If normal SEO is austere classical music, social media algorithms are drunk jazz on a Saturday Night—you never know what’s coming next. The guys talk through how to play nice with The Algos and then share the next two picks for your marketing dream team.
Social media algorithms have more changes than a Thelonious Monk composition, which kinda sucks when you’re just trying to get your content promoted by these fickle, two-timing, nutty formulas. Gyi and Conrad give their take on whether you really need to fight the rhythm or just go with the flow while making content that people actually like. Good idea, right? We think so too.
Later, it’s time for the guys’ next picks for your in-house marketing dream team. Conrad goes for the advertising machine—the statistics-loving, data-driven person who helps you make well-informed decisions for your business. Then Gyi goes with the perennially essential intake manager. Intake is everything, and lawyers need to understand why. Tune in for Gyi’s insights on what an intake manager can do for your team.
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Intro: Before we get started, we want to thank our sponsors, Lawmatics, Nota, Lawyaw.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Cue the whitewater rafting sound effects. Conrad, you were just on an exciting adventure.
Conrad Saam: Yeah, I was in the middle of really nowhere, Idaho. It was like a hour long forest service ride. And then we were out for six days. Really, really in the middle of nowhere, completely self-efficient. And I learned two things. Number one, the importance of being really unplugged. I did that once in the Australian outback when you just can’t get a hold of people. I did it recently up in northern BC and just being inaccessible to the business of what we do. And the other thing was more ironic. I had planned on bringing along my phone with me and shooting some great shots of me talking about the need to be unplugged to post to all of you about the value of being unplugged. And then I realized just how ironic it was for me to go out and be unplugged and then plug in to talk about being unplugged. So I did nothing. I have not talked to anyone. This is the first time I’ve been thinking about business in a solid 10 days, and it has been glorious.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, congratulations and welcome back. With that, what are we going to dive into today?
Conrad Saam: So, coming back, we still have news. We always cover news. We are going to do a quick segment on social media that we’ve dubbed drunk jazz on a Saturday night and then we’re going to come back to our dream team segment. You and I are going to pick two more members of our dream marketing team if we were to have them in house. Lockwood, let’s hit that music.
Male 1: Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing, teaching you how to promote, market and make fat stacks for your legal practice here on Legal Talk Network.
Conrad Saam: Welcome to lunch hour legal marketing. Let’s do some news. Gyi while I was out gallivanting in the middle of central Idaho, I had to come back and ask you what’s going on? So what’s happened? What did I miss? Bring everyone up to speed.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Oh, my goodness. Conrad, there’s a new social media app.
Conrad Saam: Only one.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Threads. The Twitter killer. All these apps are killing each other but essentially short version, Zuck decides, hey, Twitter is vulnerable. Let’s create a Twitter clone and send it out to our billion users and they’re at 100 million users for this new Threads app. So they beat I believe they beat Chat GPT to 100 million users or at least a 10 million users. I don’t know if Chat GPT is 100 million users. Anyway, Threads is the new hotness social media hype thing (00:03:01) to go post on. We’ll see.
Conrad Saam: And you too can be an expert on Threads by jumping on the bandwagon now like all the other digital marketers and talking about how you were there before everyone else.
Gyi Tsakalakis: The complete ultimate guide to using Threads two weeks before Threads is downloadable.
Conrad Saam: All right, to keep our cynicism somewhat at bay, Google Business Profile. Google removed call tracking. Gyi, tell me what’s going on here. As a data driven or at least data informed person, this gives me the willies. What’s going on?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, so let’s be clear. You can still use a call tracking number in Google Business Profiles, but their native is essentially a mobile click to call from my view, they’ve removed that feature, which was a mess anyway, and it was routing. It had problems routing numbers, and the reporting was off and so I think they kind of threw their hands up or rethinking that in general, from what I can read. But I think something to be mindful of, and we’ll see if this has any other impact on business profiles more largely. But if you’re listening to this and you’ve been looking at your call tracking on the native Google Business Profile dashboard, you might be surprised to see that it has vanished. And that’s not a bug, that’s a feature.
Conrad Saam: That’s not a bug. That’s a feature. This is thematic. This has been thematic from our good friends down in Mountain View for a while. Less and less concrete information brought to you by the people at Google, or conversely, this change at Google brought to you by our good friends at CallRail, which makes this very easy to do right? How is that for a plug? Finally, Before I left, Gyi, I think it was about 24 hours before I left, LinkedIn had a massive algorithm update and what we saw this was actually the inspiration for one of the segments coming up regarding social media being algorithmically driven but there was a huge swing in the reach that people were receiving through their posts on LinkedIn.
And this is zero sum game. Some people are getting a lot more, and some people are getting crushed. And so if you have found that your LinkedIn reach has changed dramatically, it is not because you should fire or reward your consultant, your agency, or the 18-year-old that you pay as an intern to do all of your socials. It is because LinkedIn has shaken the snow globe.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Reachpocalypse part two and it just dawned on me but the other solution to this is don’t put all your eggs in the organic basket, whether that’s search or social, and hence why an advertising machine is so critical to your dream team.
Conrad Saam: In a fit of irony, we’re going to stop for an advertising break. And when we get back drunk jazz on a Saturday night.
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Gyi Tsakalakis: Know exactly where your marketing is working with plans that start at $40 a month.
Conrad Saam: We recommend CallRail to every single one of our clients. Go to callrail.com/lunchhour to try it for free.
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Conrad Saam: So the big thing right before I left on my whitewater vacation was a huge change in the LinkedIn algorithm, which was not brought about by an announcement from anyone. It was really brought about the knowledge of this was brought about by all these LinkedIn users watching their data go haywire and I think one of the interesting things that we think about Gyi so frequently is SEO being algorithmically driven. And I think for some reason, the notion that social media is algorithmically driven seems to have missed our collective conscience. It seems to be we just want to go viral and that’s just the thing that happens. But it’s really a math formula, right? I think that’s often missed among, frankly, lawyers, which is fair, but digital marketers, which is not fair. Like, this is your one job, guys. So what do we do about that Gyi? How do you think about social when it comes to measurement when you’re dealing with an algorithm? Why do we call this drunk jazz on a Saturday night? What do we do with this stuff?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, part of the reason we wanted to talk about this is this idea of, like, it reframes how you think about it. I think the algorithm — I think there’s no doubt it’s the risk of stating the obvious. We all know that algorithms dictate what’s in the feeds. I think the challenge, though, is like, okay, we all agree on that. Well, what’s actually the same way we kind of try to think about search, what signals would a platform use to influence their algorithm? Right? And so the most obvious one, just like everything else, these are publicly traded companies, is what’s drive shareholder value. And what drives shareholder value for these companies is ad impressions. And so why would they show more content of a certain type or ads of a certain type? And a lot of that’s going to be one, it’s keeping eyeballs on platform, right?
So any signal that they’re getting that says, hey, you’re leaving the platform a link out, they want to demote that content. I think the second thing is that it’s engagement driven, right? So we even talked about this when we were talking about some of the local search ranking factors. We’re both in the camp that user signals in search impact rankings to some extent. Well, in social, I think it’s really high, the signaling for engagement super high. So comments, reactions, reposts, reshares, those kind of things. I think the algorithm with one favor and then what are other factors that might go into the likelihood of something getting liked, commented or reshared?
And so then you’re thinking about things like time of day because we want to be tactical here. So there’s hacks on like you can post a question at the end of a post because that might get somebody to want to post. If you have a link, you might drop the link in a comment. I’ll tell you another thing too. We didn’t mention this, but I just dawned on me. I don’t know if this happened while you were gone because I didn’t check my notes. But LinkedIn took away the ability to add external links to images like in the native app on your mobile device. You could add a link and overlay the image. They took that away. And so the cynical is of course they did because they don’t want you to link out. Apparently they’re redoing some of their content stuff. Anyway, that was ranty. What do you think about algorithms and how you think about social? I think you mentioned that you did some analysis of some of the impact of this algorithm. What did you notice were the difference makers or who were the winners and losers in this?
Conrad Saam: Yeah, well, I mean that’s the key point here. This is a zero sum game. This starts to look very familiar from a strategic perspective to the algorithmic machinations that we deal with in SEO. This is a zero sum game. There are winners and there are losers in this. But you are completely correct, Gyi, that we need to be thinking about those things that encourage the algorithm to reward you by giving you more distribution, right? And ideally more distribution that is relevant and local to what you do. It is not necessarily great for you to be driving a bunch of views in Uzbekistan, for example, if you do divorce law in Poughkeepsie, New York.
Gyi Tsakalakis: We always pick on poor Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan is always the example. Untargeted traffic.
Conrad Saam: This not brought to you by the Uzbekistan Chamber of Commerce or the Poughkeepsie Chamber of Commerce for that matter. I use Poughkeepsie just because it just seems suchlike the random city that lots of people have heard about but no one could actually —
Gyi Tsakalakis: It’s a fun word to say too, isn’t it? Poughkeepsie.
Conrad Saam: Poughkeepsie. I feel like it’s a bad podcast where there’s too many Adam can tell us what those sounds are that do not sound great over a microphone. But I think that the big thing with social for me and there are a lot of lawyers who are starting to get this. And yet there are many lawyers and most digital legal marketing ninjas and mavens and experts who don’t is all of those engagement signals rarely involve the best three things to do when you’re making an insurance claim or seven ways to check in to see if your spouse is cheating on you or those types of things, the content and this is where the content is so elemental to the success of social and by and large, and we’ve said this in many ways, many times.
Legal content is a snoozer, right? It’s really hard to have amazing content about tax law. It just is and so what we find, and this is not a shock to everyone listening to this should know the answer already, puppies are going to do better than estate planning tips, right? And so you may ask yourself, well, why? I don’t sell puppies, I sell estate planning. But the purpose here, and this is why I’ve gone on and on about dark social, but the purpose here is to build affinity, not just awareness, but affinity for yourself and your law firm, which turns into business, right? And is that affinity directly correlated? No. Is it a direct response situation where I’m looking for puppies and then I hire the tax lawyer? No, that’s ludicrous. But you are building out ideally a local group of rabid fans who have a deep affinity for you, the attorney. And that’s where this starts to work but in order to do that, you need to think about what is driving the algos and you need to understand that they’re going to change. And finally, just to put another fine point on this, this is very similar to SEO in that it is very hard to predict and budget and make targets for success.
Even if you were to think about impressions, and if you were smart enough to say, we’re only going to look at local impressions, which is what you should be looking at, right? So we don’t have the Uzbekistan factor, but you know what, there’s an exogenous factor called the algorithm, which is going to come along and change things dramatically. And so it’s really hard to say, you know what, Gyi? I want to go from 10,000 views this year to 40,000 views next year because the things that you’re going to do to make that happen can get completely wiped out by an Algo change and then you need to start over again, right? The point being, we need to think about these things critically. We need to study them. We need to learn what works, what doesn’t work, and constantly evolve which is why I call this drunk jazz on a Saturday evening because you never know what’s coming up as opposed to classical, where it is much more like for example, pay per click, right? Like it is much more linear.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Much more impromptu. So I think what I’m hearing you say is take poster board, write out your estate planning tips, take them to a local animal shelter, and then film the puppies holding the poster boards with your estate planning tips. And that is the key to virality on social.
Conrad Saam: Listen, almost a sarcastic approach on this, but think about doing something like that instead of like you sitting there in your red tie and your mahogany desk reading out those 10 things to do for estate planning law. Like you throw a puppy or a kitten or a turtle on there, you will do better. I can’t guarantee it but it would be an interesting test. And these are the things this is where you can get testy with this stuff. This is where you can start experimenting with stuff. This is where you can get feedback, right back and so, like, Gyi’s ridiculous suggestion here. It’s something that we could try, right? And you can keep trying because this is a constant like, we’re putting out content all the time. So you could try that and see what happens.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, and I think the other thing, too, that thing is important for folks who are listening to be thinking about the reason we’re bringing this up, I think, is to help everyone think more about how the platforms reward content. Not to go chase the algorithm, right? Because it’s the same problem in SEO, right? Someone says there’s an update and then everybody’s all like, fear misinformation, and whatever it is that the update is, and everybody goes and chases that. Changes everything they’re doing. I get these questions regularly. What time of day should I post on social? And each of the platforms, they release stats on different things. There’s third party companies and tools that release stuff on that. How long should my video be? I would much rather just post regularly, get the friction out of the way for posting, and then let the audience tell you what’s going on and let the platform tell you. So if you’re not getting a lot of reach, if you’re not getting a lot of engagement, don’t do that again, right? Try something else. But the other side of the coin is because, again, people listen to this and they’re like, oh, well, Gyi and Conrad said we got to think about this like SEO and algorithms. I’m going to go start doing search for LinkedIn’s algorithm and how to game LinkedIn’s algorithm and all this stuff and to Conrad’s point, it changes all the time.
The fundamentals are engagement, stay on site, that kind of thing. But for so many lawyers we talk to, it’s much more about like, reduce the friction for actually creating content. Don’t worry that you’re having your perfect hair day. You’ve got your production level studio set up. Take your phone out and record something. And I know it’s uncomfortable and people don’t like to hear that, but there’s no gaming and algorithm without any content.
Conrad Saam: Yes, I love the concept. Get the friction out of generating the content. And for lawyers, I hate to besmirch you, but you’re so worried about it being perfect that nothing happens.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Right, that’s the production quality is not there or I’m having a bad hair day, or I don’t like the way that I look on video. None of this other stuff matters. If you’re not actually willing to publish.
Conrad Saam: All right, now that we have hopefully inspired a small subset of you to actually pull out the phone and get the friction out of creating content, we’re going to take a break. When we come back, Gyi and I will be picking the next two members of our marketing dream team. If we had unlimited resources and an in-house group.
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And we’re back and we’re picking back up on our marketing is a team sport building your marketing dream team conversation with two more roles that you must have on your law firm’s marketing team. Conrad, what role must you have on your marketing dream team?
Conrad Saam: So on my marketing dream team, I used to call this the pay per click machine but I now call it the advertising machine because there’s a lot more than just pay per click to think about. Although a huge volume of business that goes with this.
My take on the advertising is multifaceted. Number one, it’s expensive, okay? So just accept that it’s expensive. Number two, a very large portion of business goes through advertising, right? It happens. This is direct response advertising. People are looking for an X, I’m going to search for an X, I’m going to buy an X and that is happening right now. If you ignore this because it is so expensive, you are by definition constraining the size of your market, right? And so that becomes really important. But the reason I use the word machine is because you really need volume and efficiency to be very good at this. And if I ran an in-house team, one of the things that I would have a concern over is the sheer amount of statistics that I could have at my back end call to make statistically relevant informed decisions and so I really want someone who can think about the ideal end result which is a business objective, not a pay per click or any advertising objective. It is a business objective, which is revenue, the cost of your revenue, the cost per client, for example. And so we really don’t want to be looking at conversions by all the data that is typically generated from pay per click or advertising systems.
We want to be looking further down the funnel for people actually signing cases. And I also want to be learning from as large a system as I possibly can and I do think that is one of the problems that the in-house pay per click or advertising manager faces. Gyi, you and I run advertising campaign and this is going to start to sound agency pitchy and I apologize for making it sound this way, but this is just a reality.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Make your pitch.
Conrad Saam: There is value in working with an agency who is running a million dollars in the practice area that you are running because they have a statistical relevance that they can work on. And so you really need to have enough data to make defined decisions. And my advertising machine person has a degree or at least a really solid understanding of statistics and which goes well beyond the averages. So this is someone who really gets math, calculus, probability, bell curve distribution, statistics, negative R squared. That’s a stats joke, by the way, but really understands the statistics of what they are doing because if you don’t, you will end up lighting a bunch of money on fire. So I want a math oriented machine that can learn how to do A/B test at statistically relevant levels within my own firm. So I also need to have enough of a spend to enable that to happen. Otherwise we’re probably letting a bunch of money on fire.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point, especially when you’re talking about having data scarcity issues. So the short version is if you’re a smaller firm not spending a lot of money online, your in-house person doesn’t have a lot to work with versus someone who’s got much bigger data sets. The other thing that you alluded to that I think is important to think about is this is not just direct response. This is advertising across the board. And we get into this issue and have these conversations that I don’t have any money, but I need leads now. And I’m like, well, sometimes those things are at odds with each other, right? Because we talked about how long does it take for SEO to happen? We have people all the time where we’re saying, look, you need leads tomorrow. What are you doing for advertising? Oh, I don’t want to advertise and I’m like, I’m sympathetic because guess what? As we talk about many times, it’s really easy to open — Google makes it really easy to open an advertising account and spend money. They don’t make it very easy to understand how to manage to actual some kind of business metric.
Conrad Saam: The business metrics and it’s hard in law, right? It’s hard because your conversion don’t happen on something that Google can easily track.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Right? And the reason I wanted to pull this back was because we talk about the limits of attribution all the time. A lot of what the advertising is doing is to build awareness and affinity and so if you’re only optimizing for conversions, you optimize yourself to the direct response box, and you don’t realize how many times do you see advertisers who are doing big campaigns for affinity or awareness and they turn it off because they’re like, we couldn’t track anything to it and then all of a sudden, their organic conversions go down, or their conversions and other channels go down, because that’s the way that people — that’s the journey. That’s the client journey.
Conrad Saam: That’s really key. So that person who’s running this needs to understand direct response.
It is direct response, and therefore it is an easy calculation. Affinity, that is a different business objective and building affinity, the metrics that you use to look at when you do that, are fundamentally different. So someone who understands that. You said something that was really prescient about if you’re in a small firm, right? And it’s really hard to run this to run advertising if you’re in a small firm because you have that data scarcity point. These guys are not a sponsor, but this is the exact business model of convert — I never know if it’s convert it or convert IT. It’s a terrible name for a business because you literally don’t know how to say the name of the business but what they really do is they focus entirely on very, very small campaigns, but they amalgamate all of the data that they get across all of these small campaigns to try and generate smart bidding strategies for law firms, right? And so that’s one of those examples of where an agency can bring a lot of value just because of their reach, right? And that’s an extreme example. All right, who’s on your dream team? I talked about math. What do you want to talk about?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Mine is intake manager. Intake is a huge problem for firms, even today, even with support, even with virtual receptionists, even with full time intake people on the team, intake’s everything. I know a lot of lawyers are listening to this. They’re like, you ask the question, who does intake? Well, I do. I the lawyer do, right? What’s the problem with that? Why is that bad? Why is that “oh, boy”?
Conrad Saam: Well, there’s lots of problems with that. And I think the key that you said there was you didn’t say intake, you said intake manager. If you are doing intake, who’s managing the intake? Doesn’t work, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis: What do we say about intake managers that we haven’t said? I mean, ultimately, it’s about the accountability, the ultimate accountability for the potential client experience at the front end. I mean, it’s expectation setting. It’s accountability for the people doing the intake. It’s checking on it. It’s like, hey, you’re listening to calls. If you’re recording calls.
Conrad Saam: It’s managing that third party service, right? Like we’ve talked about, this managing service, third party services will do at best, a solid beat because they’re not in your office, and if you’re not managing them, you won’t get a solid beat out of them. I don’t care. That’s a really hard job. We also think of intake as being easy. You’re answering the phone, go through the script, right? Pass it on if it makes sense. Don’t pass it on if it doesn’t. But it’s a hard gig. It is a hard gig. And most of you have intake people who are fairly poorly paid. And think about that. Your first foot forward is maybe one of the lowest paid positions in your firm. Not a great start.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. The other thing that I think about with the intake manager is the same thing we think about in context about advertising optimization. It’s like, who’s iterating intake improvement. Who’s actually looking at the data on intake and saying, a lot of CRMs. You can see when I pop open CRMs at firms, you’ll see things like, lost went with another attorney well, who’s actually like, well, why did that happen? Right? Was it a timing thing? Do we need to be faster? Was it the way that we communicated? Was it the way that we qualified? Was the questions we were asking? Did we ask them was there something in the process that was problematic? That’s really when I think of the intake manager, it’s the person who is actually analyzing intake and then making improvements. Iterating intake forward at the firm. And again, this is nonexistent at so many firms. A lot of firms, they’re still on step one, which is even just getting the intake down right, let alone someone who’s actively managing and improving the intake.
Conrad Saam: So, Gyi, I’m going to ask you a straw man question, but I think most of our firms approach this differently. Most laws —
Gyi Tsakalakis: I’ll give you a straw man answer.
Conrad Saam: Give me a straw man answer. Hey, Gyi, should your intake manager be your best and or most experienced intake individual?
Gyi Tsakalakis: No, I mean it’s different skill set, I think. You can have all of the soft skills that are typically associated with doing excellent intake and not have the analytical skills to say, there’s where we have the bottleneck. Could it be the same person? I suppose and the other thing you got to think about resource wise is don’t you want your best intake person on the phone doing intake, not behind the scenes managing intakes? I don’t know. I think of it a different skill set. Management — management in general, like the things and the skills that go into process improvement, having conversations with the people doing intake, listening to calls, refining scripts. It’s a different skill set to me. There’s some overlap but a lot of it is — it’s a much more like analytical management type of job than it is just a I’m really good at doing the intake and getting people to talk and empathizing with their situation.
Conrad Saam: 100% agree. I will say that if your best intake person is also the intake manager, you are doing it all wrong.
Gyi Tsakalakis: No, even stronger.
Conrad Saam: How’s that? Now we’re insulting our audience again or at least I am. No, but seriously, like, Gyi is 100% correct. This is a managerial, analytical, holding people accountable. This is not passionate. It is a very different person and it is someone who needs to be looking to improve something and looking at this from the outside instead of living on the inside. I 100% agree with this. If you rise up to become the intake manager, you’re now the boss of all your peers yesterday, right? It’s just this dissonance with doing this right and being a part of the game, player coach.
Gyi Tsakalakis: And again, as we always say when we’re doing these, we understand if you’re a solo, you’re a small firm, like you don’t have resources to have full time hires for all these roles, then you got to carve out some of your day to do some of this stuff, right? And so if you’re thinking about in that context, on your calendar, on your quarterly business review or your monthly business review, how much time are you spending listening to intake, talking about intake and making tweaks to your intake process? And I think that’s what I’d be asking myself if I was going to do this myself if I don’t have the resource for a full time person, because it’s just not happening. I mean, you can call law firms all across the country right now and you know what you get? Sometimes you get the press one. Sometimes you get a human being that says law firm in like total deadpan —
Conrad Saam: Law firm, please hold.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Sometimes you still get voicemail. Sometimes you do get the virtual receptionist, but as you mentioned, doing BB plus when they mispronounce the lawyer’s name or the firm’s name, they route the call wrong and so, again, if people aren’t managing this, there is so much opportunity. Just think of the money and time you spent to make the phone ring and now you did it. They called hooray and then you just leave it hanging there and it’s like, this is just huge waste, missed opportunity. So go focus on that intake.
Conrad Saam: The law office of Smith and Jones is closed from 11:30 to 12:45 on weekdays for lunch. Hang on.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Actual recording.
Conrad Saam: Lots of you are doing that. Drives me bananas, right? Like, oh, you want me to wait on my problem so you can have a banana? Like, come on, expect it now.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Or on April 1, they’re still saying closed for the New year’s and if you’re interested in who else Conrad thinks should be on your dream team, check out our previous episode. We’ll leave a link in the show notes where we cover two other roles and of course, come back and subscribe because we got more we got more members of the dream team to talk about. So come back to our future episodes of LHLM. And with that, as I check the time, we are actually out of time. Thank you for listening to this episode of Lunch Hour legal Marketing. If you enjoyed it, please do leave us a review. You can leave it on Apple. Drop us a note. We’d love to hear from you. Hashtag LHLM, YouTube, Instagram, TikToks, Threads?
Conrad Saam: TikToks?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Conrad, you getting TikToks.
Conrad Saam: There’s multiple TikToks.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Instagrams?
Conrad Saam: Instagrams, Threads find us.
Gyi Tsakalakis: I looked at threads and I read TikToks. Maybe on Threads, we’ll see how the cage match goes. But thank you so much and please do subscribe and we look forward to chatting with you next time. Until that time, Conrad and Gyi Lunch Hour Legal Marketing.
Outro: Thank you for listening to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. If you’d like more information about what you heard today, please visit legaltalknetwork.com. Subscribe via Apple podcasts and RSS. Follow Legal Talk Network on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Oh, I did that completely backwards. Let me try that again.