State Bar of Michigan NEXT Conference 2018: The 2018 Legal Trends Report

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Transcript

State Bar of Michigan: On Balance Podcast

State Bar of Michigan NEXT Conference 2018: The 2018 Legal Trends Report

09/28/2018

[Music]

Intro: Welcome to State Bar of Michigan’s On Balance Podcast, where we talk about practice management and lawyer wellness for a thriving law practice with your hosts JoAnn Hathaway and Tish Vincent, here on Legal Talk Network.

Take it away, ladies.

[Music]

Rob Mathis: Hello and welcome to another edition of the State Bar of Michigan’s On Balance Podcast on the Legal Talk Network. I am Rob Mathis, pro bono service and justice initiatives counsel with the State Bar of Michigan. I have two co-hosts Samantha Meinke and Laurence Colletti, and our special guest Jack Newton.

Samantha, would you like to introduce yourself?

Samantha Meinke: Hi everybody. I’m Samantha Meinke. I’m the Communications Manager for the State Bar of Michigan and I’m an MBA student. I’m really excited to be here today.

Rob Mathis: And Laurence.

Laurence Colletti: My name is Laurence Colletti, I am the Executive Producer for Legal Talk Network and sometimes I blog.

Rob Mathis: All right, and Jack.

Jack Newton: I am Jack Newton, I’m the CEO and Founder of Clio, which is a cloud-based practice management system.

Laurence Colletti: Excellent, so Rob, should we open it up, ask about the presentation?

Rob Mathis: Please.

Laurence Colletti: Excellent. So, Jack we were just at your keynote address, so we opening up the State Bar of Michigan’s NEXT conference and you presented at the keynote it was titled The 2018 Legal Trends Every Michigan Lawyer Must Know. So I think probably a good place to start just in general 50,000 foot, what was that all about?

Jack Newton: Sure, so the opening keynote was really focused on data and some of the really interesting data that we’ve produced in the Legal Trends Report, which is a report that we put out at Clio every year that’s essentially a benchmark state-of-the-industry report for legal where we can look at things like key performance indicators for law firms, we can look at the average billable rate, we can look at per state and per practice area benchmark data, and essentially, distill in that presentation a message around how lawyers can actually leverage that data to be more data-driven and to take advantage of this data to hopefully run more successful law practices.

Samantha Meinke: So, were you saying you can’t successfully run a law practice today without having data to drive it?

Jack Newton: I think there’s lots of examples of lawyers that may succeed despite themselves where they’re not leveraging data in their law firm, but I think in every law firm that’s successful without using data, there’s an opportunity to be more successful, if they properly leverage data.

And I think there’s a lot of law firms that are struggling that could leverage data to become more successful or to become successful in the first place.

Rob Mathis: So we are — nowadays, there are a lot of law firms have the billable hour and it seems like the law firms are — many are moving away from that. So how does Clio play into the — maybe the set fee for a case?

Jack Newton: Sure. One of the pieces of data we look at in this report is actually what is the relative prevalence of fixed fee versus hourly billing? And I think while many lawyers realize that they should be moving toward fixed fee services and that’s in fact what many consumers are demanding of or expecting of lawyers, many of them are still defaulting to the billable hour because it’s what they know.

So, I think that that’s one piece of data from the report is that the shift to fixed fees is still in very, very early days. Most law firms are still firmly entrenched in the billable hour world. And, one of the things we try to do in this report is number one, highlight the pitfalls of the billable hour and we’ll talk about that I’m sure later in the podcast.

But also set lawyers up for the hard work of actually figuring out how do I do fixed fee services and one of the things we talked about in the report is what is the average and the median case value for all sorts of different practice areas and furthermore, what is the 10th percentile and the 90th percentile from a spread perspective on what the case values for about 25 different practice areas look like.

And law firms can use that data to A, benchmark themselves against but also start to understand how might I package up my services, so I can capture an appropriate profit by way of delivering fixed fee services? And it’s a tough nut to crack and it’s got to be a data-driven process and if you’re not data-driven in setting up those fixed fee services, you’re setting yourself up for potential calamity.

Laurence Colletti: So, Jack, one of the most interesting things I remember when the Legal Trends Report first came out was the source of this data. I know that was a little bit controversial because people didn’t quite understand how it was collected but I think that that’s the value, this is coming from real firms, real practitioners and it’s spread across a variety of practice fields in all the states. So maybe we could start with that, I think that would provide the listeners a little bit of value in terms of where this information is coming from.

(00:05:03)

Jack Newton: Sure, that’s a great question. The Legal Trends Report comes from anonymized and aggregated statistics across Clio’s US-based customer base. We have a 150,000 legal professionals around the world that use Clio and the data in the Legal Trends Report is based on a subset of about 60,000 law firms in the United States that are using Clio.

And we anonymized and aggregated the data from all of the law firms that did not opt out of this Legal Trends Report and by doing that, we’re able to take advantage of the fact that there’s $4 billion a year of billing volume that flows through Clio that we have an unbelievable opportunity to generate insights from; including basic insights like what are the average billing rates per practice area, what are average billing rates per geography, what are billing rates for lawyers and non-lawyers alike across the entire United States and how are those key performance indicators trending over time?

So it’s — this unbelievably valuable source of information that again by anonymizing and aggregating the data, we can preserve the absolute confidentiality of any individual law practice that happens to be using Clio but provide this service back to the industry essentially, to understand how they benchmark against other lawyers in their geography, other lawyers in their practice area, and ultimately or hopefully, serve as a call to action to the industry to some of these problem areas that are really harming the potential success of not just law firms as individuals, but law firm the legal space as a whole.

Samantha Meinke: Something I noticed when I sought through your keynote, Jack, is that in Michigan, in particular, a lot of lawyers are having a hard time billing in a timely manner and I wondered if you could talk to us a little bit about that and how they could look at improving that for their firms.

Jack Newton: Absolutely. I think one of the more devastating stats that came out of the presentation that was tailored for Michigan-based lawyers was number one, the length of time it takes Michigan lawyers to generate bills is around 180 days after they actually performed a work-related to that bill.

Samantha Meinke: Wow.

Jack Newton: So — and it’s a double whammy because their clients, I think sensing the lack of urgency perhaps in the whole billing cycle 07:26 take up to 180 days to pay after they’ve received the invoice as well, creating the better part of a year essentially in receivables gap between the time you generated the work and the time you actually got paid for that work.

So, it’s a — number one, a devastating cash flow problem that bridging that gap is going to take loans if you’ve got staff anything else, where’s that cash flow coming from, you’ve got to find some other source and I think the really disappointing part of that cycle too is we’re missing out in an obvious opportunity to capitalize on the clients’ willingness to pay which is at its highest when they’re at the peak of what Jay Foonberg calls the client appreciation curve.

So, that client appreciation curve peaks when you’ve delivered your work products essentially and you’ve handed those keys to a new house or you’ve handed that finished will or you’ve handed that incorporation document to your client and really the second document in that stack should be your invoice and your bill ready to get paid, ideally by credit card by the way, and we can talk about that later as well.

But that’s when you should be invoicing your client, and instead, lawyers wait on average again 180 days to do that invoice, the client appreciation level has dissipated now, it drops off really fast and it’s now down at zero essentially and that’s when they get their bill, and they’re just not as willing to pay it as they would have been 180 days previous.

The other Michigan-based stat that we saw that was really devastating as well as Michigan has got the worst collection rate in the country at 72%. And what collection rate means for the listeners that might not be familiar with the term is what percentage of the bill that you sent your client actually gets paid.

And embedded in that statistic is the fact that Michigan lawyers have a 28% bad debt rate which means that if you’re sending out a bill for a $1000, you’re going to get $720 of that bill paid on average, and that’s just devastating from an economic perspective.

Samantha Meinke: Absolutely.

Rob Mathis: So why are attorneys waiting 180 days to bill their clients? Do we know?

Jack Newton: I think we do and the reason is that they’re busy and they put off what seems like non-essential work. When you get back to your desk after you’ve handed those keys or the will document or the incorporation document to your client, you sit back down at your desk and you’ve got your next client phoning you, you’ve got your next piece of work, you’ve got your next limitation date ticking down and the easiest thing to put off is the things like generating and sending out a bill.

(00:10:05)

And, we know that from just the behavioral aspects of what we see in customers when we interview them and ask that very question and it’s also I think a byproduct of lawyers in general not being great businesspeople and it’s by no ill will to be not great businesspeople, it’s just that they are not I believe properly trained in law school on how to be good businesspeople and understanding the billing cycle, understanding cash flow, understanding that idea of the client appreciation curve I think should be taught in every law school, but it’s not.

So the average lawyer graduates from law school understanding how to be a great lawyer nobody talks to them about the aspects of what running a successful business looks like. And rule number one in running a successful business is get paid, if you want to — if you want to —

Samantha Meinke: But —

Jack Newton: If you — yeah I know what the audience is now reeling and I ask lawyers very basic questions all the time, do you understand what ROI means, do you understand what a KPI, a Key Performance Indicator is, do you know what NPS is, and hands don’t go up in the room. I’ve asked that question in now hundreds of presentations across my 10 years of being in the legal space and I think one key takeaway learning for me is just lawyers need a lot of help when it comes to running successful businesses, that’s part of what we view our mission at Clio as doing, that’s one of the reasons we produce the Legal Trends Report, it’s one of the reasons we make the software we do, it’s one of the reasons we spend a lot of energy and time and money educating and running webinars and running our own conference even is to get the word out in terms of you’re a great lawyer, we’ll help you be a great businessperson and help you make money and help you run a successful practice.

Rob Mathis: So I might embarrass myself here but I knew the first two but, NPS, I am raising my hand.

Jack Newton: Sure, sure. Yes, yes, well, thank you for the honesty.

Rob Mathis: Yeah.

Jack Newton: The Net Promoter Score is what NPS stands for and it’s one of the questions I ask when I talk about, do you monitor client satisfaction as part of your legal service delivery cadence, and do you use it to iterate on how you are delivering your legal services?

One of the things I talked about in the presentation is an idea we talk a lot about Clio, which is the legal flywheel, how the flywheel in legal is really based on your reputation referrals word-of-mouth and two-thirds of all business that lawyers get is based on referrals either from another lawyer or from one of their clients.

And understanding how important referrals are should be top of mind for every lawyer and if you care about referrals and you care about essentially your brand reputation, if you are solo you’ve got a brand and you’ve got a reputation, the way you measure that is what’s called Net Promoter Score, which is the one question that many of us been asked in many surveys by many companies which is based on your overall experience with Blank, how likely would you be to recommend it to a friend or colleague.

So that is a simple question, you respond on a scale of 0 to 10 and you get the Net Promoter Score by subtracting the percentage of people that say 8, 9 or 10, from the percentage of people that say, 0 to 6, and those are your promoters minus your detractors and that gives you a percentage.

It ranges obviously from minus a hundred to a hundred and world-class companies best-in-class NPS is around 70 or 80. So Apple, Amazon, these kinds of companies have ratings of 70 or 80. Lawyers should be monitoring NPS and should be tracking. Some of the best firms I work with, Patrick Palace’s firm is an example in Washington. He religiously monitors NPS. Every time he closes a case he sends out a survey to customers asking how did you feel about your total experience and how likely are you to recommend me?

And there’s a comment field by the way, the second question of that two question survey is why did you give me this score and that’s an unbelievable opportunity to iterate and get useful feedback. You might find out what you’re doing wrong, what you’re doing right, what you should double down on, and what you should fix, and I just think that’s something that every law firm should have as part of their basic operating system that almost no law firms do.

Again, I was speaking to a group of 100 lawyers just last weekend and asked that very question who knows what NPS is and not a single hand went up, and I think it’s this idea that you should ask a client how they felt about your service delivery to them is almost anathema to lawyers like they look at me like on my head screwed on backward sometimes.

Samantha Meinke: They are the experts, right?

Jack Newton: Yeah, I’ll tell the client how I did. It was amazing, I think there’s this lack of understanding almost about how important the client experiences and how subjective the client experiences, and you need to ask the question in a very vulnerable way to get useful feedback.

We asked that question of all of our customers at Clio on a very regular basis and I’ll tell you, some of the NPS feedback makes my day. I’ll get a ten out of ten and read about how they love Clio and I’ll read the 0 out of 10 NPS feedbacks with just devastating feedback sometimes, sometimes it’s fair, sometimes it’s not, but we incorporate every single one of those — it’s a feedback into how we deliver our service, how we build our software, and we try to iterate and we’ve been able to march that NPS up really steadily over time by listening, and it’s something I think lawyers should be doing more of.

(00:15:19)

Laurence Colletti: It’s probably a downward trend, the longer you wait to build a client because the attorney probably thinks, well, I was successful whatever that means.

Jack Newton: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, it would be the way lawyers do it today. It would be like you getting an invoice for the car you bought, half a year after you bought it, as opposed to paying for it before you drive it off the lot, and that’s absolutely the way that lawyers should be thinking about their work. They should be getting retainers upfront.

One of the things I talked about on the presentation is how getting a retainer up front not only increases your collection rate, which I think is obvious, but it also increases your realization rate, which I think is a less obvious observation. Your realization rate which I haven’t in this podcast yet is your billable work minus any discounts or write-offs you might apply to your bill.

So, the average realization rate in Michigan is around 80% but that means that there’s about 20% of discounting that happens on bills on average and we see that discounting go way down when there’s an upfront retainer paid. I think because both the lawyer and the client kind of understand like we’ve got a mutual agreeing on what mutual agreement rather on what this service is going to cost. I am not going to discount myself because we were to agree to it. In the same way that you drive that car off the lot fully understanding what you’re paying for that car, and again, what would the collection rate be for car dealerships if they invoice their client six months after they’ve been driving that car.

It’s got dings in it, it’s not as great as I thought it was going to be, I didn’t pick up the girls I thought I’d be able to, whatever the case — whatever the case might be for buying a car, you’re probably less happy with it six months in than you were on day one.

Laurence Colletti: Very true, very true.

Samantha Meinke: This makes me think of something else you talked about that I think is so important that I think a lot of lawyers work on their websites and they boost their résumés and they make sure they have that good headshot, but you mentioned that something else is really important to clients, and I am hoping you could talk a little about that.

Jack Newton: Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the bits of survey work we did in the 2017 Legal Trends Report that I spoke about today was in addition to the data piece where we looked at actual Clio billing volume data to generate these key performance indicators and benchmarks and insights, we also performed a survey of 3,000 lawyers and 2,000 consumers to understand how lawyers think about consumers, but more importantly, how consumers think about lawyers and how they find lawyers and how they choose the lawyer they’re going to work with.

So, number one, we found that the most important source of business for lawyers in terms of how consumers actually find them is by referrals, either from another lawyer or from a friend or colleague and that accounts for an enormous amount of new business for law firms. The thing is that law firms may not always understand that it’s a direct or second-order referral that’s getting them business but we were able to understand that data from the consumer’s side. and I think that’s contrary to where a lot of lawyers said they were spending money on marketing on things like Yellow Pages ads, lawyers are still spending money on Yellow Pages ads and I haven’t seen a Yellow Pages on my doorstep in years and for the years I got it before that, I just put it immediately in the recycling bin. People don’t look at Yellow Pages. They are spending money on billboards. They’re spending money on out of doors advertising on bus benches and so on — and —

Samantha Meinke: Television ads —

Jack Newton: Television ads — and these in general are just not as effective as from an ROI perspective certainly as word-of-mouth and referrals. And that’s one of the reasons we talk so much about NPS.

Now, in terms of how you choose a lawyer after you’ve maybe got your shortlist of four-five lawyers that you’ve been referred or maybe you’ve got one that you saw on the TV ad that seems like you must be really good at his job, how do clients actually choose lawyers, and this was the second super-interesting insight, which is, I think if you talk to the average lawyer what they are spending their energy on is positioning themselves on their website, building a great looking website, getting a really great headshot, talking about the fact that they graduated the top their class at some high-end law school and it turns out that clients in general just don’t care about that at all.

What they care about is that you are responsive, that’s far and away, number one, they want free initial consultations and they want to know what the bill is going to cost, they want fixed fee representation, and when you look at those three things, it’s actually almost the opposite of what most lawyers are ranking in terms of what they think is most important.

And these are all really easy things for lawyers to optimize for — I think I forgot to mention one of the top items for consumers as well was free initial consult.

(00:20:00)

So they want to get in touch with you fast and this for the next generation of legal consumers, the Millennial Generation which we talk about a lot, but understand that Millennials are now the single largest purchasing generation on the planet. So they are de-facto going to be the largest purchasers of legal services, either now or in the in the immediate future.

Their expectations when it comes to response times is on the order of minutes and hours not the days and weeks that many lawyers measure response times, if they respond at all than other separate problem is that many lawyers don’t respond to inbound business inquiries at all. But when we do respond to these consumers that are interested in legal services we need to be measuring ourselves on the order of minutes or hours and we need to make sure we have answering services, we need to make sure we have automated processes wrapped up around our intake process.

The best-run law firms I have seen actually have dedicated intake people that are working full-time on intake and being hyper-responsive to inbound enquiries, working through a methodical questionnaire identifying what are the best cases for the firm to be taken on and creating this high level of client satisfaction where they feel like they are being treated with rapid response even if it’s not the actual lawyer talk to them. I think it’s another common misconception as lawyers think it needs to be me having all the conversations, it doesn’t; you can train up staff to have these conversations and create that high level of responsiveness.

That free initial consultation, again that can be with intake staff helping walkthrough the checklist. If you are for example looking at personal injury law the intake person might just be walked into your checklist, when did this happen, oh it happened two-and-a-half years ago, I am sorry you’re passed the Statute of Limitations, we can’t help you out. You have been responsive, they’ll still probably rank you highly if they had to give you an NPS score, you were just responsive, direct, and they got their answer quickly, and that’s what clients care about.

Laurence Colletti: Jack, during your presentation you dropped a couple of Peter Drucker quotes, one of my favorites, and I think this kind of gets back into lawyers not necessarily being the best managers of their business but you said what gets measured gets managed. And so in spirit of that and I think that might take away from some of this especially since when you first announced the Legal Trends Report, you guys had a pretty abysmal number that was reported, what’s that?

Jack Newton: That’s right.

Laurence Colletti: Six hours of an eight-hour day on average is not used on billable activities, and so that like woke a lot of people up, and I think at first everyone was pretty shocked but then they thought — they started thinking about it and lawyers are smart people – you know what, actually that sounds about right, and that was kind of the universal reaction —

Jack Newton: Yeah, it was a really interesting response we got at the first Clio Cloud Conference that we dropped this bomb on the audience, this kind of devastating stat, and I remember vividly the response in the audience was, number one, this kind of leaning back everyone took in a sharp breath of air like in disbelief almost at the number and then a half beat later people kind of thought about it, thought about their own days, thought about what they actually bill on an annual basis and they started nodding in recognition that this number is actually correct.

What’s interesting is if you tie that number one of the things we did to verify the data and make sure that we had conviction around the numbers we were presenting was obviously we triple-checked all the calculations we were running out of this anonymized and aggregated data coming out of Clio, but we also did some research to make sure that other data sources corroborated this finding.

So, one of the things we did is looked at the average billable rate, looked at the whole funnel, the utilization rate — realization rate and collection rate, figured out that based on all of this data what should the average solo small firm lawyer be making and validated this tied in exactly with the data we could see published from census data, from the IRS on solo small firm income as well.

So, as devastating as it is it’s supported by all the other data in the space and when we talk about the average solo and small firms struggling, the thing we were able to hone in on and pinpoint as the biggest problem area was this utilization rate which on average is only 23%, meaning that, out of a eight-hour workday which is probably an optimistically short workday for most lawyers, but call it an eight-hour workday, only two hours of that workday are getting billed and the other six hours, which we call the case of the missing six hours was a big question mark, where is that time going?

And we know lawyers are saying they’re busy, they are not twiddling their thumbs, they are not going home early at the end of the day, they are slammed, but out of a slammed busy day they are only getting two billable hours of work out of it.

Laurence Colletti: Well, you guys just a quick follow-up but — and I want to leave the audience with some specifics. I think that will help kind of guide, attorneys making better decisions and in the Legal Trends Report what are some of your favorite KPIs (Key Performance Indicators), what are some of the favorite facts and statistics you think are valuable for successful firms?

(00:25:04)

Jack Newton: Yeah, absolutely. So, number one, the utilization rate and this case the missing six hours, if you are looking at what’s the one thing I can do to help increase my productivity and help make my law firm more successful, it’s figuring out a way to drive that utilization rate from 23% to 40% or 50%.

The way you do that is by, number one, embracing technology wholeheartedly and making technology a really integrated part of your practice that streamlines your work as much as possible and automates many of the things that we see people spending far too much time on, on the administrative and overhead side of things.

The second thing that you can do to help capture some of that lost time is just take advantage of outsourced services like Ruby Receptionist, for example, to create that high level of response in this clients are looking for and it has the dual benefit of shielding you from those interruptions that that kind of break apart the productivity of your day while providing what we know clients value most which is a high level of responsiveness.

The second takeaway that I will talk about from the report that I thought was one of the more kind of low-hanging fruit items lawyers could do, is allow clients to pay them by credit card and allow them to pay via payment plans. So, we see this — this catastrophically long billing cycle of 180 days to issue a bill 180 days for the client to pay the bill, make sure you are using a system, you are using a practice management system whether it’s Clio or Rocket Matter or MyCase or some other system to capture time and bill your time concurrently with the work product you are delivering, it’s as simple as that. And your receivables time will be shorter, your collection rate will be higher, allow your clients to pay by credit card because if you’re billing the average millennial, they don’t have a checkbook. If they do have a checkbook, they’ve lost it.

The last time I had to pay for someone by check I had to look for two days for my checkbook realized that I used up the last check half a year ago and then wait two weeks to order a new set of checks from my bank like I literally have to write maybe one check a year these days and I certainly don’t want to be writing it for my lawyer, allow them to pay by credit card.

You eat 2% or 3% in fees, yes, but it’s so worth it because you are getting paid faster and you are making your clients happier and you are making it more effortless for them and you are helping it make more likely that they will pay you. Understand your client’s financial situation. It’s so easy with many of these software packages to create payment plans where your clients can pay you overtime. Be more innovative in your payment model and if you have a $2,000 bill that you can see your client is going to struggle with, offer the opportunity to pay that down over three months, six months, a year.

Samantha Meinke: If your billing cycle is 360 days why not get a little bit upfront and then some of the time.

Jack Newton: Get that upfront, absolutely. So, very, very straightforward, easy things.

The last thing I’ll say is, this flywheel is at the heart of how law firms need to grow and how you start building a law firm that will see accelerating and compounding growth over the many decades you will be running a law firm. So understand this flywheel concept.

If you missed out on the keynote, you can read more about all of these stats in the report by downloading the Legal Trends Report, which is free, just Google “Clio Legal Trends Report”, it’s free of charge and understand that you need to be surveying your customers about NPS.

You need to be client-focused as mundane and this is obvious as that sounds many lawyers are not client-focused when they are thinking about how they are designing their legal service delivery and it’s one of the big things we think that needs to change in the legal space.

So, those are a handful of the big takeaways that I think are actionable and some of them are obviously heavier lifts but some of them are so easy, there’s no excuse not to be doing them.

Samantha Meinke: Jack, if people want to learn some of this in person from you, is there any way in the next week or so they could do that?

Jack Newton: I am so glad you asked that question, Sam. We have the Clio Cloud Conference coming up next week in New Orleans, October 4th and 5^th. We are going to have around 1,500 people congregate in New Orleans for what is the biggest legal technology conference in North America. Laurence, you have been there several, several times —

Laurence Colletti: Oh yeah.

Jack Newton: And I’m sure can attest to the energy level and the excitement on the floor there. It’s a group of innovative lawyers, legal professionals, entrepreneurs, legal-tech companies, and it’s something that’s much bigger than Clio, although it’s called a Clio Cloud Conference.

(00:29:58)

One attendee last year called it The Burning Man of Legal Technology. There’s not enough recreational drugs being done to truly qualify as a Burning Man Festival, but it’s a great time, it’s really high-energy, and we’ll be rolling out the 2018 edition of the Legal Trends Report where we’ll be digging even deeper into some of these consumer research questions and helping bridge this chasm between lawyers and clients, and hopefully, giving lawyers guidance on how they can ultimately be more successful.

Samantha Meinke: Fabulous.

Jack Newton: Thank you.

Rob Mathis: Alright. So, Jack, before we close out this podcast if listeners would like to follow up with you, how can they get in touch with you?

Jack Newton: Sure. I’m — maybe easiest to get hold of me on Twitter, I’m Jack_Newton. Feel free to hit me up on Twitter. Email is [email protected] and always happy to answer any questions that folks might have.

Rob Mathis: Alright. Well, that’s all the time we have for this podcast. Thank you Jack Newton for being here today. I also want to thank Samantha Meinke from the State Bar of Michigan and Laurence Colletti from Legal Talk Network.

If you like what you heard today, please rate us in the Apple Podcasts. I am Rob Mathis, we’ll see you next time for another episode of the State Bar of Michigan’s On Balance Podcast on Legal Talk Network. Thank you.

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