When Undocumented Immigrants Are Hurt at Work

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Workers Comp Matters, the podcast dedicated to the laws, the landmark cases, and the people that make up the diverse world of workers compensation. Here are your hosts, Jud and Alan Pierce.

Alan Pierce:

Welcome to Workers Comp Matters. Today we’re going to be talking about undocumented workers and the current issues that surround workers who are working without proper documentation, and more specifically, what happens to these workers if they get injured at work and have to deal with the workers’ compensation system given the current political climate with respect to ice and deportations and the widespread fear that has sort of gripped the immigrant community and others as we try to navigate difficult times. So our guest today is Enrique Flores, who is an attorney that Jud is going to tell us something about before we get to our interview with Enrique.

Judson Pierce:

Yeah, thank you. Alan. Enrique concentrates his practice in the areas of wrongful death, personal injury, workers’ compensation, as well as mediations. His law firm is the Flores Law Group. He practices out of Indianapolis, Indiana. He currently serves as the chair of workers’ injury Law and Advocacy group’s, injured Immigrant Workers’ Rights committee and is a member of the board of directors of the Indiana Trial Lawyers Association. Also a member of the Indiana Bar and a former chair of the Indianapolis Bar Association’s litigation section. So welcome, Enrique. Thanks for joining us.

Enrique S. Flores:

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Alan Pierce:

Enrique. I think you would be the first to agree that we are in unprecedented times and perhaps in many ways uncharted waters. So from your perspective as an advocate for workers in general and immigrant workers in more specifics, give us an idea of what the current landscape is for those of our community here in this country that are working but are from another country and may not have the proper documentation, green card, et cetera.

Enrique S. Flores:

I can tell you that it is unprecedented. The immigrant community has had to live almost trying to be invisible, just blending into the background, trying to be as helpful and as they can be, and leading a life that won’t attract any unwanted attention from any of the authorities. So usually, and I can tell you from being a son of immigrant parents, that is a reality. There was always the caution and a little bit of fear of saying, well, will this be the day that I might be detained and thrown back? But now it is more of it could happen and it’s been happening at any time where people are just trying to go to the grocery store, people are trying to go to church school and those places that used to be safe are not anymore. So there is nowhere to be safe at this point. So it is unsettling. I have heard it from my clients. They call me, they ask me all these questions. Some of ’em don’t even want to go to work because of this. So this fear of families being separated of losing what they’ve been working so hard to build, that is something that is very real now that it wasn’t even in the first Trump presidency.

Alan Pierce:

Right. And of course we have to recognize and differentiate the people that might be in this country, that are criminals, that are exhibiting criminal behavior, that are gang members, however you define that, and are worthy subjects of deportation always have been forgetting who is the chief executive of the country. But from my perspective, and probably more so from yours, is that the majority, vast majority of people that are in this country from another country just here working hard, trying to just make a better life for them and their kids and not engaging in that type of behavior that would normally subject them from deportation. And is this real to them? That group,

Enrique S. Flores:

The large majority of the people that come here undocumented, looking for a better life are decent, hardworking people. They’re family people with moral values that resemble some of the more conservative Republicans here in the United States, which is a bit ironic that they are the same values, all family values. So I think every society, every country has criminality. They have criminals. They have people that are the worst of the worst. There’s no exception. So the fact that yes, some of the people that come here fleeing because they committed a crime because they are criminals, I am not saying that it should just be a blanket response to this issue because as you correctly said, there are people that are worthy of some criminal process and have to face retributions for what they have done. But when you treat everyone the same, even though they are not, that is a problem.

Alan Pierce:

Well, I think what we’re finding is that the due process protections that do extend to everybody in this country regarding the illegal status status, that’s a separate but tightly interwoven issue here, that even if somebody might have the risk of deportation or some other reason to be questioned or detained, there should be some basic due process rights, which seem to be at least in the news media, possibly being abused if not factually being abused. So what is your advice when one of your clients calls that’s not been injured at work, they’re working for an employer, they aren’t here with proper legal documentation. What is the proper advice to these folks?

Enrique S. Flores:

My initial reaction always is to educate them on Indiana workers’ compensation law, which as of the date of this recording in April, 2025, the law is still the same as it was last year. The only things that have been changing are the amounts of benefits because they’re set to since 2023, go up a little bit through 2026, maybe some minor rules with the hearing members and the chair of the workers’ compensation system. But I tell them, I say, look, the law with workers’ compensation still affords everyone who is deemed an employee, a worker, all the benefits under state law. So mine, your P’s and Q’s, check your car, make sure that your turn signals are working, that your brake lights are working. If you go out to drink, take an Uber, take a Lyft, designate someone

Alan Pierce:

Stand, stay under the radar.

Enrique S. Flores:

Right? Right. Because sometimes it is so unnecessary. All these things. I just got a call the other day from a client that is in jail and it was public intoxication. And I mean you want to tell them, you want to say, what did I say? Or you see what our current political situation is. It is frustrating. But at that point it’s just, okay, now let’s find you competent legal representation to see if maybe you can get out of this one. It is still possible. So there is some information that can provide a glimmer of hope at least, that if they continue to work and they’re just doing what they’re supposed to do and they make it to work and they make it back, or if they are injured at work, that we will be here to fight for their benefits as long as they are still afforded by the state of Indiana.

Judson Pierce:

Why don’t we take this opportunity folks to take our first break and we’ll be right back with our special guest attorney Enrique Flores. We’re back with Enrique Flores. If there should be a raid and ice comes into the workforce, what are the rights that the undocumented folks have there? What can or cannot the employer do when that situation arises?

Enrique S. Flores:

Well, first of all, I’ll take this opportunity to inform practitioners who are listening to this approach. Your local consulates. If you’re in a city or a state that actually has more than one consulate, more than one embassy, they all should have the red cards. I don’t know if you’ve heard that term. So these are small cards that are in English and Spanish for Spanish speakers, but they have ’em in different languages. Just with a summary of your rights and also Willig Workers’ injury Law and Advocacy group. We also have the long form document for practitioners where we tell workers, first of all, stay calm. If you run, it is going to be worse. If they have a warrant to search the premises, you may be arrested. If they don’t, just try to have someone’s an attorney’s card. A lot of the times if you hand over this card or the red card indicating that you know your rights, there might be even a small chance that they might leave you alone.

But if you are arrested, if you are taken into custody by ice, you will have the right to an attorney. You should have a right to an attorney, I should say in these days as we’re talking about the slow death of due process in that sense. But that’s the big thing here. Just stay calm. Try to call someone specifically an attorney, even if the attorney is not an immigration attorney, have that attorney. Look at the list from aila, the National Immigration Organization where all the verified practitioners can be identified and just know that at least there is some help out there. But if I had to say just one thing to remember, just stay calm.

Alan Pierce:

Do you advise most folks to carry with them the name and phone number of an immigration attorney? Should they take the time to prepare for the possibility, if not probability that suddenly at some date, time and place they’re going to need one unexpectedly.

Enrique S. Flores:

That would be the best thing that they could carry.

Alan Pierce:

What about this red card that you described that you said you can get that from an embassy or a consulate or can they be gotten online? I mean, how can these folks have this

Enrique S. Flores:

Available? Yes, you can get ’em online now. You can print it out. There is a specific that gives them out. I know that Willig is going to have information on that on a link to these website.

Alan Pierce:

Is it called the red card?

Enrique S. Flores:

The red card Roja. Most of the consulates will have it where you can walk in, get a few, as many as you can and just carry them with you. They’re small. They’re about the size of a credit card fit in your wallet, extremely convenient in two languages. One of ’em always being English for the agents and the other one being your native language. I know that I have seen ’em in Arabic and in Portuguese, of course in Spanish. We took some, we give them out to our clients. We give them some information from that, and that is one of the best resources that you can carry. The next best thing to having a specific immigration attorney that is a trusted immigration attorney having that information with you is to have a card of an attorney. I give out my client’s extra cards so that they can carry it with them and just say, look, this is my attorney column so that I know that I can at the very least get them to the proper attorney for this. The main thing here for all practitioners is to be somewhat ready so that at the very least you can give the person a fighting chance.

Judson Pierce:

Enrique, what is the current status of undocumented workers who are hurt on the job? Generally, what are their rights? How can we as attorneys protect them in that situation?

Enrique S. Flores:

I used to joke, and I don’t know if you have felt like this, that workers’ compensation was always just like the forgotten child. One of those where even some of the other attorneys, I get a lot of referrals because of that. They don’t want to practice it, they don’t want to learn it. They want nothing to do with it. I think this is where it’s helping us right now. I can tell you that at least in a majority of the states, I have not heard of states moving to adapt that blanket thinking that benefits should be denied for undocumented workers. So in your state, whatever those benefits were, I don’t believe they’ve been changed too much.

Alan Pierce:

I agree with you, Enrique, for the most part across the country, certainly in Indiana, certainly in Massachusetts where we practice, but pretty much everywhere else and injured workers, immigration status is not a bar to workers’ compensation benefits. However, in this particular climate, and even before things changed to the point that we are living in now, there was always some fear of, if not actual retribution, in what ways does retribution raise its ugly head when somebody does get hurt at work? Keeping in mind that many of these workers are doing the types of jobs that might expose them to the risk of injury on a greater degree than everybody else. They’re the hard jobs, the jobs that are tough on the body. So what are the ways in the past and even the present that workers are having difficulty accessing the workers’ comp system?

Enrique S. Flores:

I can tell you that the practitioners that I’ve spoken with from all over the country, including Arizona, even Texas, which in our world is one of those that is extremely restrictive, California, we are all trying to hold a line of saying, look, an employee by definition is pretty much just someone that is working for someone else and receiving a benefit for it. So at least in our statute in Indiana, there’s no mention of that. I know in Arizona there’s more protections even than here, but it is mostly, okay, well, let’s refer to the person as an injured worker. There are some limitations as far as benefits, but I feel extremely comfortable with a client that tells me that they were injured at work and they’re undocumented to say, in Indiana you have most of the benefits. Now, of course, there’s some exclusions, and I would imagine that in other states would come in as well if you talk about fraud and all of that. Just a few exceptions. But in general, the benefits are there, and I feel that if you’re a workers’ compensation practitioner, just be fearless about that and you’ll find that even the boards are extremely friendly to providing or I guess making sure that those injured workers, regardless of their status, get the benefits that they are due on their state law.

Alan Pierce:

We’re going to take another break and we’re going to talk about the fear, if not the actuality, of having their ability to process their claim impacted by their immigration status. So take this break and we’ll be right back to conclude our conversation with Enrique Flores.

Judson Pierce:

And we’re back. What to do when an employer or opposing counsel threatens do this, and here’s what we’re going to do. What are the job responsibilities for us?

Enrique S. Flores:

I have not heard it yet, but if you do have this, don’t be afraid to use your judges single hearing members, chairs, whatever you call ’em in your state, and use that. Use the law in your favor because those are just intimidation tactics. And if they’re bringing that up and if they do fulfill it, well just know that I have been able to adjudicate and to help clients, and well better set prosecute cases on behalf of my clients that are in Mexico, that are in El Salvador, that are in Honduras, and the board hasn’t fought back against me with that. And there’s some practitioners that backed down once. I challenge them in those situations where they can say, well, they’re undocumented. They’re not owed this, and then I shoot back at them and we usually get that benefit from them. At this point, that division of state and federal and even at the federal level works well because with your state, just use your state laws in your favor and don’t back down because if a few of us start backing down and that line moves against us, it is just going to get worse.

Alan Pierce:

And reiki, let’s say Jud or I are representing an undocumented worker. He’s collecting workers’ comp or attempting to collect workers’ comp, and we hear either from the claims representative of the opposing attorney representing the employer that if we proceed with this case, they’re going to notify ICE that there’s an undocumented worker here. First of all, can they do that and what’s the landscape look like for that type of intimidation for asserting your rights to collect the benefit you’re due?

Enrique S. Flores:

Well, the way I see it, it is not any different from any other kind of intimidation. So if you do have some sort of bad faith remedy in your state, why not use it? Let’s try it. Let’s start making substantial law in our states to expand the protection of these statutes. It hasn’t happened to me yet. I know that I did receive a challenge in a mediation about the difference of what the person was making here they were H two A worker, which is a completely different area, but I fought back. I challenged them. I said, well, okay, well, let’s make new law and see how employers fare with that challenge. And yeah, sure enough, they back down.

Alan Pierce:

Are there any ethical rules for professionals such as attorneys that need to be adhered to or violate if these threats manifest themselves?

Enrique S. Flores:

That’s the other area, because I have, again, not specifically on that, but yes, I believe that whether you’re defending or prosecuting, we should all follow the rules of ethics and in trying to intimidate someone outside of the substance of the law. I mean, look, workers’ compensation is, in my opinion, very heavy on protecting employers, and I see that they were implemented so that they won’t be bankrupted by trying to protect the employees at the same time. But it seems that some of these carriers or employers try to be a little bit too heavy handed. So with our ethical rules and what we have to follow, I feel it is the same thing for employers who are opposing counsel or let’s say adjusters, they have to follow it. It doesn’t matter if they’re the adjuster or the defense attorney follow it

Judson Pierce:

At this point. I think we can conclude by saying we’re very grateful that you came on the show with us, Enrique. This time is a challenging one for practitioners and to know where our landscape is and where it’s changing, and you’ve been doing a great job of following all of that, so we thank you for giving us a glimpse into this important topic. I just want to again, share Enrique’s bio. He is a practitioner in Indiana and he has had many leadership and chairs over the years, and he practices in the realm of wrongful death, personal injury, workers’ compensation, and mediations. If folks want to get in touch with you one-on-one, how can they do so, Enrique?

Enrique S. Flores:

Well, they can always call us. Our office number is 3 1 7 4 2 6 4 2 2 8. My email, Enrique e at the flores law group.com, and our website is the flores law group.com. If you email me or call me, I’ll be sure to get in touch with you as soon as possible, and I’m happy to share the resources, the forms that we have collected from either our office or other practitioners. So don’t feel like you’re on your own on that and don’t try to reinvent the wheel. We have some forms for you.

Alan Pierce:

Are there any other organizations that you might find helpful for networking with immigration lawyers or either pro bono or for fee-based service where somebody doesn’t know where to go, what would be the first point of contact?

Enrique S. Flores:

Yes. One of my favorite is out of Oregon. I think they’re in Oregon, Northwest Justice Project, I believe N-W-J-C-P, and they’re great. They are on the forefront of anything that that has to do with immigrant protecting immigrant workers. ALA right now is on the forefront as well, trying to get ahead.

Alan Pierce:

Yeah, and that ala, by the way, I believe is the American Immigration Lawyers Association.

Enrique S. Flores:

Yes.

Alan Pierce:

I happen to have their 800 number, unless you don’t have it handy.

Enrique S. Flores:

Hey, I do not.

Alan Pierce:

I have it as 809 5 4 0 2 5 4. So I believe that is an excellent resource for networking to get appropriate legal help for this very particular area that’s developing. It

Enrique S. Flores:

Is, and we also have monthly meetings, as Jud mentioned, with Workers’ injury law advocacy group wlg.org. You can reach out to us. We have monthly meetings dealing with the immigrant workers issues where you can come ask your questions. We try to have guests who can talk about a specific topic related to the immigrant worker community.

Judson Pierce:

Enrique, if the Celtics meet the Pacers in the playoffs. I’m sorry, I’m going to have to separate from you on that. Go Celtics.

Enrique S. Flores:

Well, I’m telling you, I’m a Laker fan. Haven’t been born in California, my Dodgers cup here. But look, if you’re a Celtics fan, I think maybe we can leave that conversation for outside the podcast.

Judson Pierce:

Alright, sounds good. Well, again, sports fan or not, this was a great conversation. Very happy to have Enrique Flores on with us, for Alan Pierce, myself. Go out, make it a day. That matters. Take care. Bye-bye.

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