Parental Alienation in Divorce: What Attorneys (and Parents) Need to Know with Attorney Adam Little

Episode Notes

Transcript

Adam Little [00:00:00 – 00:00:14]

You have to be very careful because you get into the psychological well being of your children. And if you make an allegation of parental alienation and you’re wrong, you’re potentially risking damaging that relationship they do have with that parent.

David Crum [00:00:14 – 00:00:41]

Welcome, everybody, to Confessions of a Divorce Assassin Podcast. I am attorney David crum. I’m the CEO of U.S. legal Groups. This is a national divorce and family law firm. We have offices in Kansas, New Mexico, Nebraska and Colorado. And We’ve got about 40 attorneys on our team. So the purpose, the purpose of this podcast is to really entertain you, of course, and to educate you about some of the most important topics that we’re seeing arising in divorce and family law cases.

David Crum [00:00:42 – 00:00:46]

With me, as always, is our content director, Brooke Matthew. Brooke, thanks for joining us.

Brooke Matthew [00:00:47 – 00:00:48]

Hey, happy to be here.

David Crum [00:00:49 – 00:00:58]

So today’s topic is one that is near and dear to my heart. It is Parental Alienation Syndrome. Do you know what that is, Brooke?

Brooke Matthew [00:00:58 – 00:01:18]

Yeah, I know a little bit about it just from the work that I do at U.S. legal Group’s. But my understanding of parental alienation is parents are either intentionally or unintentionally getting the child to side with them over the other parent, which can cause a lot of damage. Am I right?

David Crum [00:01:18 – 00:02:08]

Yeah. It’s a tricky topic, and that’s why we have a really good, really smart guest who’s coming onto the show today to talk about this. I can talk about how it makes you feel. So these are cases that go far beyond just allegations of bad parenting, cases where the one parent is taking an active role in minimizing and a lot of times just completely removing the other parent from the children’s lives. But what’s really heartbreaking about it is that it’s often the kids themselves that begin voicing these things. So you will have a situation where you might have been a good mother or father or had a good relationship with the kids. And it is literally like your kids have turned into different people. They don’t want to see you, they don’t want to spend time in you.

David Crum [00:02:08 – 00:02:22]

They say they don’t feel safe. So you’re very literally alienated from your own kids. And you can imagine how difficult that would be for someone who already had a relationship with their kids.

Brooke Matthew [00:02:22 – 00:03:03]

I don’t have any kids myself, but I was a child aunt. My oldest niece actually just graduated high school. My sister has four kids ranging from nine to 18. And yeah, just seeing them grow up, seeing their development, seeing how any little thing that you say, they’re taking it in, they’re absorbing it and then they’re forming their own opinions about it, you know, whether it’s just them overhearing the grown up talk at the adult table or what. So I can’t imagine what this plays out like when, you know, there’s divorce, a lot of other complicated things that are at play.

David Crum [00:03:04 – 00:03:49]

And what’s really wild about it that a lot of people don’t understand is sometimes it’s not even intentional. Of course, I’ve had cases where one parent was very intentionally alienating the other person. But then there are other situations where I really, truly believe that the parent is just doing what they think is best for the kids. And then it just begins to snowball, it just begins to get out of hand. And then the kids, especially when they’re at a certain age, at a certain age, PAS is something that can really take, you know, take hold of kids. And it’s a very scary thing. And there are times too when, you know, the allegations will come out. There’ll be physical abuse allegations, sometimes sexual abuse allegations.

David Crum [00:03:49 – 00:03:53]

And these cases can go on for years in the courts.

Brooke Matthew [00:03:53 – 00:04:07]

It’s so horrible because it’s like, regardless, that’s just something that you absolutely don’t want to get wrong. It’s like you don’t want to not believe, but you don’t want to make the wrong accusation. It’s. It’s such a sticky place to be in.

David Crum [00:04:07 – 00:05:09]

Yeah. But the good news is that there is hope for this and there are specific ways that these cases can and should be handled. And that’s really what we’re here to talk about today. So, you know, the thing that people really have to understand is that this is not just a simple basic case of people being a bad parent. Not only is it complex from a legal standpoint, but the damage that it does to the child is so much more significant than just talking bad, because we’ve seen that, right. We’ve had guests on here talk where people just talk bad about the other party. This is like that on steroids and becomes a working narrative into the very family life of the family. So one of the advantages of being a CEO, and there are a lot of advantages, but one of the biggest advantages of a firm that has so many attorneys is that we get to talk to our own attorneys that have expertise in this.

David Crum [00:05:09 – 00:05:23]

And that’s who we’re going to bring onto the show today. So Adam Little is an attorney who’s a managing attorney out in Nebraska and has a lot of experience in these cases and has had a lot of success. So why don’t we go ahead and welcome Adam to the show.

Adam Little [00:05:25 – 00:05:25]

Foreign

David Crum [00:05:28 – 00:05:54]

well, it’s my pleasure to welcome to the show today attorney Adam Little. This is a complicated topic, guys, and so to have someone like Adam on here is a real treat. He’s been practicing law for 14 years. He is actually a managing attorney at Nebraska Legal Group. He’s also an appellate lawyer and a certified divorce mediator. So, Adam, welcome to the show. Thank you for taking the time out to come talk to us.

Adam Little [00:05:54 – 00:05:57]

Yeah, welcome. David Brooke. Thanks for having me.

David Crum [00:05:57 – 00:06:19]

So let’s start with this. You know, we’re here to talk about parental alienation syndrome, in my opinion, a very misunderstood topic, a very tricky topic and fairly rare in my experience. So let’s start with how many cases do you handle, have you handled that you think actually qualify as something where you’re seeing parental alienation syndrome?

Adam Little [00:06:20 – 00:06:46]

I think it’s something that comes up quite a bit. And there’s a big distinction between the allegation of parental alienation and there actually being some merit to it from the actual cases. I would probably say between 5 and 10 over my career have involved what I would consider to be true parental alienation. But it’s certainly alleged significantly more often than that and not nearly as serious as what actual alienation is.

David Crum [00:06:46 – 00:07:14]

And this is exactly where I was going with this. So I’m always afraid that parental alienation syndrome is going the same route as narcissist husband. Right. It’s something that you hear it so much now that it really doesn’t mean much. But this is a pretty serious topic or a pretty serious thing when it appears in a case. So let’s start with that. How do you describe it and in your experience, what does it look like to you when you’re seeing parental alienation in a case?

Adam Little [00:07:15 – 00:07:55]

Yeah. Parental alienation is it goes beyond just manipulating the children or making, you know, one child less interested in the other. It’s really getting to a point of gatekeeping behavior. It is often either direct or indirect attempt to influence a child’s perception of the other parent. You usually see it in manifesting in ways of reward behavior, always getting presents at dads and not at mom’s or different punishment schemes. It gets to a point oftentimes where there’s almost a hero complex for one parent where they can do no wrong. Everything they do is right. They’re the best, and the other parent is always wrong.

Adam Little [00:07:55 – 00:08:01]

Everything they do is terrible. That’s usually where you start to see the actual alienation arising.

David Crum [00:08:01 – 00:08:13]

Yeah. And it’s not just the parents that are saying it right. I mean, this is actually something that’s being communicated by the children. I mean, can you talk about that a little bit? When first time I saw that it was very, very disturbing to me.

Adam Little [00:08:13 – 00:08:37]

I think one of the biggest things that jumps out is you start seeing a lot more disruptive behavior. And this goes beyond just struggling with the separation and new routines and things like that, but almost kind of disruptive, trying to destroy the relationship. They don’t want a relationship with the other parent, but for almost ulterior motives.

Brooke Matthew [00:08:38 – 00:09:15]

So you mentioned something, David, about you hope that parental alienation doesn’t go the same route as narcissism, the way that that is typically viewed. I guess I just wonder why don’t courts like take these types of considerations into account? Like it seems like that emotional manipulation that narcissists portray or that parents who are trying to drive a wedge between their kid and the other parent, this seems like common toxic manipulation behaviors. I just don’t understand why the courts wouldn’t consider this.

Adam Little [00:09:15 – 00:10:02]

One of the big problems you see is it is weaponized a lot. It is something that people throw out as an allegation frequently, oh, I’m being alienated, the kid doesn’t want to spend any time with me. And the only obvious answer is because the other parent is the problem. And I think that’s part of the issue with the courts. It’s if you cry wolf 100 times, pretty soon it’s hard to believe. And there is also a very big distinction between the children not wanting to have as significant of a relationship with a parent as that parent would maybe desire versus the actual parental alienation syndrome. It is significantly more serious than what many people allege. And that’s why I think some of the courts don’t take it as seriously because it just it comes up so often without an actual psychological basis.

David Crum [00:10:02 – 00:10:36]

Adam so kind of along these lines, you know, we call it, it’s called Parental alien Jesus. Parental Alienation Syndrome. But this is something that’s actually not recognized by when we talk about, you know, when attorneys practice, we Refer to the DSM 5. This is the diagnostic manual that psychologists use. And it’s not even recognized as an actual syndrome, isn’t it? And how do you deal with that as a practitioner? I mean, I would imagine sometimes you’re even staying away from even using the term.

Adam Little [00:10:36 – 00:11:08]

I generally try do. You’re right on the nose. David I do try to avoid using parental alienation because again, it’s oftentimes not that it’s also something that I think a lot of judges are hesitant to. To go down for the very reason you indicate it’s not a recognized syndrome. It is an evolving area, and in my opinion, there are a lot of professionals that are really dealing with the root causes of this type of thing. So it’s kind of a loaded term. I think your analogy to narcissistic ideas is right. The nose.

Adam Little [00:11:08 – 00:11:37]

You really want to try and focus instead on the terminology. I like to look at gatekeeping behavior because ultimately it’s a lot of the same thing, but maybe without that loaded term to it. I’m trying to limit this child’s interaction with the other parent. I’m trying to influence them to be less interested with that parent. Judges understand that language. I don’t need a syndrome for a judge to understand that you’re preventing this child from having a relationship with the other parent is an issue.

Brooke Matthew [00:11:37 – 00:11:45]

So, Adam, you keep mentioning gatekeeping behavior. Could you give us some examples of some of the most common gatekeeping behaviors you see?

Adam Little [00:11:45 – 00:12:25]

Yeah. One of the most significant ones I see is this the kind of reward punishment cycle. You see a parent incentivizing children to not spend time with the other parent either through rewards. Oh, why would you want to go to dad’s when I can get you the new PlayStation over here at Mom’s? Combined with. Well, you went over to Mom’s, and I didn’t like that, so I’m going to take your PlayStation away from you. It can come in a lot of different flavors, but the intent is to try and limit the child’s involvement with the other parent directly or indirectly through influencing them to be less involved and

David Crum [00:12:26 – 00:12:49]

follow up to that one. So a lot of people that watch. So we have. One of the things that we do, obviously in the podcast is we try to entertain people, but we also like to educate people. And I know that attorneys watch this podcast, too. So let’s start there with, as a follow up to Brooke’s question, what are the things you’re looking for to distinguish. We have these situations where it’s just really shitty parenting. Right.

David Crum [00:12:49 – 00:13:09]

And then it kind of morphs into or actually falls into PAs. What are you looking at? What should attorneys be looking at? What should parents be looking at when they’re trying to understand if what they’re looking at is just more than kind of conflicts over parenting?

Adam Little [00:13:09 – 00:13:48]

I think one of the most telling signs I’ve seen are loyalty issues where you see one child having an absolute allegiance to one parent over the other. They can Only do right in their eyes, where the other parent is always wrong. And it can manifest in a lot of different ways. You see them less receptive to correcting behaviors, or they’re more disruptive. You know, whenever they’re at moms, they’re always getting in trouble at school, and dad says, well, they’re with me. They’re always a perfect angel, straight A student. The more dramatic those differences, the more you got to look into what’s really going on. You also see kind of the resistance to being parented.

Adam Little [00:13:49 – 00:14:32]

We all know the idea of rebellious teenager, and that’s part of it. And finding that distinction can be challenging, but seeing it a lot more than normal is something that can stand out. You also will look for. Children are less receptive to new partners. They are less receptive to changes in routine with one parent over the other. And the last one, I think, and this is one we see a lot in divorce. You see kids being overly involved in the litigation process, knowing things they maybe shouldn’t, knowing more detail than they should. And that’s a hard line to walk because kids hear things.

Adam Little [00:14:32 – 00:14:45]

And there’s a difference between overhearing mom and dad talking about it versus, hey, I’m telling you, this is what’s happening in court. Your mom’s trying to take you away from me. Those are the kind of things that

Brooke Matthew [00:14:45 – 00:15:12]

start to manifest with parental alienation. Do you see this more often with younger kids, with teenagers? I mean, when I think about it, when you’re saying, you know, kids overhear things, I tend to think about as you get a little bit older, your parents tend to be more open with you, more vulnerable. And if you see any of situations where sometimes the kids end up becoming almost like a therapist or an outlet

Adam Little [00:15:12 – 00:15:31]

for the parent, the most common time, and I think the sweet spot that parental alienation is the most likely or the kids are most vulnerable is that preteen area. When kids are really young, they’re a lot more resilient. They don’t fully understand what’s going on. Kids are a lot more flexible with things, but when they get.

Brooke Matthew [00:15:31 – 00:15:33]

They’re more innocent, too, I think.

Adam Little [00:15:33 – 00:16:11]

Yes. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When they get to a certain age that they start to understand the nuances a little bit more, they’re more susceptible. And that idea of the manipulation, the bribery, the negative influence becomes a little bit more tactile to the kids as they get older. If they haven’t been alienated yet by the time you’re a teenager, you know, late high school, they’re a lot More independent kids at that point make up their own mind about a lot of things. And so that area where they’re still malleable but still starting to understand things is where you see it occur the most.

David Crum [00:16:12 – 00:16:25]

So as an attorney working with a parent that’s facing this in a case, Adam, how do you start building a case? What is your strategy to start showing the court, hey, this is more, there’s more to the story here than what you’re seeing.

Adam Little [00:16:26 – 00:17:04]

Once we know that, there is the potential for it. One of the most important tools we have is a psychologist, a child therapist. They’re multipurpose. But I think number one and most importantly, they’re an important resource for the children because there could be other reasons for this behavior. I mentioned earlier that, you know, kids are adjusting through separation and things like that. There’s a difference between normal and alienating and having somebody who is more skilled in identifying those distinctions and is very beneficial. But ultimately, because it is not recognized, you really have to have strong evidence. Most judges aren’t just going to take mom or dad’s word for it.

Adam Little [00:17:05 – 00:17:11]

And having a therapist, having a psychologist being able to identify these types of behaviors is very useful.

David Crum [00:17:11 – 00:17:20]

Is this psychologist someone that your client hires or do you file a motion for the appointment of a psychologist? What does that process typically look like for people?

Adam Little [00:17:20 – 00:18:13]

I usually encourage my clients to hire them independently because you want to make sure your finding somebody that is willing to put in the work on this, that is aware of these types of issues and not just some run of the mill person. And I think it’s a very important distinction between having a therapist that is on a contractual obligation. I’m here for the best interest of the child. I’m here to investigate and here to help treat the child distinguished from a court appointed person. They’re in a limited role. They’re here for this period of time. I also like to use different therapists for different purposes. And so to your point, David, we oftentimes pair a psychologist with a guardian ad litem or a court appointed therapist or psychologist that will do a parenting analysis or, you know, something like that, recommendations on what they believe is in the children’s best interests.

Adam Little [00:18:13 – 00:18:22]

You don’t want to burn that bridge and lump it all together in one. So having those different tools and resources available can help you build the case from multiple angles.

David Crum [00:18:22 – 00:18:54]

Okay, so guardian ad litem for people who are not familiar with that. Right. Is a person who represents the child, is an attorney. What is their role then, Adam, in the case? So just so People know because this starts to get pretty heavy from an asset expenditure for parents. But I do think it is worth its weight in gold to spend the money if you have a case like this. So you’re asking the court, okay, we need a guardian ad litem. We have a psychologist. The psychologist is kind of looking at these PAs, even if you’re not calling it PAs.

David Crum [00:18:54 – 00:18:56]

What is the role of the guardian ad litem in a case like this?

Adam Little [00:18:57 – 00:19:42]

So I actually want to just clarify that. And this might be different in other states, but here in Nebraska, there is a distinction between an attorney representing a child and a guardian ad litem. And in my most recent alienation case, we actually had both. But the guardian ad litem is appointed specifically to be the fact finder for the court on what is in the children’s best interests. Most often they are providing evidence on, you know, what’s it like in mom’s home, what’s it like in dad’s home? And they’re very limited in the scope from the court. Contrast that with an attorney appointed to represent the children. Their role is an advocacy one, what is best for my client, and they speak for the children. The two different roles are very close, they almost overlap.

Adam Little [00:19:42 – 00:20:25]

But in this instance, as an example, the children might really want to be with one parent over the other, which is often a symptom of parental alienation. As a child advocate, that person needs to advocate for the child, and that can conflict a bit with that sort of alienation issue. Whereas a guardian ad litem is going to report things in a bit more of a neutral stance. And so we’re looking at. I’m noticing that when the kids are with mom, they’re acting this way, they’re making comments about dad this way, and it’s completely opposite when they’re in dad’s house. And that contrast really is where you can highlight to the court something’s not adding up here.

David Crum [00:20:26 – 00:20:36]

If people are really pressed for money, they just don’t have the money to hire all these people. Which one of the two would you suggest they hire?

Adam Little [00:20:36 – 00:21:07]

Guardian ad litem all the way. Just because their duty is to provide the facts to the court. And oftentimes the facts are a little bit different than an advocacy. And so I find if you’re going to only pick one, a guardian ad litem is often the best resource because it can draw the biggest contrast with what the therapist is seeing. Why are the kids acting this way differently in mom’s house versus dad’s house? It’s obvious to a court Appointed third party. Something’s not going right here.

David Crum [00:21:07 – 00:21:25]

So let’s say you have that scenario and you just have a guardian lite, and they’re finding some facts that are pretty bad. And you can use that. I would imagine, as the attorney, you’re not trying to now prove PAs, you’re just using this to establish this is bad behavior on the part of the. Would that be accurate on how you would approach it?

Adam Little [00:21:25 – 00:21:26]

Absolutely.

David Crum [00:21:26 – 00:21:42]

Adam, can you talk a little bit about cases that you’ve had where you’ve. There’s been this finding and how that. What did that look like? What did the court do so that people can understand that there’s a chance that this could be something they could prevail on?

Adam Little [00:21:42 – 00:22:31]

Absolutely. And that’s honestly one of the biggest struggles in any sort of alienation case, because the most successful approach is to remove the children from that situation until they can find a way to improve it. And putting up barriers to prevent that sort of poisoning of the well. And by necessity, that means removing the kids from one parent, either all or a majority of the time that they had. You have to remove that negative influence while also educating that other parent on that negative behavior. A lot of times that alienation is not intentional. They don’t realize that they are doing this manipulation to their kids. They’re just trying to be the fun parent or the good parent, and so that there’s an educational opportunity for that parent.

Adam Little [00:22:31 – 00:22:41]

Other times, certainly there are some bad actors out there that wish their spouse would never have anything good happen to them, and you need to have that barrier there.

Brooke Matthew [00:22:41 – 00:22:47]

Do courts ever require that parents like that go to therapy? Yes, as part of. Okay, good.

Adam Little [00:22:48 – 00:23:20]

And one of the most successful ones that I was a part of, we had a team of therapists. The children had their own therapist, the alienating parent had a therapist, and then there was a family therapist that had everybody together and helped work on that dynamic. And each was expressly authorized to communicate with each other about the different aspects of this to ensure that we’re addressing the root causes here. And that team approach eventually led to a significantly improved child and parent dynamic.

Brooke Matthew [00:23:21 – 00:23:22]

Oh, wow, that’s really awesome to hear.

David Crum [00:23:23 – 00:23:31]

So, and what was the result of that? Did the court change custody or what? And were there attorneys fees awarded or anything like that?

Adam Little [00:23:31 – 00:24:16]

There were significant attorney fees awarded in the initial instance because of the amount of resistance from the alienating parent in this process. They genuinely believed that they were doing what they thought was best, despite all of the evidence mounting that, you know, you’re poisoning your Children against the other parent. And that’s going to have long term consequences for them. The behaviors in school, in all of their inner social relationships. It can have kind of a domino effect. So it was a very significant improvement. The custody was taken away from that parent, There were attorney fees awarded, and that ultimately led to improving that relationship down the road. It took a long time.

David Crum [00:24:16 – 00:24:25]

Yeah, that was another question I had. How long do these cases play out? Usually, I imagine it’s not something that gets resolved quickly.

Adam Little [00:24:25 – 00:25:05]

No. And it’s a tough road to walk because it’s a lot of information. You have to build a history with the therapist, with the gal over time. This isn’t something where you can look at and say that right there is alienation, cut and dried. It’s a pattern of behaviors, it’s a series of actions. And you have to rule out all of these other very frankly more common causes, the separation, the gender differences, all of those sort of things. So it does take quite a bit of time and then also takes time to remedy that because now you’re undoing what can often be long term psychological harm.

David Crum [00:25:05 – 00:25:12]

Adam, do you see a difference between men and women in terms of the alienating parents in cases?

Adam Little [00:25:12 – 00:25:38]

I really don’t. I’ve seen it on both sides of the equation. The biggest thing is often the parent with the power. Power is the one that has that influence. And so the two most common circumstances is joint custody, where one parent doesn’t want the other to have joint custody or the primary parent just wants the other person out of the kids lives as much as possible. And so I’ve seen it from both sides of the coin.

David Crum [00:25:39 – 00:25:45]

So when this happens, then is what you’re talking about, is that referred to as reintegration therapy?

Adam Little [00:25:45 – 00:25:46]

Yes.

David Crum [00:25:46 – 00:25:49]

Can you talk about that a little bit and how that functions in a case?

Adam Little [00:25:50 – 00:26:34]

Absolutely. Reintegration therapy. And just to qualify, as I tell many of my clients, I’m not qualified as a therapist and I’m certainly likely more expensive than your therapist. So take it with a grain of salt. But my understanding from working with a lot of therapists in this context is we’re working on kind of multi phase approach, starting with the children. We need to identify the root cause of these negative behaviors, the performance in school, the insolence with one parent over the other, and help to rebuild that trust with both parents. And also an understanding that both parents are still equally their parents. At the same time, the alienating parent is having to address their behaviors.

Adam Little [00:26:34 – 00:27:00]

What’s causing this? Why am I doing this? You Ultimately are trying to bring everyone back together and making the as cohesive of an overall family unit as possible to the extent you can in a separated multifamily situation. So they’re working on it from all three angles to bring people back to a sense of normalcy and a sense of being able to have a functional co parenting relationship for the benefit of their children.

David Crum [00:27:00 – 00:27:12]

And if somebody thinks they have a case like this and they’re looking for counsel, how would you advise people? What would you tell them to look for when they’re going out to hire somebody to handle one of these cases?

Adam Little [00:27:12 – 00:28:07]

I think it’s something that’s very important to make sure that an attorney is familiar with this concept in general. Again, as I talked about earlier, it’s very commonly said but not understood. And anybody can take alienation and say, oh yeah, the other person doesn’t want your kids around. I’m sure whatever, that’s not the attorney you want. You want someone who has experience with professionals in the field that has a good network of therapists, of gals of understanding the resources and the commitment necessary to identify and then address these sort of problems. It’s something that not a lot of attorneys get experience in because again, it is kind of rare to actually be happening. So that’s something I always ask, I would advise people to always ask their attorneys, what experience do you have with it? Can you tell me about what you would do if this situation presented itself. Itself?

David Crum [00:28:07 – 00:28:28]

I would imagine, and especially in smaller markets, smaller communities, that you may, you may be talking to someone that you like, but they just have never had a case like this. Is that an absolute no or is it more like evaluating what they, what they say, what their strategy would be about the case.

Adam Little [00:28:28 – 00:29:07]

I certainly wouldn’t rule someone out just because they haven’t had that, because it’s something that many great attorneys out there may not encounter. Until your case, you really want someone who is willing to put in the work because this is not just a run of the mill custody case. So if there’s an attorney, maybe they don’t have specific experience with it, but they have an understanding of the psychological aspects of custody of child development. They’re perfectly capable of doing that. And I would ask them about what their resources are, what their connections are, who they would utilize. Those are the kinds of attorneys that have that knowledge, are the ones who can likely find the resources that they need to apply it.

Brooke Matthew [00:29:07 – 00:30:12]

It sounds like with this type of situation, when your kids are involved, if you have the resources to bring out people that are educated on parental alienation, whether that’s therapists. I know you said guardian ad litem, always number one, an attorney. This is like not the place to spare any expense because it can really impact the outcome of your case, your children’s life, your life. You mentioned a lot that sometimes this is really hard to be seen by the court. Parental alienation and parental alienation syndrome, that it’s difficult to be recognized by the court because we run into the same issue that people run into with narcissism where it’s just kind of diagnosing something without the facts behind it, or maybe it’s something different that’s not the correct term. What for all the attorneys out there listening or people that are trying to help someone through this. What are some examples of use when you’ve seen this go wrong?

Adam Little [00:30:13 – 00:31:01]

You have to be very careful because you get into the psychological well being of your children. And if you make an allegation of parental alienation and you’re wrong, you’re potentially risking damaging that relationship they do have with that parent. I think one of the most common instances where you’re walking a fine line is you see as kids get a little bit older, some gender differences. You know, boys want to spend some time with their dads or girls with their moms. And to be clear, it’s not always right along those clean gender lines, but it is one that you see a lot. And so you can see the boys don’t want to spend as much time with mom because we’re doing boys stuff and vice versa. That is very different. And if you make the allegation of parental alienation and you’re wrong, you could potentially poison that well.

Adam Little [00:31:01 – 00:31:14]

And now you’ve got a kid that is struggling to understand why is that parent being taken away from me. It rarely gets to that level, but it is, it’s. Once it’s out of the bag, it can be a very difficult thing to put back.

Brooke Matthew [00:31:14 – 00:31:34]

Yeah, so it’s kind of like that. You know, I hate to say cheesy, but the saying anything you say in court can and will be used against you. And it’s hard to take back what you say. So what are some things that you’ve heard people say that are really damaging to case cases like these?

Adam Little [00:31:34 – 00:31:46]

I think one of the worst things I see people claim is that your dad doesn’t love you or your mom doesn’t love you. They’re really doing this to get at me or vice versa because at the

Brooke Matthew [00:31:46 – 00:31:50]

end of the day, so parents are saying that to their kids about the other parents.

Adam Little [00:31:50 – 00:32:36]

They’re saying it to their kids. They’re saying it in court because it’s hard a lot of times for people that have gone through a bitter divorce or bitter separation to separate the role of their ex from the role of their child’s parent. And it can bleed over into the relationship with their kids a lot. And that’s where you see kind of the seeds of alienation start. It’s maybe not intentional. I’m not trying to destroy this relationship, But I really hate their guts. And I just don’t understand why my kid doesn’t understand that. I just can’t handle when they go over to their dads and have a good time, and it becomes this kind of subconscious acting out that starts this negative process.

Brooke Matthew [00:32:37 – 00:32:40]

Yeah, that’s really unfortunate, Adam.

David Crum [00:32:41 – 00:33:23]

It’s not just the parents making the allegations either, though. It’s the kids often, and this is probably the most shocking part of it, that are making allegations. Let me tell you a quick thing that happened to me. So we had a case like this when I was practicing, and the child was a bit older, I want to say, right around 12 or 13 years old, and was making a lot of allegations against the father about physical abuse. And the allegations were so preposterous. They were so preposterous that we knew we were dealing with something here. And the court wasn’t even taking them seriously. I think at one point the child said, he lifted me up over his head and he spun me around.

David Crum [00:33:24 – 00:33:45]

It was just physically impossible. Some of the things the child would say. And then there was no injury, and there was. How do you see those things? And, man, how do you fight against that? Because when a child makes a physical abuse allegation, boy, the parent gets a lot of traction pretty quickly in those cases.

Adam Little [00:33:46 – 00:34:29]

You hit the nail on the head there, David. Those are very common instances where this line gets very blurred very quickly. As a practitioner, I think it’s always difficult to not take allegations of physical abuse seriously, but there can be ulterior motivations, and that’s where getting to the root cause of these behaviors and these allegations is important. Certainly you never want to be dismissive of physical abuse or sexual abuse because those are very serious things that have lasting consequences. But there are, and I. I do find it more often with older kids. They’ll say what they need to say to spend more time with one parent over the other. And sometimes those motivations are purely personal.

Adam Little [00:34:29 – 00:35:11]

The. The child just doesn’t like the other parent. And so they’re doing it because they think they can get their way by saying, oh, dad hits me, or you know, dad spanks me so hard that maybe they’ll take him away, take me away from him. I don’t have to go over there anymore. Other times it is that subconscious behavior of one parent, the other parent struggling with their own personal trauma so much that the child picks up on that. And now it’s easy to see the other parent as the aggressor, as the problem. And what might have been a normal physical interaction or discipline, you know, grabbing the child’s wrist when they were hitting the other somebody else. And now it’s turned into dad wrenched me away and almost broke my wrist.

Adam Little [00:35:12 – 00:35:24]

Exaggerations suddenly become bigger issues. Those are really hard things to deal with. And that’s why you should always view them skeptically. But at the same time, a little bit of veracity to the statements, to be sure.

David Crum [00:35:24 – 00:35:50]

Yeah, when they describe it as alienation, I mean, it’s the right word. I mean, I’ve had cases where there was a seemingly normal relationship while the parties were married, and then it was as if this was a different child, you know, post litigation, saying things that the parent just couldn’t believe that they were saying and that we knew were not true. They just could not have been true, you know, as they were being presented.

Adam Little [00:35:50 – 00:36:26]

That brings up a really good point there, David, that it’s not just a one way street. You’ve also seen instances where the children will have a falsified view of the other parent and what they’ve done. They can do no wrong. That idea of one parent having a hero complex over the other. A great example I saw in a case of mom was doing something that she definitely shouldn’t have been doing. Maybe it was a little bit on the criminal side. I don’t want to throw anybody under the bus, but it was one that I think anyone of normal moral character would understand. Not a good thing to be doing.

Adam Little [00:36:27 – 00:36:46]

And the child unequivocally, now that is not a problem. I believe that that was an appropriate thing to do. And suddenly they could do no wrong. And so even when they do wrong, it’s now right. It’s warping their moral understanding. And that’s where it can get very dangerous.

Brooke Matthew [00:36:47 – 00:37:18]

So that brings up an interesting point, Adam, that I hadn’t even considered, in which, you know, parental alienation can happen sometimes without one of the parents saying or doing anything, or in situations like that where the, the child’s kind of beginning to alienate the parent on Their own, or trying to keep distance in between on their own? Is it typically because they’ve overheard something, they’ve seen something? Like, how do those tend to play out?

Adam Little [00:37:19 – 00:38:21]

Parental alienation often involves one of the parents actually doing something, either directly or indirectly or consciously or subconscious, if you want to think about it that way. But it can be sort of initiated by the children. I like to think of it like a runaway train, that for whatever reason, a child develops an opinion of the other parent, and then it becomes reinforced by one of the parents. The most common example I’ve seen are these allegations of excessive force or, you know, regular punishments now becoming excessive. And the idea that now the parent that is hearing these allegations struggles with the reality of, are they real? Do I need to give credence to this? And pretty soon it becomes such a significant pattern that they begin to believe it. And now, as a result, that parent begins engaging in other behaviors that can indirectly alienate the other parent. It is such a difficult line to walk when you deal with that sort of issue originating from a child. But ultimately, that has to come from somewhere.

Adam Little [00:38:21 – 00:38:23]

And most of the time, that makes

Brooke Matthew [00:38:23 – 00:39:05]

so much sense when you think about it. I mean, just think about how you’ve made some friends throughout your life. I don’t know if this has ever happened to you guys, but it sounds like they’re almost bonding over their mutual dislike for the other parent, and they’re kind of becoming closer, becoming friends off of it. And for that parent that’s hearing this from the child, you know, they’re already in kind of a negative headspace. They already have some animosity towards their ex, and their child is now starting to validate some of the issues that they’ve been having. And instead of thinking with clarity, you’re looking for validation instead. So I think that makes absolute sense. Adam.

Adam Little [00:39:05 – 00:39:36]

Validation is exactly how I would characterize it. That the idea of my negative association with that parent is now being validated by my child’s reactions, and therefore, it’s a feedback loop. Pretty soon it becomes even more significant. It’s something I think parents that are listening to this podcast really ought to be careful about and think about, how do I discuss their other parent? How do I discuss this court case? You really need to take great lengths to keep your kids out of it as much as possible.

David Crum [00:39:37 – 00:39:54]

Yeah, I mean, we’ve definitely had cases, or I’ve had cases where in some even sexual allegations, sexual abuse allegations that have originated with the child and that are amplified by the parent, and it’s not I guess that’s not technically parental alienation.

Adam Little [00:39:55 – 00:40:22]

It’s not, but I would consider it the seed to it that this becomes an echo chamber, that, oh, if they did this, which now I believe that allegation, then this other otherwise normally explainable thing must be because the other person is trying to do this negative thing. And so they start looking at this through that rose colored lens as opposed to more objectively understanding how that dynamic might play out.

David Crum [00:40:22 – 00:41:04]

Have you had instances where the reverse of this was happening, where there was some abuse that was happening, there was some things that were happening that were inappropriate and the parent was really just pushing the narrative that this is just the mother acting crazier, this is just the father being overprotective. I’ve definitely had a couple cases like that. And again, it’s super disturbing when it’s your client, because I am very skeptical of my own clients. Not skeptical, but I take everything they say with like, okay, I’m going to kind of evaluate and investigate this, but I’m just not going to blindly, you know, believe everything my client is saying. Yeah. Have you ever seen situations like that?

Adam Little [00:41:06 – 00:41:52]

Yeah. Very lawyerly of you, David. Yeah, I would agree. Any practitioner listening here knows we’ve heard it all, we’ve seen it all. And there’s a certain level of jadedness that you have. I think it serves us well as attorneys because if you believe every allegation, you will be in endless litigation and oftentimes with poor results. You do have to be very selective in how you approach it, what you believe, and, and it can be really challenging because I mentioned earlier the idea that you really want to give credence to physical or sexual abuse allegations, because if you’re wrong, that’s the most devastating thing to be wrong about. But you do have to be very judicious with how you approach it.

David Crum [00:41:52 – 00:42:30]

What I would like to point out, and like parents understand, and even lawyers that are listening to this, the court has a certain expectation, and I think we do as practitioners, to come in and to do more than just. Just take every allegation and throw it into an emergency motion and to cause World War three in a case. Right. There is an evaluative process, I think, that attorneys can take with each other with things that are being said, with things that are being happened, are happening that are just more practical and more helpful for the clients.

Adam Little [00:42:30 – 00:43:07]

Absolutely. I think one of the most important things as practitioners we can do is build that rapport with opposing counselors. Yes, they are opposing counsel. Yes, our interests are opposed Most of the time. But ultimately we both should be working for what’s in the best interest of the children, separate from our clients desire for the outcome. And I think some of these things become runaways, runaway train. The idea of it just building and building. And I think that initial conversation with opposing counsel of, hey, I just wanted to make you aware, my client has brought some things to my attention that I think are very concerning.

Adam Little [00:43:08 – 00:43:52]

Let’s have a discussion about how we can address this, because it also puts them on notice. You never want to be the person with the client who is alienating their kids. And if, you know, if somebody tells me, hey, I think your client’s doing this, we can have a real discussion. And that’s something as a practitioner you ought to be looking at on both sides of that coin with your clients. Is it happening or is my client potentially doing it? And being able to have that conversation with an attorney to say, this is a behavior that is problematic and it is likely tied to this sort of issue. You know, they’re making comments about this. I’m not sure why the child should know what was discussed in a deposition. Would you be willing to talk to your client about that? And we can just stop it from there.

Adam Little [00:43:52 – 00:44:11]

And now by putting him on notice, you also kind of set the table a bit. If it is happening, they start doing things more deliberately or try to think they’re sneakier than the system. And I think whole process, having a counsel on the other side that’s willing to discuss it is very valuable.

David Crum [00:44:11 – 00:44:34]

Yeah. Well, Adam, I know you’re a humble guy and you don’t like bragging about yourself, but I do want people to think that there’s hope in these cases. And I know you’ve had some pretty big, I hate to say wins, because nobody wins in these cases, but I know you’ve had some great singers success in addressing these types of cases. Can you tell us about one of these cases in particular that stands out in your memory?

Adam Little [00:44:34 – 00:45:17]

Absolutely. I think the. One of the ones that stood out the most to me was where it was very obviously happening. And there were some very serious changes. The children became different people than what they were before this process unfolded. And they became so entangled in a multi year process that they didn’t know any other reality at this point. Forcing everyone to step back, forcing everyone to go through that collaborative therapeutic process where each person involved was having to address their own issues. But then working together as a family unit to move forward, it addressed that problem to the point where everybody is now as far as I’m aware, because they haven’t called me back to hire me again.

Adam Little [00:45:18 – 00:45:49]

But I believe that they’ve been able to restore a functional co parenting relationship, that the children were able to go on to have very successful lives. And that is exactly what we as practitioners want to see. This isn’t like you said, David, it’s not about winning, it’s about success. And success in these types of cases is helping families co parent effectively, helping their kids have the tools they need to go into the world and be as successful as possible without the cloud of all this legal nonsense hanging over their lives.

David Crum [00:45:50 – 00:45:54]

So how bad was it for those kids? Like, where did we start and where

Adam Little [00:45:54 – 00:46:49]

did we end up in that instance? I genuinely believed without immediate intervention, the children were at serious risk of losing one parent entirely. And not in terms of that parent not being involved, but that their relationship with that parent was so poisoned that they didn’t want anything to do with them and they were self sabotaging and the kids didn’t understand what was happening and they were miserable. They were struggling in school, they were struggling in social relationships, and it was all stemming from this manipulative behavior that was going on. This. What felt normal was so grossly abnormal that without intervention, it could have been catastrophic. And being able to see that removed, it’s like the clouds lifting a little bit and the sun coming through. And to see that there is better days ahead.

David Crum [00:46:49 – 00:46:51]

There you go. So there is hope out there.

Adam Little [00:46:51 – 00:46:52]

Absolutely.

David Crum [00:46:52 – 00:47:17]

Stick with it. A good lawyer helps too. But you do have to keep pushing forward and believe that there is some faith and like, keep your cool and not get too triggered as the, as the parent that’s being alienated and, and you know, and I would, and I would also say, understand this is not really your kids, you know, that are doing this, but it can be hard to hear, you know, like the things you were talking about. It can be hard. I don’t want to come over there.

Adam Little [00:47:17 – 00:47:17]

There.

David Crum [00:47:17 – 00:47:24]

I don’t want to come to your house. I don’t want to go to the movies. I don’t want to see you. I hate you.

Adam Little [00:47:25 – 00:47:25]

That comes out a lot.

David Crum [00:47:25 – 00:47:54]

I hate you. Oh, it’s just absolutely devastating. So, Adam, thank you so much for your time. I know you’re a busy guy, and as we kind of wrap this up, what kind of advice or what would you say to parents that are out there that are just getting, you know, they’re just at the beginning of one of these things and they think that something like this may be going on, and they’re just kind of feeling pretty hopeless about this whole process.

Adam Little [00:47:55 – 00:48:39]

What I would tell anybody that is facing this potential situation is never give up. Never give up on your kids and never give up on the relationship that you have with them. As hard as this is, as difficult as that process may be, there are professionals out there that can help you. The system does work, and it can take a while, it can be difficult, but at the end of the day, this is your only shot. You need to do what’s best for your kids, and it is possible to repair that damage and have a healthy relationship with your kids for the rest of their lives. And even in best case scenarios, you might actually have a better relationship with your ex than you ever thought possible because they’ve had to address their root problem.

Brooke Matthew [00:48:39 – 00:48:40]

Wow.

David Crum [00:48:40 – 00:49:17]

Yep. Amen to that. I mean, that’s what I tell clients. I’ve seen this even outside of PAS cases where they’re just very strained relationships for whatever reason, and the parents just kind of stick with it, they give the kids some space, and they end up having a better relationship than they ever thought possible. Okay, Adam, I know you’re passionate about this topic. I know that you welcome other attorneys talking to you. We talked about this a little bit before, so I think you’re willing to have attorneys reach out to you if they’re facing this type of case and you’ll talk to them a little bit about it. And of course, if somebody needs help and need to be representing the case.

David Crum [00:49:17 – 00:49:19]

But what would be the best way for somebody to actually reach out to you?

Adam Little [00:49:19 – 00:49:53]

Absolutely. You can go to our website, nebraskalegalgroup.com My profile is available there, as well as my email. I’m always available for people who want to be or potential clients. Reach out and set up a consultation with me and mention, hey, this podcast, I heard this or this topic, so that I. I know that it’s something we’re interested in. If you’re an attorney or someone who wants to know more information, I’m always happy to be involved. I’m very involved in a lot of bar associations and different groups where this is a very common topic. So you ever see me, by all means, I’m happy to have that conversation.

David Crum [00:49:53 – 00:50:00]

Well, that’s great, man. You’re very generous with your time. Well, Adam, thank you once again, and thanks for joining us and have a great day.

Adam Little [00:50:00 – 00:50:01]

Great to see you guys. Take care.

David Crum [00:50:01 – 00:50:02]

Okay, take care.

Brooke Matthew [00:50:02 – 00:50:03]

Thanks, Adam.

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