EP 516- The Law Clerk Experience Part Three

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to The. Jury. is Out a podcast for trial attorneys who want to sharpen their skills and better serve their clients. Your co-hosts are John Simon, founder of the Simon Law Firm Tim Cronin personal injury trial attorney at the Simon Law Firm and St. Louis attorney, Erich Vieth.

Sydney Marino:

Hi. Welcome back to The. Jury is Out. I’m Sydney Marino, joining you again, and I have here with me Abbie Hoefer.

Isabella Gonzalez:

Hi everyone. It’s Issa Gonzalez

Tony Simon:

And Tony Simon.

Sydney Marino:

And today we’re going to be talking about success in your personal life, school life and career setting boundaries.

Tony Simon:

Let’s talk about that. What do you mean by setting boundaries? Like don’t call me after seven o’clock because I’m at

Sydney Marino:

Home. Maybe it’s setting expectations for friends and family. I think with school and now, and you guys will experience this, Abby, and you said that you’re going to be working while in school. I was someone that was, you were told you’re one L year, don’t have a job while your first year of law school. I Good advice. Well, I didn’t listen to that. I did not listen to that,

But that’s the kind of person I am and I take on a lot of responsibilities and I like to always be busy. So I had a job all of my first year of law school. I don’t think that it affected me in a negative way. I think it kept my time management skills to a T because I was able to do my readings, do my work, and then I had to go to work my actual job. And it wasn’t anything to do with law. I worked at Lululemon, so it was a great job to have to get your mind away from school. But I think now having worked at a law firm throughout school, it is a big adjustment and I think you guys will experience that. But being able to set those expectations to your friends and family that I can’t go on that trip that you’re planning that college reunion.

I can’t go because I have to be working whenever I’m not in class. And then outside of that, I need to be doing my readings. I need to be preparing for my journal essay or my journal note that I’m writing. And whenever you do have free weekends, taking time for yourself to regenerate and have me time, I think that’s a big thing that luckily my family’s here and my family understands that, and I have a lot of friends here and they understand that. But I think being able to set boundaries early on with those people that you care about in your life is a big thing because it is hard. And

Tony Simon:

No, that’s a good point. And I will say, and we do this here, correct me if I’m wrong, we say don’t work so many weeks before finals so you can prepare. I’ve told clerks many times when they come to me and say, look, I’m just really busy right now with school and I’m struggling. I always tell ’em, your grades are most important, so if you need to stop working, you have to stop working. I mean, you don’t really have a choice if you don’t get a law degree and pass all your classes. Yes. Yeah, it’s not going to help you.

Abbie Hoefer:

I was going to say, I think not only setting boundaries with other people like family and friends, but setting boundaries with yourself is super important. I think I sometimes feel guilty, haven’t seen my friends in three weeks and they’re doing something. And I think that the first year, at least of law school, I felt a lot of pressure because there were so many things I wanted to be doing, but then I also had a lot of work, but then also sometimes I just needed a night by myself to decompress and kind of get my head back on straight for the weekend so that I could be productive. So I think a lot of the lunch and learns have focus on this, but figuring out how you’re going to be the most successful and what you need from your family and friends, but also from yourself because at a certain point you have to let yourself relax in whatever the way that is. If that means regenerating with friends and family, do it. If it means regenerating sitting alone watching a movie on a Friday night, then that’s what you need to do. But I think just figuring out what works best for you

Isabella Gonzalez:

That avoids the burnout. I mean, that’s the only way to, you need some form of disconnect because if not, you would go crazy just sitting there. I mean, my family’s not here, so always during the semester I would tell them they would call me during the day when I was studying or in class or something. And I got to one point in the semester my first semester that I was like, you know what? Next semester I’m going to have a policy. And I sent them a PowerPoint presentation with my,

Sydney Marino:

That’s such a law student thing today. I

Isabella Gonzalez:

Sent, so a, I sent screenshots of my schedule. It was like a blank PowerPoint, nothing fancy you, but I was like, this is the schedule, so when to call me. And it helped because it helped with the balance. And I would always make sure that I would call my grandparents at a certain time I would call. So keeping those communications open or really important because the people that are not in law school do not understand. So when you talk to ’em and you haven’t talked to ’em for two weeks, to them they’re wondering, why haven’t you talked to me for two weeks? And you are thinking, oh my god, these have been the most stressful two weeks of my life. So

Tony Simon:

Especially for first generations.

Isabella Gonzalez:

Yes. I mean, that was a big adjustment for me because I would tell my mom, like, listen, I’ll call you whenever I can or I’ll talk to you whenever I can. And sometimes she would get a good morning text and that was it, and I was focused for the rest of the day on what I was doing. And then I’d call and update. But the boundaries are really important to avoid that burnout because you’re working on a lot, you’re handling a lot, especially now that we’re adding work into the situation, that’s going to be a new challenge with the time management and finding the time to make those disconnect moments happen for you.

Tony Simon:

And I’ll say too, working during the school year is different because, and we try to address this in our assignments here. I know on my team we do in the summer, you’re here 40 hours and so I can tell you on Monday, I need something by Tuesday, but your time and your schedule with school, you might work on Monday and Friday, and so I can’t give you something Monday that I need Wednesday. And so you need to make sure you communicate that what your hours are going to be. Because here we’re flexible and we say we want you to work 15 hours, but we let you pick the 15 hours. And you just need to make sure when you get assignments, you say, Hey, Tony, just so you know, I’m not back here until Friday, so if this is due tomorrow, I’m not the right clerk for this job, for this project.

Sydney Marino:

Yeah. I think another thing I wanted to add just about for first years and anyone that would be listening that is starting their first year or is their first year, treat it like a nine to five, eight to five every single day. Because

Tony Simon:

You mean school or work?

Sydney Marino:

School,

Tony Simon:

Okay.

Sydney Marino:

Because if you aren’t working, which the majority of people won’t be, you’ll just be in school, treat that, whether it’s you’re at school for that long, which some people do. That’s how I work best is staying at school. I can’t,

Isabella Gonzalez:

Your focus level is completely different.

Sydney Marino:

You just treat it like a nine to five, treat it like you’re there for a full-time job because that’s what it is. But then you have to remember there is things outside of that and the time you take outside of that, that’s a boundary that I try and set is I tried to set, my first year was I’m working a nine to five, I’m in school as a nine to five, but that doesn’t mean that it stops at five o’clock when I go home. Because you have to do readings and you have to do case briefs, and you have to review material for if you’re on call the next day, if

Isabella Gonzalez:

You know you’re on call the next day, if you know you’re on

Sydney Marino:

Call. I love cold calls.

Isabella Gonzalez:

Cold calls

Sydney Marino:

Fun. I’m going to say that. And if one of my professors is listening, they’re going to remember that. But I do like cold calls. Take it easy. It’s fun. It is

Tony Simon:

Fun. You have to go to class.

Sydney Marino:

Yes,

Isabella Gonzalez:

You do have to go to class. Yes. Going to class is very important. I don’t think we’re all adults at this point when you reach law school. So it really is a choice if you miss class and you have nothing going on.

Sydney Marino:

I don’t know. I thought the A BA regulates it.

Isabella Gonzalez:

They do. You can get I think something from school saying like, Hey,

Sydney Marino:

You missed so and so many classes. That’s new.

Isabella Gonzalez:

Yeah,

Sydney Marino:

I didn’t think that was, don’t quote me on that. Anyone listening, but I thought that there was a certain number for certain classes. Yeah, for certain classes.

Tony Simon:

Do your research,

Sydney Marino:

Do your research, do the research.

Tony Simon:

No,

Isabella Gonzalez:

But yeah, going to classes is a big part of your day. Sometimes these classes are long, if they’re seminars or if they’re just, you have two hour classes, you’re in there and then you have to go review the material that you just learned. And it’s a lot during the day. And you’re right, it doesn’t end at five. It’s like whatever. You didn’t finish at school, you, yeah,

Sydney Marino:

You got to go home and

Isabella Gonzalez:

Do work out. You got to go and home and workout and get back into it. So it’s a give and take time management

Sydney Marino:

Working. I think Simon does a great job of school comes first and just making sure you set expectations. Like me, I don’t remember what my schedule was whenever I was working last semester when I was in school, but even I’d come for sometimes two hours of the day, but you set those boundaries. I was working on my journal note a lot second semester, so I would say, Hey, I have this deadline in two weeks. Just letting everyone know,

Tony Simon:

Communication is the key.

Sydney Marino:

Communicating guys,

Tony Simon:

Letting your employer know whatever firm you’re at. I think that’s a good point. So we’ve talked about working and being a clerk, and one thing I wanted to ask about was do you pick a certain path, like an IP path or something, law school. Now, do they have

Abbie Hoefer:

That Their first year classes are all given to you. You do not get to pick your schedule,

Tony Simon:

Right? That’s the same

Abbie Hoefer:

And second year

Sydney Marino:

You

Abbie Hoefer:

Get to choose your classes.

Sydney Marino:

That’s across the country. First year law students typically take the exact same classes all at every single law school.

Isabella Gonzalez:

Think it varies the way they distribute it.

Sydney Marino:

Yes, it’s different semesters, but typically it’s torts, civil procedure or criminal law contracts, constitutional law, property, property.

Tony Simon:

How has your preparation in law school prepared you? Has it helped? Do you think it’s helped you be a LawClerk?

Abbie Hoefer:

So as I feel like Sydney may have different opinions after finishing her second year, but as someone who’s finished only my first year, I feel like school has taught me how to work and how to think. But the application that we do here as a clerk is very different than the application that you do in

Tony Simon:

School. Can you explain that?

Abbie Hoefer:

Yeah. So I feel like in school, your first year, you’re very focused on learning the law, even learning what a plaintiff is, just picking up on the kind of stepping stones of what you need, the knowledge that you need to have to solve the problem. And then you have one exam at the end of the semester that is basically you’re only application unless the professor provides more throughout the semester of that’s your only time that you really get a problem and apply the law in a clerkship. You’re constantly trying to learn the law and apply it. And so I think that as someone who’s only taken the six doctrinal classes as a one L, I think that I’ve been, intellectual property law is not really related to many of the classes that I took first year, but I think that law school teaches you how to think and how to learn. Clerkship is more on learning law that might be new to you, but using those application skills and putting them to the test.

Tony Simon:

Okay, makes sense.

Abbie Hoefer:

Writing

Isabella Gonzalez:

Is vastly different in practice than it is at school. And I say that

Tony Simon:

And it shouldn’t be.

Isabella Gonzalez:

Yeah, and it shouldn’t be. And I say that not because the writing classes didn’t help me, they did, but every attorney has a style of writing. We’re still developing that style. So it’s difficult, I think, to be learning how to develop your style while strengthening the skills that you had just picked up. So I think school gives you how she said, how I said the foundational skills to further advance these skills in your clerkship, I would say it gives you that first moment of dipping your toes into that. And then when you get to the clerkship, I think the biggest thing for me was the turnaround time on writing something, on putting something together. Because one of the first weeks here, how Abby mentioned prior, she was working on motion. Motion to a motion to dismiss. Motion to dismiss a response. A response. I was working on motion, a motion to transfer, and we took an entire semester to write one, one. Well, technically we wrote two, but still we wrote two briefs in one semester. And we were talking about how it was crazy to us that this happens in the blink of an eye.

Tony Simon:

You have two days.

Isabella Gonzalez:

One day I’ve done that. Yeah. So it was really, I mean it was stressful, but it was so fun because I said, oh my God, I’m so excited to put arguments down on a paper and to make this come together. So that was so thrilling for me. But the other half of that was, now I need to apply the writing skills that I’ve learned. And some of the writing skills you guys have just said, don’t do that, which I found interesting.

Tony Simon:

Yeah, that’s what I wanted to talk about. I think it’s terrible if in law school they’re teaching you how to use legalese. That’s the last thing you want when you’re writing to convince someone.

Sydney Marino:

I’m not allowed to use the word furthermore. Further.

Tony Simon:

Furthermore, here for school, we’re taught to use transitions

Sydney Marino:

In law school. Yeah.

Tony Simon:

Oh goodness. We’re

Sydney Marino:

Taught to

Abbie Hoefer:

Use transitions.

Tony Simon:

Make every word tell. Right.

Abbie Hoefer:

Something that I think is funny is in law school it was all like in this case, blank here, blank. But then I wrote my emotion for JR and he just deleted all of, I was like, okay, I’m not

Sydney Marino:

Going to do that. It’s a good skeleton. I think that’s a good way to look at it because, and that’s just a little bit of being out in the real world of doing it. I also think your writing will continue to change because it’s going to be changing for the court that you’re writing for the judge. Judge Doud gave a great seminar on his writing,

Tony Simon:

Right? Judge Jim down.

Sydney Marino:

I wrote every single word he said down because that really changed my mind on how to write and how to write for your audience and how to write as an advocate.

Tony Simon:

And he made the point, he’s an appellate court judge. He’s reading opinions and he said, make every word tell, say what you mean, mean what you say. And I think that’s just important because when you become an attorney, you have time limits, you have space limits, and you can’t make every argument. And so you only have so much space, so much real estate, and you have to make it count you. You’ll learn to get better at it. And as I’ve told other clerks, when you give me something and I redline it all over and you look at it and go, holy cow, it’s still a big help to have that first draft from you because for me, sit down and make that first draft would take me hours. That’s the hardest part. But once you have it together, it’s easier for me to edit it. So it is a big help.

Sydney Marino:

And I did want to give a preface for anyone that doesn’t know the typical structure of law school, especially your first year, I think second year and third year, it changes a little bit, at least at sl, it has your first six classes that you take. Typically what you’re graded on and what your GPA will be based on is one exam at the end of the year and it’s your final exam. And it’s typically maybe multiple choice, maybe all multiple choice,

Tony Simon:

Multiple choice

Sydney Marino:

Typically. Or an issue spotter, which is a written essay. You get a long fact pattern, maybe it’s three pages. That’s a story that the professor has come up with that intertwines so many different aspects of the law that you learned throughout that entire semester. And you write your argument about it and you have three hours or four hours to do so, and that’s what you’re graded on and it’s on a curve and you start at zero and you’ll add up as you go. How many points? So I think that’s a thing that people should know that that’s a lot of the pressure comes from that because you’re graded on one thing in the real world, you’re not given one chance. Obviously

Tony Simon:

That’s true. Although I will say it’s talking to a client, right? They come in with some three page story with lots of stuff and you have to sift through what’s important and what’s not. And that’s what I think that type of law school, a class I think is helpful from the real world

Sydney Marino:

And allows you to think on your feet. Also, I guess now moving, I’ve gone through my second year and I’ve been able, you can pick some classes. So they do an intellectual property concentration, which is sort of, I would describe that as picking a major almost, or a

Isabella Gonzalez:

Minors

Tony Simon:

Health law. There’s

Sydney Marino:

National,

Tony Simon:

This is at slu,

Sydney Marino:

This is at S sl, but at other schools they do. That’s different. I went to the University of Miami Law School for a sports and entertainment conference in the spring, and they have an entire school portion of their law school dedicated to sports and entertainment. So it just varies based on the school that you’re at. But like S sl, they have an intellectual property concentration. So I took intellectual property survey, I took trademark law in the spring. I took an IP licensing class as well. So you’re able to choose some classes based on after your first year, after your first year that are based on your interests. And I do think those definitely help a lot. And they were able, I’m glad I was able to take the practical knowledge that I gained and the experience I gained at working in my clerkship and apply that to classes that I’m actually interested in. I think that’s a big difference and helps a lot with school and helps a lot with your ability to do well in those classes.

Tony Simon:

Another reason to pick the firm you want to clerk for and do the research. So let’s end with one piece of advice you would give somebody maybe in their first year who’s considering a clerkship or considering law school even, especially since we have first generation, somebody who doesn’t have lawyers in their family. What’s your one piece of advice?

Abbie Hoefer:

My advice would be to take a deep breath and show up every day, ready to work hard and to learn. I think that just having that mindset can go a long way. Doesn’t mean that you’re going to be a hundred percent perfect a hundred percent of the time, but it means that showing up for yourself and showing up for the people that you’re working for is very important. And kind of just take a deep breath, work hard and always communicate. It would be my advice. My

Isabella Gonzalez:

Advice for a first year law student and LawClerk would be read the instructions and listen to what you’re told carefully, because that will make a difference in what you produce and put forward. Like Sydney mentioned on final exams, you have one shot in practice. That’s not necessarily true, but if you have one shot, you need to make it the best shot you possibly can give. And sometimes that comes with just reading, answering the question you were asked, because sometimes you don’t answer that. And that can translate into practice with writing a memo or providing a response to a research question and answering a completely different question than what you were asked. And I’ve done that myself. So that’s why I think it’s important to read the instructions and listen carefully to what questions you’re being asked. Okay. So I have

Sydney Marino:

Two pieces of advice. One, you

Tony Simon:

Only get one, go ahead.

Sydney Marino:

For someone that’s in law school or is starting law school, my advice would be to give yourself some grace and to understand that the hard work that you’re putting in will pay off even if it doesn’t feel like that, even if you encounter failures because you will, that will pay off eventually and that you’re doing it for a reason. And I think my piece of advice for someone that’s maybe wanting to go to law school or is applying for a clerkship is to do your research, because that’s going to be the biggest help, is the knowledge that you have about the school you’re going to, the field that you want to work in, the firm that you want to work for, the attorney you want to work for. Having that knowledge is the key to it and to succeeding at any of those places.

Tony Simon:

And my piece of advice is mean, what you say and say what you mean. And that is The. Jury is Out. Thank you for joining us.

Sydney Marino:

Thank

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