How Lawyers Can Have a Legal Career and a Family

Episode Notes

Transcript

Montana Funk:

This is Young Lawyer Rising from the ABA Young Lawyers Division and Legal Talk Network. Welcome back listeners. This is your host, Montana Funk. Today I sit down and talk with Kim Maney. Kim went to law school and graduated at the University of Wisconsin. Now Kim is assistant general counsel and lead for privacy, digital and cybersecurity for US commercial at GlaxoSmithKline, a large pharmaceutical company. Kim and I discuss balancing work life and family life, including advice to professionals with children, as well as how companies can support individuals in their role as parents. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoy our conversation. Kim, thank you so much for jumping on this podcast with me today.

Kim Maney:

Thanks for having me.

Montana Funk:

So obviously this episode geared towards our listeners and just for listeners so they’re aware, we’re talking today about managing and balancing the family and work life, how you navigate through that. But before we jump into that, I do kind of want you to just explain what your role is. You obviously are currently assistant general counsel at GSK, so general counsel is a little bit different than some other attorney positions. So before we jump into the work and family life balance, just explain to our listeners what exactly it means to be assistant general counsel.

Kim Maney:

In my current role, I am an individual contributor and I lead privacy, digital and cybersecurity for the US commercial organization, meaning I help a variety of leaders as well as other lawyers kind of navigate issues that come up in pharmaceutical marketing for privacy, digital and cyber issues. So it is a lot of subject matter expertise but then also a lot of active engagement helping teams to issue spot around a variety of issues.

Montana Funk:

So is there a difference, and for the listeners out there who might be doing litigation or criminal work or an associate, how does the role of general counsel different from a position of just an associate at a law firm or a lead attorney on a criminal case?

Kim Maney:

I think that just gets foundationally to the difference between being an outside counsel and being an in-house counsel. In the work that I do, I work very, very closely with my clients kind of arm in arm. We are deeply partnered in the delivery of business and the kind of business objectives and I won’t say, and it interwoven with legal compliance where if you are an outside counsel you might provide more legal advice and you don’t know what happens to it. Where I am with my clients every day helping them to navigate how they can act compliantly to meet their objectives and then helping them to operationalize that.

Montana Funk:

And I appreciate you going into detail on that. I think it’s important just for our listeners who might be in different roles or similar just to help navigate the future topics we’re going to talk about. So jumping into the family aspect of this, obviously this, like I said, episode is centered around the balance between family life as well as work life and obviously you being a mother, that’s something that I think a lot of our listeners, whether they be fathers or mothers at some point in their career or if they start their career as a parent will have in terms of saying, I want to start a family or I already have one. So to kind of go back to the beginning of your journey, can you kind of explain to our listeners when you made the decision that you wanted to be a parent, what challenges did you face in the workplace?

Kim Maney:

I think one of the challenges is as a lawyer, you are incredibly busy all the time, right? There’s no time and just kind of deciding all these things, all this work and trying to figure out how you could make space for a family kind of when you are many times working 10 hours a day, where’s the space for a kid? You don’t want to not be home and not be available. So just kind of sitting down and really thinking about that and trying to figure out when is a good time. As you’re thinking about your trajectory in a career,

Montana Funk:

Did you turn to anybody within your company when you were making that decision to seek advice or was it more of something that you thought of, okay, I want to do this and I’m going to do it and deal with it later? Or how did you navigate even telling your company that?

Kim Maney:

I think I observed the people in my department. I was lucky enough to work with a really awesome collection of both men and women who were parents and just watching them navigate it and figuring out how to do it. So I don’t think there was any kind of direct conversation about it. It just was seeing the things and the choices that they were making kind of informed some of mine.

Montana Funk:

That makes a ton of sense. And I guess is there any challenges that you expected to come across that you realized maybe were different or anything that you didn’t expect that you came across that you were like, oh wow, I did not realize I’d have to navigate this?

Kim Maney:

Well, I think even the figuring out childcare that ended up being much more complicated. Figuring out whether going to have a nanny, which seems like such a simple thing, well we’ll just hire one. It’s very hard to do. And then figuring out if you’re going to go to daycare, oh we’ll just go to daycare. Well first you have to decide. Both my husband and I are lawyers and work full time, so I didn’t think about that. We would have to figure out where the daycare was going to be. In my head, there was a daycare that was on my company’s campus and I thought, well yeah, that’s what we’ll do. And then he said, well, if you’re ever out of town, I can’t get there. And I’m like, oh yeah, that is a really awesome, it’s a great point. And so we had defined a more, hadn’t thought about that a more centrally located daycare, which of course we had to get on a waiting list for. Also unexpected that for care, there are often waiting lists that you have to get on and I don’t know that people kind of appreciate that.

Montana Funk:

I will say that that’s something, I don’t have any children of my own, but I have spoken to coworkers who do, and I didn’t even think that that would be something that have to happen getting on this wait list. Or I had some friends who have children who almost had to audition their kids for these daycares.

Kim Maney:

If it’s a fancy enough daycare for sure. You definitely have to kind of go in and all that. But I mean for sure we were on a wait list and again, I’m like, are we really on a wait list?

Montana Funk:

Yeah, no kidding.

Kim Maney:

I hope this works out. I like

Montana Funk:

This is kind of important thing, so I hope that we get off it. So I guess you had mentioned being organized when you were talking about making this plan. So going towards the skills that you either had already or realized that you needed to strengthen before taking on this role as a mother who also was an attorney, what skills did you find you really had to lean on in order to help that transition?

Kim Maney:

I think being already as a lawyer, you are a multitasker, right? You’re always kind of thinking. So just being able to think about multitasking and then also just being able to be, create boundaries and be more direct. I think you know how to talk and know how to be an advocate for sure. So you have to say, okay, guys, can’t do the seven o’clock meeting, I have to go or maybe six o’clock, six six something. I have to be at the daycare to pick up my child. And so kind of establishing those boundaries, which sometimes many times people are not used to. Right? Yeah.

Montana Funk:

So I think that that’s all really, really important. And you had also mentioned kind of be sticking to your guns for lack of better word and paraphrasing you. But I do want to take a break, but when we come back, I kind of want to dive more into having those conversations and advice that you would give our listeners in terms of having them.

So before the break, Kim, you were talking about how you had to have these boundaries and also we mentioned that there’s going to be conversations obviously when you’re navigating switching from an attorney to an attorney who was also a parent. So I guess what sort of advice would you have to give to our listeners who are like, okay, I want to do this. I know I want to start a family, I don’t know how to approach my employers about this, and advice you can give them just about how to make that transition easier and how to advise their company that this is a plan going forward?

Kim Maney:

Yeah, I mean I don’t know that you don’t really need anybody’s permission. I think it is just deciding that you’re going to choose and have a family, just letting people know what that will mean and just setting expectation. So if you have been a person, particularly if you’re in a firm and you’ve worked 12, 14 hours a day, I think it’s probably more you as a person need to accept that you likely won’t be able to do that anymore and maybe align yourself with what that might mean in the organization. For sure. I know, and I am know a lot of very successful mothers. I am actually on a Facebook group of, I won’t say the name of the group, but it’s about 10,000 lawyers that are women in the US and we talk about all kinds of issues, a lot of it trying to navigate successful legal careers and being a mom. So I don’t know that you need the permission or that you even have to engage with your office about what you’re going to do. I think it is more kind of setting your own boundaries and being understanding that you can’t, there’s only 24 hours in the day and there’s only so much that you can do.

Montana Funk:

Absolutely. And now kind of navigating to the side of the actual leaving part, when people leave for leave or paternity leave, how did you navigate actually being out of the office and balancing whether or not that meant that you completely took work off during that time or if you kind of incorporated work somewhat? Was there a certain path that you took when you were on maternity leave?

Kim Maney:

So because of employment laws, so if you are out on, it’s either short-term disability or whatever, I think it’s actually considered short-term disability. You can’t work, so many companies will completely cut off your access to computers, so you can’t kind of engage like that. I mean it’s a big just case, but big corporation. So it might be more flexible in other places. But I wasn’t allowed to be on my computer or anything. Strange story when I was on maternity leave, maybe it was I planned to be out for a full six months. About the fourth month, the attorney who had taken my place quit and the team that I was working with called me and said, what if we hired someone to come to your house and then if you came back to work early and that person came and watched the baby while you did this meeting for us? And that’s kind of how, which was very unusual and I could have said no, but that was an unusual thing that happened that they hired someone to come to my house to.

Montana Funk:

Well, that’s funny you said that. I actually wanted to ask you, and my next question was going to be obviously, I’m sure we have some listeners who struggle just like I’m sure a lot of us do and including myself to kind of find that balance and let yourself have that time off. So how did you find, I mean was it difficult for you to kind of say, okay, I actually have this new role now it’s a different job. I’m stepping away from a previous role and I can’t really go back to right. I’m not allowed to be working on that. So how did you navigate? Okay, I actually am forced in a way to take a step back from this one job and now take on this completely new role?

Kim Maney:

Yeah, I think that was probably the hard part because I am a multitasker in a very busy mind, and so it took a minute to just be present and having this different time in your life. It was awesome. But it definitely took time and I am sure, if I recall, I received some great advice from other moms about be really present, don’t do anything. Don’t clean your house, don’t do any of these things. Just really focus on the time. So it took some wind downtime if you’re used to being very busy.

Montana Funk:

Did you find that going back to work after having this wind down time was also a hard adjustment or was it easier because being that multitasker is something that you kind of knew and were already

Kim Maney:

Yeah, it wasn’t hard to return and so it wasn’t difficult for me to return to be ready to go back to work particularly I feel like it was easier because I had this ramp up and came back kind of part-time and then kind of came back into the office full time. And I also had a really awesome group of people that I worked with and so they were very helpful. It wasn’t a lot of stress. I didn’t arrive back in the office to nothing. Having been done for the whole time I’d been away or a lot of pressure to get a bunch of things done. I felt like it was very reasonable transition. Did

Montana Funk:

You find that your job, that there was any sort of expectations when you came back or anything that surprised you when you made that transition back from actually being on maternity leave to back in the office?

Kim Maney:

No, but I will say I feel like that had a lot to do with where I worked. So it was just a company and a place that really respected working people, both men and women and wanted people to spend time. So I will say, and if my daughter were here, she’d tell you she went to a lot of meetings. She’s attended copy approval and been on contract negotiations and I have pictures of her and my office and my chair and with different people in my office. So they were just very open to that and that I think that is very specific to the North Carolina probably division to the law department to there are many stories of children in our office where our kind of deputy general counsel at the time is in a call and holding somebody’s kid on his lap and letting them eat candy off his desk.

So I just think the atmosphere, people were very open. And I will say that the way that I have, I returned to work, I am a work-life integrator instead of a work-life balance person. So I definitely am going to leave the office and make it to soccer games and ballet and all of that, but then I might get back online later that night. I’ve taken conference calls in line at Disney World, but also kind of taken off early to be able to do things. So I think that’s the way I’ve always thought about it and it hasn’t been too traumatic. I will say that I feel like Covid was, COVID times were really a dramatic shift for the way that you could think about being a working parent because I hope, I know that many companies learned that it is completely possible for someone to be in their home and be an incredibly productive person and the ability of people to be home more allowed them to be more present in their family and as parents and still kind of get their work done in a reasonable and a reasonable time. So I hope that we keep those. I was home with my daughter during Covid and it was fantastic and I wish that we had embraced more remote working earlier than that.

Montana Funk:

I think that’s also something that is really important to touch on is just kind of how times have changed with Covid and how the remote work is so common for a lot of places now. And I want to get into that and I want to get in more to advice that you would have to working parents as well as maybe firms for navigating that. But let’s take one quick break and then we’ll come back and jump into that. So I want you to tell the listeners, I think you had a good point before we went on a break. An example, you said taking conference calls in Disney World. I guess what is some advice that you would have to working parents, whether it be how they can manage work at home or on the road, like you’re saying, just advice for those who are feeling overwhelmed and not knowing how to navigate actually still working well, maybe not being directly in office.

Kim Maney:

So I would say that just having a plan, thinking about what it is, I’m going to say balance, but that’s a terrible term, just really thinking about managing your expectations. So here’s the thing for my daughter, I decided or we decided we’re not going to do any travel sports. That was just not a thing, that there wasn’t time for it. And that was just how that was going to be. We just wouldn’t have time to do that. So we decision to make for a newborn, but we made it so then that’s just that pressure off that we are not going to have to figure out how to have two 40 plus hour a week jobs and how to drive and then drive to tumbleweed to play soccer on the weekends. We just decided that wasn’t a thing for us. Also, deciding about roles that required significant travel that wasn’t something I was going to choose, doesn’t mean that that travel options aren’t available. I’ve had colleagues that have done international assignments and taken their whole family with them, so it doesn’t mean it’s off the table, it’s just kind of figuring out how to navigate.

Montana Funk:

And was there any time when you had to talk to your daughter and say, okay, this is what mom has to do in terms of work and manage her expectations in a way? Or I guess how did you navigate when maybe she was wondering, okay, I see that you’re working or I have to come with you to these meetings or you have to take this call, and how did you navigate those conversations?

Kim Maney:

I’ve always had those conversations with her and the conversation, this is what work looks like and I want to raise a very financially literate child. So we talk about that, how work results in money and what that money brings to your life. So we do have conversations about that. It’d be awesome if everyone could just hang out and play all day, but that’s not, people have to work. It’s important and it allows us to do these things, including being able to volunteer or to give money to things just for her. And I think that it has helped her, I would say, and kind of think about what she wants to be. She has big dreams for herself and that was in wanting to be kind of a working mom. That’s one of the things that I wanted for her to model a big dream for her.

Montana Funk:

Well, that’s awesome. And I think too, it helps to have that role model in your parents to set that example and show that there also is space for being a parent outside of it. You don’t have to completely devote your life to work, but you can maintain this balance and still have fun and go on these vacations, but there’s a way to do it and there’s certain sacrifices while there also are certain times that you can have fun as a family and focus on that. So I think that that is super important for our listeners to understand that they can do it. It doesn’t mean it’s easy. Being a parent is, like I said, I’m not one, but I can imagine it is not easy and I’ve seen it before. So it’s just navigating like you said, right, this is what we do and just setting those expectations.

Kim Maney:

And I’ll also say that my daughter has two parents, so there’s nothing magical that’s about that’s happening with me working and not being home. She also has another parent who is awesome at ballet buns and who makes a mean grilled cheese. And so also picking the right partner is going to be really important for your success. Someone who believes that they have to also kind participate in all of that. And I can 100% say that no one has ever asked my husband how he balanced raising a child and working. No one has ever asked him that.

Montana Funk:

It’s funny you say that too, because I was a dancer, so my dad also kind have that role

Kim Maney:

Of Yeah, awesome balance on. He really can.

Montana Funk:

And it’s funny, you don’t ever think that, but it’s true too. And that’s why I mentioned earlier, I mean this episode isn’t even for just mothers and people who are taking maternity leave. There are fathers out there too are doing just as much.

Kim Maney:

Yes, which I love. I’ve seen, yeah, a lot of paternity. We used to have very short kind. You got whatever you got for maternity leave and then you got a week of paternity leave and now they’ve tried to match. I think you get six weeks of paternity leave and whatever you’re going to put together for maternity leave. So it’s just very helpful helping to get your schedule together and your family together to have that time. So I’m glad that we are recognizing that children have two parents when they do.

Montana Funk:

Yeah, absolutely. We got to give a shout out to those fathers who are also doing the ballet buns and making

Kim Maney:

The grilled cheese.

Montana Funk:

So one thing I also want to make sure that we do touch on before we wrap up this episode is kind of going back to how you had a really supportive company when you were going through this and advice that you could give to other employers and firms and companies based on what you saw and the support you received. And maybe just something that you can tell those who are listening that are like, okay, I also want to be that supportive, but I don’t know how.

Kim Maney:

Yeah, I think one thing is seeing your employees as your greatest assets, understanding that miserable, overworked people are, you don’t want that to be the culture of your office and where you can embrace that the people in your office work there, but they also have lives outside of there. And just be flexible. I just think companies are going to be much more successful. You’re definitely going to attract a lot more women and men who are interested in being parents than by having more restrictive, more restrictive kind of processes or culture. I definitely, in my group of lawyers that are moms, people do talk about companies that are more open and ones that are not, and firms that are open and are not. And there definitely was a kind of a article that talked about that when you look at partners and law firms, maybe why you don’t see the gender equity is because women will exit because they want to find more flexible spaces to be for raising kids.

Montana Funk:

And do you think that you saw, you’re talking about how women can leave to find this flexibility. Did you experience any of those biases firsthand or I mean even maybe through this Facebook group, what things are you hearing about that firms are kind of, what’s the right word here, pushing on maybe the females in their firm that you think, Hey, just because it’s a female, just because a mother, that shouldn’t be the case and that they need that support regardless if it’s a father or a mother.

Kim Maney:

Yeah, I think that is coming around. I think that is more maybe leaders in law firms who have had both parents that work now understanding and going, oh yeah, now I want to be more open to that and this job if I want a well-rounded employee who can give me their best, I need to recognize all the different facets of their life and give and be more flexible and where I can give people an opportunity to be in the office three days a week instead of five, why not?

Montana Funk:

Yeah, I think that that is super important and kind of ties back into how Covid did allow us this more remote work and hybrid schedule. And hopefully that does continue forward because I think everyone benefits from being able to have that balance and whether it means being able to just stay at home with your children for the day while still getting work done. I just hope that continues to grow and that could continue to become more acceptable and hopefully in the future, we get towards a system where both mothers and fathers are treated the exact same, and everyone should get credit for this.

Kim Maney:

During Covid, we of course took a lot of calls and a colleague of mine was obviously home and they had a baby and we’re in a meeting and the baby’s crying. And of course in an old time culture, it’d be like, oh my goodness. But in our covid time we were like, pick up the baby dude we want, and then we, Jesse picked up the baby, he had the baby, and we just continued on with our meeting super parents and I love that just right. So I thought again, that was, it’s a good to have a culture that embraces you have your whole self, which includes the part of you that is a part of a family that maybe needs five minutes of work, daytime to manage that creating that as a culture has value to the company. Those are people who will stay.

Montana Funk:

Oh, absolutely. And I mean, being less stressed at work will then make you less stressed at home and vice versa. Well, I mean this has all been super helpful, Kim, and I appreciate you telling us the advice you have and just your experience. I think that this is something that isn’t talked about super often, but it’s a reality of a lot of people’s lives, and like you said, hopefully we’re moving towards a time where it’s kind of just the norm and there doesn’t even have to be these kind of conversations, but I appreciate that you were open to having it today. Yeah,

Kim Maney:

So the only thing that I would add is my, so I am the intern coordinator for GSK and one thing, which is a weird conversation, maybe I’ve been reported to HR and I just don’t know it, but I always tell my interns that you will have so much pressure in your role, in your jobs and that you’ll kind of be thinking about when to have kids that there’s no good time, that there’s not just do it and figure it out.

Montana Funk:

Yeah. There’s never going to be a right time. There’s

Kim Maney:

Never going to be a right time, and this is kind of our special lunch that we go out. I’m like, I’m just going to tell you this. Take it as it is for your life. There is no good time. Just do it and then figure out the rest.

Montana Funk:

Yeah, I’ve heard that before. There’s not a right time. You just have to do it when you feel ready and you may not ever feel ready, but that doesn’t mean you’re not, so hopefully our listeners who are trying to navigate this can take away some important advice from this episode. Yeah. I do want to ask you, I like to ask everyone to make sure that our listeners also have places to turn. Is there any place that our listeners can find you or reach out to you if they want any more advice or to just follow up about any of the discussions we’ve had today?

Kim Maney:

Yeah, I am on LinkedIn and if anyone would like to ping me on LinkedIn and send me a message to ask more questions, always happy to connect and talk to working parents about how to make it work.

Montana Funk:

Well, thank you so much, Kim. Like I said, I really appreciate this and I hope you have a great rest of your day with your family,

Kim Maney:

And thank you so much for your time today. Thank you.

Montana Funk:

Of Course. Listeners, that’s our show. As always, I want to thank you for tuning in and if you like what you heard today, please recommend us to a friend. As you know, we can be found anywhere that you listen to podcasts. Thank you again for joining us, and thank you, Kim, for sitting down and having this conversation. I hope you all enjoyed our discussion. Until next time, this is your host, Montana Funk, and you’ve been listening to Young Lawyer Rising, brought to you by the a Young Lawyers Division and the audio professionals at Legal Talk Network.