Game Of Owns: The 2022 FedSoc Convention

Episode Notes

Transcript

[Music]

Joe Patrice: Welcome to another edition of Thinking Like a Lawyer. I’m Joe Patrice from Above the Law. As you may have noted by me not being interrupted, that means Kathryn Rubino is not with us. Apparently she ended up too scared by my use of sound effects. Weird but the show must go on so Chris has decided he could overcome my control of the soundboard and has joined us again. Hey.

Chris Williams: I mean I will admit I’m very hesitant. I’m worried.

Joe Patrice: Okay, I mean that’s fair. I understand everyone’s fear. Anyway, yeah, we’re from Above the Law and this is your weekly roundup of legal stories from Above the Law. And yeah. So we begin as per usual with small talk.

[Music]

Yeah, where we’re just going to introduce the show. Hey, how are you?

Chris Williams: I’m pretty good.

Joe Patrice: Good, good.

Chris Williams: I’m feeling amazing actually so the small talk is actually a big talk for those who are aware what this means. Over the weekend, I got 91 runecrafting.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Chris Williams: Yes, that means double natures. And I know you may be thinking, “Chris, who makes Double Natures especially you know when you can do Schuylkill like work f for money, right?” Listen, you can still make Double Natures when you’re doing Guardians of the Rift. So for the niche audience that knows what that means, they’re very appreciative of what I did. For everyone else, you’ll be all right. You’ll be addressed at some point later in the podcast.

Joe Patrice: Yes, I think that’s fair. So yeah. It’s been a rough up-and-down week but ultimately I think we got to got bad news like good news then I got bizarre news. And the bizarre news I think is going to be a subject of our real conversation so I’ll kind of save that.

Chris Williams: Could you give like any context as to what you said because all of that was like when the adults talk on Charlie on, what’s the thing? You know, you’re old. There it is, yes. You gave no details whatsoever about your week.

Joe Patrice: Well, right because the bizarre turn is going to be the subject of the actual show.

Chris Williams: No, let me clarify. What you said was some stuff happen, some stuff happened and weird stuff happened and we’ll talk about that later. You didn’t give any context about the normal stuff that also happened.

Joe Patrice: Right. I mean I didn’t think people want to know that my cat died.

Chris Williams: It’s small talk but also damn Joe. I’m sorry to hear that.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, no. Unfortunately, she was almost 14 so it was around that time. But yeah, no, it was bad.

Chris Williams: That’s family. Family losses are rough.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. No, and her sister’s a little confused down there but yeah. Anyway.

Chris Williams: Down there being because the cats are in the basement, not because her sister is dead? For those who aren’t familiar.

Joe Patrice: Yes. Their food and water is downstairs so they tend to hang out by that. Anyway, it was a week. Anyway, we’ll transition I guess out of small talk into the other side of the emotional roller coaster with our — that officially means we’ve ended small talk.

So let’s discuss what happened. As some of you know, the Federalist Society is an organization which bills itself as a nonpartisan debating society. That billing is somewhat –.

Chris Williams: Wait, that’s what they do? I thought they were just like Chick-fil-A sponsors.

Joe Patrice: That is what I think a lot more of us think happens with the organization. This is its 40th birthday and they just had their National Convention where they gather together all of their completely nonpartisan membership to discuss what they discuss. That is of some dispute. They say they –.

Chris Williams: Soft fascism, cough, cough.

Joe Patrice: Well yes. No, as I call them FascSoft(ph) or FascSoc, yeah FascSoc. You got me with the soft part in there. But FascSoc. It did get together to have their conversation and to revel in how they’ve legalized an individual right to have guns that never existed in this country until 14 years ago and how they got rid of the Ninth Amendment penumbra that has justified abortion and basically the right to privacy and contraception for almost 50 years. They’ve gotten with that too.

Chris Williams: Shout out to the NRA by the way. Great job.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Chris Williams: I know there’s like all those talk about the religion. When you talk about propagandizing, the right is doing a phenomenal job of marketing ideas as common sense.

(00:05:06)

Joe Patrice: Well, the gun thing is an excellent example. It’s become almost cliché at this point to point it out but Warren Burger, the former chief justice, a very hard right jurist, he has this famous video clip in the 90s where he’s explaining that obviously, no one who’s a actual legal mind seriously believes there’s an individual right to guns and he goes through it and explains it. And yeah, it’s been basically memory hold that even the right-wing thought this was a kooky theory until about two decades ago. But now, everyone just kind of acts like that’s what the Second Amendment means despite 200 years of everyone agreeing that that was not what those words meant but good point.

Anyway, so the Federalist Society is an organization of concer — it’s basically the front of the conservation movement. It calls itself nonpartisan to avoid the sort of tax implications of being a partisan organization but we all know what it really is. That said, they are committed to the bit of explaining that there’s no way that they really are just a vetting organization to streamline the promotion of future right-wingers. And in their opening remarks for their little show last week, they decided to bring out Eleventh Circuit Judge William Pryor who decided to talk a little bit about all of the people who think that the Federalist Society is something else. And he said stuff like, well you know, let’s just go to some clips.

Judge William Pryor: Now, if you’re new to the Federalist Society or find its mission statement obscure, worry not. One of the great journalists of our time at a venerable institution for investigative journalism, I speak of course of Joe Patrice at Above the Law.

Joe Patrice: So at least I got a laugh I suppose?

Chris Williams: Oh damn.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. It was great. I really enjoy when federal judges breach probably the code of ethics to call me out to their simpering gathering of fans so that’s awesome. But yeah, we’ll keep going here with the rest of his sterling, his sterling insight about what I said.

Judge William Pryor: Has distilled the work of the society into three steps. Three steps. First, lay the pseudo academic table for the MAGA movement. You heard that right? The pseudo academic table for the MAGA movement, whatever that means.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Chris Williams: It was a phase.

Joe Patrice: Is this guy just like deliberately stupid?

Chris Williams: You think a person involved in legal interpretation will be able to understand what lay the foundation for the MAGA movement means.

Joe Patrice: I mean this is just kind of what the whole speech was and we weren’t in. Obviously, he also goes after Ellie and –.

Chris Williams: What’s the second point? The second point maintain the systems with which we ignore how white supremacy impacts the legal system.

Joe Patrice: It doesn’t say that but we will move on to number two if we’re ready.

Judge William Pryor: I can recruit students to indulge their trollish impulses while placing them on grease trails to the federal bench. Apple trap house at Yale, yes.

Joe Patrice: Hold on, we got more.

Judge William Pryor: It sounds painful.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Chris Williams: Also conservatives have (00:08:50). Never mind.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, no. No comment about Judge Pryor there. But yeah, that wasn’t exactly my most lyrical prose I realized. That was a difficult copy to read. Actually, I guess it’s got a little bit more to it and then we get to the third one.

Judge William Pryor: And third. Now most of all, this most important of all, this is key. “Serve Chick-fil-A.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Chris Williams: There’s no question there.

Joe Patrice: As I pointed out in my actual piece had he actually quoted all of it, I do make some points about how that is. Those are all three political statements but yeah.

Chris Williams: By the way, I feel like one of the undercurrent and you may not admit this, no, I’m assuming you meant this. He may have gotten it because clearly after the first point, there’s a clear skill issue when it comes to reading. Support Chick-fil-A probably has implications with better supporting homophobia like conversion therapy and shit like that.

Joe Patrice: Oh yeah.

Chris Williams: Because like one, as a person I like to crack jokes in my spare time.

(00:10:00)

That’s some stolen valor. You are clearly making a joke. He delivered it as if it was his idea. That’s what Carlos Mencia type shit.

Joe Patrice: Well, no, and if you heard, I got the biggest laugh for that line of this whole like bad comedy routine. Like I deserve royalties for the speech. Anyway.

Chris Williams: What’s the deal with Above the Law type energy.

Joe Patrice: Well, and it’s not just us, there are slate attacks and stuff like that. But don’t worry, the Above the Law attacks continue with this.

Judge William Pryor: For the students in attendance dreaming of becoming judges, in the past I would have advised you to study hard, get good grades, become an editor of the law review, get a clerkship to start your career, practice at a law firm and perform public service. But Kathryn Rubino at Above the Law tells us that, “Thanks to this society, ideological purity and pursuit of a far-right agenda is the single most important bona fide for conservative nominees and no less an authority.”

Joe Patrice: Now, we’ll stop there. No, no. These people tried to nominate a ghost hunter. They tried to put a ghost hunter on the bench and then they did put an associate on the bench.

Chris Williams: Wait. For those who aren’t in the know and by that I mean me, what do you mean by ghost hunter?

Joe Patrice: They tried to put an amateur host hunter on the bedroll bench.

Chris Williams: It’s like a metaphor for like the ghosts that haunt us?

Joe Patrice: It is not. None of this is like metaphor.

Chris Williams: You’re talking about sexualism, right?

Joe Patrice: No. This is straight up a guy who’s only seeming qualification was that he wrote online about how he can find ghosts. Like he was a ghost hunter. He however also is a Federalist Society member and all and they tried to give him a federal seat. And it was going through the system until eventually Mark Joseph Stern and I made so much noise about this that even Republicans on the Judiciary Committee had to go, “Okay, we can’t do this.” And that was the only reason that didn’t happen.

Chris Williams: I would say this is surprising but like the whole, their whole like interpretive movement is like using a Ouija board to dick ride what the founding fathers would have interpreted the law to mean.

Joe Patrice: I mean, yeah. So ghost hunter probably would have done better. Anyway. And then they put a woman who was a clerk only two years ago or only a year ahead before putting her on, yeah. It’s ridiculous and this is a theme of this whole speech. Quoting us as well as some other legal commentators for saying stuff that is fairly damning about the society and then shrugging and moving on like no attempt to respond to any of this or suggest it’s not true because obviously it all is. But yeah. No, there’s one more attack on Above the Law. Let’s see what happens with — let’s see if he comes up with anything more remotely intellectually captivating here.

Judge William Pryor: Ms. Rubino at Above the Law explains that recent decisions by the Supreme Court on abortion, the establishment clause, the Second Amendment and the administrative state have created a “hellscape” that can be laid directly on the door stop of FedSoc. So if you’re a judge, this convention offers you a unique educational opportunity to get ahead of the curve and to start work on the sequel Hellscape 2.

Joe Patrice: That was funny.

Chris Williams: What kind of evil as dark force laugh was that? Who laughs at the joy of a hellscape except the people who are the devil’s prodding everyone else. Like this is to invite itself.

Joe Patrice: I mean I did get the best laughs so I am happy with my role in this but Kathryn got mentioned twice obviously because Judge Pryor really has a burr in his saddle about Kathryn as Kathryn has been, as we the regular readers know, has been very on top of how Judge Pryor is of course the person who decided to hire the “I hate black people” clerk, Crystal Clanton who was fired from turning point, a right-wing organization for making comments about how she hates all black people and Pryor has given her a Circuit clerkship. And Kathryn’s been covering that so obviously Pryor has some hard feelings about Kathryn. But yeah.

Chris Williams: And also this isn’t surprising because and I repeat, this is not ad hom, it is documented. You can look it up. FedSoc doesn’t like women. And I say that because according to FedSoc members who were women, they quit the group because there were all sorts of talk about how they were discriminated against. Right. I feel like you have to do, well I see it as the problem. When you’re not in a position of power, you can do things besides laugh when somebody brings up legitimate claims about how you’re wrong.

(00:15:04)

Joe Patrice: Yeah. I mean it was really indicative of the whole movement that it’s just repeat statement that is objectively true. Shrug and laugh and move on. There’s no effort to respond to any of this.

Chris Williams: I really do think it is indicative of a greater theme because like for example, Dylann Roof before he shot up a black church, he had a whole manifesto and (00:15:32) is like the white extinction conspiracy what have you and then not to like maybe like a year or two later, there was a Republican National Congress that have the we are we are all domestic terrorists thing.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, CPAC I believe.

Chris Williams: Yeah CPAC is a clear association of why Christian nationalism, domestic terrorism right-wing groups but they’re like to saying it is like a thing they can like laugh off as a joke. And I really do think that it is something indicative of challenging the notion of speaking truth to power still has some strength to it because like a lot of people are like, “Oh, we have to spread information. We have to point at the people in authority and tell them what they’re doing is wrong.” Sure they were not being (00:16:15) anymore. Don’t just say it. They just say it now and laugh.

And I’m not sure that people who are trying to like think about ways to hold people accountable are factoring in that speaking truth loses its force when they tell you the truth. Like how do you hold them accountable as terrorists when they’re like, “Yeah, we’re all domestic terrorists.” And is clearly a white Christian thing because like imagine if Muslims had something like that. Their response would not have been tongue-in-cheek.

Joe Patrice: You know obviously the difference of course is that the Federalist Society is a nonpartisan debating society.

So it’s been a busy time.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, you know how I know it’s busy?

Joe Patrice: How?

Kathryn Rubino: Because we’ve had the phone ringing off the hook.

Joe Patrice: Off the hook. Is it really on a hook?

Kathryn Rubino: Well, and you know I think that it’s one of those phraseology.

Joe Patrice: Those idioms that you’re just not going to let go of?

Kathryn Rubino: I’m not going to but you know what I will let go of, my need to actually answer the telephone.

Joe Patrice: Okay.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah.

Joe Patrice: How would you do that?

Kathryn Rubino: Virtual Receptionist Services.

Joe Patrice: All right, that make some sense.

Kathryn Rubino: Yeah, it really does.

Joe Patrice: So let’s hear from Posh about that.

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[Music]

J. Craig Williams: Today’s legal news is rarely as straightforward as the headlines that accompany them. On Lawyer 2 Lawyer, we provide the legal perspective you need to better understand the current events that shape our society. Join me, Craig Williams, in a wide variety of industry experts as we break down the top stories. Follow Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk Network or wherever you subscribe to podcasts.

Joe Patrice: All right. Well, let’s talk about the next shoe that fell. So, after Judge Pryor gives this speech where he jokes around about how crazy we all are for suggesting that this is a right-wing ideological organization as opposed to a perfectly innocent nonpartisan group, what happens to the founder of Federalist Society?

Chris Williams: Well he gets ousted for — I mean it’s hard to come up with something clever and he gets ousted for daring to say that racism is a thing.

Joe Patrice: Clarify the record. He does not get ousted so founder and current co-chair of the board of the Federalist Society Steven Calabresi, he does not get ousted but what we do learn is that he is informed by the board that he is not allowed to tell people that he is either the founder or a co-chair of the board. He has basically disappeared in a very Stalinist sort of way from his roles in the organization. He can still have them but he’s not allowed to tell people about this. And what he did is inform because he’s clever. What he did is inform Nina Totenberg that he was not allowed to call himself those things. He did not say that he was those things. He just said I have been informed by the board that they have voted that I’m no longer allowed to call myself the founder or co-chair despite the fact that those are real facts.

(00:19:59)

But go on. Yeah, I just want to clarify he’s not ousted. He is marginalized. He has sinned against the politburo and he is therefore persona non grata.

Chris Williams:  That is fair. He’s not ousted. He’s in position where maybe he will have to like I don’t know what will be the FedSoc equivalent of saying Hail Mary’s like funding Chick-fil-A at the next, why hate speech is actually good lecture at Yale.

Joe Patrice: Eat 30 chicken biscuits.

Chris Williams: He clearly did a boo-boo by saying things that could be found in a textbook for now until like laws make it illegal to put them in textbooks.

Joe Patrice: So what happened here to give the full context to his, the Yale Daily News had written article talking about how the Federalist Society donors, a fairly shadowy group of folks, Federal Society donors to the extent people can work out who they are were — had a tremendous overlap. Surprise, surprise with the people trying to — who’ve launched the case that will inevitably result in the Supreme Court striking down affirmative action. This prompted –.

Chris Williams: By the way, moment of silence for white women who will be the largest demographic impacted by the overturning of affirmative action.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Chris Williams: Just moment of silence to them. Okay, go.

Joe Patrice: Thoughts and prayers. So anyway, this story comes out, Calabresi who’s a professor at Northwestern, he responds by criticizing Yale Daily News for claiming that the Federalist Society is against (00:21:32) which is not what they did. They say that they have the same, their donors all travel in the same circles which is the sort of thing that happens when your organization is not actually a non-partisan debating society but a right-wing think-tank.

Anyway he says this and then in an effort to do what Pryor failed to do, in an effort to show how truly nonpartisan and a big ten the Federalist Society is, Calabresi notes in his comments that he in fact is a strong supporter of affirmative action personally and both in employment and in faculty appointments. He talks about how he has supported the tenure grant to law professors who teach critical race theory because he thinks that’s important to be taught. And he says that he personally supports reparations for slavery and segregation.

These are comments he said and we’re not saying that those are connected but what we are saying is, as soon as he says that, he is informed by a vote of the committee that he is no longer allowed to call himself co-chair or founder.

Chris Williams: And what was the second point that the lecturer gave about FedSoc?

Joe Patrice: My second point, the grease trails one or what?

Chris Williams: Yes. What was the second point again?

Joe Patrice: That it’s just a vetting organization to find law students that they can — whose careers they can hype in a streamline to the bench.

Chris Williams: I get it wrong. I thought there was one point where he was like you were forcing like ideological conformity and I was going to say that them ousting a founder is a clear example of the thing you were describing.

Joe Patrice: Look, the revelee needs its children, right? And then the (00:23:17) that’s found her.

Chris Williams:  I guess they ran out of chicken sandwiches.

Joe Patrice: Oh yeah. So, yeah, that happened. Let’s do one more tidbit from that before we move to sadder news. So before we do that though, let’s talk. Paul Clement showed up, former solicitor general. He had some complaints.

Chris Williams: Yes. And of course it was the word that the right is using now instead of saying what they mean and meaning what they say, they just call everything woke, you know. You know the new little mermaid is woke. Lizzo playing the flute is woke. I don’t know. Affirmative action is woke. Joe Pesci is probably woke at this point but there was a some conversation where he was like, “Oh yeah, the law firm is a too woke now because they won’t let people defend gun companies and because law firms are taking on clients that are too woke.

And I’m reading this I’m like, “Are these like the free market people?” Like what’s the fault in a company adapting to the demands and interests of its customer base? Like, what happened? What happened to free choice? You know.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. So this all ties back to Paul Clement represented the folks who made sure that school shootings are never going to be stopped pursuing the brewing case to the Supreme Court where he won and which point Kirkland & Ellis said, “Let’s not be associated with you anymore.” This prompted him to found his own boutique but also write this op-ed where he complained about how law firms have it in for him.

(00:25:04)

And he’s carried that on to the Federalist Society meeting whereas Chris was describing he continues to complain about how law firms are woke and all as opposed to basically capitalist. Because part of the reason they fire people like this or pressure, point to them that they do not have a future there I think is probably more accurate is because, like you said, they have other clients who have interests and those other client’s interests tend to be, they don’t want to be associated with folks who make it easier for children to get murdered.

That was certainly Kirkland’s take. That was the take of Clement’s previous firm who originally pushed him out after he was aggressively trying to make sure gay marriage never gets legalized. They just don’t want this around because it hurts their reputation with other clients and it doesn’t generate a ton of money. Like look, he bills a lot. Like he has a high billable rate because he is admittedly a former solicitor general and one of the more talented and routine practitioners in front of the Supreme Court. But like that business, even though like the individual hour might be a lot, is not a ton of money.

I mean look, I’ve spoken with a bunch of supreme court with litigators over the years and yeah, they do well but like compare them to an M&A partner, it’s no contest. You got M&A partners bringing in 40, 50 million dollar books. This isn’t what these guys are bringing in. In particular, Supreme Court cases always exist as prestige cases basically because most of the time like occasionally, a major corporation ends up there but a lot of time you’re representing somebody probably pro bono and it’s for the principle. It’s to say, “Hey, our firm was at the Supreme Court.” It’s not so much billable all the time.to that extent. Why take a reputational hit that’s hurting you with the partners who are actually bringing in 20/30 million of pop so that you can get around doing pro bono work and bringing in maybe a couple mil. Like there’s no logic to it. And that’s why they don’t work there anymore.

But don’t worry, yeah. As you said, the Federalist Society was very eager at this meeting to complain on Clement’s behalf. Like do we want to live in a world where big law firms care more about that than being in front of the Supreme Court? And it’s like, yes.

Chris Williams: Yeah. I’m sorry like — and this is –.

Joe Patrice: This is dollar, dollar bills.

Chris Williams: And this is when those things were I factored in though why are the people that complaining costly about censorship? Why are they not shutting up yet? It was an old thing where you were saying like, “Oh you know these firms are too woke and are not allowing us do our profession.” And then some dude was like, “Yeah, well you know, I think they’re too woke too” and he was like, “Come work for me.” It’s like the people who are being affected are in a position where they can just hire people at whim. Like these are ostracized woe is me professionals who are discounting for a buck. It’s literally the guy. Like the guy who has all the rank and authority complaining that he can’t openly bash gay people and say, “What about gun murderer people? They’re great too.” Like tough shit.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. It’s all a performative public relation stunt functionally. And you know, it’s sad that the Supreme Court opinions which guide the way our whole world operates are functionally publicity stunts but I mean that’s in a lot of ways what it is. And I don’t mean to demean it but as far as a lot of firms –.

Chris Williams: I do.

Joe Patrice: Well, okay. But as far as a law firm’s perspective, yeah. And that’s why you see some of the more successful Supreme Court operations are boutiques that concentrate on that work and they are very successful at what they do. But the reason it doesn’t fit or rarely fits, obviously some folks like Neal Katyal at Hogan Lovells so obviously that works, but many of these places aren’t able to make a Supreme Court practice necessarily work outside of being a publicity factor like Jones Day et cetera is because deep down, the money isn’t there.

And if you want a law firm to maximize profit which theoretically is what it’s there to do then yeah like if the cases that you are taking on aren’t helping you get that business. And with Jones Day, maybe it is. Jones Day pursuing their, “Hey, we think that everybody who voted in Philadelphia shouldn’t count case, which is one that they pursued during the last election, that might help them get corporate clients because that’s the kind of clientele they like to go for.

(00:30:10)

But Kirkland, Kirkland is more button up and they don’t like when they’re big banking clients come back and say, “This gives us out.” Anyway.

Chris Williams: I’m just interested in seeing how the Twitter debacle is going to fall out in the law firm area because with Elon fucking shit up for advertiser. I wonder how that’ll play out in court.

Joe Patrice: Well, let’s take a break and then get to that.

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Kathryn Rubino: Domains were definitely not covered in my law school classes.

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All right, we’re back. I do want to like to follow up on that just real quick. There is a law school hypo that is going to be written about the fake Eli Lilly account that said, “Insolence free and therefore crashed Eli Lilly’s stock price.” That seems like somebody is going to make a case out of that.

But let’s talk about tech and law because we are having some layoffs.

Male Speaker: Layoffs? Who talk about layoffs? You kidding me? Layoffs?

Joe Patrice: And with the layoffs, we now have more. I know we’ve been talking about stealth layoffs but we have more coming from Gunderson. We’ve got Cooley and Kirkland as we talked about different issues involved in those like the Kirkland might have just overhired — we’re hearing of a magic circle firm that’s not confirmed but that is also suffering from maybe overhiring during times that are good.

But the Gunderson, Cooley Group seems to be tracking the tech world. And I mean, where these are big valley firms with a lot of tech-oriented business. The fact that they are suffering layoff seems to be following the fact that you’ve got Facebook taking a dive laying people off. You’ve got Elon doing whatever the hell he’s doing there. You have crypto deciding to out itself as a basically a Ponzi scheme. These are not good for firms that thrive in that kind of tech market because even if they aren’t representing those people, they’re representing funds that have business there.

We talked about this on the previous show but like whether or not this can stay cabined is going to be a real thing. And since we talked last time, we’ve gotten more reports suggesting that maybe it isn’t going to be cabined.

Chris Williams: By cabined, do you mean will it spill over, will or will it not spill over into sectors?

Joe Patrice: Right, exactly. Yeah. Whether other firms are going to face this. It’s going to be an interesting bit here.

Chris Williams: Well my thing is, I just want to know what happens when a whole bunch of like venture capital bros, when their capital crashes like how will that affect the market.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, I mean –.

Chris Williams: Because like right now, it’s just tech. People associate crypto and Bitcoin with like tech but you know people diversify their portfolios. Besides real estate?

Joe Patrice: It’s going to be a thing. You would think real estate would start facing something because interest rates are clearly — well, interest rates are going up in a way that should be impacting mortgages — the ability of people to get mortgages. But yeah, so far the value seems to speak holding. We’ll see. Anyway, is that everything?

You should be subscribed to the show so you get new episodes when they come down. You should give reviews, stars, write something. You should listen to other shows that were on. Kathryn is on The Jabot but she’s not here so whatever. You should listen to the Legaltech Week journalists’ roundtable where I’m a panelist talking about Legaltech. You should listen to the other offerings of the Legal Talk Network. You should be reading Above the Law because that’s where we write all these things and more. There’s even more stories that we don’t even get to. You should — yeah, no. It’s true. It’s so true. And you should be following us on social media. I’m at Joseph Patrice. He’s at Rights for Rent and the blog is at ATL blog. You can get the stories drop that way. And then I think with that, we are completely done. Thanks to sponsors and that’s it.

[Music]

Chris Williams: Thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to our listeners and thank you for our haters who give us very easy sound bites to make more content with.

Joe Patrice: It is true. Thank you so much to the Federal bench. All right, talk to everybody later.

And thank you as always to Posh and GoDaddy Domain Broker Service for sponsoring the show.

Kathryn Rubino: Thanks.

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