EP907- Meet Katie!

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heals in the Courtroom. We’re the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Heals in the Courtroom. I’m Liz Lenivy, and today I’m joined by Mary Simon, Elizabeth McNulty, and for the first time ever, Katie St. John. Welcome, Katie.

Mary Simon:

Thank

Elizabeth Lenivy:

You. Yay.

Mary Simon:

So happy you’re here, Katie. Well,

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Welcome Katie, and congratulations on completing your first week back at Simon as an attorney. It’s the end of your first week, right?

Katie St. John:

That’s right.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

All right. And how has week one been?

Katie St. John:

It’s been great. Diving right in and getting started, so super excited to be here.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yeah. I figured not much of a syllabus week. It sounds like you’ve already kind of been thrown into the deep end a little bit, which I’m sure is where you want to be.

Katie St. John:

Yes. All

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Right, Katie, why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Katie St. John:

Yes. So I was born and raised in St. Louis, Missouri. I went to Incarnate Ward Academy for high school, and then I graduated from Eastern Illinois University with a degree in history, and then went on to law school at St. Louis University and graduated in 2020. And I have three kiddos and married and I have a dog.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

What’s your dog’s name?

Katie St. John:

His name is Stanley.

Mary Simon:

Stanley. That’s such a good name.

Katie St. John:

What kind of dog? He’s an Aussie doodle.

Mary Simon:

I love how

Katie St. John:

None

Mary Simon:

Of us ask any questions about your kids. Or your

Katie St. John:

Husband. It’s okay. That’s normal. And then, so after graduating from law school, I started off on the defense side doing insurance defense and then have been doing plaintiff’s work for the last three years. Well,

Elizabeth Lenivy:

That’s great. And I didn’t realize you were an incarnate word graduate. My sister-in-law went there. So I’m not from St. Louis and I’ve gone to a couple happy hours this week and this has been the running joke. Where’d you go to high school question? And anyone who doesn’t live in St. Louis or has spent time in St. Louis, we have this weird obsession with where you went to high school. So you and my sister are fellow alumni of Incarnate Word.

Mary Simon:

Such a great basketball team.

Katie St. John:

Yes.

Mary Simon:

They actually started their winning

Katie St. John:

Streak when I was there.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Oh, really?

Mary Simon:

Yeah. Yeah. I just remember playing against them and they were always so good.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yeah. They had like 10 years undefeated or something crazy?

Mary Simon:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Okay. Let’s get back to talking about you, Katie, unless you would like this to be a high school girls back another day. So you mentioned that you started out at a defense firm when you graduated in 2020. Did anything else happen in the spring of 2020?

Katie St. John:

It was like a pandemic or something like that.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yeah. It’s so interesting to me because I was a 2015 law school grad and I still remember how important that first year and overwhelming that first year of practice was in just learning. I mean, it’s like a fire hose to the face where I feel like I got so much information and I learned so much. Frankly, I learned more about being a lawyer in the first year of practice than I felt that I did in three years of law school. So I remember looking at my law clerks who were graduating that spring with you, Katie. And I know that you were a law clerk here, but you were on a different team. So I didn’t know you personally at the time, but I remember my law clerks and just thinking, what are they going to do? I know they’ve got firm jobs. I know they’re lined up.

They’re incredibly bright. They’re going to be fine. But that first year is so important. I wonder what that’s going to be like for them. So if you could enlighten me on that of just what your first year of kind of being a Zoom lawyer was like.

Katie St. John:

Yeah. I mean, before that, obviously going to law school, you’re so excited to make it to the finish line and the graduation. And so we didn’t have an in- person graduation. So I remember that being kind of disappointing. I just felt like I didn’t … I don’t know. It was just like I didn’t get to cross the finish line. So that was a little bit weird. But in terms of going into practice, that’s when I started off at a defense firm. And first of all, the office was like a ghost town. So it was like me and the partners. And that was kind of helpful because I got more one-on-one time with them and was able to learn a lot from them while I was there. But everything was via Zoom. So I was attending hearings via Zoom. Obviously I’d never taken a deposition before and I think it was like maybe my second or third week there.

And the partner was like, it was an auto case. And he’s like, ” Yep, you’re taking the deposition. It’s via Zoom. Here you go. “And it was just, I remember me and my office by myself navigating my first deposition, but I learned a lot really quickly. Maybe I had a little bit more grace because you’re in between a screen every single time. But yeah, it was an interesting time for sure.

Mary Simon:

Having done both, did you like it better doing everything over Zoom or do you like it more in person?

Katie St. John:

Yeah. I mean, I think that I have realized now that certain things can be done via Zoom and it’d be fine, but there are other advantages sometimes to being in person.

Mary Simon:

Yeah. Because it’s always that, it’s that feeling where you graduate with your class, it’s like a big graduation day with everybody there. You get to hug everyone and your classmates and then you get to walk into the office on the first day. I just am trying to picture just not having … It’s almost just like a silent graduation or something.

Katie St. John:

Yeah. And it was weird because you buy all the graduation announcements and caps and gowns and all that before. So I had all of this graduation stuff and I was like, ” Don’t know what I’m going to do with all this.

Mary Simon:

“Sitting in your house

Katie St. John:

And

Elizabeth Lenivy:

You’re capping. All right. So you and I share a similar background in starting out at defense firms. And how long were you on the defense side before you began at a plaintiff’s?

Katie St. John:

So that was two years. Two years.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

2020 to

Katie St. John:

2022.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Okay. You put your time in. I mean, the running joke for me is that I was basically at a defense firm long enough for a cup of coffee and then I felt like I was back here. So I feel that having had that defense experience, I tried to draw on that for my plaintiff’s work. And I’m curious if you feel similarly.

Katie St. John:

Yeah. One of the biggest lessons I learned while being a defense attorney was time management, and that’s obviously because you’re doing billable hours, but kind of being able to manage how much time I’m spending on certain tasks because you know where those are going to fall out, what they may or may not, how many hours they may allow for that task. And so it taught me early on really great, in my opinion, time management skills. And so that’s kind of really benefited me on the plaintiff’s side and making sure that I’m making cost effective decisions for my clients, prioritizing the things that need to be prioritized to move the case forward, whether that be for like early resolution or trial. And so that’s something that I learned definitely being on the defense side. I was not a great billable hour person, honestly at first. It’s just like such a foreign concept, but I got the overall idea of time management for sure.

Mary Simon:

Why’d you make the switch over to plaintiff’s side, or how did that pan out?

Katie St. John:

Yeah, it’s actually funny you bring that up. So I was at dinner last night with another female attorney that I actually met while I was clerking here. Oh,

Mary Simon:

Nice.

Katie St. John:

And we were in the same little room and we became like best friends and we still are best friends now. And so we were talking about how when we both clerked here, it was just, I don’t know, the overall environment, the feeling that you got when you were doing plaintiff’s work, being amongst the lawyers at the Simon Law Firm, and how we both would always be like, ” We’re going to get back there. We’re going to come back to Simon Law. “Oh, nice. Yeah. And so when I got the opportunity to go to the plaintiff’s side, I wasn’t necessarily looking. Somebody had reached out. And so my name got recommended and then that’s how I knew I was going to get back on the plaintiff’s side. And then now here I am. It’s like a dream come true, full circle.

Mary Simon:

Did you find out you wanted to do plaintiff’s work after you clerked here? Was that your first time doing plaintiff’s work?

Katie St. John:

No, it wasn’t. I had clerked at one other place in law school my first year doing asbestos, plaintiff’s asbestos

Mary Simon:

Work,

Katie St. John:

But I don’t have any other family members that are lawyers in my family. So I didn’t really, when I started law school, quite frankly, didn’t know anything. I thought I wanted to be in family law. And

Mary Simon:

I love hearing attorney stories like that because I’m like the polar opposite and grew up going to depositions with my dad even when I didn’t want to. And I always think it’s so impressive, especially when attorneys who aren’t from St. Louis, and I’m talking like within 10 miles of where we are right now, making your own network, because I think it’s really, it’s hard to do in such a tight-knit community and it really gives, and to all of you around the table, I mean, it really just speaks volumes of the effort that you put in to build up your own practice and your own reputation in a community where … I mean, I grew up in it, right? But from my perspective, I think it’s hard sometimes to break through that barrier and like talk to the people who you know you might want to work with one day and stay in contact with them and keep staying in contact with them.

And you really have to be adamant about what your goals are to follow through on it. So I think that’s really impressive.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Katie, and I’m a first generation attorney as well, and I always like hearing from fellow first gen attorneys, just what happened in your life that made you want to do this?

Katie St. John:

Yeah. So actually when I was younger, my parents were going through a divorce and I remember my mom’s attorney being somebody that she just relied on she could go to and kind of helping my mom through every step of that process. And I was little, so I don’t remember much other than I remember the attorney. And so I had kind of always said like, oh, I want to be an attorney. And I think it was just because I realized that that was somebody who was a tremendous amount of help from my mom. But then when I was at incarnate, they had a career day and there was one, there was a room that had an attorney in it. And so I was like, “Oh, I’ll just go in there.” Well, of course I was the only one in there. Oh my gosh. And so it was just me and this attorney and she’s just like staring at me and after she gave her little talk, she’s like, “Are you Beth’s daughter?” And I was like, “I am.” And she was like, “Oh, I was your mom’s divorce attorney.” Oh, no way.

Yeah.

Mary Simon:

Oh, wild.

Katie St. John:

And so she had recognized me and we kind of caught up and we stayed in touch. And so then when I went to go apply to law school, I had reached out to her and she helped me through the application process, all that kind of explained what it was going to be like. And I didn’t ultimately obviously do any sort of family law at all, but that’s kind of where I got started. That is so cool.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Talk about a real full circle moment. That’s crazy.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I’m curious, this is something we’ve talked about before on the podcast. It sounds like you always wanted to be a lawyer, but if you weren’t a lawyer, what is something like a job you think you would be instead? I

Katie St. John:

Think I would probably end up being some type of teacher or professor or something like that.

Mary Simon:

And history background too,

Katie St. John:

That

Mary Simon:

Makes sense too.

Katie St. John:

When I went to Eastern Illinois, I was in the honors college and I produced a thesis on the development of children’s rights in the United States, but I loved the research. I had to do a ton of research, so I love the research aspect for sure. So I think that’s probably what it would be.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah, I’d say that’s pretty in line with what we do, honestly. I mean, we teach jurors how to do what we want them to do basically. So that makes sense.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Which is award justice.

Mary Simon:

Right. Right. Do the right

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Thing. Do the right thing, which that’s perfect segue into what I wanted to ask you about, Katie. Not that I don’t love learning about your background, but we’re all trial lawyers. We want to hear about the juicy stuff, the trial. Despite your very young age, you’ve already had quite a bit of trial success. So can you tell us about some of your trial experience?

Katie St. John:

Yes. So kind of going backwards, just recently in February, I tried a case in Madison County that was a two week medical malpractice suicide, wrongful death case.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Oh, wow.

Katie St. John:

And we got a plaintiff’s verdict for $1.1 million.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Do you mind just, I mean, my own sheer curiosity, but also whenever someone tells me about such a great result like that, I want to know what are the facts of the case? What happened?

Katie St. John:

Yes. And so that case was about a young man who struggled with an addiction to methamphetamine and had relapsed, went to Gateway Regional Medical Center because he was suicidal, hearing voices, paranoid seeing things. And he was forthcoming about all of that with his medical providers. He spent a few short hours in the emergency department. They never sent a psychiatrist to do any type of evaluation. They sent a nurse who was their behavioral health service technician. She did an evaluation and then gave him a Zyprexa and then discharged him a few hours later, sent him home. He went home with his wife and after a few hours of being home, committed suicide.

Mary Simon:

Wow.

Katie St. John:

That is so

Mary Simon:

Sad.

Katie St. John:

Very sad. Yeah. And he left behind one son, or his name is Austin. Wow.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Well, I mean, that’s a terribly sad case, but I feel like that’s oftentimes what happens with the kinds of cases that we handle, which is it’s a wonderful professional accomplishment. We all feel very proud of ourselves when we achieve that thing, but it always strikes me that it comes with tragedy for our clients. I’m so pleased to hear that you were able to get justice for this family and hopefully keep something like that from happening to another family. So let’s pivot then and tell us about your other big trial.

Katie St. John:

Yes. So I was a part of the trial team that tried the first necrotizing Enterocolitis lawsuit in St. Clair County, Illinois against Mead Johnson.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Okay. So for people who may be listening and are not familiar with that particular litigation, can you explain a little bit of the medicine or the science behind it?

Katie St. John:

Yes. I will do my best because there’s a lot there. But so essentially the case is against … This one was just against Mead Johnson, which is they manufacture premature infant formula. So we’re just talking about premature babies. And the premature infant formula increases the risk of a deadly disease called necrotizing enter colitis. The simplest way to kind of think about that is it basically messes up the gut biome and causes the gut to die. And these babies either have to go through a ton of medical care, treatment, surgeries. Some of them are able to survive and others pass away. And so the family that we represented in St. Clair County, there were twin boys and one of the twin boys got necrotizing entry colitis and he died.

Mary Simon:

Oh, wow. How long was the trial?

Katie St. John:

We built in a lot of time for jury selection. I want to say that was either, I think it was four weeks with jury selection. Wow. It’s like three or four weeks. I can’t remember.

Mary Simon:

How long was your other trial, the wrongful death case?

Katie St. John:

Two weeks. Oh,

Mary Simon:

Wow. Those are both pretty lengthy.

Katie St. John:

Yeah. I’ve really only had … That’s really all I’ve done.

Mary Simon:

Of the trials, they’ve all been like multi-week, very serious cases.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yes. And I don’t know if you mentioned this, but what was the verdict in that St. Clair County neck trial?

Katie St. John:

Yeah, that verdict was for 60 million. That’s incredible. Wow.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Is that one up on appeal right now or what? Yes. Okay. Okay. Well then we won’t ask too many questions just because obviously there’s still a lot of work I’m sure to be done in that case. Yes. And I think in a conversation you also mentioned to me that you had handled a trial on the defense side as well.

Katie St. John:

I did. Yes. It was a nursing home case. And it was interesting because it wasn’t a resident of the nursing home that we were defending. It was a visitor. He was there visiting his mom. Oh, interesting. Yeah. He was there and claimed that our CNA had asked him to help pick up his mom after she had fallen and in doing so, he sustained a back injury.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Okay. How long was that trial?

Katie St. John:

That one was probably about a week.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Okay. And I’m going to guess it was a defense verdict. It was. Okay.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I’m shocked.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yeah. I know this is an audio medium, but collectively, the other three of us just looked around and we’re like, oh, that sounds like a tough case from the plaintiff’s side.

Mary Simon:

What do you like about being in the courtroom? What draws you to it?

Katie St. John:

I mean, I like to talk. I like to talk through things. I think that’s helpful. But I think being able to fully or attempt to at least fully explain my position and then being able to back it up with whatever that may look like, depending on the situation kind of excites me. I’m real type A, real organized. And so in terms of arguing, I don’t know, it just makes sense to me. It’s easy for me to kind of …

Mary Simon:

Like structure. Yes.

Katie St. John:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Simon:

Makes sense.

Katie St. John:

Yeah. I’m sure my husband hates it.

Mary Simon:

Right.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

We call that lawyer brain. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

Mary Simon:

And- Can I ask what … This is such a classic whatever. I’m just going to ask it. What’s your sign?

Elizabeth Lenivy:

A Scorpio.

Mary Simon:

A Scorpio. Okay. Interesting.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Does that mean something to you? Well, she said type A and was

Mary Simon:

Describing a lot of things and I’m like, I wonder if she’s a Virgo too, but

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Scorpio. I don’t know what any of that … I know I’m a Gemini, but it’s-

Mary Simon:

Okay. Do you know your Myers Briggs?

Katie St. John:

You had to do that here as a clerk. Yeah.

Mary Simon:

Oh, were you here when we did that?

Katie St. John:

Yeah.

Mary Simon:

Fun. What was yours?

Katie St. John:

I don’t remember.

Mary Simon:

You’ll have to do it again. We’ll have to talk about that sometime.

Katie St. John:

Do you remember yours?

Mary Simon:

Yes.

Katie St. John:

What are

Mary Simon:

You? INFJs always remember what they are.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I’m an ISTJ.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I know I’m an I. Sure. I know I’m an I. And

Mary Simon:

Angela was an I, an

Elizabeth Lenivy:

FJ and so was my dad. And this I can ask. Do you feel introverted or extroverted?

Mary Simon:

Extroverted.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Okay, good. We’ve got an extrovert on the podcast

Elizabeth McNulty:

Now. Are you an I? Yes,

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I’m an I. Are you an I?

Elizabeth McNulty:

I think that thing is so misleading though, I versus E, because it just depends on where you get your energy from. Does it deplete you or does it add to you? It doesn’t mean like, can you go work a room?

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Oh, right. Right.

Elizabeth McNulty:

No, I know. I just think that it’s very misconstrued, but I kind of- Oh, I see what

Mary Simon:

You’re saying. It’s like being around people, does that make you go more like you need to go sit by yourself and go to sleep? Or does that energize you to … Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I’m an I. Even by that, all the way.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I remember I. There was no, “Oh, you’re kind of on the border.” No, no, no, no. I very much get tired from having to be in any social interaction. Not that I don’t love my friends or love meeting new people. It’s all great, but man, I need a nap afterwards.

Mary Simon:

But see, it is interesting though, because that even goes back to the point where Katie was talking about being first gen lawyer. It’s like you have to be … I mean, you have to be putting yourself out there and in social situations and in networking rooms. And that has to be exhausting, especially for someone that drains them.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

It’s exhausting. And I’ve also found that it’s a muscle that I’ve had to learn. Because again, not only first generation lawyer, I was the first person on my dad’s side to go to college. And frankly, going through the process of applying for college and then applying for law school, I really felt like I was flying blind. And I didn’t know any lawyers till I got to college and I had a professor. I had a couple professors who were lawyers, but I’ve just kind of been winging it. It’s worked out for me so far. I think I’m okay.

Katie St. John:

Where did you go to law school is?

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Slow.

Katie St. John:

Oh, okay. So I remember even whenever I started at Sliw, just for the first time being immersed in St. Louis where Mary, you were kind of saying is such a tight-knit legal community and they say that, but as somebody who’s like a complete almost outsider, you don’t really know what that means until you start going to these different law school events or seeing names and kind of like getting thrown into the law school world. It’s a little intimidating. And there’s just some families that are just well known lawyers in St. Louis. And I was just like, ” I don’t know any of these people, but I’m just going to go for it.

Mary Simon:

“What’s your biggest piece of advice to anyone who’s listening that’s in those shoes even right now, who’s in law school and is like, ” I have no idea where my starting point is.

Katie St. John:

“I think it’s super important to understand your why and what you’re passionate about and that is what will push you through any intimidating or uncomfortable situation if you kind of have your eye set on a certain goal or your mind set on a certain goal, just what your why is. I think that’s how I kept pushing myself out there.

Mary Simon:

Yeah, I really like that.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Well, that then begs the question, what’s your why?

Katie St. John:

Yeah. So I will say it was really first kind of fostered and developed, even clerking at the Simon Law Firm. And I clerked for Kevin and Pat and they were very much so kind of let me dig into the files, get to know these clients, sit in on depositions, whatever I wanted to do and seeing how they were able to pursue a case on their behalf to get justice for these people was eye-opening and amazing, but also just being able to comfort them, walk them through the process because this is also a lawsuit is an intimidating process for somebody who has won, something tragic has happened, but also many times have not been in these shoes before. I just remember being like, ” This is so cool.This is amazing. This is what I want to do for other people.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

“I feel the same. This is very interesting work, but what a privilege it is that we get to do this. Katie, I think that that’s a perfect place to end this episode. And I feel like I know so much more about you, but I’m excited to learn more as we continue to record episodes and as you continue to work here. And congratulations on coming back and on completing your first meeting.

Mary Simon:

We’re so happy you’re here.

Katie St. John:

Yes. Thank you. I’m excited to join the team.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

And if you want to reach out to Katie or any of us here, you can contact us at heelsinthecourtroom.law. Remember new episodes drop every other Wednesday. Thanks so much guys. Bye.

Announcer:

Thanks for listening to Heals in the Courtroom. At the Simon Law Firm, we know that trial success isn’t just about experience. It’s about strategy, resources, and the power of collaboration. That’s why attorneys across the country partner with us to strengthen their cases and deliver justice for their clients. If you’re interested in working with our team of seasoned trial lawyers, call 314-241-2929. And if you enjoyed the podcast, be sure to subscribe and send us your thoughts at heelsinthecourtroom.Law.

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