Law Firms Are Drowning In Cash. Trump’s PAC Is Drowning In Legal Bills.

Episode Notes

Transcript

Joe Patrice:

Welcome to another edition of Thinking Like a Lawyer. I’m Joe Patrice from Above the Law. I’m joined by others of the Above the Law team. I’ve got Kathryn Rubino here.

Kathryn Rubino:

Hey.

Joe Patrice:

And Chris Williams.

Kathryn Rubino:

Mayor Christmas.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah. And we are here to talk about the big stories from the week that was in legal, but we begin as we always do with a little bit of small talk. Yeah. Yeah. So spring sprung and then sprung back.

Chris Williams:

Yeah. We can talk about the weather if you would really like. It is very cool. It looks more

Joe Patrice:

Seasonal than weather, but yeah.

Chris Williams:

Well, I mean, those are not unrelated phenomena.

Joe Patrice:

I guess they’re a related phenomenon.

Chris Williams:

Yeah. But I’m not sure what else is going on in the world.

Kathryn Rubino:

I’m surprised. We had a little talk about this before the show that Joe opted to talk about the weather instead of talking about eating ass.

Chris Williams:

Well, there you go.

Joe Patrice:

Well, yes. And that is what we were talking about. We were talking about specifically donkey meat was how … Yeah.

Chris Williams:

Okay. I’ve been watching a lot of Winnie the Pooh with my toddler. So Ior is top of mind, but I’m not sure donkey meat is … Well,

Joe Patrice:

We were just chatting about- We were

Kathryn Rubino:

Chatting about libertarianism and how great it is in practice.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah. So beef … Well, this has come up because I was talking about how beef reached at an all time high. Going through the

Chris Williams:

Roof.

Joe Patrice:

Price of beef. Yeah. Nice reference. I think it’s meat in the Mr. Show, but yeah. But yeah, no. So it’s reached an all- time high and that led Chris to bring up the donkey meat point, which is for anyone who’s not following Argentina. They’re now eating donkey meat there, kind of a-

Chris Williams:

So not safe to be Ior. Another thing for him to be depressed about.

Joe Patrice:

It’s how it started, how it’s going about libertarian government policies.

Kathryn Rubino:

Yeah. And it’s funny because whenever you bring up … And this might be more of a debate thing, but I’m sure it happens in the real world if the real world exists. Shout out to Beatri art. But it’s like if somebody’s like, “Hey, capitalism is bad.” And they’re like, “What about all these other places whenever they try something different?” It’s just good to see the try something different stories from the left. I remember the story of the town that tried libertarianism and then the Bears came because nobody was taking out the trash and now they’re eating donkey meat in Argentina. It’s like, oh, if only there was something other than hyper capitalism to save us.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah. Well, what was the big box company that went out of, well, basically went out of business because of it? It’s either Siers or JCPenney, I can’t remember, but they brought in an Ine Rann acolyte who restructured the whole business to work that way and it promptly ran itself out of business. Also,

Kathryn Rubino:

And ran big benefactor of welfare.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Well, so the Donkey Meat situation, the way that it ties a little bit into legal is there’s a big ALM on Litigation Daily has a big article by Bob Jifre from Sullivan Cromwell. You might remember him as the person who negotiated all of the law firms surrendering- At

Chris Williams:

Least the initial ones, yeah.

Joe Patrice:

The initial ones of surrendering to Trump. He wrote a big piece about how the Second Circuit got it right when they wouldn’t allow a lawsuit to recover. Investors who’d invested in Argentina wanted their money back from defaulting with bad financial dealings, whatever. And Sullivan Cromwell successfully helped the Argentine government not have to pay that money. And in Jeffrey’s article, he talks about it would’ve threatened Argentina’s ongoing recovery. And I was like, “The ongoing recovery that is now donkey meat apparently.”

Chris Williams:

It’s a form of recovery.

Joe Patrice:

It does speak a little bit though to the bubble that exists for some folks because Argentina I think comes up a lot. It came up a lot during the Doge conversations. The Musk’s and the Trumps and the Jeffrey being part of that kind of universe all talk about how great Argentina’s doing. And then you hear from people who actually are on the ground and turning to mule that it’s not going all that great.

Chris Williams:

Isn’t mule technically horse plus donkey?

Joe Patrice:

It is. It is.

Chris Williams:

Yeah. It’s

Joe Patrice:

Across-

Chris Williams:

Slightly different.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah. And then what’s the other way? It’s a Jenny is the other way,

Chris Williams:

Right? Yeah,

Kathryn Rubino:

I think so. I was going to say, and it kind of reminds me of home because I’ll see the reports that are like, “Oh, Americans are struggling to afford increasing costs of living.” And then Trump cabinet face B is like, “Oh, they might say that, but they’re really feeling like they’re doing better than ever.” It’s like, eh.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah.

Chris Williams:

I don’t think anybody’s feeling like 2026 is A plus- Going

Joe Patrice:

Great.

Chris Williams:

Yeah. I mean, I don’t-

Joe Patrice:

Certainly if they buy gasoline at any point.

Chris Williams:

It’s going real bad.

Kathryn Rubino:

But that’s the fun thing about appealing to a silent majority. You can say they feel whatever you want them to feel in the moment.

Chris Williams:

Because they’re silent. Because they’re silent. By definition. Yes.

Joe Patrice:

All right. Well-

Chris Williams:

If we never ask them how they feel, they must agree with you.

Joe Patrice:

All right. Well, let’s close off there and start talking about topics of the week. The first topic, which is a couple of stories just kind of all rolled together from big stories of last week. We had the ALM numbers come out. We also had the vault rankings before that. We’re kind of really in the heat of ranking law firms by money. And we had the super rich ranking came out last week, which is an ALM ranking where they take revenue per lawyer and profits per lawyer, and they create a list of which law firms are super rich. They changed their definition this year because so many were meeting their old ones. Sure. So super has to change. So we’ve got among the super rich, WACTEL leading the pack, I think that’s driven largely by the partner numbers. And I mean, they make a lot of money, but we all see how Kirkland and Ellis is making way more money than everybody nominally, but they obviously have more people.

So the per lawyer part is doing a lot of work there. But Wachtel, Susman, Davis, Poe, Kirkland, Ropes and Gray, that’s your list.

Chris Williams:

Yeah. And it’s not a super surprising list. The per lawyer piece I think is particularly interesting because the one and two on the list are significantly smaller. They are under 300 lawyers, both of those firms. And that is teeny tiny. That is less than a high school graduating class kind of tiny. And I think that that’s really interesting, especially when you’re considering something like Kirkland, which makes the most money. They take in the largest amount of money. I think they were, what, 11 billion this year or over 10 and a half billion, something like that?

Joe Patrice:

Oh, at that rate.

Chris Williams:

Who cares? Who’s

Joe Patrice:

Counting?

Chris Williams:

Who cares? And they are significantly ahead of everybody when it comes to overall revenue numbers, but a lot of that is because they got more bodies doing the things.

Kathryn Rubino:

Question about the bodies doing the things. I know that law schools good accused of doing this to manipulate US news war rankings where they try to game the system. Sure. Do boy law firms ever do layoffs right before information cutoffs so they have the same amount of profits, but less heads to where they’re like, “Oh, we have more profits per lawyer,” but they don’t say it’s because

Joe Patrice:

They lay people off. That’s an interesting point whether they time layoffs to come out ahead on this. I don’t believe we’ve ever heard accusations of that. And part of that is that these numbers are a little janky. I remember

Kathryn Rubino:

There

Joe Patrice:

Was a fight several years ago that was kind of public where a friend of the publication, Bruce McEwen, was making the point that these rankings are all kind of nonsense because they’re all self-reported. Because law firms are not publicly traded entities, they’re just kind of telling us what their numbers are. We don’t really have any confirmable way of doing it other than what they say. And so because of that, it is diligent.

Chris Williams:

And these per lawyer numbers I think are interesting, but really I think the rankings that tend to get the most play tend to be the most prestigious, the ones people care about the most are the overall revenue number, even though we kind of know that Waktel is not going to be number one, but really they are doing just fine. And the per equity partner number, which those are the people who are making those decisions about who gets laid off. And so they’re not going to necessarily cut their own ranks to jury riga ranking. Right.

Joe Patrice:

But this actually does lead to a transition here internally to this story about law firm economics. Sure. Speaking of Wachtel and Kirkland, we had an issue where Kirkland needed a new lead for their kind of distressed debt practice and they-

Chris Williams:

They got one. They went

Joe Patrice:

And got one. And

Chris Williams:

They

Joe Patrice:

Got one by taking someone from

Chris Williams:

Wakel. Yeah, which is kind of a weird story in the sense that not many people leave Wachtell because they are super profitable. Tiny or firm, as these things go, as we just talked about, but wildly successful.

Joe Patrice:

But you can do that when you promise, when you guarantee the person that you’re taking away 80

Chris Williams:

Million. 80 million dollars. Yeah. That is right. It is guaranteed 80 million dollar three year package.

Joe Patrice:

80 million over three years. Now it sounds like, and now if you just turned into this show in the middle, you might assume you’re listening to an NFL show we’re talking about free agency, but that is not the case.

Chris Williams:

Joshua Feltman just joined Kirkland and Ellis from Wachtell based on that $80 million deal or package that we’re talking about. But Kirkland needed somebody because they had recently lost their own head

Joe Patrice:

Of that group.

Chris Williams:

Of that group to Simpson Thatcher. And especially, this is part of the story I think as well, which is that in 2026, you’re going to need somebody who does some distress network. In this economy, you’re going to need that. Well,

Joe Patrice:

What I was thinking of when I saw it was, I think it was Chris who covered this story back in the day. I think it originally was maybe the Times or somebody was talking about basket … It’s getting to the point where some of these lawyers are making basketball player salaries, right? Yeah.

Chris Williams:

Yeah.

Kathryn Rubino:

My thing is, you know that cliche about delegation? If you find a person that can do the job 80% as well, you delegate the task, they’re paying this guy 80 million over three years, like 26.7 over a year for like three years. They couldn’t find a guy who’s like the second or third past and give him like 60. Why him? If he’s the best, so why

Chris Williams:

Him? It’s because of their book of business,

Joe Patrice:

Who they bring in.

Chris Williams:

It’s the clients that they’re going to bring, the rest of the team potentially that they’re bringing in. And I think it’s also really important to note that it’s not just the three firms that we’ve already mentioned, Wachtel, Kirkland, and Simpson Thatcher that have done this. Bloomberg tracked, I think, nine partner moves over the last year in the distressed debt kind of restructuring space because I think everyone knows we’re standing on the edge of some real bad economic shit. And if you want to be countercyclical, if you want to have your law firm be profitable, even when the economy’s in the shitter, you’re going to need some of this countercyclical work. That’s why I think you’re seeing these over the top numbers in this space in particular, and you’re seeing so many lateral moves as anybody who has a decent book in this space is looking to secure themselves the best guaranteed money before the economy takes a real fall.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah. Yeah. It seems like building data centers and preparing for bankruptcy are the two potentially related practice areas that everybody feels they need to stockpile legal talent in right now. But anyway, that’s what’s going on. But I mean, it underscores the super rich argument, right? These are the firms in the super rich and they’re now starting to toss around $80 million guaranteed sorts of figures, which is wild, but it is sign of where we are. Let’s take a break here and we’ll be back in a second. All right. Well, speaking of billing, there’s another way that you can be a practicing lawyer, and that is to bill and then not get paid. It is a

Chris Williams:

Less-That is not great for your business.

Joe Patrice:

In the less successful way, arguably, to be a lawyer, but that is a path that some law firms go down and mostly law firms who decide to represent Donald Trump. When you do that, so we learned that the pack that he has currently been using to pay his personal lawyers is because they have to file for FEC filings because they are a political action committee. They are half a million dollars in the red

Chris Williams:

Row

Joe Patrice:

While they still owe somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.6 million to a bunch of lawyers.

Chris Williams:

Yeah. That’s not the color numbers are supposed to be.

Joe Patrice:

No, they should not be red. And the lawyers … Yeah.

Chris Williams:

But also buyer beware on the part of the lawyer. Yeah.

Joe Patrice:

But that’s the thing. So Susan Necklace is owed something like 660 grand for the Stormy Daniels case that she worked on. Another firm involved in that case is owed 112 grand. Sullivan Cromwell, we’ve already kind of mentioned in passing, they’re owed around 400 grand. But yeah, I think you’re right that this isn’t like a surprise. I mean, dating back for years, we know that this is a- Since like the

Chris Williams:

80s, he’s been stiffing lawyers.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah. Well, I heard a story, I heard an off the record story, so I can’t say who it was, but somebody told me that as a lawyer in the 80s, they won a case for Trump. He came into the party where they were all celebrating the case to tell them he’s never going to pay them. And that’s just the thing that kind of happens. Ultimately, he paid some amount of it, but they had to negotiate down. And this is kind of how he operates and has for years. There’s tons of lawsuits against him for failure to pay contractors that he’s hired, and this is just another part of it. And like you say, buyer beware.

Chris Williams:

Yeah.

Joe Patrice:

When you take on

Chris Williams:

This case- You’ve got to know this is your clients. Do you look at the bare amount of due deal? And it’s not even like these people know. Of course they know. Of course they’ve heard the stories. Of course, they think that either they’ll be different and it’s okay, or they think that the notoriety that they’re going to get from representing the president and the sort of culk following that he has will translate into other work that long-term will be to their benefit.

Joe Patrice:

Well, then there’s one other option, which is the option that several of these folks have managed to capitalize on, which is the in- kind payment. Sullivan Cromwell obviously owed a lot of money, but Sullivan Cromwell people get appointed to the Second Circuit and stuff. Personal lawyers, like Imil Bovo was a personal lawyer. He got to work to the Justice Department just long enough to have them engage in what to everybody except Trump judges on the DC Circuit looks like criminal contempt. And then he jumped from that into the Third Circuit. A lot of these folks, another personal lawyer of Trump’s is now up in the eighth.This is what happened. Todd Blanche runs the Justice Department at this point. So you can get paid so long as you want to get paid in government work. And if you’re a veteran, very highly acclaimed criminal defense lawyer like Susan Nicholas, you are not interested in working for this regime, you’re probably going to get stiffed on the backend.

Kathryn Rubino:

Yeah. Quick story tidbit. I don’t know if the law professors are still teaching Kavia Emptor. And again, this wouldn’t be relevant because these are people that I’ve already been through law school and should have experienced. But as I was at Washoe, my contract professor his name was Greenfield. It’s been teaching since it feels like the school was opened. But there was one point where we were in contract and I mentioned, it wasn’t in the reading, but I was just like, in my mind it was like, Byer beware. And I was like, so I raised a hand in class because surprise, surprise, I spoke in class and I was like, “What about Kavia Emptor?” And he looked at me as if I said, “Well, I’m all for the Second Amendment.” And he looked at me like I struck God in the face. He was like, “What did you just say?” And I’m like, “You’ve been taking contact for decades.

You know what I said? I didn’t say that. I felt it in my soul.” And he basically looked at me, he was like, “We don’t talk about that here.” So I don’t know what the youngers are learning now, but it may not be or beware.

Joe Patrice:

No, it is a bad time to try to represent Donald Trump. And by bad time, I mean all times have been bad for that for years. It’s true that some law firms that have worked with him do not appear on this list as being owed money. So some people managed to come out of it, but also those people include folks who work in the administration. I

Kathryn Rubino:

Mean,

Joe Patrice:

Ahaba’s firm like Harvey Dillon’s firm, they seem to be doing better than others as far as what they were owed for their time. Yeah. So very interesting, very sad. I framed my story around the arrested development meme where- There’s

Chris Williams:

Always money in the banana stands?

Joe Patrice:

No. Where Tobias and Lindsay talk about having an open marriage to deal with their marital friction. And Tobias is like, she’s like, “Oh, Lindsay’s like, does that work for those people? ” And he’s like, “No, no, no, it never does.” They delude themselves into thinking it will, but it always fails, but it might work for us. And that is basically every lawyer who takes on a Trump representation expecting to get paid.

Kathryn Rubino:

Yes. Tobias Funke is the only anal rapist I’m happy to see people-

Joe Patrice:

An alripist. I’m half analyst, half therapist. It’s an analopist. Yeah. That’s what’s going on. If you don’t want to get paid, by all means, feel free to represent the administration. I think, is there anything else on this?

Chris Williams:

I think we should come back after the break to do our final story.

Joe Patrice:

Ooh, that’s a good idea.

Chris Williams:

Yay.

Joe Patrice:

So our final talk, I figure let’s just kind of talk about the Supreme Court. There’s a few things

Chris Williams:

Going

Joe Patrice:

On there. Yeah. So-

Chris Williams:

Senate majority leader, John Thoon had some interesting comments about the court, namely that the Senate would be prepared to confirm any new nominee for the Supreme Court. Now there’s no vacancies on the court at the moment.

Joe Patrice:

Correct.

Chris Williams:

Let’s be very clear. Speculation has been speculating that Sam Alito’s on his way out the door.

Joe Patrice:

Right. So yeah, let’s step back and talk about that first, then we’ll talk about this. So Alito, obviously Thomas also could potentially retire, but there’s no real buzz around that right now.

Chris Williams:

Yeah. And people seem to, the speculation on Thomas is that he’s wanting to stay until he sets all the records for length on the court.

Joe Patrice:

At this point, why not? Yeah, exactly. Whereas Alito, the argument is that he is not really a judge as much as a Republican politician at this juncture. Correct. He understands how to read polls, understands that the midterms are going to- Questionable. Great. And that he might choose to leave his position to allow the Senate to ramrod a replacement in. Now, remember, when Scalia died, we were told that being within a year and a half of an election means you can’t do that, but apparently that rule north.

Chris Williams:

Well, I mean, they obviously quickly broke that rule when Ruth Bader Ginsburg passed away. But again, to the Alito point, his wife, Martha Ann, has been fairly vocal that she can’t wait for him to leave the public life. So there’s that kind of element to it as well. And then there’s his book.

Joe Patrice:

Right. And so that gets to the, what I was going to say was there are two camps on this. One by our old host of this show, Eli Mistall, points to the fact that Alito now has a book that’s going to drop right before the October term begins. He argues that that might be a sign that Alito is certainly not expecting to be sitting in oral argument when he should be out on a book tour. The flip side, our colleague, former colleague from above the law, David Latt argues that he’s probably not going to do that. There’s some reasons why we have now, I guess it’s, is it CBS reporting that they have heard from their sources that Alito’s hired his full compliment of clerks and does not expect for next term and doesn’t expect to retire. Now, that seems to suggest somebody’s not going to retire.

That said, Kennedy had hired clerks too, and then turned around, but who knows? So there’s a chance that he may retire, but probably not now. You said that the Senate is talking about replacements. Did they give any indication of who they would want in that seat?

Chris Williams:

They didn’t give any indication, just that whoever would be nominated, they were going to immediately kind of ram through the process. But there is speculation out there about who a potential nominee would be, something that even Donald Trump has mentioned, and that is a potential Supreme Court Justice Ted Cruz.

Joe Patrice:

Oh, get a Canadian on the court.

Kathryn Rubino:

I think the biggest issue is based off of his time in Texas is that as soon as a major case hits the court, he’s going to fly out because whenever there’s crisis, he’s on airlines.

Joe Patrice:

Can you hear oral arguments from Cancun? Because … Yeah. So Cruz and I’ve also heard Mike Lee, I think both of them have been discussed. They both obviously have experience with the Supreme Court, but it’s more that I think that nobody really likes them in the Senate and

Chris Williams:

Would love

Joe Patrice:

To get rid of them.

Chris Williams:

Well, that is what Trump actually said about potentially nominating Cruz is that he would get unanimous support in the Senate because they want to get him out of there.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah. And I mean, it’s smarter on another level too, because we’re now looking at what’s going on in the Texas Senate race for the seat that is not cruises. And if you’ve monitored this for any length of time, the Republicans dominate that seat historically winning by large margins. And Ted Cruz’s seat is always a bit of a nail biter because even in Texas, people don’t really like him. That said, now we’re looking at that supposedly safe seat is in real danger. I think they probably hold onto it, but the numbers do not look great.

Kathryn Rubino:

It

Joe Patrice:

Looks like a real nail biter for that seat, which would suggest that Cruz is very vulnerable going forward. So lock him up and try to get a more friendly and likable candidate.

Chris Williams:

Yeah. And do it while Republicans still have 53 seats so they don’t need his vote to get the nominee through.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, that would seem … And I also think that the lesson of the last few weeks, whether or not it’s justified amongst Republicans, they have taken the stance that they don’t … And Trump has fanned these flames, that Gorsuch and Barrett are not to be trusted. I don’t think that’s necessarily a fair assessment on Republicans’ parts. I think they’re very reliable votes for them,

Kathryn Rubino:

But

Joe Patrice:

They didn’t believe in this tariff case, so therefore they are not to be trusted. And I think it has sowed a lot of cynicism and distrust among Trump folks for the idea of filling that seat with an actual judge who knows what they’re doing. I think they want to pick somebody who is a actual politician in robes very clearly because they feel betrayed by the ones who have been

Chris Williams:

Jurors- Who are trying to be judges,

Joe Patrice:

Yeah. And even tangentially trying to be judges. I guess I don’t want to give them a ton of credit,

Chris Williams:

But- That is fair.

Joe Patrice:

But anyone even trying. And so I think given that that’s the state of play right now, and we also see this with Trump’s increasing attacks on Leonard Leo occasionally, where he calls him a sleazebag and all. It seems like the … And Leo, of course, was the controller of the pipeline of actual legally educated people into judgeships. So it would lean towards it being somebody more political. Now, would it be Cruz or would Trump elect to do something like try to get Bov moved up because Beau just got confirmed so he knows he can get through that probably with the same voters. That would be another person that would be a loyal hack that he could put up there and who is young, far younger than you would think if you actually looked at a picture of him. Because his picture looks like he’s like Roy Cone has been thought out, but as it turns out, he’s actually incentibly young.

Kathryn Rubino:

He’s a very rough 32.

Joe Patrice:

He’s not 32, but he is not. Yeah. He’s what? 45. But yeah, he’s one of those folks that when you look at … You ever look at old pictures from the ’60s and ’70s and they’re like, ” These people are all 40 and they all look like they’re on their deathbed. “People just aged badly.

Chris Williams:

Well, before we knew what skincare was.

Kathryn Rubino:

Yeah. I will say the only position of authority I think Ted Cruz should be in is Walmart greeter, but if he does make the court, it is going to be hilarious because whenever there’s a historical moment, there’s a nod to it like, oh, Justice Jackson was the first public defender on the court. If Ted Cruz, shame be upon him, sits on the court, he’ll be the first mass murderer, because remember when everybody thought he was a Zodiac killer?

Joe Patrice:

Oh, because the Zodiac killer. Yeah. Yeah. We could finally get that case fully closed if he were on there.

Kathryn Rubino:

And also, I don’t know why, but it seems like there’s a tendency for judges to be clean shaven when they’re on the court, but his face is so punchable. He has to keep that beard.

Joe Patrice:

That’s a good question. Who’s the last Supreme Court Justice with a beard, do we think?

Kathryn Rubino:

Yeah.

Chris Williams:

It’s a less Canadian.

Joe Patrice:

Well, right. Which he disputes. So I can think of the last Supreme Court justice with a beard that I would think of.

Kathryn Rubino:

For some reason, Taft comes to mind, but I don’t know why.

Joe Patrice:

Well, yeah, but Taft definitely did, but more recently than Taft, I would say Charles Evans Hughes had a beard of Hughes Hubbard.

Kathryn Rubino:

Is this the Roman thing that apparently white men tend to have a- Yeah,

Joe Patrice:

My Roman empire is-

Kathryn Rubino:

Your Roman Empire is which judges.

Chris Williams:

I guess Bork famously had a beard, but was rejected from that job. Did not make it. Maybe it was the beard.

Joe Patrice:

There you go.

Chris Williams:

Maybe it was- And

Kathryn Rubino:

You know, beards usually protect you from getting … Nevermind, that was …

Joe Patrice:

Wow. Yeah, no. Cory Booker. I’m thinking it may be Hughes.

Chris Williams:

Yeah. I think you’re right. I think

Joe Patrice:

You’re right. This could be the trivia question here soon of the day. It’s

Kathryn Rubino:

Such a strange thing to know off the top of the head, Joe, just to be honest. I respect it. I respect it. It’s weird.

Joe Patrice:

It is.

Kathryn Rubino:

You will face judgment, but hey.

Joe Patrice:

In fairness, he was a reasonably famous chief justice. I don’t know if I could have pulled a random associate justice, but famous chief justice was off top of my head. He did run for president and stuff. It’s not like he was completely out of nowhere.

Kathryn Rubino:

And even if you were pulling names from a head, it makes sense you would say him rather than O’Connor.

Joe Patrice:

Yeah, right, obviously. Let’s see. Yeah, I think that’s it.

Chris Williams:

I think

Joe Patrice:

We’re good. Right, good. All right. So thanks everybody for listening. You should subscribe to the show to get new episodes when they come out. You should leave reviews, stars, all that sort of thing. Make sure more people hear the show and our dulcent tones. You should be reading Above the Law so you read these and other stories before we talk about them. Oh, other shows, you should listen to the Jabo, Kathryn’s other podcast. I’m also a guest on the Legal Tech Week Journalist Roundtable. There are other programs by the Legal Talk Network to check out. You should be following on social media abovelaw.com on BluSky. I’m at Joe Patrice. She’s at Kathryn one. Chris is at rights for Rent and that will close us out. Peace.

Kathryn Rubino:

Peace.

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