First Native American Woman President of the ABA: Mary Smith’s Incredible Career

Episode Notes

Transcript

Montana Funk:

This is Young Lawyer Rising from the ABA Young Lawyers Division and Legal Talk Network. Welcome back listeners. This is your host, Montana Funk. Today I’m joined by Mary Smith. Mary Smith joins me today to discuss her path to becoming the first native American woman president of the American Bar Association in the associations almost 150 year history. She’s a past CEO of the Indian Health Service, a 6 billion organization that provides healthcare to over 2 million native Americans across the country. Additionally, she’s the vice chair of the Vein Group and an independent board director at PTC Therapeutics. Thank you to Mary for joining me today, and I hope you enjoy this episode. Good morning, Mary. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Mary Smith:

Well, good morning.

Montana Funk:

So something I like to always start off with when I have these guests on is kind of knowing the background of where my guests have come from and how they’ve gotten to this spot. I think that’s really important for our listeners to kind of just brace them for what the episode’s going to look like. So the easy question I like to start with is, Mary, how did you first become interested in becoming a lawyer and working in this area?

Mary Smith:

Well, I actually didn’t grow up planning to be a lawyer. I actually didn’t know any lawyers until I went to law school. I enjoyed all subjects equally in grade school, high school and college, from science to literature to political science to theology. But I have a pragmatic side. So I actually majored in math and computer science as an undergraduate, and I worked as a systems programmer for a few years after college. And I realized that the part of my job that I enjoyed the most was helping people, but I was only helping people in a very narrow way with their computer issues. And I thought there were other parts of my personality that I could use to help people in broader ways. So that’s when I thought about going to law school.

Montana Funk:

Well, I have to commend you for doing math and science stuff because that is definitely not my forte, and I do have to say that part of the reason I chose law was because of that. So the fact that you did all of that and then chose this path I think is it’s pretty amazing because those are some pretty hard areas and obviously no law is so different. So it’s kind of cool to see how that took you from one complete area to something so new, but based on this idea of wanting to help people. And something also that I’ve noticed when I was kind of looking at your credentials and everything you’ve done is not only are you just a lawyer, but you’ve really dipped your toes in a lot of areas. I know that you’ve had work with the Department of Justice, you’ve worked for the White House, you’re the CEO of the Indian Health Services. You’re the vice president of the VAN group, so there’s really a lot that you have done. And I’m wondering if you can kind of explain to our listeners how each of these experiences were different from you, but also how they all kind of worked to shape the professional that you think you are today.

Mary Smith:

Yeah, I think the one thing that I would tell younger lawyers and young people is I of course had some thoughts about what I wanted to do in my career, but the key thing looking back is that I was not so wedded to the plan that I had concocted. I was open to opportunities and tried to position myself for opportunities. And so when an opportunity arises that you can accept it and have something that you might not have planned. So for instance, when I started off my career, I wanted to be a trial lawyer. That’s the main thing I wanted to do. And I worked at a law firm in Chicago, but it’s just sadly true that if you’re in private practice, there aren’t that many civil trials. The main trials that happen are criminal trials. So you really have to be either a prosecutor or a defense attorney in the criminal space if you want to be doing a lot of trials.

So I applied to the Department of Justice to be a trial attorney, and I ended up doing that and I really enjoyed it. But then I became just pure curious, I would say curious about the political process, about presidential campaigns. And a presidential campaign was happening where I lived in Washington DC I wouldn’t have to move to work on the campaign. So I started sending letters to the campaign saying that I would volunteer in the evening. And at some point I realized that I was kidding myself because I was working till midnight every night at the Department of Justice, and I realized there’s no way that I could have left work and volunteered on the campaign. So at one point I sent a letter saying that I would volunteer full time. And surprisingly because I didn’t know anyone, I didn’t know anything about campaigns other than that I was curious about it and fascinated about it and interested in it.

I got a call from a woman at the campaign asking me to come over and meet with her. So I met with her and I think in retrospect, I think she just wanted to look me in the eye to see if I was serious if I would quit my job as a trial attorney at the department justice to volunteer on the campaign for free. So she asked me that, she said, you’re going to quit your job and volunteer on this campaign for free. And I said, yes, I will. And she said, okay, well come on over. And even though it wasn’t in some ways that long ago, it was really before people were using email and certainly texts and people sent physical letters like I did. And as I was leaving her office, she had two of those stock gray file cabinets on the side of her room, and something made me ask like, oh, what’s that? She said, oh, those are all the resumes that I have. And for some reason, without knowing me or knowing anything about me, she gave me that opportunity. And that kind of led me to the path of frankly, the rest of my career just working in the White House and some of the other opportunities I’ve had, the Indian House Service. And it was just that feeling of being curious and willing to take a risk.

Montana Funk:

That’s really interesting to me because obviously being a trial attorney and then going to a full-time volunteer position is a major difference. And I think a lot of people in our career especially kind of get cold feet when it comes to maybe trying a different area or doing something outside of a realm that they think they’ve specialized in. So I know you said that taking risks was kind of something that you had to do, but is there anything that you can tell our listeners that kind of guided you when making such a big jump that allowed you to feel like, okay, this is a good decision, this is a right decision, and whatever happens is going to happen?

Mary Smith:

Yeah, I did. I mean, I did think through it and I enjoyed my job at DOJ. I mean, those jobs are hard to come by as well. They’re very competitive and I enjoyed doing the trials, but I realized that I was curious and fascinated by campaigns, and I thought that the older I would get, the less likely I would up and do something like this. So if I wanted to do it, now was the time. It also played into it that I wouldn’t have to pack myself up and move cross country to work on the campaign. It was actually in the city where I was already, and then I thought the finances were probably the biggest issue. And I thought, well, I was not that many years out of law school and I was still paying student loans and I really needed a job, but I thought, well, worst case scenario, I will not be making any money for about six to eight months. I can float that long. And then I said, well, even if I can’t come back to the Department of Justice, I thought I must’ve been able to get some other job in the legal field. So I was willing to do it.

Montana Funk:

I think that that’s awesome. And I definitely think that that just goes to show that even if it’s something that our listeners, maybe you’re thinking, Hey, I want to switch career paths or just areas, it is worth the risk and it sometimes leads to amazing opportunities. So I want to take a quick break, but when I get back from the break, I do want to talk a little bit more about just the journey of how taking these risks led you down to some different opportunities. So before the break, we were kind of talking about the different areas that you’ve experienced in your career and taking these risks. And one thing I do want to touch on is that you were the CEO of the Indian Health Service, and I am curious about how that path and your legal background, how that kind of helped you move into an area such as the Indian Health Service, and if there was any takeaways from either that job or any of your jobs that you think really stands out to you.

Mary Smith:

Well, that job was another opportunity that came to me. Well, first of all, for the listeners, native American, I’m an enrolled citizen of the Cherokee Nation and I get my Native American heritage from my grandmother. And earlier in my career when I worked in the White House, I actually worked on Native American policy issues, but the predominant part of my career is not working on Native American issues. So I was sitting at home and I got a call one day asking if I’d be interested to lead the Indian Health Service and probably not. The thing to do when you get a call like that, I just blurted out and said, I’m a lawyer, not a doctor. Because the organization had always pretty much been led by someone with a medical background. And they said, yes, yes, yes, we want someone who’s a strong manager. And I had to really think about it because it’s too important a role.

Probably most roles are that you don’t want to take it if you don’t have the right background. So I reached out to friends and tribal leaders and other in the native community to really think whether I would be the right person to do it. And I also thought about my grandmother because she grew up in a family of 16 children, only 10 of whom lived above the age of three because of lack of adequate healthcare. And I do believe passionately about uplifting and helping Native American communities. So after consulting with some people and thinking about it myself, I did think that there was value I could bring even as a lawyer. And it is true, I don’t have a medical background, so I was not making medical decisions. But to the extent medical experience plays into some decisions, I of course had to rely on the positions and other medical professionals on the staff.

But I do think being a lawyer was very valuable because some of the big issues facing the organization at that time were these major multi-billion dollar contracts with tribes. And prior to my arrival, I think some of the lawyers who were representing us were very much risk averse in terms of we had a lot of litigation. And so they had communicated to the senior team that we couldn’t do certain things. And as a lawyer, I would question it and think, no, I think we can actually do that. So I actually was able to lead negotiations with tribal representatives, redo some of these contracts, and that was directly related to my legal experience. So I think a legal background can help in different positions even in unexpected ways.

Montana Funk:

I think that that is important for our listeners to know too, that even if you have this legal degree, legal background, there’s so many areas that we can use that that may not be essentially being a lawyer or being geared towards law, but like you said, Hey, I don’t have a medical degree, but that didn’t matter because you were still able to offer so much help to that organization that I just want, I think that that really is an important advice to offer to our listeners that you don’t need to stay on this path that maybe you think of, I need to do law, I can’t kind of veer elsewhere. And obviously, I think something really important to touch on is obviously now you are the Abba’s first Native American woman president, and that’s huge. And you have all these career changes that kind of helped you lead to become the person you are today. And I guess I’m just curious, is being the CEO of the Indian Health Service, did that experience push you towards doing any other career goal? Or I guess how did that kind of shape you now being in this role as the Abba’s president?

Mary Smith:

Well, I’ve been an A member since law school. I think the A reps came to law school, and I was just so proud to be a member of, it wasn’t even a question. It was like, of course I’m going to be a member of the American Bar Association, and I was always a member. But sometimes during parts of my career, particularly when I was in government, I won’t say that I was very active, but what happened was I had worked on so many different policy issues in the White House, including civil rights, domestic violence and sexual assault, native American issues, equal pay for women. And then following the White House, I worked at a very large law firm and I enjoyed my work. I was working on securities class actions and SEC investigations, but missed some of the policy areas that I had worked on.

And I was thinking about where can I do that? And that place was the American Bar Association. So I became very active and I actually joined the litigation section. I was doing litigation and then section of civil rights and social justice, so I was able to feed my policy aspirations in the section of civil rights and social justice. One of the first things I worked on was a voting rights resolution, and then in the litigation section, I joined the corporate council committee. I was trying to develop business at the law firm. So it served both of those purposes for me, and I just became very active in the A BA, because I really believe in all the work, great work that the A BA does. And so later I ran and was secretary for this association and following my time as secretary, I think part of the reason all of us become active in the A BA is that it’s a way to be part of something bigger than yourself, and you believe in helping the profession, helping young lawyers as they start their careers, all the great issues that we work on. And following my time as secretary, I thought that there was more that I wanted to do. There were more ways in which I wanted to help. And so I thought about running for president, and that’s what led me to that course.

Montana Funk:

I mean, that’s awesome. Now you’re here and obviously doing amazing work, and I’m so grateful that you’re on this episode with us to just provide the listeners your input and share your journey. And I do want to touch a little bit more on some of the work that you’ve done with the A BA and some challenges you faced in your career. So I think we’re going to jump to a quick break, but then when we come back, I do want to touch more on that. So before the break, we were discussing how you’re the ABAs first Native American women president. Kind of a two part question here. As a Native American woman in law, what are some of the challenges that you have continuously faced and seen throughout your career path? And then also incorporating those to the challenges of being this first Native American woman as an actual president. Can you kind of just explain to the listeners what those challenges are and how you’ve been able to overcome them?

Mary Smith:

Well, I think there’s challenges certainly for almost anyone in the law, whether it’s financial challenges or things that are going on at home, or maybe you’re a first generation lawyer, and then different particular challenges for people of color and for women and people with disabilities, L-G-B-T-Q. But for me, it’s interesting because when I started running for president, there haven’t been that many women presidents at all in the A’S history, and there hadn’t been a Native American woman. And actually some people told me to my face and then to others who were supporting me that I didn’t look like an A president.

Montana Funk:

Oh my

Mary Smith:

Gosh. When they questioned, I think things that are done to women a lot, whether can Mary speak up in a meeting? Is she having enough gravitas to talk to managing partners? And I think those kind of questions get asked probably more for women and people of color than for men sometimes. And I try to use that as a strength because now when I talk to students and younger people and groups of people of color, I tell them that story and then I say, I look exactly like what an A president should look like, and so do all of you. And so I hope that it gives people hope that if you have a passion or a dream, there may be people who doubt that you can do it, but surround yourself with people who are positive and who support you and follow your dream and use it as a way to motivate yourself.

Montana Funk:

I kind of love that you say, I look like an A president, right? So funny when I hear things, when people say stuff like that, because it’s like, what do you even mean by that? What do you even mean by you don’t look like an A president? It just sounds so silly. And the people who say that, I think you’re right, that really the only way you’re going to get through them is like, okay, well that’s not going to affect me. I’m going to come do this job and I’m going to be strong and powerful in it, and then I’m going to use that to pass on this message to other individuals. So I think that that is just, I mean, commend you for that. And it made me kind of giggle when you were like, I look an a b president because it’s so ridiculous in a sense.

That even has to be something you say, but it’s just sticking it to them in a way that just says, no matter who you are, no matter what our listeners position they’re in or how they’re feeling in their career, they really truly can be anything they want to be. And I think using people who are doubting them, as you said, kind of motivation to just be like, well, fine. If you’re going to doubt me, watch what I can do. I think that’s really powerful. So I commend you for that. And then something I do want to make sure that we touch base on as well is you had mentioned, just for clarification for our listeners, was that you talked to students, and I know that you’ve created a foundation called the Caroline and Aura Smith Foundation. So I know it’s not directly related to law, but can you just explain to our listeners what that is? I do think it is an important foundation. And even though it’s specifically in the area of law, I do think that there’s valuable lessons that you’re providing that can be applicable to anyone no matter what profession.

Mary Smith:

Well, similar to the reasons why I took the job at the Indian Health Service, like I said, I want to lift up and empower native communities. And when I was at the Indian Health Service, I realized how few Native Americans go into medicine or even information technology because the electronic health record is the glue that holds together a lot of healthcare now. And so when I left the Indian Health Service, I wanted to continue supporting native communities and native people, particularly native women. And like I said, my original career was in computer science in a STEM field. And so also my mom was my best friend, and I of course loved my grandmother and I wanted to honor them. So I created a foundation named through my mother and my grandmother, the Carolina Norris Smith Foundation to train Native American girls in stem. And so every summer we collaborate with the Chicago Public Schools, American Indian program, and we do a STEM summer camp in Chicago. We’ve done other virtual sessions and try to collaborate with other organizations. We’ve collaborated with some Native American museums as well. And it’s just a way for me to continue to do work and support the Native American community.

Montana Funk:

I think that that’s extremely important. And I mean, do you have any advice that you can offer companies or law firms or people who are listening who want to become, make sure that they do have increased efforts in diversity and equality in whether it be their firm or their company? What can you tell those listeners about how you can actually expand diversity and equality in the workplace?

Mary Smith:

Well, I mean the A BA, we would like to be a resource. We have a lot of materials as well. But I mean, I think it starts at the top and hopefully you have a culture that is an inclusive culture and is welcoming and to ensure that at every step of the process, you’re trying to create equal opportunity for everyone, whether it’s when you’re recruiting people for your company or your firm, how you’re doing evaluations, are you creating opportunities to go into the senior ranks at your organization? I mean, we look at the statistics and for decades, women have been 50% or even more than 50% of law school classes, but we still see decades later that women are still hovering around the 20% mark for equity partners and firms. And so obviously there’s some barriers there. And it’s working from, I think, an organizational perspective. Of course, everyone has to take charge of their own career, but I think sometimes we put too much of the onus on the individual, and there’s organizational and all and structural barriers that are preventing true equal opportunity for everyone.

Montana Funk:

I think that hopefully our listeners have the takeaway from here that well, in one, there’s so many areas that you can go into, as you said, and also how to just build a community wherever they’re working that is inclusive and allows people to feel like they have a home and a family, kind of like you said, like the A, BA, just you have people in your corner. And I’m hoping that that’s something that our listeners listening to this episode today just get some ideas about how they can make themselves feel strong and empowered, and they belong in any area, no matter what journey they take. So something I always want to ask as well, my guests, I think it’s just important and it’s a little bit easier of a question, is obviously you’ve had a huge journey throughout many different areas in your career. Is there any piece of advice that you can remember or that you’ve just learned that you could tell our listeners if you had one second to tell them one thing, what that would be?

Mary Smith:

I think be true to yourself, believe in yourself and seek out help and mentors and others who can help you along the way.

Montana Funk:

I think that that’s great, and I hope our listeners do do that. And like you said, be true to yourself and take risks and just I hope that our listeners feel comfortable to have fun in their career journey. Sometimes risks may not work out the way they planned, but like you said, there were so many opportunities that were opened up because you decided to take risks that maybe you wouldn’t have otherwise. So I really appreciate that. And the last question that I ask every guest, so it’s an easy one, you can breathe and just very simple, is where can our listeners find you?

Mary Smith:

Well, they can find me at the American Bar Association, but I’m on LinkedIn and Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and all of that too. So I’m always open. People do reach out to me, and I try to, if people reach out, for instance, I’ll give you a quick story. I was speaking at American University School of Law in Washington DC and then I had spoken to some students and I got in a Lyft ride back to the airport, and the driver says to me, oh, are you the A VA president? I don’t think are there cameras in here? You know that? But he was an LLM student from Cameroon at the school getting his LLM, but he hadn’t been able to attend my discussion with the students, but to earn extra money, he was driving as a Lyft driver, and I have stayed in touch with him. And even this week he has graduated. He has his LLM now, and he’s looking for a job. And course I’m willing to help him if I can. So just by a serendipitous meeting, he’s my driver. We have stayed in touch.

Montana Funk:

I love that. I mean, that just kind of goes back to you saying, look for mentors, right? And I appreciate that you’re willing to be a mentor to people like that, right? You find a Lyft driver and you’re like, wait a second. How do you know me? And then now you have this mentor relationship. So yeah, I mean, I think that that’s great. It’s also kind of a fun story, and I appreciate you sharing that, and I hope our listeners do take it seriously when you say that you can be reached out to, and you’ve just been awesome to have today offering so much advice. So thank you so much, Mary, for joining me.

Mary Smith:

Thank you for having me.

Montana Funk:

Listeners, that’s our show. Thank you as always for tuning in and you know that if you like what you heard today, we want you to recommend our show to a friend. As always, we can be found anywhere that you listen to podcasts. Thank you for joining us, and I hope that you enjoyed our discussion. Until next time, this is your host, Montana Funk, and you’ve been listening to Young Lawyer Rising, brought to you by the a Young Lawyers Division and the audio professionals at Legal Talk Network.