Cybersecurity and Your Firm: Where Do You Stand? You Need to Know.

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to this edition of The Unbillable Hour, the Law Practice Advisory Podcast. This is where you’ll get the information you need from expert guests and host Christopher Anderson here on Legal Talk Network.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Welcome to The Unbillable Hour. I am your host, Christopher Anderson, and today’s episode is going to be a little bit different. As you know, in the main triangle of what it is a law firm must do, we often talk about acquiring new clients, we call it acquisition, producing the results that we promised production and achieving business and professional results for the owner. And of course, in the center of that triangle, we talk about you. You are the owner, you drive it all for better or worse. And those tend to be what we talk about, but today we’re going to be talking about cybersecurity. We’re going to be talking about basically keeping it all safe. So it’s a little bit about production. It’s a lot about production, but it’s also about acquisition because by making sure that we are meeting our goals, our obligations for our clients, we’re doing acquisition.

And this is also a little bit about achieving the business and professional results for the owner because one of those results is maintaining our ethical obligations of safekeeping, of confidentiality. And so this kind of touches everywhere. My guest today is Nick Martin. Nick is a cybersecurity expert. He’s the founder and CEO of File Science and that’s a leading provider of comprehensive cloud and cloud to cloud backup solutions for law firms, small businesses, nonprofits, Fortune 500 companies, everybody. And he champions a customer-centric approach, fostering innovation for their evolving IT needs. Martin serves as CEO of CyberGuardian Consulting Group as well, where he heads a multidisciplinary team of cybersecurity and IT specialists that support sectors including healthcare, law, insurance, government, capital management, and he’s a member of the US Secret Service Cyber Fraud Task Force. So Nick knows what he’s talking about when it comes to cybersecurity.

And we’ll start the conversation here in a second, but in the world where there’s this huge, huge shift for law firms to be putting a lot of reliance, a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of investment in AI and now agentic AI, these concerns have become really, really relevant. And so I’m super excited to introduce Nick Martin. Nick, welcome to the show.

Nick Martin:

Christopher, thanks so much. Appreciate.

Christopher T. Anderson:

So cybersecurity is not new and it’s not a new concern. And you know as well as our listeners know that safekeeping of our client’s information and data is a core requirement of the rules of professional conduct as competency on technology. And those two are really meeting here in this world. But like I said, it’s been since we’ve started, I remember when all the conversations we used to have before my time, it’s my understanding that law firms actually talked about whether it was ethical to facts. And before then there was actually a conversation, which I think was really at the time a good one was whether it was ethical to use the telephone.Back in the day when you had Mabel plugging in and saying, I’ll connect you and she could listen in. Was that really preserving confidentiality? And then we started talking about whether email was and whether using the web was and whether using client portals was.

And now the conversation is moving on to AI, cloud storage. I skipped that one. That was a huge one. So now we’re up to AI. But before we get to AI, Nick, let me just ask you about the pre-AI to sort of set the frame because I think what we talk about here is going to be important for the rest. A lot of law firms feel like because they’re now using Clio or MyCase or ActionStep or one of the –

Nick Martin:

NetDocuments.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. Well, so that was case management then or NetDocuments or iManage or SharePoint that A, they’re secure and then have satisfied the requirements regarding security of the information at rest and in transit. And B, that they’re effectively backing up things for their clients. Where are they getting that concept wrong?

Nick Martin:

Well, I think what that stems from most of the time is the leaders in law firms are looking at their IT department and many times their IT department is looking at Clio and documents, et cetera, and saying, well, it’s on their infrastructure and they have backups. And they’re always going to be up. Everyone, at least going back five years ago, would say that the cloud platforms are always up. Lately we’ve seen a lot of downtime. But the misunderstanding that’s very fundamental is there’s a shared responsibility model. And so if you’re doing, if you have files, emails, et cetera, on like Microsoft 365, almost every competent organization backs that up themselves. So Microsoft has their own backups for their own purposes, but what happens many times is human error. Somebody decides that a file is no longer needed and they remove it from that system. Once that’s removed, that data is not only removed from the access of you as the client, but it’s also removed from any backups that are ongoing post a certain period of time.

Traditionally it’s 30 or 60 days. And so that shared responsibility model is I think forgot sometimes because they put so much of the onus on that software as a service, that SaaS provider.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. And I mean, so like what you just highlighted is one, they’re doing it for their own reasons. And that they may not be anywhere even near compliant with what your actual obligations are. If we’re supposed to be keeping data and information for years and they’re keeping it for months or a month, that’s a big gap.

Nick Martin:

Yeah. And I’ll just mention also that as you’re saying, to tie into what I mentioned before with Microsoft 365, everyone has been backing it up. It’s a well-known fact in today’s space. But with Clio and NetDocuments and iManage and many others, MyCase, et cetera, some people haven’t gotten to that realization. They’re starting to learn and realize when they’ve had loss or when there’s been outages in service. But for a while they realized their thought that that could be, again, compliant and consistent with the regulations that should be in place, but it’s not.

Christopher T. Anderson:

My other thought though is I’ve worked with clients of ours who did do backups. They were running a backup every day and rotating them properly and keeping some offsite and doing all the things you’re supposed to do. And then when there was an outage, when their data was lost, then they turned to their backups. They’re like, “I have no idea how to use this. ” Yeah, because let’s talk about… And I don’t want to call out any one provider. So let’s talk about case management, like Clio, MyCase, Action Step. All right. All of them. I was just going to name one more. Okay. So you back it up, but part of their magic, part of why they work is their software. It’s a lot of data organized and presented on the internet on the browser or in an application in the context of some of them like PC Law or the Australian one.

I’m just blanking on. Are you talking

Nick Martin:

About Smokeball?

Christopher T. Anderson:

Smokeball. Thank you. The Action Steps Australian too. So they have this application layer. And if you have the data backed up, is that really meeting our obligation if we don’t know how to use it?

Nick Martin:

It’s a good point. Yeah. And so you talk about backups in the past. And so there’s a couple things. First is testing. You always need to be able to validate that you actually got what you’re expecting to get.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Ding, you’re backed up. Am I?

Nick Martin:

Yeah. My people just, they see an ad and they run the backup and they’ve never tested it for years. And that actually has become part of an insurance questionnaire that comes across very often for all types of companies is like, are you testing the backups? Not just taking them.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. You have to do a restore.

Nick Martin:

That’s correct. And so the other part is with a traditional server that sits somewhere that you can touch is different than, like you mentioned, the software as a service platform that sits on a web browser. Being able to recover that data post it being backed up can be, in many cases, just doesn’t happen at all. That’s the unique piece that we bring is that we have a one touch backup so you don’t have to think very hard about it. And it’s getting everything including metadata and pieces that you wouldn’t get if you were, let’s say, trying to back it up yourself, which also poses a lot of risks. But you’re getting the metadata as well as many other pieces and parts from that backup. And we can recover it the same way as well.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. But I guess this is an unfair question because I just thought of it. But does anybody do a backup? Is there any availability of a backup of like their operating system so that you can actually present the data in a way that’s usable?

Nick Martin:

So there’s two ways to think about it. And we do this for some of the larger firms that we work with. There’s no way to back up the operating system. Some platforms, because we do this while we do a lot in law, some platforms we back up are in healthcare. So like electronical medical records. And those systems, every system, by the way, every company’s a little special in how they’ve architected their platform. And it’s a different dance every time. It shouldn’t be, but it is. With EMRs in the healthcare space, there is SQL databases sometimes that we actually have to get sent to us on a regular basis, multiple times a day or once a night, depending on what the client’s preference is. And so that would be kind of closer to an operating system backup in some respect or some people would call it like an image level backup.

It’s not even quite that, but it’s enough to get what you need to then restore and recover. What you don’t want is a Clio or NetDocuments. I’m sure they are doing everything well above board and above best practices, but everyone suffers cyber attacks and some don’t recover from it. So if a ransomware attack had ensued on a Clio and they for every reason wanted to give you back a backup or your data, those sometimes, even if they were able to make a deal to get the ransomware, many people pay. You mentioned the Secret Service component earlier and I was at a meeting, we were chatting with some of the folks and one of them said, we have clients. And the question used to be, what do I do if I am attacked with ransomware? And they say that that model’s now changed to how do I have a Bitcoin wallet available when I’m attacked with ransomware?

So the models shifted significantly.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Like presuming we’re going to pay.

Nick Martin:

Right. Not only get attacked and pay. And then the question that is posed to me is what if a Clio or other provider is attacked with ransomware that is successful? How do you then in a world where they do want to pay and they send the money these bad actors are not perfect professionals. We’ve seen times when people have paid and those bad actors had only good intent after bad intent. You know what I mean? To give actually the key back to unencrypted data. But for one reason, the software that they built failed or something didn’t go through and they were sitting and they paid the ransom and they didn’t get their data back. And so then you as a firm, you’re sitting there without anything. And so having something in place is really important.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. Yeah. And of course, and having it done regularly because sometimes I’ve understood that sometimes the ransomware is embedded in the backups back to the first time it was infected.

Nick Martin:

Yeah. If someone gains access to an account and they’re slowly changing files over time, you want to have a long way to go back to make sure

Christopher T. Anderson:

You

Nick Martin:

Can recover.

Christopher T. Anderson:

I mean, we kind of touched on it already, but I just wanted to like… One of the reasons I think that law firms, and that’s who our listeners are, so we’re going to talk about law firms, probably aren’t where they could be or should be regarding backups regarding this fail safe capability is because there’s still a mindset that the chances are remote. Most of the law firms are operating almost entirely cloud. They’re using Gmail for the professional level or they’re using Office 365. Between those two, we’ve got most of it. They’re using a professional Clio, MyCase, Smokeball case management. They’re using a professional SharePoint iManage NetDocs document storage. They’re using professional everything else, payroll in the cloud, everything. And so they feel like these are big companies paying them a lot of money. I’m counting on them having this part. So with that, so they both think that they’re covered, which we talked about, but they also see like we don’t see it happening that much.

I wear my seatbelt, but I don’t have a three point seatbelt. I don’t have an aircraft style seatbelt because I don’t see people being ejected from their cars a whole lot. It probably should. I’d be safer. Can you speak to like, are these law firms living in a false sense of security? Not in that they’re abdicating the backup role, which we already talked about, but how is it happening today? Can you talk a little bit about, obviously don’t name names, don’t expose anybody, but what are the scenarios you’re seeing that are real life and that aren’t like pie in the sky, mission impossible kind of crap? Just stuff that’s happening every day that law firms should be concerned about.

Nick Martin:

Yeah. I mean, I’ll tell you, our sales team’s emails and inbound become very busy whenever one of these platforms goes offline. And as we mentioned, it’s happened more times than even I would expect, to be honest. There’s some rate of where they’d be down. They have SLAs in these agreements and they’ve missed those SLAs, which means it’s even outside of what they would have expected their downtime to be contractually. But in a regular scenario, what we see the most, I mean, there’s ransomware, there is sync errors or integration issues that happen. There’s malicious insiders, people that have intentions to do something to those companies, but those are, I would say, rare. What is most common is that there’s accidental deletion and overwrites. It’s the most frequent issue. So an attorney or a paralegal accidentally just moves something into the wrong directory or deletes it or saves over a template and it’s just not noticed until that SAS platform’s limited retention period has expired.

So often 30, 60 days generally is what we see. And so someone’s going back for that because there’s whatever, a lawsuit that’s in motion and they don’t have that. We’ve seen that actually in the past where it’s caused real damage and has even created lawsuits from that where those firms have had suffered loss.

Christopher T. Anderson:

I’ve seen that. I mean, I’ve seen that happen. And you don’t even know it’s until it’s happened.

Nick Martin:

I think every time we’ve had that conversation or have I talked to somebody and I’ve said, “Yeah, someone has like by accidentally deleted something or overwritten it. ” And sometimes it’s not even, let’s say a paralegal or an attorney, sometimes it’s IT. So IT is going through doing cleanup or maintenance. It was Janice’s last day and they removed her account and her account, depending on the platform was tied to particular data. And when they just unlicensed it, Microsoft 365 is a good example. If you take an account and you remove the license because they’re trying to move it to someone new who was hired or they are consolidating to save costs, there’s a ton of waste in the SaaS space with extra licensing. And in Microsoft land, in 30 days, an unlicensed account purges. Everything that’s in SharePoint, in OneDrive, in their emails, calendar, et cetera, that’s tied directly to that user is purging.

And we’ve seen folks that are having business continuity issues and facing litigation because the data’s no longer available.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. And then there’s the ones that don’t even realize they did it for way, way too long. Or this is one. We’re not going to quite transition to AI just yet, but recently a company that… You know what? I’m not going to name it. A company, one of the AI companies had produced an agentic AI for a business. And they had guardrails in place that said you must not delete anything. And the agent deleted everything. And when asked whether or not it knew about the guardrails, it said, “Yes, I did. I just chose to ignore them.” Yeah.

Nick Martin:

You make an interesting point about the AI piece. I mean, that’s where it’s going. Agentic workflows are great. It makes us all move a lot faster. We love it. But I would say that the statistic is 95% of enterprise AI deployments fail. And there’s the risk that yes, completely unintentionally it is purging data and no one is following the logs and looking overseeing what that agent or agents are doing. And those workflows can be really dangerous if left unattended. And sometimes you can come back to no files.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. So that’s a great example. All right. What we’re going to do here is, because one of the things we just cannot purge because we don’t want to, is that this show is sponsored by wonderful companies that like to have a word with our listeners. But we’ll be back in just a second with Nick Martin. He is a cybersecurity expert, founder and CEO of File Science. And we’re going to be talking about now, okay, what do you do next? And we’ll do that once we’re back. We’re back with Nick Martin. So Nick, let’s just get to the nitty gritty. The listeners of the show are managing partners, owners of small and midsize law firms. If we have a firm administrator, managing partner who is listening, who has until now though our IT team has this covered and is now entering mild panic, what questions would you say they should be asking to make sure they are in fact covered?

Nick Martin:

Yeah. There’s a long list of questions. I would start by saying if an attorney or other individual in the practice deletes a file and we didn’t notice for six months, how can we retrieve that file? I would say that you would ask, are our backups stored independently from the platform itself? You don’t want to be completely reliant. And I’ll tell you something else about having… Part of it is backing up your data, meeting compliance and retention. The other part is owning your data.Because we’ve seen where a firm wanted to leave a platform. And I don’t want to say that the platform was holding them hostage, but the way and how they were migrating out of that platform was costing them an unusually large amount of money. And they were incredibly frustrated but had no option but to say, yes, we’ll pay it because it was almost like they were being ransomed by their platform.

Christopher T. Anderson:

I was going to say ransomware by another name, right?

Nick Martin:

Yeah. And I think another good question is, and we kind of covered this a little bit earlier, is when was the last time we actually tested a full data restore? And I would imagine many times the answer is we haven’t in terms of for the SaaS

Christopher T. Anderson:

Related platforms.

Nick Martin:

Yeah, ever.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. I mean, I remember back again, it’s relevant not because it would happen the same way, but back in the day I had a client who was so diligent with their backups. And what they didn’t realize was that the safe in which they were storing their backup tapes was near a transformer that had a strong magnetic field and was degrading the tapes. And so

None of them were usable, but they had no idea. No idea at all until again, they needed it. And that’s when they found out because they hadn’t tried to restore. And the same thing goes if you’re storing… There’s cloud to cloud backup, which is perfectly fine, but test it. Test it because you got to make sure that it works. It may not be gaused, but there may be another reason. So let’s again, I don’t want to make this the panic show or the doom and gloom show. For these same IT directors or managing partners that you were just talking to, just let’s go for a midsize firm, 25 lawyers. They don’t have a large IT department or any. What does a realistic data protection plan look like for a firm like that? That affordable and realistic and pragmatic, what can they be doing to be doing better?

And so this isn’t a the sky is falling thing. Just what’s the steps they should be doing?

Nick Martin:

Well, I think there’s a couple ways to look at it. You have to assess what you have on premise and what you have in the cloud. I think that’s the first part. The on – premise very mature in terms of backup. So if you’re running a Windows server or a Linux server, there’s some really clean cut approaches to be able to back that up. A lot of platforms exist in that space. It’s like very heavily saturated. The other part is then what do you have in the cloud? And those workloads can look like Google Workspace or Microsoft 365 or Clio, et cetera, et cetera. And in other worlds, you can also think about the configuration of those clouds. What uses exist, what groups exist, what is configured for integrations and making sure that you can recover from that. And for smaller firms that don’t have the budget, the best way is to find…

25 people is I think large enough. We have firms that are –

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah, I said 25 lawyers. So 25 lawyers total 50, 50 people.

Nick Martin:

I’ll tell you. We have firms that are as large as in the thousands and we have ones that are sole proprietors or sole practitioners. And so I think for those guys who really don’t have a budget and don’t have an IT team or are not familiar with it at all, I think you want to be as risk adverse as possible and as low as a lift as possible. And that looks like an automated solution that you can press and back up. At 25 attorneys, I think you have a bit more sophistication. And so you can start asking more complicated questions like how do I make sure there’s air gapped storage and immutable backups and end-to-end encryption and things like that, which we do. But I would say making sure that there’s a automated zero daily maintenance process in place for everything is the right way to go.

And it’s likely easier to move your workloads to the cloud if there’s on – prem that still exists, like servers that you can physically touch. That’s normally not the right way to go as a small firm. It’s way too much overhead.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. Yeah. I can definitely see that. I wanted to ask a couple things that we didn’t cover specifically because one of them really is the one that sometimes gets on my mind. And that is, we’ve been talking about being on the cloud, we’ve been talking about backups, we’ve talked about cybersecurity, we’re talking about all the things inside the firm’s systems. Let’s talk about the people and their laptops and the data that they store on them and the potential for loss of that data or escape of that data into the wild. What should firms be thinking about regarding that? Regarding the fact that we’re all walking around with data storage devices, phones, watches, laptops, iPads that all have sensitive, important and don’t want to lose data on them. What should we be thinking about those?

Nick Martin:

Devices, laptops, desktops, servers, iPhones, Android watches, tablets, all of that is something that your IT or cybersecurity team should put into place. And what that looks like is the following. It looks like endpoint detection and response to start, which is call it a next generation approach to antivirus. So popular companies that exist in that space that sell it is CrowdStrike and SentinelOne. And so in one of our companies, we’re partners with SentinelOne. They’re publicly traded. They do great job, do a really great job. You want to think about zero trust. It’s a layered

Approach as well. It’s not just one solution. And so with endpoints, you want to think about zero trust. Having something that is denied by default, which can be very hard to implement, especially in the larger organizations. If it’s the 25 attorney firm you mentioned before, it’s pretty doable. But if it’s a 2000 employee firm, it starts to be very difficult to implement, but still can be done and should be done. The hard work should, it’s worth it. And it’s default deny by not allowing any process to run that we’re not aware of. Meaning that you do the same workflow, I’m sure, Christopher, that you do every day. It doesn’t change much, meaning like you use Chrome or Firefox or Safari, you use Word or Excel or PowerPoint and Outlook, you use a few other programs. And for the most part, there’s not new programs being introduced into your workflow very often.

And so we look at that and if anything else is running aside from what we’ve effectively whitelisted and have known information that it’s a product that is not malicious, that can’t behave maliciously, that’s what we talk about with zero trust. And then on top of that, you might get an email and it gets past your filters and it’s a Word document and you open that Word document. And then all of a sudden Microsoft Word is attempting to communicate with PowerShell or command line. And so we look at that cross pollination between programs and we would say like, why is Word trying to launch PowerShell scripts? And so the default deny, again, doesn’t allow programs to talk to each other unless we’ve allowed them to talk to each other. And specifically what is being communicated between them is also monitored. So you want to have zero trust, you want to have endpoint detection and response.

You want to be able to have just the visibility, right? The threat hunt on top of that. So you should be keeping data for a long period of time. So you can always have some kind of approach to understand the timeline really well. We partner with Google’s threat intelligence and Mandy, who they bought a long time ago to be able to ingest that and then enhance that data. I would also say that

On mobile devices, you want to have mobile device management

And depending on who you are and what company you are, there’s different flavors of that that make the most sense. There are executives and now with AI and those attacks that are targeting a CEOs and chairmen and people alike in the space. If you’re a big firm, there are nation state level targeted attacks. And so if you’re the 25 person firm, you’re fine. But again, if you’re some of my good buddies, hopefully listening at Gibson Dunn or Davis Polk, but if you’re one of them, you get to think really hard about how you can protect your executive devices. There’s a Wall Street Journal article I’m in that talks about how also at that level, it’s like personal and work is one and sometimes it gets looked at too much like they’re separate. And so you’re talking about devices and I’m talking about work devices and then personal devices and how do you think about the protection of both?

Because someone who’s targeting you at a nation state level to get access is looking at both your personal and your work. And funny enough, I think today or yesterday, a Forbes article came out about that and how it’s so easy to find your personal number and be able to create zero day attacks. And all that to say

Is there are zero day, zero click attacks on Android and iOS phones. And even if you can’t prevent it, which I believe you can, you at the worst case want to be able to have visibility to know that this happened, right?

Announcer:

Yeah.

Nick Martin:

Pegasus is a big thing for a while and it’s still out in the wild. And you want to make sure that you’re able to protect against or at least have, like I said, the visibility for these types of attacks.

Christopher T. Anderson:

All right. We are going to take one more little break here, speak to our sponsors one more time or let them speak to the listeners. And we’ll be back with Nick Martin, cybersecurity expert, CEO of File Science, also CEO of Cyber Guardian Consulting Group. And we’ll be back in just a minute. All right. We are back with Nick Martin and we’ve been talking about cybersecurity. We’ve been talking about backups. We’ve been talking about the things to worry about. What about people? What should firms be doing to upgrade their people against, or let’s not say upgrade, inoculate their people against things, against behaviors? And I’ve heard, you were talking about nation state level stuff and larger firms, but I’ve heard that actually the small to midsize firms are kind of the soft underbelly that people are going after now because everybody else is kind of toughened up.

And yet these small to midsize firms, first of all, that’s most lawyers. They possess a treasure trove of really valuable stuff. Indeed. And the biggest vulnerability is the people. The people who receive an email and do the thing that the email asks them to do or even like you said, just open it. Or even you said some zero day stuff, like don’t even have to open it. How can we toughen up our teams as small and midsize firms? What should we be teaching them to make them part of the solution rather than part of the problem?

Nick Martin:

There are great SOPs and best practices to make sure that individuals are, for example, taking the proper precautions before sending a wire with a lot of that’s valued in a large number. But aside from that, I am very pro… While training is great and I think it should be done, I do believe that human error tends to be the main fault when it comes to cybersecurity or data loss. And I am a strong proponent that you do not need to rely on them. They get it right every time and you probably shouldn’t because they will eventually get it wrong. And so putting in great practices is the way to be sure that your firm or company is protected. You should not rely on the human error factor because it’s bound to happen. And there are ways to put it in place. It can be more costly.

It can be more time consuming, but you can make it where your identity layer, like you mentioned clicking on an email, maybe it’s a phishing email is a lot stronger. So even if someone makes the mistake where they click the link and they put in their login and there’s MFA, they support compromise via MFA now. It’s like a real time attack and you want someone to be able to put in their username, their password and their MFA token and that bad actors still not have access instead of hoping and praying that they don’t do it.

Christopher T. Anderson:

So you play it on humans being humans, in other words.

Nick Martin:

That’s right.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. Yeah. I get that. All right, Nick, I think we’re going to have to leave it there. It’s been a real pleasure. And I know we’ve just scratched the surface of so much of this. If listeners want to learn more, get in touch with you, find out how you can help them, how should they reach out?

Nick Martin:

You can go to filesigns.io. We have a chat and phone number and contact information to book a meeting. So feel free to give us a buzz.

Christopher T. Anderson:

All right. Definitely will do that. Nic, thank you so much for being on the show.

Nick Martin:

Appreciate it. Thank you, Christopher.

Christopher T. Anderson:

You betcha. And of course, this is Christopher Anderson. I look forward to being with all of you next month with another great guest as we learn more about the topics that help us build and keep safe the law firm business that works for you. And don’t forget, in addition to the Unbillable Hour, you have reserved a seat at the table. We produce a new show, a new seat at the table every Thursday of the month. And then we make those available to you where we learn and go deeper onto the topics that we talk about here on The Unbillable Hour with a panel of folks who know what they’re talking about. So join us with your seat at the table as well as back here at The Unbillable Hour. All the additions of this podcast are at legaltalkingnetwork.com or on iTunes. You can subscribe there.

Thank you so much for joining us. We will speak again soon.

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