Tailoring Legal Clinics to Veterans’ Needs

Episode Notes

Transcript

Nicholas Hasenfus:
The toolkit provides legal aid organizations and others with a very powerful tool to stand up veteran clinics that is sort of battle tested based on the clinics that we have stood up and attended.

Announcer:
Equal access to justice is a core American value. In each episode of Talk Justice, an LSC podcast, we’ll explore ways to expand access to justice and illustrate why it is important to the legal community, business, government, and the general public. Talk Justice is sponsored by the Leaders Council of the Legal Services Corporation.

Will Gunn:
Hello. Welcome to Talk Justice. I’m Will Gunn, Vice President for Legal Affairs and General Counsel at LSC. Today we’re discussing a new resource to promote holistic legal services for veterans. As retired Air Force Colonel and former general counsel for the US Department of Veterans Affairs, I’m acutely aware that our veteran population needs support. LSC’s 2021 Justice Gap Survey showed that 76% of low income veteran households experienced at least one civil legal problem in the past year and 44% experienced at least five legal problems. Many of the challenges that veterans face in their lives after military service are related to civil legal issues. In fact, I served at VA for five years from 2009 to 2014 and while there I was involved in an initiative aimed at ending veteran homelessness. During that period, I learned something that has stayed with me. VA has a program called Project Challenge, which assesses the things VA is doing well with homeless or near homeless veterans and areas where there are still a lot of unmet needs.
Each year, VA compiles a list of the top 10 unmet needs for this population and they found that civil legal needs consistently dominate the list. One of the things that actually drew me to LSC is that LSC and its grantees are seeking ways to meet those needs. Specifically, veterans that don’t have the means to pay for an attorney can seek assistance from civil legal service providers and from pro bono clinics. I’m thrilled that LSC’s Veterans Task Force has created a new toolkit to promote veterans’ access to legal help. Joining me today to discuss this, we have two very knowledgeable guests. First, we have Nicholas Hasenfus, a Marine Corps veteran and partner at Holland & Knight in Boston. Nick serves as pro bono chair of Holland and Knight’s Veterans Group. He’s a former member of the ABA’s standing committee for legal assistance for military personnel. And he was also a member of LSC’s Veterans Task Force.
Stefanie Davis and I worked together in LSC’s Office of Legal Affairs. She serves as the deputy general counsel and ethics officer at LSC, and she has played a key role in managing LSC’s Veterans Task Force and its opioid task force. Before joining LSC, Stefanie spent 10 years as assistant general counsel at the US Department of Health and Human Services. Stefanie, I’d like to start with you. Can you explain the purpose of LSC’s Veterans Task Force and how it led to this toolkit?

Stefanie Davis :
Sure. Thanks for having me on the show today, Will. It’s really great to be here. So our board created the Veterans Task Force in 2020 with four goals in mind. The first goal was to identify ways to raise the awareness of the civil legal issues faced by veterans. The second was to identify ways to strengthen relationships between civil legal aid providers and other organizations that serve veterans that would include the VA, state and national veteran service organizations and other nonprofit and community organizations. The third goal was to identify and highlight programs that are models of providing effective integrated services to veterans. And the fourth goal was to recommend strategies for engaging pro bono attorneys to deliver legal assistance to veterans. As you know, there is this justice gap that shows that many veterans are not able to get enough or any legal assistance with their civil legal problems.
So recruiting pro bono attorneys to assist a critical goal of LSCs and was a critical goal of the task force. Several of the task force’s recommendations centered on improving collaboration among organizations serving veterans. Like LSC’s disaster and opioid task forces before it, the Veterans Task Force identified the need to break down silos that prevent all members of the community that works with veterans from talking to each other. LSC staff have continued to work with a small group of Veterans Task Force members to implement some of these recommendations. And it was this team that came up with the idea to develop a clinic model that would center on bringing attorneys, veteran service officers, and community partners together to serve veterans in one place and in a holistic manner.

Will Gunn:
Stefanie, we’re here talking about this toolkit that’s recently been released. Who did you work with to develop the toolkit?

Stefanie Davis :
I worked with some really incredible people to put together this toolkit. I worked with our internal subject matter experts on veterans legal issues, including you of course, two of our graduate law fellows in the Office of Legal Affairs, and the task force members who continued to engage with us on implementation. That includes colleagues from the law firms of DLA Piper who underwrote the task force and Holland and Knight, including Nick, who I’m so excited is here today too, from Paralyzed Veterans of America, from the staff at three LSC grantees, including Legal Aid of Arkansas and Georgia Legal Services Program and the team at Mission United Broward County.

Will Gunn:
Thank you. Nick, I want to say that there are a few people that I know of that have more of a track record with respect to working to meet the legal needs of low-income veterans than you. What are the primary legal issues that you found that veterans need assistance with?

Nicholas Hasenfus:
Thanks, Will, and thanks for having me here today. I typically bucket these into three categories. The first is discharge upgrades. So a discharge upgrade for folks who aren’t familiar with it is a formal legal process where a veteran petitions the military or DOD to change the characterization or reason for their discharge. Most folks have heard of an honorable discharge and a dishonorable discharge, but there are several others in between. And a less than honorable discharge can prevent a veteran from obtaining certain important benefits. A discharge upgrade can change or upgrade a less than honorable status to an honorable or general discharge, which helps unlock vital VA benefits, healthcare, and employment opportunities. The second is veterans benefits. So most folks have heard about this in relation to veterans’ legal work, but this consists of assisting veterans with legal issues related to VA benefits, including service connected disability, aid and attendance benefits, GI bill benefits, and others.
And it also includes state specific veteran benefits. So if you were here in Massachusetts, there’s a specific program for Massachusetts state benefits. And the third is non-veteran specific legal issues that veterans face. So this is kind of like a catchall for all state law issues or federal issues like landlord-tenant matters, employment matters, bankruptcy, family law and others.

Will Gunn:
So that third bucket, those are things that anyone, regardless of whether they’re a veteran, could experience. Is that right?

Nicholas Hasenfus:
That’s right. And some of them might have veteran angles to them. So there’s specific veteran issues related to bankruptcy and how service-connected disability plays, or some states have specific processes for veterans in eviction hearings, but they are legal issues that everyone is facing.

Will Gunn:
Thanks. Stefanie, compared to legal services for the general population, are there unique things to take into account when preparing a legal clinic specifically for veterans?

Stefanie Davis :
Yeah, I’d say yes. I think it’s important to understand that veterans have a background that those of us who have not served in uniform do not fully understand. So it’s essential that lawyers who are going to participate in a veteran’s legal clinic educate themselves about military and veteran cultures to help build trust with the veterans that they’re serving. I think it’s also important to understand that not every veteran identifies as a veteran and that some may have negative feelings about their service. That can happen when, for example, a veteran’s discharge status, as Nick just spoke about, is other than honorable, or if they’re a survivor of something like military sexual trauma or experienced PTSD as a result of their experiences during service. It’s also not uncommon for women in particular to not identify as veterans. So one thing you can do if you’re working at a legal clinic is instead of asking whether someone is a veteran is to ask them whether they’ve served in the military and that can get at the issue through a slightly different way.
And so I think it’s important to think about how you ask veterans about their service, particularly if the legal issue that they’re seeking assistance with is related to their service. Also, going back to something that Nic talked about, it’s important to think about and ask whether the veteran is engaged with the VA or is attempting to obtain VA benefits. And that’s because a veteran might already be working with a veteran service officer to address their VA benefits issues. It’s important for attorneys to ask veterans about this. And if the veteran has a VSO and is amenable, we’d encourage the veteran’s attorney to collaborate with the VSO to make sure that they’re addressing the legal and the VA issues in a holistic manner.

Will Gunn:
Thanks. Nick, have you found that legal services for veterans is an area where attorneys are eager to volunteer or is that a challenge?

Nicholas Hasenfus:
I think that most attorneys really want to assist veterans. What’s nice about this work is assisting veterans typically isn’t a political issue. Generally, regardless of an individual’s political beliefs, they still want to help veterans, and that’s not always the case with some legal aid work. Sometimes, particularly with non-veteran volunteer attorneys, they can be, I think, a little reluctant to volunteer to assist with veterans because they might not know the lingo. The military and veterans love to use abbreviations as Will you know or other sort of unique veteran issues and challenges they face similar to what Stefanie was just speaking about. But this is usually overcome with training and mentorship and just having someone there that can answer questions. And I always say this, I think it’s one of the most important things to say is that non-veteran allies are doing some of the best and most important work to assist veterans.
And that includes Stefanie who’s talking about all these issues and is a non-veteran and doing amazing things.

Will Gunn:
As I was listening to you, I was just reminded of the fact… Well, first of all, I was reminded of what Stefanie was saying about just the idea that people not identifying as a veteran. I wore a military uniform for a long time and the differences between things like Memorial Day and Veterans Day, that wasn’t always clear to me. In addition, a veteran, well, does that mean that somebody served in combat or that they’re out of the military? What does it mean? These terms, I think as Stefanie said, is something that’s very, very important and that is just ask people whether or not they’ve served. So that’s helpful. But Nick, specifically with what you were just saying, sometimes have you found some reluctance just because attorneys don’t feel that they’re competent to provide services outside their normal scope? Can you comment on that?

Nicholas Hasenfus:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that is always a little bit of a challenge, particularly at a large law firm like Holland & Knight. It can be hard sometimes for folks to go into a new practice area to provide pro bono legal services, particularly if they think that they’re unable to do so or have no background. There’s a lot of litigation-based opportunities, but there’s a lot of folks that don’t have litigation practice at all. So again, I think just providing some sort of training and mentorship, particularly with someone who’s experienced in the specific issue, really helps folks get comfortable with providing that service if they have someone that can look over documents that they can ask questions to, and that really helps encourage participation.

Will Gunn:
Great. Yo and I have worked together on veterans clinics now in Florida, Arkansas and Georgia in recent years. And the clinics where we’ve worked, they have served as his building blocks for this veterans legal clinic toolkit. With respect to that, what kind of impact do you think a clinic like that has on the veterans who attend?

Nicholas Hasenfus:
Free legal clinics play a vital role in ensuring that veterans can access the benefits and protections that they’ve earned through their service. Many veterans face significant barriers to legal help, particularly those in rural areas like where we had our clinics. This includes long distances to the nearest attorney, limited transportation, and of course the high cost of private representation, which can leave critical issues unresolved. As you mentioned, Will, LSE’s recent Justice Gap survey found that low-income veteran households did not receive any or enough legal help for 84% of their civil legal problems. That’s a lot. By bringing no-cost legal assistance directly into those underserved communities, legal clinics help close the justice gap, protect veterans from losing benefits that they’re entitled to, and honor the nation’s commitment to those who have served.

Will Gunn:
Can you talk about the impact that these clinics have had on the lawyers who donate their time? And make it personal if you can, what has been the impact on you?

Nicholas Hasenfus:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, many attorneys volunteering at clinics for veterans feel like volunteering reconnects them with the reasons they entered the profession, particularly those that are in private practice like myself. Helping a veteran secure benefits they earned, avoid eviction, or clear another legal obstacle delivers life-changing benefits for a veteran and their family, which can feel much better than a win in a complex commercial matter or negotiating a really big contract. For me personally, I’ve found that providing pro bono services for veterans, including volunteering clinics, really keeps me motivated to continue to do good and help others and really makes me feel like less of a sellout for being at a large law firm.

Will Gunn:
We need people at large law firms, so it’s all right. Nick, having attended these various clinics and such and been an advisor in these areas, do you have a veteran client story that stuck with you from your pro bono work?

Nicholas Hasenfus:
Yeah, absolutely. I have a bunch, but I think a good one is a veteran that I assisted was or is a Vietnam War veteran who was also a former POW, and he was facing a no-fault eviction. He lived at his residence with his wife, their daughter, and his mother-in-law for close to 10 years and was on a month-to-month lease, which is common, and always paid rent on time. The landlord still began eviction proceedings against the veteran. The veteran asked the landlord, “Hey, can I just have a few more months here so my daughter can finish the school year?” The landlord said, “Absolutely not. And by the way, you owe me thousands in damages to the apartment.” And then that’s when I got involved. And fast-forwarding to the results because that’s the best part. We were able to secure the residence for the veteran and his family until the end of the school year.
We were able to find a veteran-friendly third party to inspect the apartment to determine what, if any, damage was not atributable to the almost 10 years of wear and tear because the tenant isn’t going to be liable for wear and tear damages. The inspector found that all of the damages were attributed to wear and tear, so we had no damages to pay, which were great. We also worked with Easterseals to fund the moving costs for the veteran. And my very favorite part about this whole story is that we assisted the veteran with using the VA Home Loan Program and the veteran was able to purchase his first home for his family.

Will Gunn:
Wow. That’s beautiful. That is beautiful. Stefanie, what does it take to address veterans’ legal issues holistically? And what role do you see veterans legal clinics playing in addressing those needs?

Stefanie Davis :
It requires outreach, cooperation, and bridge building. It requires us all working together to support veterans. The clinic model that our team created was intended to encourage clinic organizers to do three things. One is to pre-register veterans so that you can assess their legal needs before the clinic. And that leads to the second part, which is recruiting veteran service organizations in particular and attorneys in the practice areas that were most needed that you identified through pre-registering the veterans. And then the third, and in my mind, most crucial part of our clinic model that addresses the holistic service is that the clinic organizer commits to providing veterans with warm handoffs to other service providers who will assist veterans with any needs that the clinic couldn’t meet. That might be a handoff to a clothing services provider. It might be a handoff to an educational services provider, and it could even be a warm handoff to another attorney if the veteran needs extended representation and that representation can’t be provided by an attorney at the clinic.
Warm handoffs are crucial to serving veterans holistically. They’re more than just a referral. They’re a person-to-person connection in which the attorney making the handoff introduces the veteran to the receiving provider and with the veteran’s consent shares the relevant information about the veteran’s need that the provider will help them with. Warm handoffs have two benefits. They make the connection directly. So it’s a human connection and it doesn’t require the veteran to make an additional call or call from a list of providers and maybe get shunted back and forth. It’s that direct connection. The second benefit of the warm handoff is that it allows for information sharing in a way that prevents the veteran from having to tell their story over and over again. This can be really helpful to prevent re-traumatization of a veteran whose need is related to some sort of trauma that they’ve experienced.

Will Gunn:
Thank you. Nick, we’ve all found that one of the biggest challenges that we have is just getting veterans in the door and making sure that they’re aware of services that are available to them. For instance, as Stefanie was talking about the holistic services and such, having holistic services don’t do you any good if the veterans aren’t aware of them and aren’t using them. What have you found to be the best way to get veterans to these legal clinics?

Nicholas Hasenfus:
It’s really helpful to have legal clinics at areas where veterans know how to get to. So this might be at the VA, a veteran center, place of warship, or other public location that’s easy to get to. If you can’t have a clinic at one of those places, it’s helpful to hold the clinic somewhere that’s easy to get to by public transportation and/or to arrange for transportation to the clinic location from other places that veterans know how to get to. So for example, at our clinic in Georgia, we held that at a veterans center and also partnered with a church that could provide veterans with no-cost rides to the clinic in their shuttle bus. We’ve also had other partners provide vouchers for Lyft and Uber, and that has also helped with getting veterans to the clinic. And the other important thing, and Stefanie mentioned this, is when veterans are pre-registering, that can help them identify the legal issues or issues they think that they have.
But sometimes when they’re coming to talk to us, they realize, “Hey, my employment issue is also a landlord tenant issue and also a VA benefits issue.” So being able to show a list of potential topics and subject matter expertise on the pre-registration form helps alert the veteran to say, “Hey, maybe I can get some more holistic services.” And that overall is going to be better representation for the veteran, help the veteran and their family a lot more.

Will Gunn:
Thank you. As we wrap up here, are there any closing thoughts that you all would like to offer? Stefanie, how about you?

Stefanie Davis :
I really have enjoyed working with you, Will, and you, Nick, and the rest of our team on the Veterans Task Force and on putting this toolkit together. I think it is an excellent resource for any organization that wants to serve veterans and serve them well to build those connections and to build those networks that will serve veterans in as holistic a manner as possible. And so I hope listeners check it out and put it to use serving veterans in their communities.

Will Gunn:
Since our purpose here today is a key purpose is making sure that people are aware of what the veterans toolkit is and how to access it, what would you say is the best way for them to do that?

Stefanie Davis :
The best way for people to access the toolkit is to go to our website at www.lsc.gov/vets-toolkit. That’s the most direct way to access

Will Gunn:
It. Thank you. Appreciate that. Nick, any closing thoughts?

Nicholas Hasenfus:
Just want to thank LSC for all the great work that LSC is doing, leading the charge in the US to ensure that low-income individuals receive access to justice and the civil legal aid that they need. I’ve been particularly lucky to work with you, Will and you, Stefanie, and I really appreciate all the hard work that you two are doing and the amazing leadership that you’re providing here. And just to piggyback off what Stefanie said, the toolkit provides legal aid organizations and others with a very powerful tool to stand up veteran clinics that is sort of battle tested based on the clinics that we have stood up and atended.

Will Gunn:
Thank you. I really appreciate that. Nick and Stefanie, I want to thank both of you for joining us today to highlight this great resource. You can find the toolkit linked in the description of this episode or at lsc.gov/vets-toolkit. That is lsc.gov/vets-toolkit. Thank you all of our listeners for tuning in to this episode of Talk Justice. Please subscribe so that you don’t ever miss an episode. Thank you.

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