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Featured Guests
Nicole Bradick

Nicole is a former lawyer and the founder and CEO of Theory and Principle, a legal technology product development firm....

Chad Burton

Chad Burton is the CEO of Curolegal and is a former litigator who developed one of the nation’s first...

Chas Rampenthal

Chas Rampenthal has served as general counsel for LegalZoom since 2003 and as corporate secretary since 2007. Before joining...

Your Host
Joe Patrice

Joe Patrice is an Editor at Above the Law. For over a decade, he practiced as a litigator at...

Episode Notes

With Elie unavailable, Joe brings on Chad Burton and Nicole Bradick of CuroLegal to cohost a wide-ranging discussion with LegalZoom General Counsel and Corporate Secretary Chas Rampenthal about the role LegalZoom plays in the future of the legal profession from the perspective of both clients and other lawyers. We also ask the most important question: How well did John Travolta capture O.J. Simpson lawyer and LegalZoom cofounder Robert Shapiro.


Above the Law Thinking Like a Lawyer:
Is LegalZoom Ruining The Legal Profession Or Enhancing It


Intro: Welcome to Thinking Like a Lawyer with your hosts Elie Mystal and Joe Patrice talking about legal news and pop culture, all while thinking like a lawyer, here on Legal Talk Network.

Joe Patrice: Hello. Welcome to another edition of Thinking Like a Lawyer. I am Joe Patrice from Above the Law. Elie Mystal could be with us because he is physically not with me in Chicago and we couldn’t get a good time to dial him in, so I have had to recruit some new co-hosts. So I hope this won’t jar and scar any of you listeners who were fully expecting the melodious tones of Elie Mystal. But I have with me Chad Burton and Nicole Bradick from Curo. How are you all today?

Nicole Bradick: We are good.

Chad Burton: Yeah.

Nicole Bradick: Yeah.

Chad Burton: Good enough.

Joe Patrice: See, part of the reason that we brought them in to be the co-hosts is we figured we needed somebody who could grind gears as well as Elie does, and I think the answer to that was found when the question how are you today was responded to with, yeah.

Chad Burton: Oh, I am sorry, I am doing amazing. Things are great.

Nicole Bradick: It’s so delightful and sunny.

Chad Burton: I love Legal Talk Conferences.

Nicole Bradick: I think what’s sad for the listeners is that I am slightly better looking than Elie, and I feel like it’s sad that they can only hear my voice, because I feel like his voice is more melodic.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, it is. It’s what — I mean, it’s just liquid sex going right into the microphone.

Nicole Bradick: Yeah, it kind of is, yeah.

Joe Patrice: So what has got you all down grinding the gears, what makes you upset?

Nicole Bradick: God, there is so much. There is so much that’s enraging about the universe. I think today our biggest gripe is that Clio, they have how many million in funding and their coffee cups don’t have that thingy that goes around them that prevents the coffee from getting too hot.

Chad Burton: Yeah, I have been burning my hand all day.

Joe Patrice: Oh, that little cardboard holder thing?

Nicole Bradick: I think they need to go for another round of funding, because I am really concerned about scalding burns on my business partner here, who is a little bit clumsy.

Chad Burton: I have little hands anyway and if they are ineffective, that’s not helpful.

Nicole Bradick: They are supple.

Joe Patrice: There are some personal injury lawyers here, by the way, if you are interested.

Chad Burton: And they are super efficient because they use Clio.

Joe Patrice: That’s right. There we go.

Chad Burton: I bet they provide great customer service as a result.

Joe Patrice: We are here at the Clio Cloud Conference in Chicago, in the Blu Aqua Hotel, which is, I would use the term swanky, I think, right?

Nicole Bradick: Yeah.

Joe Patrice: Like there is lot of neon blue around me and everything.

Chad Burton: You would use that word.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, yeah, right, it’s a word, of course.

Nicole Bradick: Some people do use that word.

Joe Patrice: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know what else —

Chad Burton: Not in public, but people use it.

Joe Patrice: I mean, people did in like 1955. I am making America great again.

Chad Burton: You go 02:51, that’s super swanky. It’s going to be awesome.

Joe Patrice: I am making America great again.

Nicole Bradick: Guys, I keep forgetting not to cackle into the microphone and I feel like that’s going to upset listeners; I am going to try not to.

Joe Patrice: You can cackle into the microphone.

Nicole Bradick: Elie wouldn’t do that.

Joe Patrice: No, he wouldn’t, but that’s the thing, we have — I mean, I don’t know, we didn’t really tell you this —

Chad Burton: You are going to be edited out at the end anyway so it’s okay.

Joe Patrice: This microphone is not live. You do not have a live microphone. You were standing there when I asked Chad to host and I was like, um, it seemed awkward.

Nicole Bradick: I said I was the worst podcaster on earth.

Chad Burton: We have had diversity issues before, when we — actually, the three of us when we did the —

Joe Patrice: Well, that’s a good segue to bring in our guest who has worked with us before. Chas, how are you doing?

Chas Rampenthal: Things are great today. How are you?

Joe Patrice: Yeah, we have the General Counsel and Corporate Secretary of LegalZoom.

Chas Rampenthal: Can’t leave that last part out.

Chad Burton: I don’t why that doesn’t come first.

Joe Patrice: It’s an awkward thing, I always would have just said General Counsel, but in the last podcast that three of us did together, which for those of you who haven’t listened to it, it’s on the ABA Law Student Podcast, the Alternative Careers in Law or something like that.

Chas Rampenthal: Yeah.

Joe Patrice: It’s a cavalcade of hilarity involving us really, really eagerly trying to get out of the ABA Annual Meeting and yet —

Chas Rampenthal: Because they were literally tearing down the room.

Joe Patrice: They were breaking it down. There were fork trucks behind us.

Chas Rampenthal: You can hear it in the background. You can hear the forklifts in the background.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, so we were the center of a crumbling empire talking about our legal careers, or more accurately how we got out of law. There was all levels of metaphor involved.

Chas Rampenthal: So much going on.

Joe Patrice: I think Chas’ fighter pilot metaphor was probably the best one or the plane.

Chas Rampenthal: 20 and forward, 30 side down, take up sequel landings. Good advice any profession you are in, absolutely.

Joe Patrice: Summed up the entire thing.

Nicole Bradick: I don’t listen to Chas’ podcast so I have no idea what you are talking about.


Joe Patrice: We had a conversation about what — how we came to have these different legal careers, be a reporter or —

Chas Rampenthal: Laurence was on it too.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right.

Chas Rampenthal: I learned more about Laurence during that podcast than after many, many — like days — spending days with him, I learned more about his past that day.

Joe Patrice: For listeners that Laurence Colletti, our Producer, who is usually unheard on this podcast, but is always, always in the background telling us what we are doing wrong, so that’s why — but he was a guest on that one.

Chas Rampenthal: He is like the 1960s child, seen and not heard, it’s beautiful.

Nicole Bradick: Yeah, that’s right.

Joe Patrice: In my swanky abode he was not heard. Yeah, so we are here. How is the conference going for folks?

Nicole Bradick: It’s always quite good.

Chas Rampenthal: Yeah, I am a fan. I have gotten a little bit out of it so far. It was a really awesome opening.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Chas Rampenthal: Lots of high energy, a lot of clapping for nine o’clock in the morning. It took me by surprise; I am not going to lie.

Chad Burton: People were standing up and cheering. It was a little awkward, because lawyers like getting up and clapping along with music and dancing.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, if anyone that hasn’t come to this conference I kind of highly recommend it. This is a very different conference feel than most that I go to.

Chas Rampenthal: Not your typical legal conference.

Joe Patrice: No, yeah. Well, actually, Nicole, you had a question to ask.

Nicole Bradick: I do have a question for Chas.

Chas Rampenthal: Oh my!

Nicole Bradick: Chas!

Chas Rampenthal: Yes.

Nicole Bradick: I am a lawyer.

Chas Rampenthal: Hi.

Nicole Bradick: I would like to know —

Chad Burton: Wait, hold on, time out, before you finish that, he is going to grind another gear. I am sorry, can we move past that?

Nicole Bradick: I am a licensed member of this Bar of Maine.

Joe Patrice: Well, that doesn’t really count.

Chas Rampenthal: I think that counts.

Nicole Bradick: Of course it counts. Oh my God, F. Lee Bailey was a Maine lawyer.

Chas Rampenthal: Was.

Nicole Bradick: We have an esteemed bar. Maine is a wonderful place to practice and it’s a wonderful bar.

Chas Rampenthal: You have an amazing Governor too.

Nicole Bradick: Okay, I have a very serious question to post to Chas here and you are screwing it up, and it’s a very weighty question and I am very serious about it. Chas, I want to know why, why are you ruining the legal profession for everyone, why Chas?

Chas Rampenthal: Well, I want to take this question seriously since you posed it in such a serious manner and say, please, I can’t take all the credit for that. I am pretty sure the legal profession itself has done a really awesome job of messing itself up over the past, what, 130 some odd years that the ABA has been around and the last several decades that we have seen the emergence of technology has been mostly shunned, except for the people at this conference, when you take a look at it.

Nicole Bradick: People still shun us like everyday.

Chas Rampenthal: Even so, I still don’t think the legal profession is ruined; I just think it’s slightly tarnished and something that’s tarnished can always be brought back to luster with a little elbow grease, that’s the way I look at it.

Nicole Bradick: Look at that attitude.

Chas Rampenthal: I am pretty plucky for a Monday.

Joe Patrice: You are plucky.

Nicole Bradick: For somebody who is ruining our industry, it’s so plucky.

Joe Patrice: Is it really ruining? I mean, yeah, it might be displacing the work of — kind of positive work of somebody at the bottom of the food chain, but it’s not — I mean, I don’t think LegalZoom is going to negotiate Goldman Sachs at merger and acquisition with something, right?

Chas Rampenthal: Right, that’s very true.

Joe Patrice: Can you give us your 20-year roadmap on how you are going to do that? Can we get like a breaking news like, you wrongly estimate that there is a road map at all.

Chas Rampenthal: No, look, we obviously have — a way that we take a look at the profession, and I have said time and time again in public places, I guess this would now count for one once this thing goes live,

Joe Patrice: For both people — I assume there’s like two people.

Chas Rampenthal: Two, three people, that I think the future of the legal profession has to continue to include lawyers. I think that medicine without doctors, people will never look at that is really truly medicine. Now, it doesn’t mean there has to be a doctor for everything, but there has to be a doctor somewhere.

No one is going to go to, at least not in my lifetime I think, to have a robot, with no or zero human interaction do some very, very complicated surgery on themselves. I think that doing your taxes without knowing that there’s some accountant somewhere, especially if you have got something more complex, I think that’s always going to happen and I think law — there’s always going to be complexities of it, where you are going to need a lawyer.

The important thing for me is to try and figure out when you see numbers like we have seen at the Clio Conference, when you see realization and utilization rates, so when you are adding it all up for a solo lawyer and you are roughly getting six or seven hours of actually like realized billed, utilized collected time in a week from Clio customers, who probably are ahead of the curve, that leads me to wonder why are more people not using lawyers.


And technology isn’t it, at least not in my view, I think technology is great for lawyers. The big question is, why do people not see value in what we do? I often hear people talk about, well, we need someone to be the Uber of law, and Eddie Hartman, one of our founders, and I have had this amazing competition on what could be like the worst Uber of for any industry. I think the last one we landed on was like Uber of firefighting, which we figured probably would be really terrible, but no, I view the Uberization of law, which I have heard a lot of people talk about as something that’s not really needed.

And the reason why is because no one has ever said, gee, I wonder if there is a way, I wonder if there is a way for me to get to the airport on a Sunday morning, I wonder if only there was a thing. Oh my God, I just found Uber. No, it was something that existed that they just made easier to use.

And I take a look at the utter utilization of legal services, this is not something — that’s something that exists, but the converse is what doesn’t exist, and that is a bunch of people who aren’t finding a bunch of unemployed lawyers. So let’s figure out a way to make them and marry them up, and I think that’s the future of our profession.

Joe Patrice: What is the Uber of Joe Patrice, I don’t know about Joe Patrice per se, but as a host of Thinking Like a Lawyer I found the Uber of Thinking Like a Lawyer host, which is why you two are here.

Nicole Bradick: Yes, we need an app.

Chad Burton: That’s right.

Joe Patrice: I needed something and I got freelancers to do it.

Nicole Bradick: So I mean, I actually don’t think you are ruining the legal profession, I was joking.

Chas Rampenthal: Thank you. I know you were being facetious.

Nicole Bradick: I was being facetious. And I think it’s interesting because when I talk to lawyers who do actually believe that your affect on the profession has been net negative, the question I always pose is, do you think that the value you offer to clients isn’t filling out forms, is that where you are having value and impact? And the answer is always no, that’s not where my value is.

So really the discussion with these lawyers is, well, let’s figure out a different way to price and package your services, and that’s really the challenge, because they have had one way of packaging and pricing and you have screwed up that way of packaging and pricing, but that doesn’t mean you have taken any value out of the services they offer. And I think that that should be seen as an opportunity to actually deliver services that are valuable to clients.

Chas Rampenthal: Thanks. I do appreciate that. I mean, I am not going to disagree when you say something nice like that.

Chad Burton: He doesn’t.

Nicole Bradick: He doesn’t what?

Chad Burton: He doesn’t care what you say.

Nicole Bradick: Oh no.

Chas Rampenthal: I do. No, absolutely.

Nicole Bradick: I am a legal visionary so he really should.

Chad Burton: You haven’t mentioned that you are a legal rebel yet. Usually that comes out the first five minutes of any time she has been interviewed.

Nicole Bradick: I am very rebellious. Should I get my other accolades? I think we are fine. I think everyone here knows how amazing I am so.

Chas Rampenthal: Look, I am with you. I think that if you would take a look at what LegalZoom has done, and I think it is the question that when someone poses it, what has LegalZoom done for “the profession of law”, yeah, you know what, maybe not a ton, but what have we done for consumers of law, I think we have done a lot.

What have we done for awareness of legal issues, like more people getting wills, more people understanding forming a business, more people understanding some of their legal rights and some of the things that they can do because they understand there’s a national brand, whether or not it’s what you think should be the national brand, it’s what is right now.

And I think we have done a lot to help educate legal consumers on their needs, and I think that if we can take a look at some of the people like, I have gone to LegalZoom, I don’t think it’s right for me, but they went on to hire a more traditional lawyer or even a flat fee lawyer, I think you can see a lot of very satisfied people who otherwise would have been going without.

Chad Burton: And not to give you a softball to make you sound positive, but isn’t LegalZoom actually sending legal work to lawyers?

Chas Rampenthal: Absolutely. The past six years —

Chad Burton: That was the worse softball.

Nicole Bradick: That sounded like you had a note card, Chad.

Chas Rampenthal: I now owe Chad $48.25, which was the going rate for that question.

Nicole Bradick: Can we like start over, can you ask something more snarky?

Chad Burton: It wasn’t search priced.

Chad Burton: No, no search priced. Let me try this again, so I am confused, I mean like half listening to what you said, I don’t think you made —

Chas Rampenthal: I will take half.

Chad Burton: That’s generous. Did you answer Nicole’s question why you are ruining the legal profession?

Chas Rampenthal: No, thank you for noticing, I did not answer it. I answered the question that I wanted to answer, which is, why am I the only person being accused of ruining the legal profession?

Nicole Bradick: That is actually the answer you provided.

Chad Burton: Can we start over? I haven’t done this with you before so I was like, can we — like she has to back question at the beginning, which derailed —

Nicole Bradick: My question was amazing.

Chad Burton: No, if you would have said, why is LegalZoom ruining the profession instead of why is Chas ruining it, then we have a whole different discussion.

Chas Rampenthal: I think she was looking to me as a proxy for the company.

Nicole Bradick: Yes, Chad, that’s exactly what I was doing.

Chas Rampenthal: That’s how I took it.

Nicole Bradick: And I think everybody listening to this podcast understood that except you.


Chad Burton: This is how I should have been listening in the beginning too.

Nicole Bradick: Joe.

Joe Patrice: I am starting to wonder if maybe Uber — it’s a bad Uber review.

Chas Rampenthal: Yeah, may be.

Chad Burton: This might be like a three-point.

Joe Patrice: Oh God. Do you want to get on my Uber rating issues? I’ve got a horrible Uber rating even though I am the best rider in this country.

Chas Rampenthal: It’s just false. Everyone knows I’m the best rider in the country, it’s been proven empirically whenever I compare my Uber rating to yours, Chad.

Chad Burton: Oh man, it’s horrible. Wow.

Chas Rampenthal: Do try and get back to Chad’s question by sending your work to lawyers absolutely when I take a look at LegalZoom, I take a look at the last six years especially since we first launched the legal plans that we administer, we have engaged consumers like people who normally wouldn’t be going and speaking to a lawyer over 300,000 consultations with a lawyer on legal matters that they see every day.

These are attorneys around the country and right now 48 states in the District of Columbia hopefully soon to get the last two to fall that we are sending people to get true legal advice from legal professionals that are bar licensed in the State for that legal matters arising and I see that it’s something great. It again is giving people a positive experience when it comes to the legal profession instead of the just above Big Oil and Congress rating that most of us get when you take a look at the legal profession, and that’s a good thing.

Chad Burton: Yeah.

Chas Rampenthal: I hope.

Chad Burton: I like that. That’s the best way to end an answer. That’s a really good answer.

Joe Patrice: So I’ll take it a slightly different direction because I’m going to do the crazy — I’m not going to do a softball, I’ll do like screwball.

Chad Burton: Sweet.

Joe Patrice: So John Travolta, good Robert Shapiro bad Robert Shapiro portrayal.

Chad Burton: You are a pro.

Chas Rampenthal: Oh, yeah, excellent. So I did watch a bit of that, I am not going to lie, and I obviously know Bob very well. Bob in the early days of LegalZoom, before he started the Brent Shapiro Foundation was in the office all the time like 1-2 days, a week at a minimum, for a few hours and John Travolta, I believe, I have not met or spent a lot of time with John, is quite a large man, and Bob is not by any way I think short. But I think John Travolta is such a big guy, I thought that he kind of overplayed Bob, that’s my own personal review as someone who knows absolutely nothing about acting.

Joe Patrice: So they did not ask you for your feedback on that issue, is it what you’re saying?

Chas Rampenthal: No, not at all. I will say that – there were — the Emmy’s were last night, I heard that. I think Sarah Paulson won an Emmy —

Joe Patrice: She did.

Chas Rampenthal: — and I heard that her performance and the bit that I saw that I thought was pretty good and she gave a pretty new view on what I think a lot of people had previously held about Marcia Clark.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, that show actually cleaned up last night from what I hear.

Chas Rampenthal: Yeah.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, got a lot.

Chas Rampenthal: I was on a plane here.

Chad Burton: I was driving from — I left Rochester, New York at 8:30 p.m. driving back to New York City in a rental car which allowed me to get to Brooklyn right around 3 am, drop off my bags, pick up the bag I had already packed to come here, get back in the car, drive it to return, and then get on the plane to land here this morning. I have had a long and winding journey here.

Joe Patrice: That sounds horrific.

Chad Burton: Yeah no, so if I’m not paying, advising, it’s like zone out at that point.

Joe Patrice: Oh I got some, I slept last night, I am still zone out so that’s cool, right?

Nicole Bradick: I want to talk about the fact that Joe referred to himself earlier as a reporter, is that really what you say?

Joe Patrice: You know it’s weird. Actually ‘Above the Law’ is a weird job description ever be asked about because you’re like, so are you a lawyer? I am like, yes. Oh, can you help me with this? I am like, well, but I don’t practice. Oh so, what do you do? I’m like, I write things. Oh, you’re a journalist. Kind of — like it’s – yeah, it’s a very difficult one, and you don’t want to necessarily say smooth journalist especially when you’re talking to people who are making expectations about your net worth because they’re going to be like, oh yeah, this guy — and I am like, no, I’m a legal industry journalist. I don’t know how best to answer that question if anyone in the hive mind can tell me how to best describe myself so I sound impressive.

Chad Burton: Give it some thought para brand consultant, that’s my recommendation.

Joe Patrice: Yeah — no, well, we can find out — we can actually find out whether or not two people are listening to this podcast or not, people can hit us up by responding to at least @josephpatrice.

Chad Burton: What are you giving away to the winner?

Joe Patrice: Undying love and respect, I don’t know.

Chad Burton: Yes, that’s all you can ask for really.

Chas Rampenthal: Yeah, I mean, that’s all anyone can really get.

Nicole Bradick: You don’t seem to have a lot of that so –

Chas Rampenthal: Right. One person should get it.

Nicole Bradick: He is hard-hearted so I feel like that’s a major one.

Chad Burton: You may not want to give all that away in one sitting.

Joe Patrice: Be conservative with it. So what do we have to look forward to at this conference everybody? What’s got you most excited over the next few hours?

Nicole Bradick: Their evening events are super-fun.

Chas Rampenthal: Yeah, based on tech show and the Clio thing that went on there which my nephew lives in Chicago and when I told him I was in town and that I was going to go to another Clio party I was invited, he politely said, no, thanks uncle Chas, I think I’m going to stay home and not throw up in the cab on the way home.


Joe Patrice: Wow, perfect.

Chas Rampenthal: Sorry, Mitchell for outing you on that one, but yeah, he pretty much wrecked himself.

Joe Patrice: That’s what happens when you bring your 10-year-old cousin.

Chas Rampenthal: He is my nephew and he is 24.

Joe Patrice: Oh, Nephew or whatever it is, yeah.

Chas Rampenthal: 25 now, geez.

Joe Patrice: Well, I did hear, it was interviewing of Ryan earlier ‘On the Road’, on the Legal Talk Network, another show you should be listening to.

Chas Rampenthal: How many Legal Talk Network podcast, shouldn’t you just say podcast host is your title?

Joe Patrice: Right, well over the last few months —

Chas Rampenthal: You are almost doing well with it.

Joe Patrice: Normally it’s just this one, but yeah, all right. He was saying that can he sworn to secrecy but there’s going to be an announcement tomorrow about the future of this conference that they feel will blow everyone away.

Chad Burton: That’s just setting an unreasonable expectation.

Nicole Bradick: Wait, wait.

Chas Rampenthal: I don’t know.

Nicole Bradick: He is going to say something that’s going to blow you away?

Joe Patrice: Yeah, Jack’s going to make an announcement about the future of this conference.

Nicole Bradick: It takes a lot to blow me away. I feel.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Chas Rampenthal: All right. Are you allowed to start speculating?

Nicole Bradick: Yeah.

Joe Patrice: That’s what I think we should do, right?

Chas Rampenthal: You get a car, you get a car, you get a car, everyone here gets a car, matchbox car. No, like that would blow me away.

Nicole Bradick: What else could it be?

Chas Rampenthal: It would be fun if you just got it there started yelling like Opera style, I would be super happy about that.

Joe Patrice: Removing the whole conference to Canada, I don’t know.

Chas Rampenthal: Yeah, wow.

Chad Burton: What if they get up and announce that effective five minutes from his speech, they are shutting down the company and no one gets their data and all the data is destroyed immediately?

Nicole Bradick: Or it’s going to be like the hunger games.

Chas Rampenthal: I don’t think that’s a good —

Joe Patrice: It will release the hounds.

Nicole Bradick: They will release the hounds.

Joe Patrice: Or the bees, the hounds 21:57.

Nicole Bradick: What’s that guy from ‘Game of Thrones’, the terrible guy who died —-

Joe Patrice: Ramsay Bolton.

Chad Burton: Ramsay.

Nicole Bradick: Ramsay Bolton is going to 22:04.

Chas Rampenthal: Wow, that was fast.

Joe Patrice: I don’t even watch the show, I knew that that was the name that carried it but I haven’t watched it last three seasons but I didn’t know that.

Nicole Bradick: Is this podcast really just as bullshitting? Is this what – really?

Joe Patrice: Largely. Yeah.

Nicole Bradick: Well, if I would have greeted this easily, I was very hesitant because I was concerned, I was going to have to like —

Joe Patrice: Oh no, no.

Chas Rampenthal: She thought that there was going to be substance.

Nicole Bradick: No, this is amazing; we are just bullshitting for an hour.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, we are quite — well, not an hour.

Nicole Bradick: However long ago.

Chas Rampenthal: Oh lord, I hope not.

Joe Patrice: Well, you can go for an hour because again that might —

Nicole Bradick: Oh my God.

Joe Patrice: But ‘Thinking like a Lawyer’ is generally Elie, me and a guest doing this for a long time.

Nicole Bradick: Are we thinking like a lawyer?

Joe Patrice: Whatever.

Chad Burton: Wait a minute, I haven’t yet raised a problem, you don’t know you have, so how can I possibly be thinking like a lawyer?

Nicole Bradick: Oh, yes, it’s true.

Joe Patrice: That’s not altogether true. You did, you raise the need for these documents.

Chas Rampenthal: Oh that’s true.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, I know, yeah, we absolutely did thinking like a lawyer.

Chas Rampenthal: I feel that’s the value-add of most lawyers. This is not problem-solving, but problem-creating.

Nicole Bradick: I feel like if this is how lawyers generally think then it’s very problematic, I think we have much larger issues than Chas.

Chas Rampenthal: I am a little concerned that I want to get to the bottom of like you don’t watch ‘Game of Thrones’ anymore so you used to watch it back in the day but what, because it became super-popular you stopped watching?

Joe Patrice: No.

Nicole Bradick: You stopped, you started, that’s not even possible.

Joe Patrice: Well, I did – oh, well, I am hesitant to answer this because the answer I am going to give is one that you’ve heard before and will roll your eyes but it is –

Chad Burton: I cut the cord.

Joe Patrice: After the first season I read all the books at which point I had no real interest in watching the show for several seasons.

Chas Rampenthal: My wife is the same way. Once she reads a book she can’t watch a movie or a show. I can’t do it. No, she actually can’t.

Nicole Bradick: So you mean you —

Chas Rampenthal: This is why I don’t read books, so I can always watch the show.

Chad Burton: Absolutely.

Joe Patrice: So I stopped really needing to watch the show and then when they came back with new material, I was like —

Chas Rampenthal: 23:58.

Joe Patrice: Yeah because they changed little things.

Chad Burton: Now you have to go back and watch, right.

Joe Patrice: It makes sense – yeah, exactly.

Nicole Bradick: But then how do you get your daily fill of rapes and beheadings?

Joe Patrice: I live in New York City, so yeah, I know.

Nicole Bradick: Oh, of course.

Chas Rampenthal: Oh.

Chad Burton: Oh.

Joe Patrice: That’s not true. I am currently in Chicago.

Chad Burton: Well, also she is going out and be there too.

Joe Patrice: All right, but no, this is what this show is generally like, it’s our format, yeah.

Nicole Bradick: Wow. I wouldn’t have hesitated. If I knew I could just come on here and talk about nothing, that’s great.

Joe Patrice: Well, there you go.

Chad Burton: Is the Seinfeld of radio podcast.

Nicole Bradick: Essentially.

Joe Patrice: You are not talking about anything because we can’t hear you, so that’s proudly the only Legal Talk Network show with the explicit tag.

Chad Burton: Hurray! Wait minute we can curse.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Chad Burton: So awesome. Let me think of the word I want to start out with – I will get back in a bit.

Nicole Bradick: So 24:48 Lawrence.

Joe Patrice: Well, I think we’re actually close to the time, aren’t we or – yeah – no.

Chas Rampenthal: Oh.

Joe Patrice: So yeah, thanks everybody for joining.


Nicole Bradick: Yeah, thanks, Chas.

Chas Rampenthal: Thanks Joe.

Joe Patrice: Thanks for not destroying the legal production.

Chas Rampenthal: You are a great guest. I can’t wait to see what you guys do next.

Joe Patrice: Thanks to Chad.

Chas Rampenthal: All guys are killing me.

Joe Patrice: 25:14 Uber LA.

Nicole Bradick: I am sure we are going to be asked to do this again. I pretty much guarantee.

Joe Patrice: Yeah, this was fun. I actually think Future Tech Conferences, this should become the staple panel for episodes that we run from there.

If you are listening to this and you don’t already subscribe to our show you should do that through whatever podcast subscribing service you have whether its iTunes or whatever the thing, the other thing.

Chas Rampenthal: Do people listen to podcast?

Joe Patrice: Oh yeah — no, I’ve heard it’s a fact.

Chad Burton: Just so we’re clear, while this is happening someone is now vacuuming right next to us and keeping with the Chas and Chad on the air someone must be doing something janitorial, it’s occurred we can now end the show.

Joe Patrice: Give us reviews, read ‘Above the Law’ things like that.

Chad Burton: Things like that. I live your life. Is that right? Do something good with carpe diem.

Joe Patrice: Every day like staff members are tearing down the room around, because in a very real sense they are.

Chad Burton: Constantly.

Joe Patrice: All right I can’t.

Chas Rampenthal: I don’t even feel welcomed here anymore. I don’t feel welcomed.

Nicole Bradick: Or else just end it, just abruptly end it.

Chas Rampenthal: Is there a closing music on this one.

Joe Patrice: Yeah.

Chas Rampenthal: What’s that?

Joe Patrice: We will catch you on a future episode.

Chas Rampenthal: Or not.

Joe Patrice: Now here is journey.

Announcer: If you would like more information about what you heard today please visit You can also find us at,, iTunes, RSS, Twitter, and Facebook.

The views expressed by the participants of this program are their own and do not represent the views of, nor are they endorsed by Legal Talk Network, its officers, directors, employees, agents, representatives, shareholders and subsidiaries. None of the content should be considered legal advice. As always, consult a lawyer.

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Episode Details
Published: September 30, 2016
Podcast: Thinking Like a Lawyer - Above the Law
Thinking Like a Lawyer - Above the Law
Thinking Like a Lawyer - Above the Law

Above the Law's Elie Mystal and Joe Patrice examine everyday topics through the prism of a legal framework.

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