From Solo to CEO: Letting Go of Legal Work to Grow Your Firm, with Ellen Williamson

Episode Notes

Transcript

Bernadette Harris:

Hi, I’m Bernadette.

Zack Glaser:

And I’m Zack, and this is episode 616 of The Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, Chad talks with Labster Ellen Williamson about, well, her practice and all the stuff that she’s done in lab. I love talking with Ellen. She’s fantastic. I get to see her a lot at … Well, when I get to see her most of the time is LabCon or I guess even Cliocon, but LabCon was probably the last time I saw Ellen, and she is just fantastic.

Bernadette Harris:

Absolutely. Well, I get to see her every two weeks because she’s actually one of my labsters. So I’m the luckier one of the two. Yeah.

Zack Glaser:

Oh, that’s fantastic. So you get to see all of her progress and all that. She is brilliant and I

Bernadette Harris:

Really am doing it. She’s been doing some really, really great work in lab. I mean, I love working with all of the labsters, but is it okay to say I have favorites?

Zack Glaser:

I mean, it’s okay to say that Ellen, if you were to have a favorite or favorites. Okay,

Bernadette Harris:

Okay.

Zack Glaser:

Ellen would definitely be in there. Yeah, I got it. I think we can say that.

Bernadette Harris:

Yeah. I think that she would be … If I had favorites.

Zack Glaser:

If

Bernadette Harris:

You were

Zack Glaser:

To, which

Bernadette Harris:

Of

Zack Glaser:

Course you don’t. Of

Bernadette Harris:

Course not. Of course not. Of course not. But I do enjoy working with her because she’s definitely one of the labsters who makes a commitment to doing stuff. And then we talk about the plan and she actually does the things that need to happen to get stuff done. Yeah.

Zack Glaser:

I was actually going to talk about Labcon coming in for this intro, but now that you say that, I’m curious, what makes a good labster? I think you might have good thoughts on this. What makes a good lab or somebody that’s ready to get some stuff done like Ellen is?

Bernadette Harris:

Definitely the ones who … We go back to this word, we’ve all heard it, being coachable, that person who can listen to someone else. And it’s not because I’m smarter. I just have a different viewpoint. And so because I’m able to see their business from a different level, a different angle, I can come in with a set of viewpoints. So someone who can listen and do the stuff, someone who is truly committed, meaning they schedule their appointments, they show up for their appointments, they do the work, the in between work in between the sessions. I think those are the things that make someone a good labster.

Zack Glaser:

How much time do you think that takes per week? Or does that vary or is that something that’s like-

Bernadette Harris:

It definitely varies. It varies and it just depends on what they want to accomplish. I’ve had labsters come in who … I have a labster who’s like, “Hey, I’m trying to do this and I’m trying to do it fast.” And we’re talking about all the things that he wants to accomplish. And so because he’s trying to do a lot of things, for him it’s a little bit greater. He’s probably spending about five to six hours a week building his business. Someone else who may not be trying to do things as fastly or as quickly as him, maybe about three hours a week. One of the things that I do though, Zack, I ask, “How much time do you have to commit to this? ” And based on what they tell me, then when we’re setting goals and priorities for the quarter, then we can look at, is it realistic to say that you’re going to be able to accomplish these things in a quarter given that you only have two hours a week?

Okay.

Zack Glaser:

I like that. I like that. So just like any attorney answering any question, it depends.

Bernadette Harris:

It depends. It depends. Say you’re an attorney, I’m an accountant. We speak the same language.

Zack Glaser:

Yep. It depends on a lot of factors. It depends on a lot of factors. Yeah. Well, let’s take a look at one of our current labsters stories and case study as Chad talks with Ellen. Coming up.

Ellen Williamson:

Hi, I’m Ellen Williamson. I’ve got an estate planning probate and guardianship firm in Dallas.

Chad Fox:

Well, Ellen, it’s been a minute since I’ve seen you. The last time I saw you was at Labcon in Atlanta. And on here, Zack and I love to talk about our running adventures, but you went on those runs with us early morning in Atlanta. I did. And you were kicking our butts.

Ellen Williamson:

I don’t know about that.

Chad Fox:

Well, you clearly bring that same energy to your law firm. And I was speaking with Bernadette, who is your coach here in lab, and she was telling me that your theme for 2026 is to not be the bottleneck. And I think that’s something that probably most of the law firms and attorneys listening to this episode can relate to. So what’s that been like for you? What does that mean to you to not be the bottleneck in the business?

Ellen Williamson:

Well, and I’ll say when I started my firm, I was it. I was a true solo.

And so as you evolve from that, you’re always taking things off your plate and giving them to other people. And at first it’s kind of easy stuff. Okay. Well, I can give someone else answering the phone.That’s not a hard thing to give away. I was happy to give that away. I hate accounting with every fiber of my being, so outsourcing bookkeeping felt easy. But when you get to the giving away substantive work, that part’s harder because for any given task, I really might be the most qualified person to do it. I can do it faster than anybody else. And that’s always going to be true.That’s just a cap on the firm can’t grow any bigger than what I can do.

And so being able to say, no, even if I’m the most qualified to do all the legal work, that doesn’t mean I’m the right person to do it. And part of the reason for me, and probably for a lot of lawyers, it’s so tempting to hide out in the legal work is that’s what we’re trained for and we’re really good at it. I’ve spent 21 years doing that. I can write an application really well. And when I do, I can look at it, know immediately, yes, that’s correct. I’m going to be able to send it to the client right away, file it, and it has a tangible financial value because here’s how much it’s worth and I’m going to get paid for it next month. And if I spend an hour reworking my flat fee billing or thinking through how to manage a team member, well, that’s not what I learned how to do in law school.

It feels kind of amorphous. It’s not this nice discreet task. I can check off a list and the time I spend on it today might ultimately end up being worth more than that billable hour of time, but it might not pay off for a month or six months.

So moving into the work that feels more uncomfortable and building the time to do that by delegating out the things that other people on my team are perfectly qualified to do.

Chad Fox:

Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s well said. So when you think about those things, about the things you’ve delegated and your theme for 2026, what is something that you’ve held onto longer than you should have? And what finally forced you to let it go?

Ellen Williamson:

Well, just one example when we do estate planning, and so our client has their will, sometimes their trust, but then they’ve also got power of attorney and some other ancillary documents. And for a long time, I just was like, “Well, I draft the estate plan.” And then one of my paralegals said, “I bet I could do some of that. Yeah, maybe she could.” And this was where before I had learned about a tool from lawyers, someone else in the lab that ended up making it a lot easier, I thought, “Well, yeah, I guess I can write a step by step guide how she can go through and draft the powers of attorney and those sorts of things.” And then I’d get a draft back and I think I’m spending more time reviewing this and sending it back for correction. It would’ve been so much faster to just do it, but I’m going to stick with it.

And now I haven’t had to draft one of those in well over a year because I can just delegate it to her from the get- go and I’m going to review it, but about 90% of the time it’s correct as is with no changes. I remember one of the labcons, someone had talked about Loom video, and if I had known about that then, I would have done a Loom recording myself doing it. That would have been a lot easier.

Chad Fox:

Yeah. It’s such an interesting thing because what you unlock there is you’re playing the long game, right? And that’s where a lot of the law firms that we work with get hung up is in that playing that long game when you start handing things off to people. Do we have the patience to be able to help them get to the place where they can do it on their own? And it does take longer in the beginning for the owner because like you said, you’re reviewing things and sending things back to correction and there is a process to that, but that’s really the only way that you’re going to be able to let those things go is to help them get good enough at it to where now you don’t have to do that as much.

Ellen Williamson:

Well, and for me, it was also kind of reframing that, fine, I’m good at drafting things. It’s a different skill and a harder skill to teach someone else how to do that. But when you get it right, now that’s where the leverage comes in.

Chad Fox:

I always like to tie it back to that idea of, do you want to do $500 an hour tasks or $50 an hour tasks? What is your highest and best use? And that seems to be a mindset shift for people when they realize that.

Ellen Williamson:

Yeah, that was a good framing for me. And then kind of the way I’m looking at things now is for any given task before I do it, is this one I personally should still be the one doing in three months, six months, a year?

And if the answer’s no, then let me go ahead and do it this time and let me narrate a loom video explaining, thinking out loud so that my team members can hear this is why I’m doing it this way, turn this one into the training library and then when this one comes along in three months, then I’m not touching it anymore because I’ve built a tool that someone else can. And if it really is something that’s mine to do, then is there AI or some other tool I can do use to help me do it more efficiently so that if it really is mine to do, can I at least make it more efficient?

Chad Fox:

Yeah. There was something you said there that I wanted to come back to and that is them understanding how you’re thinking about things. And I think that’s a subtle thing that goes overlooked when you’re mentoring your team is setting aside some time so they can get inside your head and start learning how you think about things is super, super valuable outside of just a checklist of how to go through the process so they could start thinking like you, that even moves them along faster.

Ellen Williamson:

Yeah. Well, and we’re a fully virtual team. I’ve got one of my team members is in a different state, another one is in a different country. So getting everybody in the same physical space, that’s not going to happen. And I have found, it used to be if somebody sent me something to review, maybe I’d send an email back with change X, Y, Z, or I’d do track changes, but I’m finding it’s faster for me to narrate that video, walking them through it. It’s easier. And when I’ll send something, “Oh, hearing you say it that way, now I get it. ” And I’m learning that having them hear me think out loud instead of when we write things down, it’s like, “I’ve already thought it through. I’ve already done all the messy middle and I’m just giving you the conclusion, which is fine in a narrow way if I’m just trying to give you a task, but if I’m trying to ultimately delegate out the judgment behind the task,

You’ve got to hear how I get there and that’s proven to be a good way to do it. ” And I’ve got one of my team members is a delegate on my inbox and I realized if I can just record a video narrating my inbox and just, “Here’s what you need to do on this one, here’s what we do on this one.” I was doing that for a few weeks and then I found I don’t even actually really have to do that very much anymore because now she sees the email and without me saying anything, she knows what I would’ve done with it and she’s already dealt with it the right way.

Chad Fox:

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. It’s the old teacher manda fish versus giving him a phish, right? You’ve taught your team how to do the phishing versus just giving them the fish in form of a checklist that they just go down. You give them both. Yeah.

Ellen Williamson:

Well, and then I can … Ultimately, my goal is to not just be the one in the middle holding the mental load assigning out the tasks, but you have the mental load. You’re the one driving the case forward and I’m supervising and there may be things I pull and say I need to do, but what I’d love to get to on some of these is you’re running this, you’re assigning tasks to me for things that I need to do, but you’re the one keeping up with what’s happening and telling me what needs to be done instead of the other way around.

Chad Fox:

Yeah. So what is, if you’re thinking about you being able to remove your involvement in some of the day-to-day and really truly become the CEO of your firm, what’s been a system, a hire or a process that you’ve implemented that’s made a big impact there?

Ellen Williamson:

Even just kind of a subtle thing, building in explicit office hours time where, because especially since we’re virtual, I don’t want someone to think, “I need to go spend longer on this because I don’t know if Helen’s busy doing something.” I just say,

Chad Fox:

“Here’s

Ellen Williamson:

Hours every week that I’ll find something to do if nobody needs me. ” But my metaphorical door is open. Answering your questions is my job right now.That’s been one thing that’s been helpful.

Chad Fox:

I love that. And I think in the firms that I work with, I hear that as a common theme is I spend so much time answering questions and putting out fires and there’s so much brain bandwidth that happens in those switches when you’re trying to focus on getting something done and then somebody’s coming to you for a question and then you’re trying to go back to the thing and then somebody else comes to you for a question. It’s really hard to be productive. So I love that, having those office hours where, “Hey, this is the time that you can come in and let’s work through some of this stuff.” All the other times, leave me be.

Ellen Williamson:

Well, or reach out and say, “Hey, can I grab you for something?” But the door is open, don’t knock, just come in.

Chad Fox:

Yeah, I love it. So what’s changed for you since you started implementing some of these things, both in how the firm runs and in your life as the owner of the business?

Ellen Williamson:

I’m seeing … And one of the things that had, I guess, kind of helped accelerate this was us shifting toward flat fee billing too. So we’re aligned with our clients on wanting to get things done as quickly and efficiently as we can, but for me as the owner, it also makes it clearer that the more of this I can empower other people on the team to do at least as well as I could and maybe better on some of the things, then the better that is for the firm. But I think what I’m seeing is it’s really nice to see people … I know lawyers has the grab the marker, you want people

To volunteer for things. And I’ve got paralegals saying, “Hey, I want to learn how to do this. Can I try doing this? ” Yes, yes, yes, all of that. So I like getting to help other people go further into their jobs. It’s more enjoyable for me. I’m sure more enjoyable for them, and it’s better for our clients. We can help more people and do it better. But also, one of my thoughts is I want to be able to, and I think I’d said this when I first started lawyers, I want to be able to go on vacation and not spend the whole time checking my email and know that everything is fine and it’s nice to get to be able to do that.

Chad Fox:

Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. And I know you work with Bernadette and what’s it been like having that kind of thought partner, accountability partner with you in lab as you’ve been working through some of these things? How’s that helped?

Ellen Williamson:

Working with the coach is always great. And I know if Bernadette gives me homework, I’m like, “Oh, I better do it. ” And so otherwise, it’s super easy to put off those business owner tasks because again, it’s always easy to … You can always find a client file that has something that needs to be done. And so this puts a little bit more of a timeframe of, “Oh, well, I’m going to see her Tuesday.” And I told her I was going to work on my task list, so I guess I better do that. But I’m also finding too that I learn a lot from the other labsters and someone else has had the same issue, whatever issue somebody brings, someone else has had it and has a good idea. And so it’s nice to have just that whole kind of accountability group, I would say.

Chad Fox:

Yeah. The community is great. It’s such a good group of people that we have in our lab community. And so as you’re transitioning into this, becoming more of the CEO of your business, what are some things that you would love to do? I’m kind of going off cuff here, but what are some things you want to be able to do more of in your life?

Ellen Williamson:

I’ve got a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old, so I’m very mindful that a lot of the time I’m going to get to have with them is in the next five years. And so I don’t want to wait till I’m an empty nester to say, “Now I’ve spent all this time building my practice. Now I have time to go do things with my kids.” Well, they’re off being adults doing their life. I want to get to enjoy things with them while they’re here. And my husband and I talk a lot about that right now we’re in kind of that spot. The kids are still at home. My parents are healthy and able to do things with us. So really getting to spend time getting to go do things with the people I love and get to be present with them instead of, yes, we were there, but I was on a conference call the whole time.That’s not what I want to do.

So when I want them to remember, yes, when went on vacation or we were all just sitting down at the dinner table, mom was there with us, not there in body and just sitting there working on our email.

Chad Fox:

Right. Yeah, that’s what it’s about, right? I mean, that’s why we do what we do. It’s that leverage. Love it. Well, thanks, Ellen. Hopefully we’ll be able to get some more runs in at Labcon this fall.

Ellen Williamson:

Yeah, looking forward to it. The early morning will surprise me again. I’ll learn nothing

Chad Fox:

From last time,

Ellen Williamson:

But yes, it’ll be fun.

Chad Fox:

So we’re having it at the same place it looks like. So we’ll be running those hilly, hilly streets again.

Ellen Williamson:

Yeah. Atlanta is surprisingly hilly.

Chad Fox:

Yeah, it was fun. All right. Well, I will see you soon.

Ellen Williamson:

Sounds good.

Chad Fox:

Take care.

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