Seat at the Table: Maximizing the Value of Non-Attorney Salespeople

Episode Notes

Transcript

Christopher T. Anderson:

It’s still fascinating to me that we’re having this conversation with law firm owners, with attorneys, that whether or not using a non-attorney salesperson makes sense for their business, makes sense for their clients and makes sense for how they bring new clients into the firm. We should get past the conversation about whether or not it makes sense and onto the conversation which we’re going to have today, which is how to maximize the value of that non-attorney salesperson.

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Unbillable hour seat at the table, monthly round table discussion between industry professionals about topics most relevant to law firm owners today.

Christopher T. Anderson:

All right. We are here with Rob Leitner, Elliot and Erik Alicea, and we are talking about non-attorney sales folks. Like I was saying, the idea that we’re having the conversation still about whether or not I find fascinating, but we’re going to have it a little bit today, but mostly what we’re going to focus on is how to maximize the value because for those who have taken the leap, some people have concerns, some people are still trying to make it work the best way. And I think we could really have some good conversation here about how to do that. But first of all, Elliot, I know you work with a bunch of folks who are learning to be better at being non-attorney salespersons. Before we get to going to maximize value, I think it’d be great to just start with you. How would you define the role of the non-attorney salesperson?

Who are they? Who are these people on that law firm should be using? What’s your best description for them?

Elliot Alicea:

Yeah. So I think having a good title makes lawyers feel better about having them in staff. So client engagement specialist, client liaison, client welcome specialist, there’s all kinds of names, but essentially the name like that kind of tells you what they do. Their whole job is to welcome clients, potential clients to the firm and make sure that the firm is a good fit for them and they’re a good fit for the firm. I think that’s like when people realize it’s not the icky word that they think of sales, like car sales people, they start to feel a little better about the position. And so to me, I think that’s like the really important thing is as a law firm, it’s not icky sales, it’s more so sales as a service, which I’ve heard wise people call it as that before. So when I work with them, I try and always relate it back to you’re here to do a service and you’re here to shepherd them into the firm if they’re a good fit, but you’re not here to sell snake oil or anything like that.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. So that’s definitely the role, but like who are they? From your experience, who are these people? Well, I shouldn’t say there’s no, but there’s no real marketplace for non-attorney salespeople and it’s not really easy to find them. And my experience has been if you advertise for that, nobody answers. But who are the people that you see every day that are doing this job?

Elliot Alicea:

I would say the two best that I come across are either people who have been through the thing that they’re selling. So let’s say it’s a family law firm, they’ve been divorced, or let’s say it’s an estate planning firm, they really needed help with their trust or they went through probate or they can really relate and they can speak to the person’s pain or situation. That’s usually a very strong candidate as long as they have good people skills. The second is going to be somebody who has done sales and I would probably say they don’t have to be legal specific, but they know how to talk to people, they know how to listen to people usually somebody who’s done it doesn’t have to be high ticket sales. It can be any kind of sales position. But it’s funny, I like to call it like they have personality plus.

If you think about like an airline, you get a little bit more personality out of them. If they can’t really hold a conversation and they don’t have decent tonality and they can’t put on like the customer service voice essentially, they’re probably not going to be that great at it. So like they have sales experience, they’ve been through the thing and they have personality plus are the best ones that I see. And as a side note, what I always like tell people if they’re trying to hire them is role play their last thing with them or like role play a conversation to hear how would they talk to you?

Christopher T. Anderson:

No, it makes a whole lot of sense. Rob, I know you’ve really helped a lot of firms to find people for this role. Where have you

Rob Letiner:

Looked?That’s an interesting question. We can certainly tackle the usual recruitment channels like a wise hire, Indeed, state bar classifieds, recruiters, LinkedIn jobs, et cetera. But many of the best non-attorney salespeople come from top level service businesses like a Jaguar dealer, a Rolex store, medical sales. I recommend you keep your eyes and ears open during your daily interactions with

Salespeople. That’s kind of their interview. Their interactions with you while they’re selling at their place of business, that’s really who they are. The key is you’re trying to find a sales professional, not a legal professional. So super important. And I’d also recommend that when you find some candidates and you conduct interviews, put them on the hot seat immediately. This is not the time to give softball questions, right? You want to know how they respond, you want to see them think on their feet, you want to ask them about the top objections they received in their last sales role. You want to know how they overcame those objections. And finally, in terms of thinking about the future, do they have experience training the rest of their staff? You can save a lot of money and time down the road if we can find someone who really has done that before and created a true team.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Oh yeah, that’s a great point. So Erik, who do you bump into from time to time that you think that you thought to yourself, this would be possibly someone who could sit in that chair of the non-attorney salesperson?

Erik Alicea:

This was actually a recruiting hack that one of our good friends and clients has told us about. If you find a great sales person that you bump into on the weekend, the easiest way to get them to work for your law firm is to tell them that they don’t have to work weekends anymore. That has been something that I’ve seen work really well for this friend of ours and her firm and I’ve seen work well for others too. If you find someone selling, I don’t know, jacuzzis on the weekend, they’re really good and you want to tell them that they could spend more family time on the weekend and hopefully make the same money, that’s a great way. So piggybacking off of what Rob said, anyone who’s sold high end services, med spas, luxury brands, car dealerships, they always make for really good salespeople. And one of the things that I look out for is that they have a really good approach for outreach.

So they’re not afraid to call people, follow up, text them. They’re not afraid to do the volume required to get sales done.

Christopher T. Anderson:

I think that’s a key one. And so I mean for me also, like I’m looking for someone who’s an extrovert because for our listeners, I hope everybody knows, but just in case the difference between extrovert and introvert is not enjoying talking with people. That can be part of it, but it’s people who gain energy from speaking with other people as opposed to introverts who are drained. They may like it, they may be good at it, but they’re drained by speaking with people. So that’s definitely a criterion I’m looking for because what Erik was saying is like, they need to be able to stick it out, get it five, six, seven calls, done eight calls done in a day and they can’t be dragging the last couple of few calls.

Erik Alicea:

But Christopher, you’re an interpreter and I think you’re pretty good at sales.

Christopher T. Anderson:

So yes, I am an introvert and yes, not toot my own horn, right? But yes, I am pretty good at sales. Can I do it effectively and be good at it five days a week, eight hours a day? I have, but man, because like many of the folks listening, when I started my firm, when I started a lot of my different businesses, every time I’ve started a business, I’ve been the chief salesperson for the first year, two years and so I do it. And so I definitely had mechanisms and for our listeners, you could help your sales team with these kinds of mechanisms if they do seem to be getting drained. So for instance, I set myself on absolute limit, four calls. That was my absolute limit and I used the other part of the day to do things that weren’t draining. So email follow-ups, building sequences, recruiting people, but doing things behind the keyboard or on the computer, making sure to be doing follow-ups, checking in with new clients, but things that didn’t involve that one-on-one interaction to kind of balance out that time.

And we can do that with the non-attorney sales people you have too, but if you get a good extrovert, I mean, you guys know who I’m talking about, but like we’ve run into people who do 15, 20 calls a day. I can’t even fathom it, but we know they exist. We’ve met them, we’ve tested the water and then seen that there’s truth to it. One of the things you were also saying, Erik, you mentioned you and Rob both were talking services and maybe everybody can react to this service to people who sell high end services, luxury services and/or products. I tend to lean real heavy into products. The reason for that is that people who’ve sold products have gotten used to a mechanism where they’ve got this coffee cup to sell. And so their sales motion, while they are being doing discovery, while they are asking questions while they are learning what the outcome the person is looking for, they know what they’ve got as a coffee cup.

And so they’re going to try to help the prospect see how the coffee cup is going to make their lives better and not try to sell them a beer can because we don’t have any beer cans. People who sell services are used to being in organizations where they can go back to the developers and the service team and go like, “I need you to build me a beer can and let’s change the service.” So they feel like the service is more flexible and in a well-run law firm, we run the best when we are able to repeat the kinds of services we’re selling.

Elliot Alicea:

I would comment that, and it’s unfortunate he can’t be here today, that I’ve heard people say that Dyson is the best salesperson and these guys know Dyson. And I think to your point, when I asked why is he such a good salesperson, what they told me was it felt like he really understood our situation and was able to map it back to something that they did. And to your point, if you have the skills of active listening but you’re selling a coffee cup, you need to be able to map it back to that. And they’re probably very good at that because they’re good at the listening part, which I think law firm sales is around. And so I agree, I’ve noticed that a lot of the non-attorney salespeople I work with that come from sales, they sold products typically, non-customizable products specifically. So yeah, I do agree and I think it’s the ability that they can think on the fly and active listen and map it back to a solution set that they have.

Christopher T. Anderson:

All right. So let’s turn to the question and again, then we’re going to get to the maximizing, but I think we just need to address the elephant in the room because a lot of our listeners are still right here, which is, yeah, I don’t see it. The only people that can sell legal services are attorneys because they’re the only ones that really understand the whole process and can advise the client on what they need to do so that they can then sell the services that they need to do. So I’ll throw this at Rob first, because Rob, I think you’ve faced this with law firms that you’ve worked with. Can you just speak to that notion that really a non-attorney salesperson where it might be possible is not the most effective way to go?

Rob Letiner:

Yeah. Keep in mind we’re not in the business of selling free legal services. So let’s start there. This is an intake and sales process and also let’s remove the stigma. Law firm sell services just like any other service business. We happen to sell legal services. It is a service. We could be financial planners, we could be a CPA firm, et cetera. So let’s remove that. Next is we alluded to before, the typical attorney sting set sales. They’ve never been trained in sales. They certainly didn’t learn sales in law school and most of them don’t even want to engage in sales. Remember, about 70% or more of attorneys are classified as introverts to begin with in general. That’s not exactly the person you want on the frontline. However, a professional non-attorney salesperson who is not a practicing attorney, they are skilled in owning conversations, managing and controlling expectations, controlling the time and the agenda during the appointment.

They guide conversations to a close and they will make the engagement agreement and payment seem like an afterthought. Those are very specific difficult skills that trust me most attorneys don’t have. So we can certainly remove that stigma.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Erik, Elliot, what else have you seen as far as from that objection that it’s not really an effective way to bring clients into the business?

Erik Alicea:

Elliot and myself were talking with an attorney the other day who said they just can’t picture a non-lawyer giving the same legal advice and strategy that they could. And I think that was the problem is they assume that the conversation before a client becomes a paid client is legal advice and strategy and not a sales conversation. And so they treat sales conversations in the legal industry as legal strategy sessions or full consultations and they’re just not used to the idea that somebody can hire a law firm without getting any legal strategy or advice and it just being a discovery call. And so that’s usually the unlock for them. Once they see that happen once where someone delivered no legal strategy, no legal advice and still converts a client, that’s usually I think like the big unlock or aha moment for them.

Christopher T. Anderson:

I think that’s really key. And it’s so funny that we get hung up there because like everybody, all our listeners, let’s think about other services you buy, dentist. Do you call up the dentist and start the conversation with, “I’ve got this toothache, what would you do about it? ” No, nobody does that. You look up reviews and then you call up the dentist and you talk about things like when do you have an appointment and how does the billing work? Then do you take my insurance? I’m trying to think of things like I was going to say lawn mowing, but the things that are a litle bit more personal, more important. Rob, you said financial services, right? I don’t think you’d call a financial planner and go like, “Here’s the thing I’ve got half a million dollars and I want it to perform better. What would you do?

“That’s not the initial call that you have. You might say, “What kind of clients have you served before? What kind of outcomes have you gotten for them? Have you beaten the market?” You’ll ask those kinds of questions, which again, you don’t need the financial planner to answer. And so why we get this notion of Erik, you’re absolutely right. That is what the thinking is by attorneys and they project us. And one of the things I like to remind people is that most of our clients, whatever kind of law you’re practicing, almost all of our clients are unsophisticated buyers of legal services. So all they know about how to do that is what we teach them. And to your point, Erik, the overwhelming predilection of attorneys who do it is to do exactly what you said. Start talking about what they’re going to do, start solving the problem, what I call showing off.

Elliot, do you run into any of that?

Elliot Alicea:

Definitely. I think it’s exactly that. In fact, I’ve actually had attorneys say that I show them how smart I am and then impress them and then hopefully they … And to be fair, it can work for a founding attorney, but it’s definitely … I think with associate attorneys, it gets a little more dangerous. They don’t have the want for the client as much.

Erik Alicea:

Elliot, we had that happen to us where Elliot was fixing on calls and his sales closing rate for our company plummeted.

Elliot Alicea:

I started showing off and I had Christopher tell me what I was doing wrong. I would say the other big objection I hear all the time is my attorneys won’t accept salespeople.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. Let’s lean into that one because I think that’s like … I’m trying to get the objections out here, so let’s lead into that one. My attorneys won’t accept salespeople.What’s the prediction? If we had a non-attorney salesperson that the attorneys would not let the cases in?

Elliot Alicea:

Well, how could they possibly know what kind of case we should accept and if it’s something we can handle, that seems to be a very big sticking point, especially for your slightly larger firms who have done things a certain way for a very long time. That’s probably number two objection.

Christopher T. Anderson:

How do we overcome that? How have you seen law firms successfully overcome that and get the acceptance of the non-attorney salespeople into the business?

Elliot Alicea:

There’s like a happy medium where if once they start trusting the process, it becomes a whole lot easier. But as a stepwise way into it, I’ve seen a firm that we know in Texas who did this actually with great success. The non-attorney salesperson handled the entire call, essentially teed up the sale and the attorney stepped in at the end to make sure everything was good, just to kind of put some training wheels on. And eventually

They started to trust the process and understand that the non-attorney salesperson knew what to look for and what not to look for. And then I think another happy stepwise medium is like, do the full sales call but sell a consultation if you’re worried that you don’t know if this is a good fit or a coaching session or something like that. I think those are two training wheels versions to get some trust in there that, okay, this person can learn what is good and what is a red flag for a client. Those are two happy mediums.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. Those are great suggestions. It’s really kind of funny. I was at a law firm working with the team and they had just hired their second non-attorney salesperson. The first one didn’t work out. This person really just good on the phones, great with clients. What I loved about it was that this non-attorney salesperson, they were doing exactly what the training was, what you were just talking about. They’re supposed to sell a consult so that the attorneys could then accept the case. She couldn’t reach an attorney or whatever, so she just closed. And in her second week, she closed three and she’s like, “I couldn’t find anybody, so I just sold them.” And they’re like, “Oh, so you sold a consult later?” She’s like, “No, $10,000 retainer each.” It was absolutely beautiful. And the attorneys still have the, because I can hear the alarm bells going off.

The attorneys still had the final word in their initial strategy meeting with the new client to accept the case formally into the firm or turn it away. They still have that prerogative as they should, but the retainer was already collected, sitting in trust and ready for that acceptance. That was just a huge, huge step forward that she took without permission, but she did a great job. And this person sold real estate before, never sold legal services ever. All right. I want to shift the conversation. We spent a lot of time on talking about accepting it and that it can be done and what the non-attorney salesperson is. But let’s turn the conversation now, Erik, how can non-attorney salesperson actually do a better job than the attorneys ever really will for this role for bringing in new prospects?

Erik Alicea:

I think the first thing is what Elliot mentioned. Usually the attorneys will close really well when it’s the founding attorney. They don’t have a lot of leads.

But when they start to scale their marketing and they start to put that burden of sales calls on other attorneys, usually they’ll see a huge drop in close rate. What will actually specifically happen, what we see is they’ll only close referrals and all of their marketing channels won’t seem to work. And actually that’s usually when people come to work with us, that’s what we see in the beginning is their marketing wasn’t working before and we actually find not even to our credit that just their sales process wasn’t working before. And as soon as they bring in a non-attorney salesperson, they start converting cold leads. So I think the biggest value that a non-attorney salesperson brings is when you scale your marketing sources, they have an ability to close cold sources like Google ads, local service ads, social ads much better than attorneys do and that process scales.

Also, outside of just making it work without the founding attorney, when it’s someone’s full-time job to do follow-ups, get people back on the calendar to actually care about the prospects, get Google reviews and their whole day is geared towards generating value for the firm, not doing legal work and consults, they can generate a lot more value and just become an expert at it, whereas an attorney can’t because that’s just a small part of their day.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. I think those are great ways they could be better. Elliot or Rob, who wants to take the next crack? How can they actually do better than the attorney sales folks or I should say attorneys who are also doing sales?

Rob Letiner:

I would add a couple of points. If you flip this model on its head, it’s not scalable otherwise. How are you supposed to grow your law firm if you only have attorneys handling sales? That’s extremely difficult if not impossible for all the reasons we had mentioned. Also, the numbers don’t lie. The non-attorney salespeople in general will close at much higher rates and their conversion rates will be higher and that’s hard to argue with. In terms of attorneys having issues with being able to classify the cases correctly, most firms sell a couple of legal services and there are some main buckets. There are exceptions and when there are exceptions, we can bring in additional resources like an attorney joining the call for a couple of minutes if it doesn’t fit in one of the boxes. Attorneys don’t really make that decision. They’re supposed to focus on producing the legal work.

They’re not really involved with the business and the marketing ends of the law firm in general. So you put all those things together, a sales professional focuses on sales and an attorney focuses on legal work in general

Christopher T. Anderson:

And not for nothing. I train the attorneys. The sales not over. You’re still like in that initial strategy meeting, you’re still selling. When you’re representing the client, better damn well still be selling because selling is really the education of the client that they can reach their goals with you in a profitable way and that job never ends. But you’re right, as far as bringing them in, it doesn’t scale for the attorneys to be doing it. The other thing that most people don’t think about that the non-attorney salespeople can do way better than any attorney in the firm is tell the prospect, these are the attorneys I’d want to work with if I were looking for representation in whatever the thing is. And if you do it, if the attorneys do it, it sounds like blowing their own horn, but there’s magic with that one scintilla of separation that the non-attorney salesperson can say it and be credible and be believable and I hope they wouldn’t say it if they didn’t believe it.

But you can say that in a way that conveys the truth of it to the prospect in a way the attorneys never, ever could.

All right. The title of the show is maximizing value of the non-attorney salesperson. So let’s talk about maximizing. I’ll start, Elliot, let’s start with you. Erik and Rob and me, we are going to think of a way to do better than you, Elliot, as to answer this question. What’s one way when you have a non-attorney salesperson that you would advise them to improve the job that they do, because we’re talking about maximizing their values. So what’s a way they can maximize their value? Only to only do one so you don’t steal other people’s.

Elliot Alicea:

I had two. I was going to really set you guys up.

Christopher T. Anderson:

We’ll come back around to you.

Elliot Alicea:

All right, that’s fair. I would say the number one thing that I would have, if I had a non-attorney salesperson in my firm, the first thing that they would be doing is reactivating old leads and always having a pretty much offensive time block. They’re calling old leads, they’re calling people who have missed appointments, people who they haven’t got ahold of because if you think about what those leads potentially cost the firm depending on the practice area and depending on the traffic source, call it a hundred bucks. If you just let the lead die, you’re out money and you’re also out opportunity costs. And I would say that that is one of the biggest levers I’ve seen people execute on and really drum up a consistent amount of revenue.

Christopher T. Anderson:

I think that’s a great one. That is a great way to maximize value because that’s like found leads, right? You’re just going back and mining stuff you’ve already paid for. That’s amazing.

Erik Alicea:

Elliot, what is the actual value of an outreach or of an appointment on the calendar if you use like round numbers, just to give a little bit more context there?

Elliot Alicea:

When we map activity revenue, which if you’re curious, go put in ChatGPT, explain your funnel and your case value, but we’ll call it a $10,000 case value. There’s a lot of different practice areas here because I’ve run that math before. An appointment on the calendar is equal to $1,400 in revenue for the firm if we use basic sales funnel metrics and it’s the same as a blackjack table. Every hand they deal is a certain amount of money that they bring in, so they deal as many hands as possible. And so when we do a challenge with some of the people in our group, I challenge all the salespeople to go make dials until they set an appointment and it usually takes about two minutes to set an appointment. And if you think about the value that that brings to the firm owner and the firm itself, it’s really, really dramatic.

So yeah, it may seem tedious, but it is worth a lot to the firm.

Erik Alicea:

Yeah. When you realize every dial can potentially make a firm a few hundred dollars, you want your people dialing all day long or sitting in consults all day long. But my suggestion is different than Elliot’s for maximizing value and I think if the owner intentionally focuses and pays attention to their sales process as much as they do other parts of their business, I think it will add a lot of value and their sales team will do so much better because a lot of times as business owners, myself included, we always default to looking at our marketing, our website, our videos. And when you think about how much time the prospect actually spends in the specific buckets, sales is where they spend most of their time. So it’s different for every site and practice area, but people spend under 10 seconds on your website and people will spend hours analyzing their website and that hundreds of thousands of dollars spending money on rebuilding their website.

When they actually watch your videos, if you look at like a user’s total watch time, it’s like 30 seconds to a minute. Think about intake. It’s like four to five minutes, maybe 10 if you’ve got a really long process, but sales can be an hour plus conversation. So if you want to focus on the part of the customer journey where people spend most of the time, it’s usually the sales proces. And so that’s probably the highest leverage bucket to improve.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Love it. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a really great perspective. Now, when you need all that marketing and other stuff to get them there, get them on that call, but that is where they spend most of their time. And it’s so funny how much abdication of that process there is by law firm owners. Rob, what’s your suggestion, a recommendation here?

Rob Letiner:

I have a bunch of notes on one recommendation, but I’m actually going to switch. So my recommendation to maximize the value is to step outside of your role and put yourself in the shoes of the potential new client, the PNC. Go through the process as a PNC from start to finish, from doing research, from Getting on Google, maybe you’re filling out a contact us form, maybe you’re calling the firm, you’re trying to set an appointment. Take note of the tone and the value and the content in communications, in the emails. How does it feel when you get the fee agreement? Is the process easy for you? Could you make an appointment quickly? Did you have to wait a couple of days and not only go through the process, but be a little difficult. Don’t answer a phone call. Don’t reply to an email. See if you get a text, see if there’s follow up.

When you fill out a contact us form, do you get a confirmation that your email was received? Does that email or confirmation have any value or is it just the same BS, thank you, we received your inquiry, we’ll contact you on the next business day. Because if it’s that, you probably already lost the PNC. So in general, put yourself in the shoes of the PNC, go through the entire process and see how it feels to be in that position and then you can make some improvements to maximize value.

Christopher T. Anderson:

I think that is a great suggestion to basically secret shop your own firm, go through the process, feel it. I promise you listeners, you will be surprised. Always surprised. Hopefully pleasantly, but probably not. All right. My turn. Then Elliot, you get another go because I promised. Maximizing the value of non-attorney salesperson is for me embodying and embedding the notion that what they’re doing is a service, that the actual sale, the conversation with the prospective new client is in and of itself a service unto itself and delivering that with excellence. So what do I mean by that? I mean that if you’re not attorney sales folks, if you train them, if you hire them with the notion that every single person they talk to should leave that conversation better off than when they came to it, regardless of whether they end up doing business with the firm, that will maximize the value of the non-attorney salesperson.

Because by through doing that, remember good non-attorney sales folks are amazing world-class rock stars are closing close to half. Really, really good ones are closing a third. You can make money all day long with those that are closing one out of four. That means that there’s three people that didn’t buy that you’re turning into ambassadors for the firm talking about how amazing it was to interact with the firm even though they didn’t decide today to buy. We’d often talk about the flywheel effective things. That helps to kick that flywheel and keep it going because that is advertising and marketing that’s happening for zero dollars and it’s going on and on and on and on and on. But really, we’re talking about maximizing value, that’s a place and a way that we can maximize that value. All right, Elliot, I’m giving you the last word, man.What was your last one?

Elliot Alicea:

Well, I have another one, but what you said there on the three ambassadors is send them off with a Google review form and that really maximizes. So mine, to maximize, I would say their performance, I think this is actually one of the most important things because I spend so much time with them is if you just put yourself in their shoes for a second, they’re having, in some practice areas, pretty heavy conversations, pretty draining if they’re doing a lot of calls. And one of the complaints I’ve heard from them is, I only ever see this person right now and I don’t know because they get emotionally invested, the good ones because they view it as a service and they don’t know what the outcome is. And so I would encourage people to maximize their value to install a system of conviction and positivity so that they see the client wins, they see the lives they’re changing, they see the service that they’re providing and then they will have more conviction and then it will be easy for them to say, “We have the best attorneys or we’re the best law firm.” And I think that a lot of them live on this sales island where they in some firms actually get treated a little bit lesser than the legal staff because they’re not lawyers and things like that.

But I think bringing them up and showing them the good work that the firm is doing of the thing that they’re selling can really get them going and moving in the right direction. I would say some of the strongest teams I’ve seen really understand the mission of the firm and the impact that they have.

Christopher T. Anderson:

I think that is a good final word because we unfortunately have come on our time. I want to thank Rob. Rob Leiter, you can learn if you want to contact Rob or want to learn more about him. You can check them out at sunnysidelaw.com. Elliot and Erik, thank you both for being here if you want to get in touch with them, have any further questions, empirical360.com. And of course, this is Christopher Anderson. You can always find me right here on Legal Talk Network and on The Unbillable Hour. We will be back with another great show coming up next month. And don’t forget the Unbillable Hour itself is also right here on Legal Talk Network or on your podcast channel. We’ll talk soon.

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