Game Changing Insights for Brand Building Success

Episode Notes

Transcript

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Conrad, we are sharing a hotel room.

Conrad Saam:

We are currently in Atlanta at the Crisp Game Changer Summit. Every chance I get to see, Gyi, I do. So we are in fact not sharing a hotel room

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Just for the record.

Conrad Saam:

Just not that there’s anything wrong with that, but yeah, we ran into each other at the Game Changer Summit. We see each other in person all that often. It is raining in Atlanta, which annoys me when I leave Seattle during the winter and it is raining. That is just a loss for me. When we get back, we’re going to cover the news as usual. We’ve got a scoop for you guys. By the way, that’s a secret story. That’s it’s been a secret for almost half a year, in fact over half a year. So we got the news coming up for you and then we’re going to talk a little bit about what Michael Mogul announced at the Game Changer Summit and parlay that into a conversation around brand building through digital mediums.

Announcer:

Welcome to Lunch Hour, Legal Marketing teaching you how to promote market and make fat stacks for your legal practice here on Legal Talk Network.

Conrad Saam:

So we’re here at Crisp Game Changer Summit. We saw some amazing speakers yesterday and I think one of the things that I like about the summit is everyone hates one of the speakers and it’s not the same speaker. There’s something here for everyone. One of the speakers, I just didn’t do it for me. Who

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Did you like?

Conrad Saam:

I really liked, although she started out slowly, I really liked Kat who told her story about becoming the CEO. She went from Hooters girl to the CEO of Cinon and she’s now the CEO of G AG one. AG one formerly Athletic Green. Yes. I’m not an Athletic Greens customer. I used to be, but you can actually,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

They don’t tell you what’s in it and you can get all the ingredients for much cheaper

Conrad Saam:

Like at the G Broccoli. Yeah, right. Anyway, she had a really, really good talk around not just her life, but essentially listening to the customer and then using your internal allies to make changes, which was, it’s kind of corporate oil laundry, but it was really, really insightful. I also like Richard Green, who we just ran into eating breakfast by himself. That was AKA Robert Green, AKA Robert Green. I knew it was an R Gammit.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah. I’m a big Robert Green car myself. And if you’re a student of Stoicism, Robert Green

Conrad Saam:

For all of you students of stoicism who listened to the podcast, I know you’re out there, all one of you named Gyi. All right. What are news items? You got The point was what did Michael launch yesterday?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Michael launched Streaming Stack.

Conrad Saam:

Okay, and what is Stream Stack?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It’s a, well, I’m going to read it right from the brochure. You have it in front of you. Revolutionary omnichannel advertising product, but for the short version is TV streaming digital campaigns. Okay.

Conrad Saam:

And that’s built on top of their social stack.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Oh yeah, I think so. They’re using in conjunction with social.

Conrad Saam:

And so the point of this, and I fully 100% agree with this, and we’re going to go deeper into this, but the multi-channel, finding ways to systematically hit the right market at the right time through multiple mediums. We all know that this needs to happen in Michael’s kind of layer. Last year they actually, I think it’s been around for four years where they launched Social Stack. So this was a brand building plane. We’re going to go deep into brand building display later on in the segment, but a brand building play on social and then extending that onto OGT and other streaming devices, which is a no brainer. Yep. Okay.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

What other news we got?

Conrad Saam:

Well, I promise you guys a scoop. We found out and verified that Law Rank was actually purchased or at least invested in by ever service. And you may remember ever service because they acquired I Lawyery marketing fairly publicly about a year ago. But this law rank purchase actually, or the acquisition or investment, whatever you would like to call it, transaction. Transaction influence, money influence into an agency. This happened back in June and it’s been very, very, very quiet. So we had to do some sleuthing. We’ve verified this on multiple different accounts. But it’s interesting, Gyi, you and I talked about the acquisition of GNGF by Scorpion that was rolled out unintentionally and clumsily by GNG F’S clients posting on social media if their agency had just been acquired. And if it was Scorpion, that’s how that cat got let out of the bag. But then there was a press release and that was kind of a celebration and Scorpion talked about the synergies and Mark was all happy and liked. It was in the public. This has been very quiet. This is so quiet. The ever service doesn’t even have Lauren’s mention on their site. Why do you think that is? Gyi.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, I think that’s mean. Look, any change to your business creates some degree of risk. And the question is, what is the perception by a law rank customer knowing that the transaction went on? And again, just juxtaposing with the GNGF Scorpion thing, we know that a lot of people we’re like, look, I would like to GMGF, but I don’t want to be with Scorpion. And I think that there maybe is a stigma attached with transactions from the client standpoint. And so I think it was mindful for the leadership for this new transaction to be like, Hey, you know what? We’re going to keep this under wrap through this transition process so that we don’t have a mass exodus of clients.

Conrad Saam:

I think it’s worse.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Oh, okay.

Conrad Saam:

I think the fact that they didn’t talk about it as worse, because I look at and I don’t like Scorpion. We know, okay, unlike if you are a first time listener, we’re not. We’ll put a link to another episode, we’ll link to another episode about why we don’t like Scorpion. But there’s value in Scorpion. And I said this and I put this in my blog post. You did. They have an amazing set of data. I’ve spent some time talking to them about their AI and their feedback loop and there is value in being part of a system that has volume and now there are downsides which link elsewhere. But I think with that it was like, here’s a reason This is a good thing. If you’re hiding it, what’s the good there? There’s no good thing.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah. Again, I hear that. I still think that it’s not so much because ever service could make the exact same bitch as Scorpion. They could say we got, but they didn’t. They didn’t. Because I think that they’re like, there’s a risk that the people are going to view this no matter what. No matter what we say. You don’t see that.

Conrad Saam:

The thing that I don’t understand is it’s not like this. I mean we we’re not report this was going to come out. And so this is just basic pr get ahead of the news cycle, manage the news cycle. The reality is we have now defined the message for better or worse, and we could be completely off on all of this. This is PR 1 0 1 control the message, but the fact that it was hidden I think becomes part of the story because I don’t, why would you hide if you did an acquisition, if you bought a company or you were purchased by a company, you would be looking for that awful NBA word synergy and you would be blowing the trumpet about whatever that synergy was.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It was like trying to then lets, I don’t know, maybe it’s just taking a while to get their ducks in a row. I mean six months. That seemed kind of a long right. Tell you what,

Conrad Saam:

He makes these, he does this where he is very, very, okay, well maybe the I salad crap.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, I’ll say this, I’m pretty sure that after this episode drops, we’ll probably get an announcement.

Conrad Saam:

But that’s the whole point. I mean that’s what happened to GGF, right? It leaks on social media and then they have to do a press release. But they did that two or three days later maybe when this episode we’ll get the press release hit. Let me put it this way. Ever service if there is an upside for law rank, I mean you guys purchased I Lawyery

Announcer:

Lawyer

Conrad Saam:

And that was very public menu purchased law rank and it’s been hush hush. What’s the upside? Where’s the synergy? We would love to cover that in our next episode.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Go read the scorpion press releases for your talking points.

Conrad Saam:

Yeah, okay. Alright. When we come back, we’re going to circle back to the crisp announcement about their streaming service streaming stack. We’re going to talk about display brand building overall, what those different elements are, why we think they’re important. And then we’re going to talk about how do you measure success and what are the overall brand directives of doing something like this?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Alright, so we’re going to zoom out for a second and talk about brand building in general. And so in this context, lawyers think about billboards, TV, radio. And the idea here is that you’re reaching your audience before they need you. Their people are thinking about you. You’ve got, they’re driving past the billboard every day. They see your picture, they see your tagline maybe, or your URL not direct to be juxtaposed with direct response, which is director’s response is they’re looking for you. You’re delivering that right message at the right time.

Conrad Saam:

And in fact, they’re not looking for you. They’re looking for what you do in a perfect direct response world,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

The Horton distinction,

Conrad Saam:

Because if they’re looking for you, the brand building has already worked, which is a big point on the brand side.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

So the idea here is that you’re like, I want to be in somebody’s head. So at that pivotal moment, whether they need to look for your services or hire you or refer to a friend, they’re thinking about you. And in order to do that, not surprisingly, you got to really be in front of them. Well, you have a lot of impressions. You got to be in their head. It takes a while to get that message hit home in their head. And I think

Conrad Saam:

The thing that I want to narrow down here for our audience is most of you don’t have the budget to do that across Boston, across Chicago, across all of St. Louis.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Especially if you’re talking about the mediums of TV

Conrad Saam:

On the near TV radio. I mean Michael did a really good job of talking about how the multi-channel reinforces itself. That’s right. And that is very much a real thing. If you see things across multiple different channels, different mediums, the billboard and TikTok and Instagram, and you see it in your local search results, those things tend to be a rising tide work that makes them all more effective.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

In fact, if you go to think with Google, Google has data on the impact of the omni travel experience, even on search ads, which is an interesting thing. But the point being that you had mentioned if they see you in search, they’re more, even if you’re not in a dominant position, they’re more likely to click on you because they cognize, they cognize brand. And that’s why things like favor cons and branding in your title tags, your meta descriptions is so important.

Conrad Saam:

It’s interesting. So brief aside, you said branding and title tags. I asked Darren Shaw this question because he gave a best practices for local and he specifically called out not having the brand in the title tag. Interesting. And I asked him, I said, wouldn’t that actually impact click to rate from a positive perspective? We know there’s clickstream analysis going on and he said, yet if you do have a brand, that would be the exception.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

So I would have to go look at his go check out the whites Spark. I’d be curious what the counterpoint is to not including brand.

Conrad Saam:

My guess is counterpoint for not including brand is if you have an unrecognized brand that’s just barfing characters on the screen that do nothing.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Sure. And that might be true if you’re talking about Sitewide branding, but you’re not going to put your brand on your homepage.

Conrad Saam:

Yeah. Anyway. Anyway. Alright. That’s side. Put that on another side. So my biggest point, and I think what I was hoping, and Michael does a very good high level job. I was hoping, and you and I live in the tactical world all the time, I was hoping he was going to go deeper into the targeting side of this because if you have a finite budget, and most of our listeners I believe have a finite budget, I think it’s really important to not try and do Chicago or Boston or St. Louis or whatever it might be, but segment that out. And there was a graph shown yesterday, whereas like 3% of the traffic is for direct response. I need a motorcycle lawyer today. 97% of it was not 97% of the audience, the addressable audience isn’t looking for a motorcycle accident lawyer today. I suspect that’s closer to 0.03 and 99.07%. But if you try and get that 97% of Boston, the budget for to do that is insane. And so I think a lot of lawyers don’t recognize the value in just getting 3% of that market just saturating 3% of Boston. And that’s the beauty that you can do with all sorts of different marketing channels. And that’s what I want to talk about today.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Sounds great. And so as we’re, just to jump right into it, what are some audience segments that you would be thinking about in terms of zeroing in the target? I mean location is the most obvious context. Instead of being all through Boston, you’re in Target, like a neighborhood

Conrad Saam:

In any neighborhood. I talked to immigration lawyer, they do a lot of Hispanic immigration. Immigration is blowing up right now. If you’re an immigration lawyer, you’re in the catbird seat right now. And we were talking about, okay, they were talking about billboard advertising and it is a small firm, but there are certain segments, geographic segments of Boston where Billboard advertising to the Hispanic market is really easy, location based. There’s that type of thing. I look at this in terms of the effectiveness of a dollar spent, and when you’re talking about targeting, the most effective dollar spend that you can do is retarget. This is someone who was on my practice area page who didn’t fill out the form and I don’t want you to lose

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That. Well, it’s interesting too because that’s a very specific type of brand building. I think of this, I’m thinking of the getting in front of them in the first place. Oh no, I buy you. But not to dismiss retargeting,

Conrad Saam:

But I think that my point here is going from most effective to lease dollar spend. When you think about the dollar, if you’re going to spend a dollar anywhere on display advertising, I would start with people who looked at the pen but didn’t buy the pen and then let’s try and get them back to

Gyi Tsakalakis:

You. Exactly. Why the Instagram ads for all of the apparel things just bombard you with Yeah, because they know because it works. Yep. They’re like, oh. And they’ll send you an email being like, Hey, I saw you came and checked it out, but you didn’t buy anything.

Conrad Saam:

And that may be a very expensive per impression cost, but because the audience is so small, your overall budget for that is going to be Twix. And that is something that now you need to have enough volume to make that happen. So retargeting there on your website, you have to have enough volume for that to actually work. So that’s one of the issues with retargeting. The next group that I like from a targeting perspective is your database.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That’s what I was going to say. That’s is my number one. Okay. First party customer data or somebody has opted in, they’ve given you permission to email them and obviously put in your terms, say use their email in your ad targeting. Oh yeah. So someone that maybe just to give a concrete example, you offer a free guide on your website, get free guides, you’re going to get this free guide and you’re going to get information on whatever the subject is from our firm. And then you take that email list for the people that have opted into that and you upload it to one of these ad platforms, whether it’s Meta or Google, Google, I don’t know what the current threshold number is, but it’s pretty big. Yeah, we’re getting Google. Do you know what they are for the social off the top of your head? I do not. Anyway, you got to grow

Conrad Saam:

Your head. You got to order do that.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah, right. You got to grow your list big enough to be eligible for it. But that to me, that’s the most valuable retargeting that you can possibly do

Conrad Saam:

Because you and I talk about this all the time, referral business is the most cost effective business. One of the best way to get referral business is that people who have done work with you to never forget about you unless you offer terrible products. But let’s have to retarding for the people who have left us one, sell reviews, that will be done. But yes, on top of retargeting, I’m curious what your thought of is the audiences off of a retargeting list.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah, I think for what we’re talking about today, I think it can work, but it’s like number one, the lookalike audience. If you actually get a chance to compare who the audience looks like, it’s not as lookalike as you might.

Conrad Saam:

Okay. So I want to ask you two questions for our listener. What does a lookalike audience and then how would you validate the difference in performance of your CRM list versus your lookalike list?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That’s a great question. So lookalike list is based on the platform trying to find similar patterns to the custom audience that you offload. So you’re going to take the emails, upload the emails, platform’s going to say, okay, what characteristics do the people on this email list have? And then we’re going to go and try to find those characteristics. For people that aren’t on your email list, how would you compare the performance of your, I mean you’d have to do it in separate campaigns obviously, and then I think you’d have to, whatever data you have, you’d have to compare that now, and this is where I really am curious to get into the depth of this because to me this is the biggest difference with talking about brand, but digital brand building and direct responses. How are we going to hold these dollars accountable?

And again, just to take you to the next level here, you’re going to have to talk about impressions and reach at some level. Those are leading indicators to me of the effectiveness of the campaign. Now if you’re going back to answer your question, if you compare your custom audience to a lookalike audience, reach isn’t good. I don’t think reach is going to be a good metric to look at. So you’re going to have something that’s distinguishing to the campaign to be able to signify hand raisers that came through that campaign. So you can do something like enter discount code or making something up or enter, how did you hear about us? And maybe it has something to do with there’s something in the created that’s different that you had measure, but you have to get to the point where you’re like, okay, we know that this person had the impression that caused them to trigger, but you’re getting back into direct response. I don’t know.

Conrad Saam:

So how would you do it? Well, so the beauty of this, and I put, Gyi on the spot here, it’s really hard. It is impossible to get a good mathematical answer to this question. And there was a great, and I am glad he was very upfront about this because most of you guys don’t get this. The attribution on this is who knows? Yeah, there was a slide yesterday that just said, who knows? Right? And it’s really, really difficult. We’re getting into the measurement side of this, but it becomes difficult to figure this out.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Again, I think you’ve got to just accept that it’s not going to be the same direct response, but there are things you can look

Conrad Saam:

At Apple and the things that you’re looking at do not fall back to an individual channel. This is what we call the B at bay of the big fucking average. It is all of the stuff that you’re doing because all of that, we talked at the beginning of this, you’re hitting people on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook and LinkedIn and display campaigns, et cetera. These things all work together. So to try and identify that this one specific channel created something as a fool’s errand. So in that context, what would you look at to see that it’s not a fool’s error?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah, so it’s funny, actually the same thing I would look at with a direct response is a piece of it, but part of it’s going to be qualitative data, still getting the answer to how did you hear about us? Because even if they get it wrong, if they say they saw you on Facebook, if they say they saw you on Instagram, again, it’s not causative, but you can at least say, Hey, you know what? The campaign’s contributing to the hand raise. The other thing of course is brand search. Brand search volume. People are more people searching on your name. And the other thing that’s interesting is is that some of the platforms actually have LinkedIn, for example, you can do market research to say, have you heard about this brand recently? And the platforms get it. They know that they need to justify the brand spend. So they’re trying to come up with ways to be able to articulate it. But it’s again, very fuzzy

Conrad Saam:

Brand search. That was one of the metrics that was shown yesterday. Where do I find that data? Gyi, search console. Okay, Google Search Console should have your brand search content or your performance. And that is absolutely key in evaluating whether or not this stuff is working.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And we are always remiss to say it, but based on Bing feeding so much data into OpenAI, get familiar with Bing webmaster tools and you can also look at your brand search data in Bing.

Conrad Saam:

Great. Multiple data points.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Love

Conrad Saam:

It. Okay, we moved a little bit to the kind measurement of this, but we didn’t hit what you wanted to start with, which was this targeted saturation concept. You asked me the question, what are the ways to target the market? How are some other ways, and I’ve got some thoughts off of my head, but how are some other ways You talked about geography. Yeah, geography, what

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Else? I mean it’s going to be based on what platform you’re until large then because the platforms have different targeting options, but the classic ones are high net worth individuals where they can identify that. There are also some, I mean look on LinkedIn, I think about LinkedIn a lot, especially if you’re talking about professional referrals. That one you’ve got business title industry that they’re in and all that kind of stuff. When they went to school. When they went to school. So I think again, for me in the context of, and this goes back our conversations we’ve had before about how do you drive more referrals, if you can be top of mind with a very targeted audience on LinkedIn, you get a lot of targeting options, professional targeting options that you don’t have anywhere else. Meta doesn’t have it really. They try to model, but you can’t be like, just show this to people with attorney in their,

Conrad Saam:

So I think that the key here is what I call targeted saturation is I am not going to try and do all of Boston. I’m going to try and do a portion of Boston, right? 2% of Boston, 3% of Boston. And that is really limited by your budget. Age,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Age is another obvious

Conrad Saam:

Why age is a great thing and in many cases we will use an example, we were on a panel with TopDog the other day, and I’ll use TopDog as an example. They have done a very good job of expanding into many cities. I dunno how many metros they’re in right now. They started Philadelphia, right? They’re now through partnerships all over the place. They do not appeal to me at all. But what they’ve done is they’ve said, we have a very specific set and their commercials are gaudy and gosh and in your face and we’ll never appeal to this, which is fine. They’ve said we are going to appeal to this finite segment of the market and we are going to saturate that piece of the market. And it’s very expensive to do that. But when you do that, instead of trying to boil the entire ocean of the metro, they’re just boiling a part of it and they’re using positioning and messaging to be different and have an appeal to a certain segment of the market. They know where that market is and they own it. And that’s genius. And I fear that too many people are like, I’m in Atlanta, I need to do brand building in Atlanta. And if you do that, you will. You’re like, it’s not working you, it will not work because you don’t have enough money to make it work.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I think the other thing that I think about is I think TopDog is a good example. The creative matters a lot. Yes. And this is the other thing that I think lawyers, they get this, they get the idea, they’re like, okay, I got it. This is similar to billboards, and this is true of billboards too. Billboard picture of the lawyer phone number tagline, URL, that is not creative in a way that’s going to attract, that’s going to segment any kind of audience.

Conrad Saam:

There’s no messaging position to a phone number.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

There’s nothing,

Conrad Saam:

Right?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And by the way, unless you’re doing a two, two, two twenty, two twenty two, some kind of branded phone number, you’re expecting it. You’re actually using your saturation brand building direct response. Nobody’s stopping their car and pulling over and then dialing the number. That’s another huge mistake. The other thing that I think about is, and this goes back, oh, go ahead. What do you got?

Conrad Saam:

You’re saying, so I think the consistency of the phone number, I want to just highlight this consistency of the phone number is important.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah, that’s

Conrad Saam:

Brand. It’s brand. And this is why I talk with the BFA trying to segment and allocate, and this is the work that we’ve done for years and years and years, but trying to segment out the different channels and how they work and it’s a fool’s

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Errand. And that’s another good point though, is in addition to brand, so phone numbers can be a brand. Go look in search console and you’ll see if you bring brand building on your number, you will see that number show up.

Conrad Saam:

I didn’t think of that. That’s a great tip. Yep. That is a great, that sounds like Paul faus should be talking about.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

He should be talking about that. The other thing though that I want, and I was going to come back to your favorite word, which is affinity. And so why not now instead of just, because again, this is what’s going to happen. Lawyers are going to listen to this and they’re be like, all right, these guys are talking about ad creative for brand building. I got to do some positioning. Alright, so what are my positioning? We fight hard, all the classes, huge verdict numbers, a hundred million dollars recovered versus, so they’re thinking about what do I need to prove to my audience that I’m a great lawyer versus how about the bill? I dunno if we talk about this, the conference or on Fragas podcast, what about the billboard that’s like teacher of the month, local teacher of the month. I love that. That’s brought to you by the firm. And it’s like handing the check over to the teachers or a picture of the teacher celebrating the teacher. That same thing applies to your digital brand. Buildings. Don’t just show pictures of yourself talking about how million dollar verdicts and stuff to build brand. Because guess what happens? People see that and they’re like, I’m so sick and tired of seeing this. Don’t show snooze for 30 days or blocked ad or whatever.

Conrad Saam:

But even if they don’t block it, you get lost. You’re lying lost in life. Yeah, I’d line this. I love the idea and yes, we’ve talked about affinity. Go back and listen to some of the dark social pods that we’ve done building brand affinity over brand awareness. I would love to see more of that in the legal industry. And by the way, that’s what top dogs doing. That’s what Byron Brown is doing in Utah. There are lots of different ways to build affinity with a segment of the population. It’s really difficult to build an affinity across an entire metro because unless the affinity is the metro, right? I love Green Day, right? That can be fine.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah, no, in fact, I’ve seen lawyers that do that really effectively where their videos are with iconic monuments in the city or partner with the sports team.

Conrad Saam:

But so even the partner with the sports team, if you are going to be the Green Bay,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Not everybody likes the Packers.

Conrad Saam:

Not everyone likes the packers. And you have to be okay with that, right?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yep. The other thing that is another ancillary benefit of doing the affinity thing is you’re going to get network effect because people are going to engage with that creative. They’re going to like it. That’s right. They’re going to share it because they actually like it. And imagine the power. Now, if you want to talk about the value of your impression on your dollar is now you’re getting out in front of other audiences that you didn’t even target because they’re sharing it with their networks

Conrad Saam:

Network. So teacher of the year is a great example. You do the teacher of the year, every single teacher in that city now knows who you are.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

The other ones that I’ve seen that I really like are you partner with local restaurants. So you do dinner giveaways and you can game it a little bit and say things like tag a friend in the comments to enter into this content or a win free dinner another. Now I’m taking this to the next level.

Conrad Saam:

We’re going dark social, my friend.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I was actually going a different direction. Why don’t you take it a dark social?

Conrad Saam:

No. So if you’re interested in this specifically, go listen to, we’ll put links in the notes, go listen to the dark social content that we’ve done.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Here’s the one that I love. I’ve been talking about this one a lot. You’re doing your brand campaign, finity brand campaign. You’re partnering with the local business. The only way to enter the contest to win the dinner or whatever it is, is on your Google business profile. And so the messaging is, Hey, go search for our firm name and find our Google business profile and then go click on the post and sign up to win the tickets from the Google Poke. Why would, that might be an interesting thing.

Conrad Saam:

Why might that help? This is clickstream manipulation brought to you by ER legal marketing

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Mean. But out of all the Clinton nefarious clickstream manipulation, I think this one’s fair game. But hey, go search on our name. Go search for us.

Conrad Saam:

And the reason I’m snickering, and the reason that Gyi knows I was snickering is because this is a ranking factor. Google’s looking for people. Google wants to put brands in front of people that people want to see. And Gyi’s just told you how to make that happen algorithmically too. The search engines, it’s also something they’ve said that they don’t do, but they actually do, and not they actually do in the G think that they do, but their leak documents share that they do.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And again, all this semantics about whether it’s a ranking factor and blah, blah, blah. I don’t care. I’m telling, all I know is you want to know how y’all know it works. Because even for attorneys saying when someone searches for law firm, SEO services, Google will throw attorney sink as the autofill modifier. They’re keeping track of the brands. That’s what Eric Schmidt said. Brand starts out the supo. To me, it’s fundamental to how the whole thing works. I mean, it’s why Forbes ranks for everything. Keep going back to Forbes, which buy Forbes isn’t is a thorn in his ranking news. Still to this day. Oh, we didn’t even cover this. There was another core November core going on and we’re in the midst of it right now. So how’s Forbes doing? Well to get Google the benefit of the doubt. It hasn’t completely rolled out yet, so to be another two weeks. But as of right now, and we just checked this morning, Forbes is still ranking for everything. I mean, and if you throw that into hres in SEMrush, you’ll see the advisor Subdirectory and Forbes is going down, so it’s trending down. But I’ll tell you, for best car accident lawyer, Los Angeles and those types of searches, they’re still, these are the top spot.

Conrad Saam:

If you like to buy a spot at Forbes, you can see Gyi’s affiliate link.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, it’s interesting because Forbes is selling premium placements and so you’re a sales rep at Forbes right now and you’re like, you’re seeing that advisor thing trend down. You are hard selling right now. We have gotten to close out before this update up.

Conrad Saam:

They were hiring salespeople because you know that you’re going to need to fill those spots.

Announcer:

Right?

Conrad Saam:

Alright, great to see you in Atlanta. Great to see you. In order to talk to you guys today, we just missed John Morgan.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Oh, bummer. Well, hopefully this was worth more for you. We were investing, we should have sat an ad and then covered that talk too. I’m sure he talk about a guy who knows brand.

Conrad Saam:

There you go. Talk about a guy who knows brand. We just talked to you about brand and we missed the brand Blesser. All right. I’m going to know what we’re doing.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Thank you for this episode. And if you just drop by and you’re like, who the heck are these wild people? Please do hit subscribe and be a part of the conversation. Drop us a comment, suggest a topic. We really appreciate that. Listener feedback and listener suggestions. And we do like to hear from you. Until next time, Conrad and Gyik or Lunch Hour. Legal Marketing.

Announcer:

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