Inside Human Trafficking: Sex & Labor Trafficking, and the Fight to Protect Victims

Episode Notes

Transcript

Bridgette Carr:

And in order for traffickers to be successful, they need to turn humans into commodities. And sadly, our willingness to accept that othering makes turning humans into commodities quite easy. If traffickers can convince us that someone is an other, for whatever reason, immigration status, skin color, then we’re much more likely to accept things happening to them that we wouldn’t allow to happen to ourselves or folks that we call in our group or us. I wish that I had the answer for how to convince people every human inherently has dignity. That makes us all us. And to really resist that. Quick slide to dehumanize folks,

Announcer:

Welcome to the award-winning podcast, Lawyer 2 Lawyer with J. Craig Williams, bringing you the latest legal news and observations with the leading experts in the legal profession. You are listening to Legal Talk Network

J. Craig Williams:

I’m Craig Williams, coming to you from Southern California. I occasionally write a blog named May I please the court and have three books out titled How To Get Sued the Sled and My newest book. How would You Decide 10 famous Trials That Changed History? You can find all three on Amazon. In addition, our new podcast miniseries in Dispute, 10 famous trials that changed history is currently featured here on the Legal Talk Network and on your favorite podcasting app. Just a note in the latest in dispute episodes spotlighting the trial of Jesus Christ will be available on Tuesday, March 18th. You won’t want to miss it. Every year, millions of men, women, and children, are trafficked worldwide, including right here in the United States. According to the Department of Homeland Security, one definition of human trafficking is defined as the use of force fraud or coercion to obtain some type of labor or commercial sex act today on Lawyer 2 Lawyer, we’ll talk about different types of human trafficking, how it happens, how to recognize it, and what’s being done to combat trafficking.

And to help us better understand today’s topic, we’re joined by returning guest Bridgette A. Carr clinical professor of law and co-director of Human Trafficking and Immigration Clinic at the University of Michigan Law School. Bridgette was our guest approximately 10 years ago. On this podcast, Bridgette has dedicated her career to advocating for rights of human trafficking victims and advancing comprehensive domestic and international trafficking policies. Carr regularly provides human trafficking training to law enforcement, government officials and healthcare providers, as well as consultations to state and national authorities on the issue of human trafficking, Bridgette has also served as a consultant to the United Nations office on Drugs and Crime, the UN agency focused on criminal justice for victims of human trafficking and migrant smuggling. Welcome back to the show, Bridgette.

Bridgette Carr:

Thanks for having me.

J. Craig Williams:

Well, before we get started, let’s go over your background one more time so our listeners can understand a little bit more about you. How did you become interested in advocating for the rights of human trafficking victims?

Bridgette Carr:

Well, I’d love to tell you that it was a super intentional study on my part that the reality is it was quite a fluke. I actually thought I was going to be a doctor, first generation college student from northern Indiana, and I ended up in law school and then thought I was going to do a certain area of law, but got a call one day about the first ever federally prosecuted human trafficking case in Michigan, and first said no, that I wasn’t going to help on it, and then said yes, and then those of us who worked on that case kind of got thrown into the deep end of human trafficking law because we were the first to work on such a case. So it sort of started from there.

J. Craig Williams:

Well, tell us about your current role as co-director of the Human Trafficking and Immigration Clinic at the University of Michigan Law School. What do you do? What do your students do?

Bridgette Carr:

Yes, so I started the clinic in 2009. It was the first of its kind nationally, and it really is such a joy for me. I have the best job in the world, I think because I get to both support survivors of human trafficking for free and meet their legal needs while at the same time educating Michigan law students on how to be good lawyers. And so students enroll in my course, it’s seven credits, and their job in my course, it’s a lot like residency in medical school, is to stand in my shoes and practice law as if they were me with my oversight. And so in doing that, I’m kind of able to multiply myself a bunch and get really smart law students out there helping people who need the help. And so it’s the gift of my lifetime to be able to do this work.

J. Craig Williams:

Well, that’s fantastic. Let’s start first with the definition of human trafficking. Really, what is it?

Bridgette Carr:

Yeah. So human trafficking is when an individual is compelled into service, and those two words are super important. Now, lawyers make the definition much longer, but really the question is, is someone compelled either because they’re young and they’re being sold for sex or because they’re a child or an adult in any other type of labor situation and through force or fraud or coercion, they’re being put into service for someone else’s profit. And that service can be working at a summer carnival doing landscaping or in the commercial sex industry, really we can find human trafficking almost anywhere.

J. Craig Williams:

Human trafficking seems to be a bit of a new word. Is it equivalent to slavery or how does slavery differ?

Bridgette Carr:

Right. So the origins of the human trafficking law come out of anti-slavery laws. It’s actually a really interesting Michigan connection or maybe interesting if you’re a law nerd like I am. So we have the amendment against slavery, and then we had laws against debt peonage, and then we had a law against servitude, which we still have. And then there was a famous US Supreme Court case called us versus Ks Minsky, which came out of Chelsea, Michigan. Actually, it’s not far from where I live now. And in that case, the question was whether if you hold someone in involuntary servitude but only use psychological coercion, meaning you don’t beat them, you don’t physically restrict their movement, meaning you don’t use force or fraud, just that coercion piece, can it still be involuntary servitude? And the court actually said, no, involuntary servitude requires force or fraud. And so Congress said, wait a second. We don’t want people held in this type of thing like debt phage, like slavery, like involuntary servitude, even if only psychological coercion is used. And so the trafficking act was written in a direct response to us versus K Minsky where the court said, well, this law doesn’t go far enough. And Congress said, we want to make sure that people are protected, whether it’s via force, via fraud, or via psychological coercion.

J. Craig Williams:

What is it that leads to human trafficking? How do people fall into it? What are the circumstances that exist that create such a, I mean, you would imagine that most people would say, no, leave me alone. How do they get trapped into this?

Bridgette Carr:

Well, if you believe popular culture narratives of human trafficking, then we would think that people would say, no, leave me alone. Because those narratives tell us that trafficking occurs by people being snatched or a stranger, but that’s not the reality of human trafficking. Almost all of my clients were trafficked by someone they knew or trusted. Trafficking is a crime of relationship. And so it happens that traffickers really prey on people’s most basic needs, whether it’s they want an education somewhere, whether they need to make more money to survive, or whether it’s they’re searching for an attachment that they’re lonely and they want someone to love them. And if traffickers meet those needs, if someone was meeting those needs for you, Craig, it’s likely that if they said to you, Hey, now let’s go do this thing together, you might be much more likely to say yes.

J. Craig Williams:

So you fall victim because you’re not aware,

Bridgette Carr:

Right? Or you’re aware that what you’re doing may not actually be legal or you don’t even like it, but you want to meet the needs that the person you’re with is asking you to meet. So in sex trafficking situations, sometimes it’s that they say, well, look, if you sell yourself for this money, we can build this life together. Or in labor trafficking situations, it’s, look, you want to feed your family, I will take you to the United States. I’ll take 80% of what you make, but you can send back 20% to your family, and that’s illegal under US law. You can’t pay people those low rates like I just described. But for some people, it’s either the best deal they can make in the situation that they’re in or they’re brought somewhere under false pretenses or they care about someone and they want to build a life together.

J. Craig Williams:

Are human traffickers the people that cause this to happen? Are they necessarily evil people or is this just a side of human life that this is the way I make money?

Bridgette Carr:

That is a tough question. I definitely have encountered some traffickers where it feels like complete and total evil. Other times, it feels like people trying to make money in our economic system and taking it too far. I think we have to recognize that at its core, trafficking is about this ability for people to profit and how far they’re willing to target someone’s vulnerability, whether that vulnerability is an immigration status, lack of education being in a foreign country or an attachment issue, and how willing they are to let someone exploit that vulnerability for profit.

J. Craig Williams:

How do you recognize human trafficking? Meaning I’m sitting in a restaurant somewhere, how am I supposed to understand what’s going on?

Bridgette Carr:

So you aren’t, and this is where I get very frustrated by so many of the awareness campaigns around trafficking. I actually am an expert in human trafficking. I have been somewhere at a restaurant where I witnessed human trafficking. I called law enforcement. They were not responsive. Two years later, that very thing that I observed was disrupted by federal law enforcement. I only know about it because I’m in connection with those folks and I was able to say, Hey, I called on this date about this very thing. But the reality is that for most people walking around, you’re not going to recognize and say, oh, this is human trafficking. You may recognize if you’re a healthcare provider or a teacher or other folks who are used to doing mandatory, mandatory reporting about abuse, you may recognize something as abusive. You see a power differential that’s extreme. You wonder why if you’re getting your nails done, you have to take all the money, including the tips up to the man at the cashier in the front, and you can’t tip the person who actually did your nails. Those are all things I would wonder about, but I think it is really unfortunate that we have talked about human trafficking in this narrative as if we should embolden everyone walking around to be an identifier of human trafficking.

J. Craig Williams:

Well, even if we were beyond the power differential and the obvious things like you are not able to deal directly with that person on a monetary basis, what are the other signs of human trafficking that we might recognize?

Bridgette Carr:

Well, I don’t think people, like when I talk about the other signs, one thing we should say is if we are always seeking things at the lowest price possible for the goods and services we consume, where do we think that pressure is being put? And in many times, that pressure is being put on the workers’ wages to be lower or non-existent. And that doesn’t make people feel they want me to come up onto these shows and say, Hey, don’t buy sex or don’t go to this one restaurant or don’t hire this one group of landscapers. But all of us have to own what it means when we are seeking out extremely low prices, where is that low price? Who’s paying that low price is really what I have to say. Now, it doesn’t mean a price is always an indicator, but I think that when you see globally how we have outsourced so much of the manufacturing of the goods we consume, and when you look at the pay rates in those countries and how much exploitation is happening in those countries, I think it’s a conversation we often don’t have about trafficking at all, is really the consumption that all of us create that want cheap goods.

J. Craig Williams:

Well, Bridgette, we need to talk about that a lot further, but at this time, we’re going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors. We’ll be right back and welcome back to Lawyer 2 Lawyer. I’m joined by Professor Bridgette Carr. She is the co-director of Human Trafficking and Immigration Clinic at the University of Michigan Law School. We’ve been talking about the kind of price pressures that we as individuals all as a society put on trafficking as a consequence of demanding low prices. So am I supposed to buy the more expensive item?

Bridgette Carr:

That’s definitely not my position. I can’t afford to buy the most expensive item of all the things I consume, but I think it’s more a recognition that thinking about human trafficking and wanting to be aware of human trafficking is less about reading signs in an airport that tell you to look for kids who look afraid. Because honestly, when I traveled with my kids and they were younger, they looked scared. They were holding my hand, they didn’t talk to other adults, but instead of recognizing that human trafficking is embedded in our economic systems, I mean, I can go to the grocery store to buy eggs and the eggs will tell me how much square footage each chicken had available to itself. I mean, not that extreme, but this idea, is it cage-free? Are they free range? But we have no national conversation happening about farm workers, how they’re treated, who’s collecting the eggs, how are they treated, what’s their pay rate? And so I would just like the narrative about workers, even in just the agricultural context to be the equivalent that we have about eggs we consume or how cows are treated. We have completely ignored the humanity in the processes of the creation of the goods and services we consume. And I feel like it is the work of my lifetime to try to get it recognized that humans are part of all these processes.

J. Craig Williams:

You’ve mentioned that it’s taking your lifetime and you’ve duplicated yourself with other students, but how do we create this knowledge? I mean, we have knowledge about blood diamonds and other types of things that affect human lives and the type of lives that we’re affecting by buying things. But what is needed to create that kind of a database so that we understand we are buying items that are created through human trafficking? Where can we do that?

Bridgette Carr:

Craig, you are asking the question I ask myself every single day. I mean, I think one of the issues is that so many of the narratives about human trafficking, which includes both sex trafficking and labor trafficking, but really most of the conversations around human trafficking center solely on sex. And I can see why there are lots of reasons why, but also often the unspoken reason why is that most of us can go, I don’t buy sex. I assume I don’t know anyone who buys sex, and therefore I can point out a grave human rights violation and have no culpability in it. I can feel good about myself in acting against it and know that I’m not creating a demand for it. But that’s simply not true. On the labor trafficking side, all of us are culpable. I am culpable. And so I think part of the dilemma in the human trafficking space is that we’re in some ways competing labor trafficking victims are competing with space in people’s minds against sex trafficking victims. And gosh, it’s just a lot easier in so many ways to think solely about sex trafficking.

J. Craig Williams:

Well, part of the thing that goes on at least here in the United States is underage marriage. Let’s talk about that.

Bridgette Carr:

So it’s the US and globally there is significant rates, often more so in other countries of underage marriage or forced marriage that is recognized as human trafficking. We’ve worked on cases like that. The cases we’ve worked on have all involved foreign nationals, but we’re definitely aware that it is a US phenomenon as well. I think there you see it Now, you may wonder, well, Bridgette, you told me this is compelled service where someone’s vulnerability is taken to account for someone to profit off of. Where’s a profit in marriage? Well, when we frame those cases, we really look at them as labor trafficking cases and effectively say that someone is using the relationship of marriage to replace having a cook and a house cleaner and whatnot. And so they’re getting that commercial value out of that relationship.

J. Craig Williams:

There’s commercial relationships, there’s sexual relationships, there’s labor, and we have some pretty high profile cases with potentially Sean Diddy Combs and the Tate brothers and trafficking. Let’s talk about that kind of enforcement and what you’ve done with enforcement to train them about human trafficking.

Bridgette Carr:

Yeah, this is a really interesting time in the anti-trafficking space. In the past few years, we’ve seen civil liability cases move really beyond direct perpetrators into financial institutions like the case against JP Morgan Chase and Deutsche Bank for banking, Jeffrey Epstein. We’re seeing interesting little litigation against hotels. And then now we’re seeing cases both criminal and some civil cases against the Tate brothers, Sean Diddy Combs. We have Vince McMahon, the former head of the WWE. So yeah, there’s more interest in doing civil filings and some criminal filings against high profile individuals. I think this is a reality that the law is still quite new. I mean, it was passed in 2000 2025. The law is only 25 years old and folks are still really figuring out how to apply it. I think it’s exciting to see where the law can be used. I think it’s essential that we recognize the difference between sex trafficking and sexual abuse.

What I really am interested, or in cases like there’s a case in the UK against the Herod’s company for the abuse of the Alpha Ed brothers. I think in all of those cases, what’s so important is that many individuals are using systems or companies to help them do their trafficking and having a pretty significant financial benefit. And so it’s really trafficking law that can go beyond the abuse and into the financial element and say, yes, it’s really bad that you abuse someone. It’s horrible, but also in addition, you profited off of them and we’ve got to return that profit to the people who are victimized.

J. Craig Williams:

Let’s take a look at this from a very broad perspective. You’ve acted as a consultancy in the United Nations office on drug and crime regarding human trafficking. Tell us about your experience there and how this permeates through the world.

Bridgette Carr:

So my work there was really working on a database of trafficking cases to try to make them more publicly available for lawyers around the globe. And I think what’s important is that our laws generally don’t cross borders, but traffickers do all of the time. And so we’ve worked on cases unsuccessfully, worked on a number of cases, I say unsuccessfully because we haven’t been able to stop it, but involving workers from South Africa that are brought here to work in the summer carnivals that come to our towns throughout all of Michigan in the summer. And what was particularly disheartening about the work on that case is that we could easily see it was trafficking. There were lots of things we could do in the US if someone wanted to stay here to protect them, but for the individuals who wanted to return home, we couldn’t protect them for how the traffickers were really going to harm them once they got back and harm them financially.

And so it became so clear to us that while the US law was extremely powerful, it’s only powerful within our borders. And if these foreign national victims who brought here wanted to go home, which they wanted to do, we wanted them to do because they wanted to go, there was nothing we could do for them. And so I think the work of the UN and others working on these cases is really trying to recognize that especially for trafficking victims who are moved to other nations, we have to figure out cross border and global options for them because traffickers really don’t care about borders. They’re going to cross ’em, they’re going to bring people back, but our legal solutions and our protection mechanisms are extremely limited by borders.

J. Craig Williams:

Exactly. So Bridgette, we’re going to take a quick break to hear another word from our sponsors. We’ll be right back and welcome back to Lawyer 2 Lawyer. I’m back with Professor Bridgette Carr, co-director of the Human Trafficking and Immigration Clinic at the University of Michigan Law School. One thing that jumps out to me as we’ve had this discussion is why is society so tolerant of buying low cost items and kind of looking the other way when we potentially see this happening? What’s going on?

Bridgette Carr:

Well, I think the reality is that as a society, maybe as a world, we are very quick to dehumanize people who aren’t like us. And you see that in narratives happening politically right now. And that first step, that first step of dehumanization making someone the other, whether it’s because of their immigration status, because of their skin color, because of their education level, that’s how dehumanization starts. And in order for traffickers to be successful, they need to turn humans into commodities. And sadly, our willingness to accept that othering makes turning humans into commodities quite easy. If traffickers can convince us that someone is an other, for whatever reason, immigration status, skin color, race or education wealth level, then we’re much more likely to accept things happening to them that we wouldn’t allow to happen to ourselves or folks that we call in our group or us. I wish that I had the answer for how to convince people that every human inherently has dignity that makes us all us, and to really resist that quick slide that all of us go into dehumanize folks, but I haven’t figured that one out.

J. Craig Williams:

That was really my next question and one that’s been gnawing at me as we’ve had this conversation. How do we make people care?

Bridgette Carr:

Yeah, I wish people would care because it’s happening to other people, but I think that to often our brains move into a narrative of scarcity rather than abundance. And when we live in scarcity, we are really living in a place where others can be our enemies because we think that if they get something, we get something less. And when we live in that space of scarcity, we often can’t or don’t have the capacity to be concerned about others. And so I’m very sympathetic to folks living in actual scarcity or perceived scarcity because it is a very tough mindset to live in. But I think until we can move away from an us versus them system, traffickers really will have the upper hand.

J. Craig Williams:

There is an us versus them, and that’s kind of the lead into this next question, does this happen to us? I mean, there’s a question about how do we prevent this from happening to our loved ones, but does it happen to our loved ones or are we just looking at it from the standpoint of, oh, it happens to other people and it’s never going to happen to me like you always see on the news, not in my neighborhood. Wow, this is really different.

Bridgette Carr:

So I think that there are tons of myths out there about trafficking that are never going to happen to the folks listening or their families. I have been asked on so many podcasts of whether I’m worried about my children, especially my daughter walking in a target parking lot, the implication being that she’s going to be snatched by a white van. Now I worry about her working in the parking lot. I think she might get hit by a car, but that is my only worry. And so I think that folks spend so much time worrying about spring break to Mexico. Is someone going to be snatched? Is someone going to go to the mall and be snatched? And maybe there’s some solace in this very stranger danger narrative, like this idea that the bad guys are over there and they’ll come in white vans and they’ll wear masks and we’ll know how easily to see them.

But the reality is that trafficking happens by people who we know and trust, and they’re looking for vulnerabilities. And so whether that vulnerability is a lack of attachment or you’re coming out of foster care or you have a substance abuse issue, and so I think can happen to us, of course it can. But also if you’re someone who has a strong safety net, people around you who care deeply about you and are engaged with you and connected with you, then the likelihood is not. If you have US citizenship status and you have access to our education system and you don’t have a substance abuse issue, the same very non-sexy, non-popular issues that so many communities are grappling with, how do we make sure people can get jobs that have good wages? How do we make sure that everyone has a roof over the head and food and the support that they need? That’s really anti-trafficking work. At the end of the day, it’s not interesting or it’s not making the headlines, but if everyone had a stable job, a roof over their head and got to spend time with people who they love and love them, it would be much harder for traffickers to traffic people.

J. Craig Williams:

We have a unique opportunity here because you were on the show in 2012. Let’s do a check-in. What’s happened since then? Have we had success? Have we had losses? Is it better or is it worse?

Bridgette Carr:

I think there have been some really important successes since the last time I was on the show in 2012. We are really trying to hold big systems financially accountable in civil litigation. I think we’ve seen some really important work being done at the state level and recognizing that certain people in the commercial sex industry aren’t there by choice and that we shouldn’t charge them with prostitution or solicitation or any other type of crime, and that instead we should try to support and help them. So I think those are all really, really good steps forward. I think the reality is that we’re probably in the same place with this narrative of us versus them and thinking that trafficking is about people being snatched and not recognizing our own culpability when we consume goods and services. Yeah, I’m a professor. I would give us a C. I would give us a C. We’ve done some good things, but we’re really failing on some other things.

J. Craig Williams:

What can we do better?

Bridgette Carr:

You know what I think the best anti-trafficking work is investing in your own community, making human connections, making sure your neighbors don’t feel alone advocating for affordable housing, trying to pay people well, trying to, if you employ people, one thing I do, which is not a huge thing, but I try to use the thrift store as often as possible, whether it’s furniture or clothes, it’s good for the environment. It also means I’m not asking another worker in a garment factor in India to work 18 hours in a day to make a new pair of clothes for me. So yeah, I mean it’s small things. And then I think the biggest thing is try to see the full humanity in every person you encounter in the day. It’s both my professional goal, but also my parenting and personal goal is that if I can see the full humanity in whoever is sitting across from me, and sometimes that is hard. I’m a lawyer, I sit across from a lot of other lawyers, but if I can do that, then I am really pushing back on the thing traffickers need most, which is for me not to see every person’s full humanity.

J. Craig Williams:

That sounds like a tough thing to do. Well, Bridgette, we’ve just about reached the end of our programs. It’s time to wrap up and get your final thoughts about this and maybe your contact information to let our listeners reach out to you and see if they can get involved with your clinic in Michigan.

Bridgette Carr:

Yes, so I just want to encourage folks to support the great work that clinics around the country, not just mine, are doing to offer free legal services to those who need it. My clinic is one of 19 at Michigan’s Law School and almost every law school around the country has law students doing free and excellent work on behalf of those who couldn’t otherwise access justice. And so if you have dollars to spare, sending them to your local law school clinic will go very far in helping those who need help.

J. Craig Williams:

How about lawyers volunteering?

Bridgette Carr:

Yeah, we have worked with some amazing lawyers who have helped us, whether we pass cases off to them or we’ve trained them in how to do cases. Again, I think reach out to folks doing this work in your community is the best thing I can say. Also, talk to your local bar association. Many have fantastic anti-trafficking or even expungement workshops because we find one of the biggest impact for our US citizen clients is to get their criminal record cleaned up. And so if any of that interests you, I’m sure there’s something in your region doing that work.

J. Craig Williams:

Well, I guess one last question for you, Bridgette. Can you give us a individual story of someone that has gone through sex or labor trafficking that you’ve been able to help out and how they’ve turned their life around?

Bridgette Carr:

I’d be happy to share a story. A number of years ago, we represented young men who are brought to the US and forced to play basketball. And you may say, well, I would love to do that. I’d love to play basketball all the time. But these individuals were forced to play for lots of hours every day and limited food, limited freedom of movement, and so we were able to, they able to get out of that situation with law enforcement help, and they were brought to Michigan and resettled here, and we were representing them. They were hilarious teenagers when we first started working with them. They were also scared and afraid, and over time we could see them really gaining their confidence as they got their immigration status. And then we helped them apply to college and one of them went to the University of Michigan, and I’ll never forget the moment when I knew they had fully transitioned into being true sort of teenagers in the us.

They emailed me completely at the last minute and said that they needed me to fill out a form for them and that it was due later that evening, and they had just simply forgot about it. I got such joy out of that moment because it is something my own children would do. Wait till the last minute, not plan ahead. But what it showed me is that the fear and worry about their experience and whether they would be safe and whether they would be taken care of was gone because they were behaving just the way my students behave at times. And so that brought me such joy to think about them on college campuses knowing that they were just like us. They had become us. They were no longer them. I loved that. I loved that for them. I also loved that I saw this one of the students a couple of times when I walked across campus, and it took every ounce of my willpower, not to squeal when I saw him and be so excited for him and happy for him, but gosh, what a gift. To work on a case to help someone, and then to see them walking on your own college campus and to know that they were getting to access this education that was just completely unattainable to them. Just a few years prior, I opened by saying, I have the best job in the world, and I really do. Every case is a gift. Working with students is a gift. Getting to have these kinds of conversations are such a gift.

J. Craig Williams:

Wow, that’s great. Thank you for your fine work, Bridgette. We really appreciate it. And as we wrap up, I’d like to thank you for being with us today. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show.

Bridgette Carr:

Thanks for having me.

J. Craig Williams:

If you’ve liked what you heard today, please rate us on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcasting app. You can also visit us at legaltalknetwork.com where you can sign up for our newsletter. I’m Craig Williams. Thanks for listening. Please join us next time for another great legal topic. Remember, when you want legal, think Lawyer 2 Lawyer.

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