Business Development for Lawyers: Building Real Relationships That Lead to Clients, with Megan Senese

Episode Notes

Transcript

Zack Glaser:

Hi, I’m Zack.

Stephanie Everett:

And I’m Stephanie, and this is episode 608 of The Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, I’m talking with Megan Sanis about the human side of marketing.

Zack Glaser:

I like that. I don’t know exactly what it is, but I like that.

Stephanie Everett:

Exactly.

Zack Glaser:

Now

Stephanie Everett:

You got to listen to find out.

Zack Glaser:

Yeah. So Stephanie, I don’t know how to say this exactly, but happy birthday early and also belated. Because as we’re recording this, it’s not quite your birthday, but as this comes out, it’ll be the day after your birthday, right?

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. 51, if you can believe it.

Zack Glaser:

No, I can’t. I

Stephanie Everett:

Can’t. I can’t either. I don’t feel old until suddenly something … I think my 30th college reunion or something’s coming up this spring and I’m like, “What? How

Zack Glaser:

Is that possible?” That’ll do it. Yeah. And then when kids and nieces and nephews and the next generation start hitting these milestones that you’re like, “Wait, I just did that. I just graduated from college. How are you graduating from college?” Yeah. Well, okay. So speaking of birthdays, I remember coming to Lawyerist and I think our company has always done a really good job, and I think this is important for firms, of celebrating the people that work there. And I have multiple things from lawyers that I’ve gotten for my birthday that weren’t extravagant. It wasn’t something huge, but it was always very thoughtful stuff. And I got a book on making nachos because I love nachos. I have a specific little … It’s a mini pinata that I’ve had for years and years that had candy in it that was sent to me. But it’s just the little things that … Obviously, I remember that the company has sent me multiple things for my birthday and I really appreciate that.

And I don’t know that we always think about that.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. Well, and I think the catcher on that one, because I remember you joined the team and it was your birthday pretty soon after. It was. And we got you that nacho book and I think some nacho socks, I feel like. Do I remember that right?

Zack Glaser:

Yes. I still have the nacho socks and I wear them to conferences. Yeah.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. So here’s the little secret or trick, because when you joined the team, we had you fill out a form that we just made up and it was all about you, help us learn about you. And we asked you some silly questions, favorite food, what do you like to do? Do you have a sports team that you root for? We just asked some pretty, not invasive, but some-

Zack Glaser:

It wasn’t PHI. Yeah.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. It was just like, how do we get to know Zack? And you forgot that you filled out that form. And so when the nacho socks … Yeah, right. And then when the nacho socks showed up, you were just like, “What? How did you guys know? ” How did y’all know? I love nachos.

Zack Glaser:

And

Stephanie Everett:

We were like, “Oh, how did we know, Zack?” Well, we asked you in that form, but it was like, because it is hard, because that’s the challenge. How do you get to know team members and know they have a secret love of nachos? And I guess my point is the good news for you is you don’t have to go do a bunch of detective work. You can simply be intentional on day one about how do we start to get to know this team member so that we can. I mean, I think it even asked if you had charities that you support, because maybe one day we want to give a donation to a charity in your name. Wouldn’t it be great to know if there’s some causes that are near and dear to your heart? So it asked all kinds of questions like that that allowed us to then be thoughtful when we do give gifts.

Zack Glaser:

I love that one. And obviously you can translate that into working with your clients as well, because to me, a lot of the moral of this story is how delighted I was and always am at like, oh, even though I know once I found out, oh yeah, they asked me those questions already, didn’t make it any less delightful.

Stephanie Everett:

I love that. So celebrate your people, be intentional and build those little processes into it because we’re with our work friends for a lot of the day and we should try to celebrate them, make it fun.

Zack Glaser:

Well, before we go off into your interview with Megan, happy belated birthday, Stephanie. I hope that you were able to be celebrated yesterday.

Stephanie Everett:

Thank you.

Zack Glaser:

But now here’s your conversation with Megan.

Megan Senese:

So hi, I’m Megan. I’m a former big law business developer, turned marketing business development consulting for my company called Stage.

Stephanie Everett:

Hey, Megan, I’m so excited to have you on today talking about everyone’s favorite topic, right? Business development. I’m being a little … I mean, they know they need it. Sometimes they’re like, “I got to do it.

Megan Senese:

” Yeah. I mean, I understand it’s not easy to … Professional services, lawyers, accountants, right? They’re one of the only kind of industries that have to get the business, bring it in the door, service the client at the same time. So I love to tell the story about how my husband is in sales and he sells food to restaurants. So he cold calls people and now he has relationships and things like that, but he’s not making the French fries. He’s not delivering the French fries. He’s just maintaining the relationship. And that’s the piece that’s so tricky for lawyers in particular, because you have huge amounts of billable hour requirements if you work in a big firm, and it takes a lot of work to build relationships, to get to the point of pitching, to get to the point of getting work in the door, and then maintaining that relationship.

It’s not easy. So now, if anything, I really understand that struggle of people rolling their eyes and groaning every time the word business development is used.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. But I think too, and I know this is part of your platform, I think that also part of the reason we groan and moan is because we think we have to put on this salesperson hat and maybe enter into a persona that feels really uncomfortable and icky. And I know so many people are like, “I don’t want to go work a room at a networking event or I don’t want to do fill in the blank, whatever I think marketing and business development work is. ” And so what do you say to those folks? Because I love your answer to this.

Megan Senese:

So my approach is that one size doesn’t fit all and that you need to lean into the thing that feels comfortable for you and figuring out what that looks like. And I think a lot of us grew up in a way that networking is done on the golf course or over really expensive cocktails. And if that’s your thing, do that, right? But if that feels really uncomfortable for you, there are now new ways that you can lean towards connecting with people. And really that’s the key point. It’s about connecting so that you can be of service and so that you can help that contact. And sometimes it might be listening to their business challenges and other times as you’re starting to build that relationship, it might simply be just listening to them and giving them a book recommendation or a restaurant recommendation. And that’s how you become the trusted advisor.

So it’s leaning into the things that you like to do, particularly if you’re going to be away from your friends and your family and your home, it’s better to focus on the things that you want if you have to take time away.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. And I feel like when you do that too, if I’m in an environment that I like and doing something I love doing, I’m going to show up differently. I’m just going to be more comfortable. I’m going to be myself. You might like me a little bit more because I’m not fidgeting, feeling awkward if I’m in an uncomfortable environment.

Megan Senese:

Yeah. So many lawyers want to know what’s the best practice, right? Tell me the best practice. What’s the precedent? I want to know to do it correctly and 100% the way that you’re supposed to do it. And I don’t know what’s going on in that person’s life or what you like to do. And so there are going to be times that you have to go to a big conference. And that’s the time where we’re saying, okay, if that’s the case, then let’s try to figure out what are the pieces of a big conference that you like. Is it the one-to-one connection? And if that’s the case, then let’s figure out how we can pre-connect with people beforehand so that you can reach out and say, “Hey, Stephanie, I’m going to be at this conference. You and I have only met virtually. I’d love to meet you in person.” And that’s ways that you can take something that’s really big and overwhelming and digest it down to something small so that you can show up as your best self.

Stephanie Everett:

I think that is such smart advice. It sounds so easy. When you say it, you’re like, “Oh, of course, of course that’s what we should do. ” I mean, I think the hard part’s in practice.

Megan Senese:

Yeah. We kind of spin out about, well, I see what other people are doing and it looks like they’re having success and maybe I should be doing that. And law firms love to be kind of raced to second where if that firm did, then I have to do it. And I don’t think that’s necessarily the best approach every single time. It’s who do you want to be? How do you want to show up? How do you want to feel? Who do you want around you? And those are just like, you could just live your life like that, but you can also incorporate that in terms of how do you want to feel in your business, particularly as if you are now able to direct flow of who’s coming into you, right? I think that’s the piece that a lot of partners, particularly in big law, kind of forget.

You are actually in charge of who you bring in, what kind of clients you want to work with. And if you’re going to go after people who left, just sit and crochet with you, that’s going to be way more enjoyable, which actually I’m using crochet because that’s a real life example that I have a client who did and was able to do.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, same. And I was just reminding of remembering a story I know of an associate who he was kind of this pretty shy kind of reserved guy. And so I got to talk to him and I was like, “What do you love doing?” And suddenly he started talking to me about succulents and he had a succulent collection. He loved planting them, he loved creating them. I don’t know. There were also herbs and other micro little plants. There was a name for it. He started talking about all this lit up. And I was like, “What if you invited three or four people you know and said, Hey, will you invite someone that you know, I’m going to have a small gathering, a succulent party, if you will, where we’re all going to learn about

Zack Glaser:

These

Stephanie Everett:

Plants and yeah, make a little thing.” And I was like, “But you could invite a couple of friends, but then you asked them to bring someone and now you’re in your element, you’re doing something you love and it’s a way to meet new people and have fun.” And he just looked at me and was like, “I could do that. ” That’s allowed. I was like, “Yes, there are no rules. Go do it.

Megan Senese:

” Yeah. I mean, he could even send those as gifts, “I made this plant for you. ” If somebody made something for me, that’s even better. And sometimes the smaller, the better. I’ve gotten such great success with sometimes sending a personalized sticker or a tiny little gift card or just something that is not a throwaway, it’s intentional and it’s thoughtful, but that’s also leaning into what we want our lawyers to do. We want people to know what it’s like to work with them. So you could even argue to say with that associate and his planting that he takes a moment to think about the best conditions for that plant and how is that plant going to thrive? And there’s so many ways that that can be translated into literally into the legal work.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, I love that because I know once you meet the people, I think where we’re going is you got to continue to … The plant really works here too. You got to nurture that relationship. Yeah. They’re not going to meet you once and then send you a bunch of business probably. I mean, we know that it usually takes a little bit of time. And so then it’s thinking about how you stay connected to that person. How do you keep showing up? And I think some people also struggle with that. I mean, we’ve all heard like, send them an article. Sometimes I think the advice feels a little stale. So what do you tell people? How do you keep that fresh? And maybe not overboard on the budget.

Megan Senese:

Overboard. Well, and that’s why as a smaller business, a sticker is not a huge cost investment. And I have been pretty surprised with the reaction of people when we’ve sent something that is maybe in that two to $5 range even. We’ve had a lot of success even with handwritten notes and we’ve done a couple of campaigns on what we call off cycle gifting. So we do something in the summer just so it stands out a little bit more. And then I love to try things myself because I don’t want to … I think there’s something kind of toned off about being a consultant who runs around and says, “Here’s the best practice and you should do this. ” And then they don’t do it themselves. So I love to try things ourselves first and then say, “Hey, when I was in house at Big Law, this worked.

And also I have to do the same thing. I have to get clients in the door. I have to service them and I tried this approach for myself. It worked.” Feel free to try it. If it doesn’t work for you, we’ll do something else. So handwritten cards, like tiny, thoughtful gestures is another way to stay top of mind. I mean, sending an article is still really helpful, but if you are telling the person why, right? So you’re not just blasting stuff out. It’s not just a blast of client thought leadership. It would be more of, we talked about this, particularly at that conference that we just met, right? We just met at this conference and you mentioned this you were interested in. We were just going to pick on the succulent person. You mentioned your interest in Succulents. I just saw this article. It made me think of you.

Here’s the reason why. So there has to be more intentionality and you’re not going to then send them a succulent article every week because then that’s overboard, but it’s being intentional and then trying to set up another time to meet and to build that relationship. The number used to be anywhere between like five to 10 interactions before you got to a win. I actually have been seeing now that the numbers move from 10 to 18 interactions. People are saying a win. I think it’s a pitch. So if you’ve had 18 interactions with someone who you just met brand new, to even be able to get to that kind of conversation about what’s top of mind for you. And I’m not suggesting you have to wait on the 18th time, right? It’s just a general sense, but I mean, that’s a long lead time. That’s if you’re doing it once a month, you’re reaching out.

It takes a while to build that relationship. And so I think people give up because they’re not persistent or they’re not disciplined or they forget and that’s where business development can come in and you can help remind that person and keep them accountable, but not in a way that’s going to shame people.

Stephanie Everett:

When it’s time to get to the pitch, I think this is also a place where lawyers struggle because they don’t know, how do I bring it up? How do I ask for business or how do I ask for business directly or referral, but depending on what kind of contact you’re dealing with. And I’m just curious what advice you might give to some folks in that regard.

Megan Senese:

Yeah. So I’ve prepared so many pitches for lawyers in my previous lives. And I worked in quite a few different big law capacity and it was always like this urgent … The pitching, I think you have to understand if it really is an opportunity. Is it an active opportunity? And there are times you just have to slot materials together and that’s what happens. That’s not what I recommend. What I think is helpful is to really figure out what the client is asking you for. And the deeper relationship you have with someone, the less salesy it becomes. It then is like, how can I help you? And so when I do my meet and greet conversations, and now what I’m offering up to our clients is, how can I help you? How can I support you? What do you need right now? I mean, you can think about what kind of question, how to turn that question so it feels authentic for you.

But if you’re asking, “What are you struggling with right now?” It’s kind of like a take on like, “What keeps you up at night?” And then ask them as once they’ve provided that answer, “Would it be helpful if I, ” fill in the blank, right? So if they’re saying, “Oh, I’m like, I have a lot of people turning over right now. So many people are leaving my company.” Then you’d be like, “Oh, would it be helpful if I introduce you to our employment lawyer?” They have this great handbook on how to keep better retention policy. I don’t know, right? Or would it be helpful if I introduced you to our executive comp team because they’ll be able to help you structure those packages as people are leaving? And they say, “Yeah, actually, or no, no, actually I don’t need that at all. What I do need is … ” And so I think a lot of people get nervous and you’re presuming that you know what that person needs.

So I’m going to go in with my entire firm, this is not to do, I’m going to go in with my entire firm and it’s a 300 page PowerPoint deck, which again, I’ve done of every single thing and every single person’s bio and every page overview and no one’s reading it and it doesn’t feel like it’s custom or tailored. And so to the extent that people can ask questions, what would be helpful for you? What are you really needing right now? And then trust that there’ll be another opportunity to bring in additional services. Not like, “Oh, I know you wanted a minivan, but did you also see our Hummers over here?” No, nobody wants that. So it’s not just selling for the sake of selling.

Stephanie Everett:

Again, it sounds so simple when you say it. And so you’re just like, “Oh yeah, that just makes a lot of sense.” But I think we kind of get in our heads or we worry and we get all awkward and weird. So I love that you’re just kind of making it so relatable and easy.

Megan Senese:

Yeah, I think people get scared. It can be scary if you don’t know someone and you feel like there’s also this scarcity mindset. So if it’s this is my only opportunity to be in front of this person, then how you’re approaching the situation is going to feel differently than I’m going to use this to ask questions so I can come up with something that’s really thoughtful and tailored for that one person, even if it means a tiny piece of work right now. You have to trust that there will be another opportunity to bring in the rest of the firm. And I think people, putting RFP bids aside, there are times where people feel like they have to shove as many practice groups as possible into that one general council because it’s a limited window. And I get that people are really busy, but if you make it that you listened and you’re showing them how you care, then there will be an opportunity to show how you care again.

And then the business development continues, right? It’s not just a pitch and then you never see them again.

Stephanie Everett:

Makes sense. Well, let me shift gears just a little bit. One of our core values here for our team is stay curious. And so sometimes I like to ask people, what are you curious about right now or what are you learning? It can be professional or personal, wherever you want to go with it, but …

Megan Senese:

Right before I popped on, I was in the process of building a chat agent, a ChatGPT agent. So I’m trying to make sure that I’m staying up to speed on all the different things. We’re a mean and lean team, so we need as many efficiencies as possible. So building an agent is new. That’s new for me. My children keep me curious just in terms of the things that they’re doing. So I know a lot about travel soccer and drums right now because my son is taking drum lessons. My daughter’s in travel soccer. So trying to stay open-minded and read and all the things.

Stephanie Everett:

I love it. Well, I won’t take us down a journey because I only have one kid who also is in travel soccer, although now we’re on the high school team and we have a game in a couple hours, a match. And Anne also plays the drums. Oh my gosh. So we could sit here and chat for a long time. I know, crazy.

Megan Senese:

See,

Stephanie Everett:

We wouldn’t have- My kids could hang out with your kids.

Megan Senese:

Yeah. My son is seven, so probably your child could babysit my child. So I’ll take that. He just started drums, which is really fun. And we bought him a mini drum kit. Do you have a drum kit in your house?

Stephanie Everett:

We do. It is very loud. In fact, Alex was just inviting the grandparents over like, “You should come and hear me drum.” And we were joking because we’re like, “You don’t even have to come in the house. You could probably just stand outside.” You see it just fine. I mean, you know you hear drums and you think, of course it’s going to be loud. I don’t think I appreciated just how loud it was going to be. So now, luckily Alex is old enough to stay by themselves. So when we leave the house, it’s drum time.

Megan Senese:

Yeah. No, we’re not quite there. Something about forward too. On the seven year old, but the drum teacher wears earplugs, which I find just hilarious. He’s like, “Okay, it’s time to put the earplugs in now.” I’m like, “I should be bringing these.” Oh, I love that. I love the …

Zack Glaser:

Yeah.

Megan Senese:

Are you going to drum? Do you drum then too? Do you hop on the drum set?

Stephanie Everett:

For fun, just to irritate really more than … I mean, she tried to teach me something the other night and then she was like, “Mom, why don’t you get this? ” I’m like, “It’s harder than it looks.” I love

Megan Senese:

That.

Stephanie Everett:

But they say lawyers, by the way, should go play musical instruments. It’s good for our brains because it triggers a different part of your brain and actually can improve your ability to practice law. So there you go.

Megan Senese:

We had a partner who is a conductor of an orchestra group and on our show, on our podcast. And so we just loved sharing that story and composes music. And that was just a great example of exactly what you’re talking about.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. And good marketing opportunity. Then they could invite people to their show. So bring it whole circle.

Megan Senese:

100%.

Stephanie Everett:

Megan, we’ll make sure to put your information in our show notes, including your show. You have a podcast, but so if people are interested, why don’t you tell us where we can find you and learn more?

Megan Senese:

Yes. I’m always hanging around on LinkedIn, so you can find me on LinkedIn, or they can go to our website, which is stage.guide.

Stephanie Everett:

Awesome. Well, thank you. It’s been great talking to you and I’m excited. I’m going to go try some of these techniques out myself and make marketing real.

Megan Senese:

Yeah. And then you can follow up and tell me how it went.

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