well, my first week I kept texting my partner, I’m just so happy to be here every single day, I’m just so happy to be here. But I think what really was just a highlight of I would ask a question and turn to be like, “Yeah, you can sometimes tell when people are like, ” No question’s a stupid question. “But you can tell in the back of their head they’re like, ” That was a stupid question. Why’d you ask me? “And you’re like, ” Oh, sorry. “But I asked Johnny my second day and he told Bob and I, he’s like, ” Pick one assignment. “He’s like, ” Take your time. “We were like, ” Okay. “We took three days on that assignment and we’re like, ” We’re going to be so thorough with it. “But I asked Johnny a question and he fully broke it down from.

He’s like, ” This why it leads to this then. “And so seeing that big picture of that’s why it’s important to ask this question in the request for production or an interrogatory because it then leads to this point in the trial. And honestly, I’ll highlight too is just that first day getting to see all the cases we’re working on it, I was like, as soon as I got to hear about some of these clients’ stories, it’s like, this is the type of work that I wanted to do. These are real people, their lives were truly affected and just getting to have them hopefully have a sense of peace at the end of that, a little sense of justice for them and to know that their stories are heard. And also to be an attorney, to be a law clerk, to be a paralegal, to work in this kind of field, it is a huge privilege because you are their advocate and you’re their vessel for their story to be heard in a courtroom.

And it’s really important to treat their stories with care. And we had a lunch and learn and Jared, he was telling us,” Act like an attorney, act like this is your case, act like as if this was your own money. “But also in the back of my head, I’m acting like, okay, this is my client and how can I best ensure that their story is told and heard through this interrogatory that I’m writing, through this request for production, what is the best way that I can write this petition so that it survives that motion to dismiss so we can continue with that case?

Mary Simon:

And the reason why we had those meetings is because we have great leadership at this office who tell us the attorneys to make sure that y’all are feeling included in the why behind the assignments or the explanation when we’re talking about cases, but what are other ways that you think firms can make that better for clerks that you show up and you actually feel like the firm is wanting you to be there? Well,

Katherine Larson:

I think one example, and this was really impactful to me, but you gave me an assignment and one of the things that you told me is like, ” I really want to know what you think and I want to know, let me know what arguments you would make if there is any additional ones. “And so going into that assignment, I was kind of like, ” Man, what do I think? “And I didn’t feel afraid to write down,” I think we could add this. I think we could add this. “And so that was really impactful to me. I think also a lot of firms like to say that you’ll do substantive work. They love using that word, substantive, but here I know that the thing I’m drafting is going to get reviewed and then it’s going to get filed and then I can go see that it got filed.

And I just think that that’s something that other firms don’t do. You draft something and then it goes into the void of papers. So I think that makes Simon stand out.

Logan Goulet:

I know, and we’re kind of laughing about the fact that we had these big meetings that we talked about all of the different cases, but I think that was huge because I mean, one, we have our clerk teams too. Katherine and I work a lot obviously together, but even if I was hearing about cases that weren’t my specific assignments or my specific cases, I feel like it just gives you different ideas so that you can use … Mary, we always talk about using your own lawyering skills, being able to use that as a clerk here, which I think is really cool. But I think hearing the scope of cases gives me personally ideas for my own case that I’m working on by hearing what Katherine’s case is. And I think knowing the scope of them helps us. If I’m in a research rut, I can ask Katherine like, ” Hey, what do you think about this?

“And she knows what I’m talking about because we had that big overview. And I’m sure it’s hard because obviously you guys are so busy, so it’s hard to have those big meetings. But I think especially being on your first day, I think ours was our second day. So same thing. I think it’s very nice to have the time to do that, I think is worthwhile for us to be the most efficient that we can be by knowing the scope of the cases.

Mary Simon:

And it’s interesting too because firms work differently. We don’t have that many attorneys here. So it’s nice that … And we tell clerks this all the time, and clearly you all can feel it now, but it’s hard to get the message across of like, ” No, we need you to help us cases because there are only so many of us and so many cases that we love to work on, but we really appreciate the thought behind it. It’s not just these assignments in a vacuum. And I think that carries into different firms too, not even at the clerk level, but at the associate level, depending on a firm dynamic. And sometimes it works for people and sometimes it’s not their work style. So I’ve even had clerks before who would have no problem doing a … So if we have an assignment that could be due in a couple days, and then we always have ones that could take a longer time that we just haven’t gotten to because we’re working on a moral pressing deadline.

But I’ve had clerks before who didn’t have much interest in going to court or going to hearings, but they did great work, but they wanted to just sit at their desk and not in their own little world and get the work done, which I can work with that, right? We would talk enough that I would know what was going on, but it’s different work styles and different learning styles. And that’s why it’s helpful to know anyone who’s listening to this that’s thinking about our firm. It’s very collaborative. We try to make it very collaborative and not every firm is like that, but not every person wants to work in the same collaborative environment. They might say, give me the case list and give me the document management system. You don’t need to explain it to me. I’ll just mess around with it for a day by myself.

It just depends on the learning style. What are some things that you think that would make attorneys seem approachable to ask questions? I mean, and every attorney’s different, right? And I see people are … Everyone’s quietly laughing around the table. So I’m curious about that, but I don’t mean to pitch this as to say every lawyer at Simon is approachable, everybody’s different. So what are some things that you would tell lawyers, whether they’re even at a networking event that you’re meeting them, or they come and speak to your class, you know how they’ll have speakers come in? What about that attorney ends the communication and you think to yourself, “I’m comfortable sending that person an email.” And all of you are first generation lawyers, so you all are doing that. I know you’re all doing that. I know Katie, you did that. So it’s, what is it about attorneys that makes you want to reach out to them that they’re approachable?

Jasmine Rodriguez:

I think when you can kind of tell someone’s just being a little bit genuine, you can kind of tell that they’re not trying to put on this sort of persona of like, oh, they kind of meet you at your level and they’re not trying to be anything else than just themselves, whether they’re coming to speak at your school or they’re just in their office talking, even just having a door open sometimes makes it approachable or also just then also learn Getting each other’s communication styles. Just this attorney prefer that I text them or email them or do they want me to FaceTime them and be like, where are you? I have a question for you. What’s the best way to talk to you? But also it really does help when they’re just like, “Yeah, I have this thing. You want to come to it? ” Today we had a deposition and Katie had a deposition and the whole team was there about our clerks, Perla, Miguel and Bellman.

All four of us were sitting in there listening, taking notes. They’re like, “Okay, yeah.” And then we went back to our desks.

Mary Simon:

The word that I’m thinking of as you’re describing that is authenticity. Yes. It’s basically what you’re telling me is that you can read someone’s authenticity and when you can read it, you’ll engage with that person. But you can tell when it’s not an authentic presentation of whoever they are, which I totally appreciate. And I think that not only serves you well now in the position you’re in, but will be incredibly important moving forward in your career that you already know that. That’s not something you can teach.

Katherine Larson:

I think for me, what really helped me connect with attorneys in the area specifically with networking was getting to know them past what they do for work. When I am able to talk to someone about something outside of work or outside of being an attorney about at a reception, I was talking to a guy and he’s like, “Oh, I got to leave to my kids’ basketball game.” And I was like, “Oh, where’s your kid basketball?” And then that got us talking about basketball in St. Louis and high schools in St. Louis and all comes back to high schools in St. Louis. But I have always enjoyed conversations that let me get to know someone that’s just passed like, “So what do you do for work? You’re a litigator? That’s awesome.” I love litigation.

Logan Goulet:

Yeah. I think this is hard. I think again, because I worked for a year and so I kind of learned I’m always someone who wants to figure it out myself because I also like to … Yes, I know, Mary, you would answer my question very quickly and very easily, and I think that’s great, but I also try and have a good balance of respecting the fact that you are busy. And I also am someone who thinks … I personally, I think I learn from figuring it out myself sometimes. So sometimes I need to just struggle for a little bit and figure it out. And usually I learn a thing or two while I’m trying to figure it out. So I, for myself, I think have to dig into it, maybe ask a clerk first, maybe then go beg Caitlin to help me, and then maybe I come to Mary.

So I think having my chain makes me have the confidence that my question is not a stupid question and it’s a question that’s worth asking. So I think it’s a balance. And the hard part I think is interacting, at least me personally, with Mary or the attorney is probably the best way to figure it out because I think you just learn the style. How do you ask your questions? We just talked about how do you want your memos? Do you want my memo to be super formal? Do you want it casual? So stuff like that, I think it’s hard because I think the more you interact, the more you learn and the more comfortable you are.

Katie St. John:

I was just going to say, I mean, all of you kind of pointed on this, but that’s going to be super important as you continue to develop as young lawyers, finding your style and what works for you and not … Don’t try to be Mary or don’t try to be me or Johnny or whoever. You’ve got to find your voice and how you want to advocate. And we’re all here to be resources, but I think you’ve all picked up on that, which is awesome.

Mary Simon:

I’m going to ask you all to sum up either a word or a phrase that sums up your experience clerking so far, knowing that we’re, what, week three, week four. And then maybe what we can do is come back and do a part two at the end of each of your clerkships and see if this positive energy is still just flubbing through the room. So with that being said, who wants to start? I’ll let you guys decide. Whoever wants to start, say either a word or a phrase that sums up your experience here or clerkships in general.

Katherine Larson:

I’m picking a word and my word is new. I feel like every single thing I’ve done, I’ve never, ever done before. I am doing completely new stuff every day.

Logan Goulet:

I think mine is trust the process. And that’s something I told myself in law school too. But I think here, one, I thought I am so thankful that I listened in class and trusted my professors when they told me to trust the process because it’s so true that I feel like, again, yeah, didn’t know what a petition was and you learn so fast and each thing just kind of builds on the other. So I think trust the process.

Jasmine Rodriguez:

I think for me, the word is refreshing. It’s refreshing to come into work and something that I learned during CrimPro this past semester, I’m able to apply in the work here. So getting to use what I’ve learned in the classroom, actually apply it, and then just continue to build those skills of like, okay, in a few short years, we’re going to pass the bar, we’re going to be attorneys. And it’s just refreshing to see this is the work that’s going to be done. This is the process. This is what it looks like.

Mary Simon:

Those all sound fantastic to me. So thank you all so much for sharing your insight on clerkships. I think that this conversation will be beneficial to future clerks at this office and hopefully to offices for the attorneys who are listening. So with that said, thank you so much for tuning into another episode of Heels in the courtroom. If you have any questions or comments, please reach out to us at [email protected]. New episodes drop every other Wednesday. Thanks for tuning in. See you next time.

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