A Better Perspective: How Mindset Shifts Can Enrich Life and Legal Practice

Episode Notes

Transcript

Molly Ranns:

Hello and welcome to another edition of the State Bar of Michigan’s On Balance Podcast on Legal Talk Network. I’m Molly Ranns.

JoAnn Hathaway:

And I’m JoAnn Hathaway. We are very pleased to have Laura Kelley join us today as our podcast guest. Laura is founder of LFK Immigration pa, which is the comprehensive boutique immigration firm in Doral, Florida. She is the South Florida Chapter chair of ala, which is the American Immigration Lawyers Association. Laura also serves on ALA’s National Board of Governors and is vice chair on ALA’s National Wellness Committee. In addition, Laura is a professional certified mindset coach and mindfulness instructor. She hosts a podcast called the Joyful Attorney, where she helps attorneys bring harmony and balance to both their practices and their lives. And with that, Laura, could you share some more information about yourself with our listeners?

Laura F. Kelley:

Yeah, absolutely. I am an attorney, as you mentioned. I’m an immigration attorney. I’ve been doing that for 10 years. I went to law school in San Francisco and then lived in Spain for seven years before coming back to the United States and starting my immigration practice and I became a coach back in 2020. And I am also running for state representative this year in my district in Doral, Florida.

Molly Ranns:

Well, welcome Laura. We’re so excited for you to join us today. To get started, could you share your journey into becoming a life coach for attorneys and what really inspired you to focus on this group in particular?

Laura F. Kelley:

Well, I started receiving coaching well before I decided to become a coach, and I think that’s really important is you have to know the value in coaching before you try to coach somebody. Some people think I just give really good advice, I’d be a great coach, but you really have to have experience. The benefits of coaching before I think going into being a coach, and that’s what happened to me. I got a podcast recommendation for a woman who is, her name is Cara Lowenthal. She has an amazing podcast, I’m not going to say the name on the air because there is a bad word in it, but you can look up car lowenthal and I found her coach, her name is Brooke Castillo. And from there I started her coaching program, which was absolutely transformative for me. It completely changed my life, it helped me manage my emotions, it helped me manage my time.

It made me a better lawyer, I think made me a better person. And so from there I said, I want to get coach certified because I want to spread the gospel of what coaching can do for attorneys and for others. And so I initially was actually going to go into wellness coaching, but if you recall 2020 being an immigration lawyer, I have a lot of immigration lawyer friends and colleagues. We were really suffering at the end of 2020 because of a lot of the policies that we were experiencing in the Trump administration. And I saw people saying that they were going to leave the profession. They were basically fed up. They couldn’t handle it anymore. And I thought, okay, this is a place where mindset could definitely help. And so I started by doing an eight week program for attorneys that dealt with things like time management, mindset and stress reduction. From there, my coaching business grew and eventually into a podcast.

JoAnn Hathaway:

In your experience, Laura, what are some unique wellness challenges that attorneys face compared to other professions?

Laura F. Kelley:

Well, I think that we have this idea of what an attorney is and what an attorney is supposed to be. We see this a lot in the media and pop culture. This is an attorney and a lot of attorneys, no matter whether they’re solo or they work for a big firm or they work for a small firm experience, a lot of imposter syndrome, maybe that they believe that they’re not as good as these pop culture figures that we see held up as examples of what a lawyer is. I also think in line with that, lawyers are expected to be exceedingly successful, and so any kind of a failure or disappointment or anything that is not success can be extremely detrimental to our wellbeing. And then another important thing to consider is the enormous amount of student loan debt that so many attorneys have. I think that can be extremely stressful, especially coupled with this idea that attorneys are supposed to be successful.

Molly Ranns:

You talk about the stress of being a lawyer, Laura, and so we certainly know about the studies and the high levels of stress and depression and anxiety and substance use issues amongst this population. How can attorneys effectively manage those high levels of stress and pressure that are associated with their work?

Laura F. Kelley:

Well, I think this is where a lot of self-awareness is required. I think that’s how coaching can be beneficial. Also, a huge proponent of therapy. There’s not a one size fits all scenario, and I think actually the more the better. So I think therapy can work in conjunction with coaching as well as self-help as well. In terms of managing stress, I think it’s very important to learn to manage our time. And when I say manage our time, we think we’re somehow trying to get more time in a day that’s not possible. So many of my clients are like, show me how to get more time. No, I can’t show you how to get more time, but I certainly can show you how to manage your time more effectively so that you can find points of improvement in your scheduling follow through, things like that. So being really clear about time management I think is extremely helpful for attorneys.

And it’s something that, especially in my generation, we haven’t been taught. I’m hoping that they’re teaching the newer generation about time management in law school, but at least for my generation, we were not taught time management. It can be extremely challenging and when you feel like you have so many tasks to do and not enough time to do it, that causes a great deal of overwhelm and burden and stress that I think is extremely negative, especially when the stakes are so high. So the idea of missing a deadline as an attorney, that’s unfathomable because the consequences both for our clients and our licenses are so steep. So they can add that layer of, I would say internal drama about time management as well. So that’s one major issue. I also think that sleep is so important. Probably the sneakiest tip I have is to make sure that you’re getting enough sleep.

And that’s a huge challenge for attorneys because we typically do have long work hours, long work days. A lot of attorneys, especially solo practitioners, feel like they have to be on call at all times and available for clients that can really eat into our personal time and our sleep time. So I think that sleep is tremendous and we know exercise is huge for stress, and I know again, this goes back to the time management piece and the sleep piece as well, which is it all works in conjunction together, but moving your body, being healthy, having a way of releasing stress through physical movement is so important. And as you mentioned in the introduction, I’m also a certified mindfulness instructor, so I have to sing the praises of mindfulness meditation, even if it’s something like five minutes a day or just breathing exercises. Learning to manage your mind through mindfulness is a huge way of reframing stress and actually finding relaxation processes during the day.

JoAnn Hathaway:

Laura, as Molly just pointed out, it’s no secret that being an attorney can be stressful. So what strategies do you then recommend for attorneys struggling to maintain a healthy work-life balance?

Laura F. Kelley:

I think first and foremost, they really have to determine what is the balance that they would like to achieve, right? Because not going to look the same for everybody. There are some people who really enjoy being there and available for their clients, and so they have no problem with being on call essentially. And I think it’s really important to respect that there are different ways of practice and different ways of living and one person’s work-life balance is going to be very different. It’s really important to notice or to note that 50 50 work-life balance is not what we’re looking for. And we have to determine for ourselves what the balance is going to be for us and our family and our personal lives in general. And so I think the first step is really deciding and envisioning what’s the life that you want? And once you have that, we can work backwards and say, okay, so what are the things that need to change so that I have more of this balance that I want?

And it also is about keeping perspective because I hear a lot from my clients and people I speak to that they want this work-life balance, but they also want to make a lot of money. They want to make a high salary. And it’s really important to keep in perspective, especially if you’re an employee, that balance may affect your bottom line and you have to be willing to make trade-offs that self-awareness key and that decision of what you really want for your life, what is the priority? Because I think we can get caught up in the idea that we can have it all or we should have it all. It’s important to have I think your feet on the ground and really understand there are going to be trade-offs in order to have work-life balance. And is that so important to you that you’re willing to make those trade-offs? Does that make sense?

Molly Ranns:

Absolutely. As a therapist, Laura, I love this conversation. I think it does all absolutely vital information. We are now going to take a short break from our conversation with Laura Kelley to thank our sponsors.

JoAnn Hathaway:

Welcome back. We are thrilled to be here today with Laura Kelley, immigration lawyer, professional certified mindset coach and mindfulness instructor, and also host of the podcast, the joyful attorney.

Molly Ranns:

All right, Laura, so here is a question that I’ve been wanting to ask. How important is mental health awareness in the legal profession and how confirms an individual’s really better to support this?

Laura F. Kelley:

I think mental health is vital in the legal profession and in the non-legal profession. But here that we’re talking about the legal profession, it is absolutely fundamental that we are contributing to our own mental health and people around us, their mental health as well. We’re not islands, we’re in this together. And in terms of what firms can do, it’s important to ensure that we include our support staff as attorneys, including our associate attorneys, if we’re law firm owners to include everybody in wellness programs. So right now, so many bar associations and bar attorney organizations have wellness programs. So we have the wellbeing committee in the American Bar Association, there’s a committee for wellbeing. I know that in so many different associations there’s a focus on wellbeing, but what we’ve noticed is that wellbeing is typically centered around attorneys, specifically the owners often. And we have to make sure that we’re including our entire staff in this because especially when it comes to immigration law where we’re dealing with very difficult topics, often we’re dealing with a lot of trauma from our clients and not only the attorneys but the support staff also, they’re hearing stories of violence and loss and we can experience vicarious trauma.

So it’s really important to include our support staff in any kind of wellness initiative. And I think having these wellness initiatives are so important and it shows your staff and it shows attorneys that you care and that you want to make sure that they’re taken care of. And this can look so many different ways from bringing in speakers or having events that are group events. There’s so many different ways that they can do this, but I would start with looking at what my local bar association wellness initiatives are or my professional associations wellness initiatives are and make sure that we’re including everybody in that the first week of May is what they used to call lawyer wellbeing week. I think we’re all trying to step away from that and say at least in ALA we called it, we’re calling it wellbeing in the law because we do want to be inclusive. And so I think that making sure that we are getting those resources for ourselves and for others around us is important and making sure that we’re actually sharing this. I think it’s important to share these tools on social media, including LinkedIn if we’re still on Facebook, because it not only gets the tools and resources out there to other people, but it shows others that this is important to me. So maybe this should be important to you as well. It’s almost like crowdsourcing or crowdfunding wellness to a larger group.

JoAnn Hathaway:

We’ve heard lawyers express feelings of unfulfillment at times in their practices. What advice do you have for those who might be feeling unfulfilled or burned out in their career?

Laura F. Kelley:

Well, I think that we’re not going to be fulfilled at all times, right? I think we have, again, this is that self-awareness piece and that reality piece and understanding that in life things ebb and flow, and there may be moments where we feel maybe not depressed or maybe it is depressed. And that’s important to check in with a mental health professional. And it’s important to recognize that a coach is not a mental health professional, so a therapist or psychiatrist is really important. To have those resources on hand when you’re not feeling fulfilled is recognizing that you can reframe. And we have down periods, we have difficult moments, but it’s can we find what we do like or what we do enjoy? And I recognize also that when we talk about lawyers, we’re talking about people in a vast type of practices. So you’re going to have nonprofit lawyers going to have law firm owners, you’re going to have associates, people who are in big law, who are in mid-size firms and small firms.

It really covers the gamut. And in terms of whether you feel fulfilled can also be where you are in the hierarchy. In law firms, I find that some people struggle with being in the middle or at the bottom of this hierarchy, especially perhaps as new attorneys and not necessarily calling the shots. And I think it’s important to recognize that there is a mindset issue there that we are always are empowered to find a different path, and that path can be in or outside of the law, but it’s also about recognizing where you can shift your own personal empowerment. And it would depend on each person and each practice, of course, what specific types of advice would be. But I always suggest is recognizing that your circumstances do not create your feelings. It’s your thoughts about your circumstances that create your feelings of unfulfillment. And so taking a look at what your circumstances are and what your thoughts are and parsing that out and see if there’s ways to change your thoughts and change your perspectives on what your circumstances are.

Of course, that’s the mindset coaching aspect. So that’s my jam, but I think that’s extremely important. And another piece is, again, going back to the idea of really determining what you want your life to look like, not only for work-life balance, but just as you envision yourself and your career going forward. Is it what do you see for yourself in the future? And can you use where you’re at right now to work towards that? So having a very clear vision is really important. And doing that vision and manifestation work, I’m a huge proponent of using vision boards, and I think it’s important not to use our current place as anything more than recognizing this is where we are now and how can we use this as a jumping off point in the future.

Molly Ranns:

That makes sense, Lauren. I love that so much. As a clinician, I’ve worked with lawyers for over a decade, and I have found that they really benefit from hands-on solution-focused tools that they can implement. Could you suggest some daily or even some weekly habits that could improve an attorney’s overall wellbeing?

Laura F. Kelley:

Absolutely. I think meditation is going to be the number one daily habit that can improve somebody’s wellbeing. I’m a major proponent of meditation, even something like five minutes a day and using a guided meditation. I know that some listeners may be saying, I don’t know how to meditate. I can’t meditate. My mind never turns off. And trust me, I feel you. I’m the same. I’m diagnosed. A DD meditation can be a challenge for everybody, frankly, everybody, but especially when you have a lot of racing thoughts and the idea is you’re not a good meditator because you can clear your mind. If we get to that point, awesome. But the idea of meditation really is just sitting and being present for whatever arises, including racing thoughts and trying to come back to the breath when we notice that those racing thoughts have started up again or never left.

So there’s no such thing as a good meditator or a bad meditator. The fact that you can’t shut up your mind does not mean that you can’t meditate. So I would urge people that even though they may have tried it in the past, not to give up on that as a resource, but I also understand that not everybody is into meditation. Not everybody wants to do that, and that’s totally fine because it’s not the only way I think, or the only strategy or daily habit that would be important. But even something like box breathing or any kind of breathing exercise, or maybe even just listening to music quietly, the idea is to really have a self-focused practice or habit on a daily basis where you get to know yourself and can be with yourself in a kind of quiet way. Again, the other habit I think, is making sure that we get seven to eight hours of sleep depending on your needs.

But I hear people sometimes say, I only need five hours. And I think I would question that belief. I would question that belief. I also think it’s important to, again, when it comes to daily habits, is ensuring that we’re adding eating nourishing food and also exercise as daily habits as well. To the extent possible, and again, this is all going to go back to the time management piece, but making sure that we are putting ourselves in our calendar as priorities. Because if we don’t, there’s far greater possibility that we will end up burnt out and unfulfilled. But when we can take the time and really put ourselves first, there are tremendous benefits for us. And so maybe we’re not trying to work out seven days a week, but getting to four to five days a week, putting that on the calendar is huge. Same thing with the meditation or any kind of other breathing practice. Putting it on the calendar as a habit helps you stay accountable to yourself and to have that follow through because we’re putting it on our calendar as an appointment with ourselves. So anything like that is going to be tremendous to start to make these little changes that help us just taking care of ourselves better.

JoAnn Hathaway:

Laura, how do you believe attorneys should approach and recover from setbacks or failures, both in and out of the Courtroom?

Laura F. Kelley:

Well, this one, I’ve had a wrestle with a lot as an immigration attorney that practices removal defense where the standards are very high and our clients don’t often have the cases or evidence that is going to meet those burdens all the time. You get really used to losing cases as an immigration attorney. And that was a very difficult thing for me personally to deal with because type A personalities, you want to win everything. And of course, with every single case that we get, we truly believe that in our clients and we try to do our best for them. And so it can be very devastating to lose, but when you lose a lot, you get used to it and it’s like, okay, I recognize that I say this with immigration lawyers, but I think it can work with a lot of different practices, is that we are not in control of outcomes as attorneys.

We have the law, we have judges in some cases, we have juries. We have so many different things that affect outcome that go far beyond our own powers, our own control. I always recommend that we keep, again, this reframing process of what our roles are. And the idea is, did we do our best? Can we find ways to improve and not take responsibility for outcomes that are really dependent on other factors? So when it comes to immigration law, for example, I always say my client’s karma is not my karma and I can only do my best. And there’s the law. There are specific factual circumstances, and then there’s the judge and there’s also the Department of Homeland Security. And all of these things work in conjunction to create an outcome. It is not on me either to save somebody or to lose a case, right?

That’s not dependent on me. And so I think that that’s an important reframing. And the other thing is there is no success without unquote failure. And I know we hate this word failure, especially type A or high achieving people, and a lot of lawyers fall into that bracket of high achieving this term. Failure can be like a knife in the heart. It’s really important, I think, to understand that failure is how we learn. Failure is how we grow. We have to be willing to take risks that may lead to failure in order to be successful. If you want to start a solo practice, you have to risk it not going well for you to grow and figure it out and be the best lawyer and person that you can be. So I think it’s important to reframe these issues as opportunities for growth rather than as failures or setbacks.

Molly Ranns:

Laura, can you speak to the importance of mentorship and community in the legal profession for personal and professional wellness?

Laura F. Kelley:

Absolutely. So I can say that my best friends are all immigration attorneys, and we also tend to work in the same geographic location. So that means we’re quote competitors, and yet we have each other’s backs in a way that so few other practice areas do. We share information and we are collegial, and it’s such an important part of our careers to have this community and to have this way of supporting each other, both professionally and personally. So I really recommend other practice areas to kind of take a look at how immigration attorneys do this and also do that for themselves. I think there is a scarcity mindset that some attorneys have that is they have to compete with all the other attorneys in their practice area, but I can guarantee you that no matter what the practice area is, there are plenty of clients for all of us, and we’re going to gel different potential clients differently than other attorneys.

And not every client is for us, and we don’t want every client either. So I think it’s important to reframe other attorneys as collaborators rather than competitors. Now, I know this is different when we get into the Courtroom, but again, this is that idea of remaining civil and remaining collegial no matter what happens, because you never know who you may need to call on later. And creating this sense of community is so important because so few people truly understand what life is like as an attorney, then another attorney in your same practice area, in your same geographic location. And so having those opportunities is huge. And also their networking opportunities. My number one referral source for new clients is other attorneys. So they say, I don’t take this case, but I know Laura takes this case. And the same thing. Maybe you have a potential client that doesn’t really fit with your practice, but you know somebody who does. That’s someone you can send off to someone you trust. And again, this sense of community and collaboration I think really is nourishing and helpful, and it benefits us as a whole to keep that mindset of giving and service to others, not just our clients, but also our legal community because we really need it.

JoAnn Hathaway:

Laura, what emerging trends or challenges do you foresee in attorney wellness? And to expound on that, how should attorneys and firms prepare for these?

Laura F. Kelley:

Well, I think there’s a trend toward incorporating wellness into not only our bar associations, our professional associations, our networking groups, but also law firms. And so I think that that trend is going to continue, and I definitely think that the sooner that law firms can get on the ball with that, the better because we want to ensure that we have healthy attorneys and healthy support staff in our organizations. Another emerging trend is a greater emphasis on work-life balance, especially in this newer generation. And I know a lot of older attorneys are, maybe I shouldn’t say older, and I’m referring to myself by the way, but maybe attorneys who’ve been practicing for a longer amount of time feel that they went through this almost like this hazing process, or they had to go through this the way law was before and can have some resistance to the changing structure of law firms and what’s expected of lawyers.

And I really urge people who’ve been practicing for longer amounts of time to recognize that this new generation has different priorities and they prioritize work-life balance. And yes, that might come at a trade-off, which is probably lower salary, but this idea of working these extreme long hours, I think is on the way out eventually. I know we’re still there at a lot of big firms, but this idea that your life belongs to your career, I think that is changing, and I think that’s for the better. And I think the more that we can embrace different types of work type, it really gives us a lot of benefit because there are some really great attorneys who just want to work 40 hours a week, and I think that’s perfectly reasonable, and we have to find a way to make room and make space for, again, different priorities and how we want to work and how we organize our lives.

JoAnn Hathaway:

Well, it does look like we’ve come to the end of our show. We’d like to thank our guest today, Laura Kelley, for a wonderful program.

Laura F. Kelley:

Thank you so much for having me.

Molly Ranns:

Laura. If folks want to follow up with you personally, what’s the best way to reach you?

Laura F. Kelley:

Yeah, I highly recommend emailing me. That’s the best way to reach me. My email address is Laura, L-A-U-R-A at L as in Larry, F as in Frank, K as in kilo immigration.com. So that’s [email protected].

Molly Ranns:

Laura, thank you again. This is been so helpful. I am excited to take some of these tidbits back and put them to practice. This has been another edition of the State Bar of Michigan On Balance Podcast.

JoAnn Hathaway:

I’m JoAnn Hathaway.

Molly Ranns:

And I’m Molly Ranns. Until next time, thank you for listening.

Speaker 4:

Thank you for listening to the State Bar of Michigan On Balance Podcast, brought to you by the State Bar of Michigan, and produced by the broadcast professionals at Legal Talk Network. If you’d like more information about today’s show, please visit legal talk network.com, subscribe via Apple Podcasts and RSS, find the State Bar of Michigan and Legal Talk Network on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn, or download Legal Talk Network’s free app in Google Play and iTunes. The views expressed by the participants of this program or their own and do not represent the views of, nor are they endorsed by Legal Talk Network or the State Bar of Michigan or their respective officers, directors, employees, agents, representatives, shareholders, and subsidiaries. None of the content should be considered legal advice. As always, consult a lawyer.