Beyond Politics: Standing for the Rule of Law, with Bill Bay

Episode Notes

Transcript

Zack Glaser:

Hi, I’m Zack and this is episode 5 86 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network.

Stephanie Everett:

And I’m Stephanie. Today I’m talking with Bill Bay about the rule of law and the importance of keeping our judiciary independent.

Zack Glaser:

So Stephanie, I’ve, I don’t want to say I’ve been looking forward to this episode, honestly, I’m not, I haven’t been looking forward to the idea that we need to have this episode, but I’ve been looking forward to having Bill Bay on and I think this is an important conversation for our profession, for what we do. I think the importance of the rule law, the importance of the independence of the judiciary goes across any sort of political barrier. There is, I mean, it is outside of politics. It’s the fundamental aspect of what we do.

Stephanie Everett:

Well, a long time ago, you and I talked about this and we framed it as it is political, but it isn’t partisan, and I think that

Zack Glaser:

That’s, yeah, thank you. Yeah,

Stephanie Everett:

No, well, somebody else gave me that and it really stuck with me because I was

Zack Glaser:

Like, it

Stephanie Everett:

Inherently political,

This doesn’t matter what side you’re on, what party you are, whether you’re conservative or who you vote for, but I think that our entire profession, we need to be aware of what’s happening right now and our role in the process, in the political process that is one of the branches of government and that is, I think, fundamental to our democracy. So I think it is a discussion for everyone to have and to contemplate what that means. And what I really wanted to do with this episode is not just talk about what’s happening, but really be really specific about what do we do as individuals, as attorneys, and as members of theBar and as a larger profession to make sure that our role matters.

Zack Glaser:

I think that’s a good point because a lot of this is, you can look at this selfishly, you can look at this cynically and say, this is making sure that which we collectively have devoted our lives to matters, does what it’s supposed to do. And frankly, we obviously think it matters. We obviously think it’s important or we wouldn’t do what we do as attorneys. All of you out there in podcast land, you wouldn’t wake up in the morning and go help facilitate the rule of law, help facilitate things being known, law being created, law being defined, law being, having precedent, having clarity for the actions of people out there in this country.

Stephanie Everett:

Well, I hope people will listen to this episode and more importantly share it and let’s have a discussion. Let’s agree. I mean, one great thing about lawyers, I think we are trained to argue and debate, and so maybe you’re going to listen to this and not agree all the way or have a different spin or different take, whatever. I think that kind of productive discourse Is Encouraged and honestly, I kind of miss it. I used to love debating with my law partner and I did not agree on party politics, but we used to have fascinating debates about it and sometimes it would get us both thinking about issues differently or seeing it from the other side. I mean, that is what we are supposed to be able to do as lawyers, so I’m going to say let’s venture onto this one, but let’s use it as a springboard for discussion and for action.

Zack Glaser:

Reasonable minds can disagree on things and at lawyers, we’ve always had one main rule when it comes to commentary and connecting with people and all that, and it’s don’t be an asshole. That’s it. We can talk, we can discuss, we can, but just be civil to each other

Stephanie Everett:

And seek repair. Sometimes maybe sometimes you might what I call step in it, right? Sometimes in the moment, oh, I’ve

Zack Glaser:

Stepped in it

Stephanie Everett:

Just anytime we engage in hard conversations, maybe I say something and I don’t know, and then afterwards I’m like, oh, that didn’t feel right. Well then seek repair. Like, Hey Zack, I might’ve just said something without context or I didn’t know how can we navigate this better together? I think we need a little bit more of that these days.

Zack Glaser:

I think you’re absolutely right and I think that’s nice. Well, on that note, let’s get into your conversation with Bill. Hey y’all. Zack, the legal tech advisor here at Lawyerist, and today I’ve got Bruce Policky with me from Tabs3, one of the comprehensive law practice management software products out there brought to you by ProfitSolv, who also has TimeSolv and various other products out there. Bruce, thanks for being with me.

Bruce Policky  :

It’s great to be back, Zack, the year flying by.

Zack Glaser:

We’re kind of coming up on the end of it. We

Bruce Policky  :

Are.

Zack Glaser:

Talk to me about some of that. I think this podcast comes out in late October. People can obviously hear this anytime they listen to it, but late October, great time. We’re coming into the Q4. Great time to start thinking about the year end planning. What do people need to be thinking about?

Bruce Policky  :

It’s really a good time to step back and take a comprehensive review of your firm’s operations, and if you do that now you really set yourself up for a stronger and more profitable 2026. It’s something you need to maybe step back, take a look, do a financial review, a little bit of an analysis of how the years went, look for areas that you can improve upon. Obviously because of our background, I’d like you to consider some things which are billings and collections to clean up before the end of the year, and then also think about the future, maybe technology upgrades, et cetera.

Zack Glaser:

I like that the technology upgrades and the billing and collections kind of funnel into financial review and analysis for me because those are two things that really can be quick levers to pull to bump your finances up, right,

Bruce Policky  :

Exactly. With billing and collections, really Q4 is the time you need to start thinking about an early push because if you want to collect that by December, that process probably has to begin now and really take a look at your age ar start following up on those outstanding balances and try to get things settled before the year end. But the other part of that is work in process time that has not been billed yet. Take a look at that, get any of that, that’s unbuild out promptly again, so you can get through that whole process of billing it and getting the collections in before year end so you don’t have to worry about writing things off or carrying things over into the next year.

Zack Glaser:

Yeah. Okay. So that goes into technology upgrades for me a little bit, and I’ll tell you how if somebody’s sitting there saying, how in the heck am I going to track that? How do I know what’s out there waiting to be billed? Or man, that seems like it’s really difficult to do, then maybe we could think about a technology upgrade. And obviously we’re talking about Tabs3 today. Talk to me a little bit about some of the reporting that Tabs3 can do related to this.

Bruce Policky  :

Well, Tabs3 along with the billing side also has financial systems in it, which is our general ledger, accounts payable and trust accounting. We’re going to just briefly touch on those with the general ledger. That’s where you get to take a look at your actual profit loss, your balance sheet, cashflow statements. This is where you really

Zack Glaser:

Yeah, because my company’s ledger. Right, exactly. Not just like, oh, what I’m working on in my practice, that’s my company’s ledger.

Bruce Policky  :

Yes. If you’re using Tapestry software, all of that’s tightly integrated and you can get those types of snapshots throughout the year. If you’re not, you might need to get with your accountant and take a look at that and then consider again for the next year whether that’s something you want to bring in house and utilize so that you have that available anytime that you need it on demand to track that information.

Zack Glaser:

And will, to kind of go back to one of the first things I said in this conversation is that Tabs3 is one of the comprehensive products out there, and one of the things I mean by comprehensive is that it has the accounting, like you’re saying, the general ledger, all of that built into the software. So getting into what we’re saying, getting prepared for the end of the year, you can run reports against that related to your ROI related to where you’ve been billing and all of that can connect to your cases and your company.

Bruce Policky  :

Yeah, we talked about the reports that are available. I think one of the more powerful ones at this time of year is the ability to then compare current periods to prior periods. So this month compared to last year in this month or this year compared to last year or even going back more than that, if you need to just identify trends or areas that, again, you definitely could either invest in, improve upon and then make sure that you may be correct. We’ll say if there’s areas like expenses that are being written off that shouldn’t be or things like that, but

Zack Glaser:

Okay. Well, so again, go into that last one. Technology upgrade. If people want to learn, if they’ve peaked their interest, Bruce and they want to learn more about how can I do this better going forward, or how can I already use the software that I have, people that are already using tab three, where should they go to connect with you?

Bruce Policky  :

If you’d like to schedule a demo, you can go to tab three.com/demo, but really if you go to tab three.com, it’s right there on the opening screen. You can choose the schedule a demo button. It’ll bring up calendar, let you pick a time that works for you, and we’ll be glad to walk you through and show you all the features that are available and how that can be implemented and help you provide a better foundation for a more successful 2026.

Zack Glaser:

I like it. So if you can’t dig into some of the things you were talking about for the strategic year end planning, maybe your strategic year end planning is going and getting the software that can help you do that.

Bruce Policky  :

Exactly.

Zack Glaser:

Wonderful. Well Bruce, thanks again for being with me. And again, if people want to connect with y’all at Tabs3, they can go to Tabs3.com/demo.

Bill Bay:

Hello everybody, my name’s Bill Bay from St. Louis, Missouri. I’m the immediate past president of the American Bar Association and looking forward to talking with you today. Stephanie,

Stephanie Everett:

Thank you so much for being on the show. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. I mean, I say looking forward, although there’s a part of me that wishes we didn’t even have to have it or we could have a different conversation maybe than the one we’re going to approach because I feel like our profession really is at a crossroads and is really being challenged right now. And you just finished up your tenure as the president of the American Bar Association, and this really became the defining theme, I think for you and your presidency, the idea of defending justice in the rule of law.

Bill Bay:

Yeah, it wasn’t the year I anticipated, lemme tell you. I mean, I tell people all the time, I mean, I was kind of hoping to win the mis congeniality award, be the Sandra Bullock, and it just went awry. But it’s the year we have and the year we have to deal with and so many people, sometimes they’ll say, gee, I’m glad you’re speaking up, but it’s stuff I learned basically in eighth to ninth grade. I just never thought it would come to pass like this. It’s stuff I learned in civics, so it’s interesting times.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, for sure. Maybe just a frame our discussion, when you talk about the rule of law and that phrase has become this defining theme for the A BA right now, I mean, what does that mean to you?

Bill Bay:

I think it’s interesting enough, we were looking, as we decided what we wanted to say and where we wanted to stand, we looked at what have we said on rule of law, what have we done? So our fascinating enough, we have a short video we post up on our site that’s like 59 seconds. So what does the rule of law mean? Some basic concepts, I mean the same laws apply to everybody. Everybody is treated equally under the law. Government power is bound by law. Everybody has rights and responsibilities. Laws are shared openly and fairly. The judiciary’s independent judges are fair and impartial, and I think it matters because it’s insurers a fair and just society. And the rule of law really guarantees that laws are certain predictable, created openly, they apply to everybody. People have the right to engage with lawmakers and have access to the courts to settle disputes.

Human rights are guaranteed for everybody. I mean, it’s things I said to begin with that we learned in eighth and ninth grade. It’s the fundamentals of our profession though. And that’s really, and I think this particular time in our history is really, really important for the reasons you said is because we go back and examine why we are a profession, why we went to law school, what are the bedrock principles? There’s lots of things we can disagree on, we can disagree on. I’m off of the Cardinals. They didn’t do well this year. It’s the Dodgers in Toronto. Okay. It’s disappointing to me personally, but that’s not important. Those things aren’t important that we disagree about, and I think this is really causing the profession and every lawyer, what do we stand for? What are the principles that are the key ones that we want our profession, the reason why we’re proud to be a part of a profession?

Stephanie Everett:

I think it’s sometimes easy. Maybe we’re in our own firm, in our own office and we feel disconnected maybe from what’s happening at the national stage, what the ABA is doing with the lawsuit, which we can get into in a second. And I’m just curious, how do you address those people and make it real for them? Because I feel like this is a defining moment for every single lawyer and we need to be paying attention.

Bill Bay:

I think when you remember what the principles are, I mean, it’s the rule of law that provides the guarantees of American freedom for the least powerful of us, and it’s the promise of equal justice for the most endangered people, the protection of opportunity for the most vulnerable and the security that safeguards our own neighborhoods and our communities. The reality is that since the filing of a Republic, lawyer’s always been called to play key roles, and we are again today when there are threats to the rule of law. And I think the first thing we get a lot of times is, Hey, this doesn’t affect me, or these are political issues. I mean, they’re not political issues, and if they were, I’d be the wrong guy to be on your podcast. Believe me, I haven’t been a member of either of the parties. I think my last direct contribution was to Dick Deb Har, when most people haven’t heard of, are he still alive and doing well, but 40, 40, 45 years ago or more. These are really rule of law issues that have guided our profession since the beginning. And the challenges are, it’s beyond the attacks and the rule of law. It’s going after judges when we don’t like their decision.

I mean, there’s lots of judges. I don’t mean I’ve lost cases, I didn’t like the decision, but that doesn’t mean we’re impeach a judge just because you don’t like a decision, you appeal or attacks on law firms for who they represent attacks on diversity threats and retribution against those who dare to disagree with the government. I mean, we see people, public servants justice department fired or penalized for doing their jobs, the erosion of civic norms, people being dehumanized, civil and human rights being violated. We’ve seen lots of pattern kind of resistance to court orders and the coarseness of language deployed is really sos fear and diminished in others. I mean, these are all challenges and every one of them was and is troubling, but together they’re really shameful. These are threats to our country. This is not who we have ever been as a country. They’re not who we are today, and they’re not who we ever aspired to be as Americans. I know I sometimes tell my kids, don’t look at the news board in five minutes and I find myself doing it 12 hours a day as you do. We just can’t become numb to it.

It’s not a matter of personal politics. It’s the mandate of American principles to be a nation of laws. There cannot be government by threat, fear, or retribution to be a nation of equality under law. There can only be government that treats everybody the way we’d want to be treated. I mean, I sometimes use the phrase, it’s human due process. That’s how we want people to be treated with it. We achieve the dreams of our forefathers without it. We’re a lesser nation. So that’s why I think it’s important. That’s why I think it affects the main street lawyers where I live in St. Louis. Okay, we’re a red state. I get that. But it affects all of us here and that’s why it’s so important.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, I agree. And I even read this morning, I don’t have the news report handy, but someone who was just fired from the Department of Justice has come forward in a recent interview and said that he was asked to go in front of the court and lie. I mean, that’s what he said. He said, I was asked to say something that I knew not to be true, and that’s like a bedrock fundamental principle. How many times have we used the phrase officer of the court that we know when we stand up and make a representation to the court, it matters. Our words have to matter. And he said it was like a gut punch just when this directive came down and ultimately he lost his job for not being willing to do that. And I think it’s easy to sit and say, well, that’s just happening up in DC or that’s happening to people, not to me, but it seems to me that if we allow this to happen, it does impact all of us.

Bill Bay:

If you listen to your neighbors and your friends, the people where you worship, where you go to school with your kids, the parents there, it’s happening to people. They know it’s happening to our neighbors. And yes, I don’t know the facts about every instance. I don’t know all the facts about this one in the news yesterday, but part of our job as lawyers is to be able to say, here’s a pattern and there’s a pattern here, and there’s a pattern that’s contrary to the rule of law with attacks on judges and attacks on lawyers. I understand every administration wants to do lots of things. That’s great. Our position is simply do it the right way. And as a lawyer, I mean I personally agree with this administration or that administration, but doing it the right way is central. And that’s what I think I discovered.

I mean, if you’d have told me five years ago, I’d be on this blog with you, I’d say you’re out of your mind. I mean, I’m the least likely guy, but these events have caused me a regular everyday lawyer in St. Louis to look at what’s happening and to stand for the profession and the principles we hold dear. And it’s not easy. I get it. We can talk some about what’s happened, but that’s why this really matters. And we need lots of people who are not political parties, not political officios out here saying, we are not opposed to things. We stand for something so critical.

Stephanie Everett:

We want to defend the court system, defend the judiciary, defend the very nature of the work that we do because we believe in it. Otherwise, I don’t think any of us would’ve done all the things we’ve done in our career to practice this. I hold our profession in such regard. It’s special. It means something to us, and it means something to me to be able to say that I’m a lawyer. It’s something I’m very proud of. And I think that that’s what I hear you saying to other lawyers is this is a time to say we stand for our profession, for the judiciary and for the rule of law that matters.

Bill Bay:

Yeah, we’ve looked at four, you’ll hear me all the time talk about four key issues and the ground is pretty strong on these grid. Who is it? I mean, I’m asking you to take some position nobody else has taken. I mean, I’m quoting the Chief Justice John Roberts who said this before last year, how this should be. I’m glad to stand with him. And I’m looking at our code of professional responsibility. It’s in every state about who lawyers represent. So there are lots of other issues I know people can disagree about, but we’re trying to stay focused really on the rule of law, defending our courts, defending our profession, and then the elimination of bias in enhanced diversity, all four of those. That’s what you’ll hear us talking over and over and over and again. And yeah, a lot of people have asked me to talk about other things and there’s lots of other important issues, but these four, I believe are kind of bedrock to where we are.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. What do you say to someone who’s listening right now and is like, okay, bill, I’m with you. I agree wholeheartedly. This makes sense, but I’m just a lawyer in X Town and even what am I supposed to do? What do you say to them? What can they do?

Bill Bay:

Well, I think there’s lots you can do. I think several things. Number one, first of all, remember you’re nonpartisan. We are not opposed in the administration. We stand for principles that underline the values we hold dear. I think that’s always important, but I think we’re going to have to take a stand. Not everybody will agree, but if you’re going to say something, always take the high road and be guided really by three principles. Are we saying and doing the right thing? Are we doing it in the right way? And are we doing it at the right time? We don’t have to try to win the social media wars. Don’t need to respond to everything. Don’t need to be first for God’s sakes. I know people went first with the first coach that gets fired. Okay, that’s it. And people are defensive, but that’s not what we’re doing.

We need to be right and so that people respect what lawyers have said and done. We don’t have to have every answer. We have doubts and worries, of course. I mean, there’s nights I stay awake, worried about things, but I can’t do that. And the other thing I think for people, don’t be hyperbolic. Be personal. Be authentic. Be honest. People everywhere in our country have the same concerns you and I do. They may agree with the goal of administration, but not how it’s being done or the course language they use. And then I guess I go back to an old fashioned concept. Remember grace? Okay. Extending grace to people isn’t bad and it should extend beyond our friends. I hear the political parties, both sides talk about grace, but they only extended to people who are affiliated with them. Maybe we ought to go back to what grace is.

We do it with everybody. Then I think the final thing, you engage with people where you live and practice when they bring it up. I think the coarseness is terrible. I’ve seen two of our highest elected officials in writing call people morons or pieces of crap, and they don’t use the word crap. I think our kids and grandkids, they’re picking up on these messages. They think this is the way we do politics and life. We go after our enemies. That’s not the right way, regardless of your political views, it’s not the right way to do things.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, I agree. And I was just talking with my co-host of the show, my business partner, my law partner, when we had a firm together, we voted differently and we had the most fun, interesting conversations. We engaged in discourse we’re lawyers. We like to debate, and we didn’t always agree on economic policies as an example, but having those debates over lunch with him made me a better person, helps me, and sometimes I changed my mind on certain things and he changed his mind and saw my point of view. And it really does feel like we’ve lost that and I miss it.

Bill Bay:

We need to disagree better in an agreeable way. People talk about that, and I understand these are important issues. I’m not asking people to concede anything, but let’s do it. Remember, even the people we disagree with, even people we think are enemies. In my world, in my blind view, I got to treat them with grace. I got to treat them the way that I want to be treated. I’m sorry I, I’m not looking for vengeance and I’ve seen it in court cases. I litigate. You go into court, if you get into a mud wrestling, everybody always looks bad. I just don’t believe in mud wrestling. And that’s why when the A BA has tried to take the high road, talk about the things we stand for, we’re not going after folks. We had to sue the Obama administration over our program. We were critical of President Biden when he did things. And yes, we’re involved in litigation with the current administration. That’s not because we’re opposed to any of it. It’s because we stand for something.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, hearing you talk, I mean, I’ll confess that as much as I do like the civil discourse and miss that I have not said many. I have been holding my tongue and not speaking for fear that somebody will paint me in a light. Oh, Stephanie’s just in with this camp. And so I’m listening to you and I’m actually realizing I have been scared to say anything. And I don’t think that can be the answer either.

Bill Bay:

Yeah, I just think it can’t be. I think you got to be cautious and be thoughtful about what you say, and I think it’s really important. And I think it begins with examining what you stand for, what your principles are. Then you listen to people and you speak with the right and expect some criticism. The a, b, A spoken this year, a number of elected officials have responded by avoiding the substance of the issues. I mean the playbook, everybody knows the playbook denigrate the institution. There’s name calling, and second, they complain about something the A BA said or did in recent years. I mean, a lot of that narrative is false. For example, I mean, we’ve spoken 15 times in the late eight years, about last eight years, about criticism, about judges. Stephanie, if I spoke every time someone leveled unfair criticism and personal attacks on judges, I’d speak multiple times a day.

In the last 12 months, I think it’s now the last 13 months, elected and appointed officials of both parties have claimed a judicial coup. Last fall was a Democrat and the A, BA spoke this year, it’s Republicans, but it doesn’t matter who said it. Republicans, Democrats are independents. It was and is wrong. And we said so, but I just want to be clear on this point. It would not matter if the A, b, A had ever spoken. There’s never a wrong time to stand for what’s right. And I call back again to talk about being personal. I was remembering I’m going to see my kids on Halloween. Parents know this. My wife and I raised three kids. There were many nights when we sat in bed and talked about what had happened that day. Had we said the right thing to our kids, sometimes my wife would say, you should have spoken up.

You were silent then. But whatever we did one day didn’t mean we forfeited the right or the need to speak another day like every parent. We decided that the next day presented a new opportunity to do what was right for our family and for our professional family. Today is that next day we have to stand for what’s right. We can’t have threats against judges, lawyers, law firms, bar associations. We just can’t have disregard for the rule of law and due process because if we do, we’re going to wake up one day with the systems much different than the one we grew up with and that’s why we have to speak. No, we don’t have to go out and yell and scream, but we got to speak in the right way and speak from the heart about what matters here.

Stephanie Everett:

Love it. What gives you hope about the next generation of lawyers that are coming?

Bill Bay:

What’s been so fascinating this year? Something’s really special happening out there. I didn’t know what was going to happen here. I confessed. There were times, especially in February when I was discouraged, but I think I learned something else. The power of hope. There is something special happening everywhere. I have gone and spoke. Lawyers are talking about how proud they are of the A BA. We heard from judges at all levels who are appreciative of what we’re saying and doing. I heard from our a, a staff how proud they are of our association. People know what the a A stands for, and one of the stories I frequently tell is one of our employees works at the A BA went to her dentist of all things and her dental hygienists cleaner her teeth. And of course you can’t talk when you’re there. And she says, I just want to tell you, I know you work at the A BA and I’m really proud of what you guys are saying and doing.

And she said, then she had this startling statement, I’m making monthly payments to the A BA. Now why would somebody who’s not a lawyer dedicate a part of her paycheck that she earns to this organization? And she says, it helps me feel more powerful in this climate. I know the A BA is fighting this important fight for all of us, and I love supporting that. So if she can do that, what more can each of us do? And it also reminds us, I think for the audience here, is that we need to be like that employee. See what we say to our neighbors friends and the people we meet really matters. We have to keep our eyes and ears open to what is happening. It’s not all in the news headlines, believe me, I read lots of ’em. The significant things in life or in the story is that never make the news like this story.

And that’s what gives me great hope for the future. I mean, I think we’re a different association than we were a year ago. We’re stronger, clear and more grounded. We’ve rededicated ourselves to the work we exist to do. We know our mission, our mandate. There are so many opportunities ahead, Stephanie, that change and challenge and adversity can’t defeat us. We got to face the future as a profession with optimism and a sense of purpose. I mean, I think the A exists to lead the profession in times like this. I don’t know how the story’s going to end, but I know we’re going to be true to our purpose because the fight to preserve the rule of law, not just for the A BA, but for bar associations of lawyers is too important to stay silent. And people aren’t looking for crisis management. I know that’s what we do and that’s what I learned a few years ago. But it’s crisis leadership. I just think this can be our finest hour. I really do our finest hour to explain to people why our courts exist, why our profession exists, what lawyers do. That’s an important message in every small town, in every large city, rural areas, everywhere. I think.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, I agree. I was proud to pay my dues to the A BA this year. I’m a proud member and

Bill Bay:

God love you. God love you for

Stephanie Everett:

That. And just recently, my 14-year-old kind of asked me, mom, how do lawyers defend someone who’s been accused of a crime? The guilty person? I mean, I think every lawyer has heard that at some point in their life. That’s a common question that people get. Like, how can you do that? And I appreciate your words because here was a chance for me to talk to my kid about what it means, what the justice system, how it works, why it’s important, why everyone deserves, deserves representation. I think that’s an easy mantra for us to be saying right now.

Bill Bay:

Yeah, it’s a John Adams moment. Okay.

Yeah. And what’s more is it’s codified. It’s listed in the oath of code of professional responsibility. We took every state, red, blue, purple, whatever. Every state has it. It’s 1.2 that you don’t hold it against lawyers representing unpopular clients and causes. Otherwise, we’re going to have a system that just favors the powerful and the politically connected. And that’s such an important point because each of us in life is going to want representation at a point in crisis. For some, it’s going to be a criminal matter, could be a divorce, could be an state, could be a contract to dispute, I don’t know. But lawyers come out of the stands to help people, to help people, and we can’t forget that. And when we’re going to punish for people, the lawyers who they represent, it’s a fundamental wrong to our system. I’m sorry. It’s just it is. And somebody said they disagreed. I said, well, it’s in the oath you took for God’s sakes. Come on. So that’s why it’s so important what you did, just explaining it to your 14-year-old. That is maybe more important than anything I say in some broader message. That’s really critical.

Stephanie Everett:

If you could leave lawyers with one call to action today to strengthen the rule of law from where they sit, what would you tell them?

Bill Bay:

Well, I mean, besides join the A BA. Yeah,

Stephanie Everett:

That’s fair. You can tell ’em that.

Bill Bay:

I think it’s time for each of us to decide what’s important. Lawyers chose a profession. We’re not opposed to things we stand for, things, our courts, our profession, the rule of law. I’m not asking anybody to be political. We can disagree about whatever. If you ask my kids, they’d say, dad’s conservative. But I’m asking lawyers to stand up for the profession and oath they took. Do it the right way with the right words at the right time. Do it with grace and don’t be afraid to speak. This is the time, our time to remind the people where we worship that, where we go to a school event, our neighbors, why our profession matters, why we can’t impeach judges for decision. We don’t like come after a law firm through they represent. I mean, they’re a risk. I mean, get, there are risks, but sometimes history draws a line in the sand. What we do next, what we do tomorrow is more important than anything we’ve done before. I believe this is that moment that we have to stand for the rule of law. Our judges and lawyers stand with the A, b, A because it’s the right thing to do and because there’s never a wrong time to do what’s right.

Stephanie Everett:

Love it. Thank you so much for being with me today. It has been an honor and a pleasure to have this conversation with you. It is so important to me.

Bill Bay:

Well, thank you very much. And I love your story about your discussion with your 14-year-old. That’s the most important thing I take out of this because that’s so critical here. Okay. That’s so critical. So thank you very much, Stephanie, for having me on. Appreciate it.

Stephanie Everett:

And we’ll make sure for anyone who’s interested in learning more about the A, b, A and their initiative on the rule of law, they have some great resources available on their website. So we’ll make sure to put links to those in the show notes for everybody too.

Bill Bay:

Thank you, ma’am. Appreciate it.

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