Diary of an In-House Marketing Director

Episode Notes

Transcript

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Conrad, what are you grateful for today?

Conrad Saam:

What am I grateful for? This is a good segue. I’ve got my Michigan hat on because we didn’t lose last weekend

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Miraculously because we didn’t play.

Conrad Saam:

Do you want to? Okay, there’s the punchline. You know what? Your speak of gratitude we’re recording this on October 18th. It just made me think about Thanksgiving coming up. And one of my favorite things to do is instead of sending out holiday cards in December, send out Thanksgiving cards in November. It will set you apart and at least make you appear to be a grateful person even if you are not

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Or don’t tell anyone. Do Halloween.

Conrad Saam:

It’s too late, man. You can’t get Halloween cards out. Probably not. And that’s just contributing to childhood diabetics and obesity. I like the Thanksgiving thing because it makes you look like a grateful person.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

You can think Thanksgiving’s contributing to any kind of bad eating decisions.

Conrad Saam:

Okay, fair

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Enough. Alright, what else are we talking about today? Conrad?

Conrad Saam:

Okay. We have a ton of news. We actually had to strike some of the news items because there was so much to talk about. And then after the news, Gyi pilfer a diary of an internal marketer and he’s going to read the internal thoughts of an in-house digital marketer at a law firm.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Music

Announcer:

Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing teaching you how to promote market and make fat stacks for your legal practice here on Legal Talk Network.

Conrad Saam:

Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. As usual, we are going to start with the news. All right, everyone, there is a lot going on. So much that we had to strike some of our news items because we thought you would get bored, but the last two pods, we have started with m and a conversations. We promised we didn’t want to talk about that anymore. And now we are going to show that we lied to you. Gyi, what was the big purchase that happened earlier this week?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

SEMrush purchases Search engine land. So we’ve got tool purchasing media. My thing about the SEMrush thing, if only we had another example of commercial interests impacting the media. If only there was any other example of this that we could learn from that why this is not going to be great for consumers of search engine land media. Unfortunately we don’t, so we carry on.

Conrad Saam:

Alright, I’m going to skip one news item because we can stay with this. We have some homework for you. Go read the Clio Legal Trends report because it just came out. Gyi, and I cover this all the time, and as we were talking about whether or not we should cover the Clio Legal Trends report because they are a sponsor of this amazing podcast and we are super grateful. We talked about whether or not we should either not mention this because we’re a sponsor because it looks like we are playing favorites to our sponsors, or we should mention it because they’re a sponsor. But what was the conclusion we came up to? Gyi.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, the conclusion we came up to is it doesn’t matter whether they’re a sponsor or not because this is a leading industry report and it’s a very extensive one and they’ve been running this for several years and is super valuable information. I mean, I keep, I’m a big fan of the 2019 report and the reason that I love the 2019 report in particular is because they went deep on marketing, then they cut marketing for a couple of years. They were talking about utilization rates and stuff, which again, it’s important stuff as a marketing person, I want to know what’s going on in marketing with these law firms. And so they brought some marketing questions back, very informative and we’re going to dive deep in it. So if you want to ask questions about it or if you’ve got issues with it, we want to hear with you between now and our next episode because we want to make it the most valuable resource that we can.

Conrad Saam:

So to the marketers at Clio who sponsor this podcast, we just promise that we will cover your awesome content regardless of whether or not you continue to sponsor us because the content itself is great. Okay, last pod, we talked about the tiff between WP Engine and WordPress, Matt Mullenweg. That has gotten worse. Not better. I thought it was going to disappear, but there’s clearly some stupid type A driven personality, ego going off the rails right there. So I would keep an eye on what’s going on with that because it’s not getting any better. Gyi, have you purchased anything on Amazon recently?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I have our good friend Ryan McKean and Alison McKean and Brittany Green, good friends, launched a book The Way, a Simple roadmap for leading a healthy law firm. There is no, speaking of sponsorships, Ryan’s not giving us anything to say this. Fortunately, we’ll be doing Lunch, Hour, Legal Marketing for law students in a class that Professor McKean will be teaching. But anyway, check out the book and look forward to that episode for law students.

Conrad Saam:

Good stuff must read. And finally, I want to share this anecdote. This barely qualifies as news, but it was super, super cool. I did a taping with Ben Glass and Brian Glass in their office outside of DC and there was a lot of cool stuff that I saw there. I’m going to post some pictures because I kept taking pictures, but I wanted to share this one awesome conference room concept. Ben’s conference room is too big for their firm. It’s enormous. And he does a lot of great legal marketing work, which is his consulting brand out of that conference room. But it’s big, it’s too big. They don’t need that much space. What do they do? Ben invites anyone in the community who needs conference room space to come in and use it when it’s not being used. It’s genius. Come WeWork. Yeah, it’s the WeWork contributing back to your local community. What a

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Great way to meet people.

Conrad Saam:

Totally

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Great way to meet people. What a positive community branding move

Conrad Saam:

And at the very front of the room is his branding, right?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It’s a great idea. Now again, if I’m a skeptical lawyer, I might say, what’s the difference in rent? Does he pay? Does he own the building? That’s another thing too. Doesn’t own building. It’s not, this is my other thing about all this kind of stuff. It’s not free. He’s paying for it. I think it’s worth the investment. I love it. But I just want to remind folks, people think about this stuff and they’re like, oh well just that community stuff. How are we going to do attribution to that?

Conrad Saam:

So I think my thing is on that, most of you have conference rooms that sit mostly empty Most of the time the incremental cost on this is close to zero.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I love it. No, so you’re just saying, right, I mean, okay, I got you. So you’re not saying invest in a larger space. I think a lot of people have downsized their space if not gone mostly virtual.

Conrad Saam:

Yeah, I mean if anyone would like to rent some office space in downtown Seattle next to the

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Oh, I see

Conrad Saam:

Iconic Space need. Boy oh boy, do I Have someone you should talk to

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I understand how this got on the agenda so that you can pitch your extra space at Mockingbird. Amazing. Brilliant.

Conrad Saam:

One of the worst business done business decisions I have ever made. Well done extending the lease right before Covid hit,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

But if you have an extended lease, invite the community in go. You probably should have some community guidelines for your space

Conrad Saam:

Too. Mine unfortunately is surrounded by kind of a drug infested prostitution area in Seattle that has never really recovered. So no one really wants to come to my office, bring

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Everybody into the office. Yeah, business invitees. Alright, let’s take a break. So Conrad, I had a very interesting opportunity. I was leaving a law firm and I noticed a little book in the bushes and I picked it up and it was titled Diary of Law Firm Marketing Director. And I thought maybe we would share a little passage from this diary each day and talk about it. So I’m going to read the entry here. 10 18, 20 24. Dear diary, the irony I face daily is that a experienced attorneys, the ones making the most money and decisions for the firm, ak my budget, believe with good cause that the vast majority of high value cases and clients come from word of mouth referrals, which are based on the attorney’s individual reputations, which are based largely on their actual work performance, not my marketing ingenuity. That’s the first part of the entry. There’s a second part that we’re going to get to, but I want to pause there and get your thoughts. Conrad, do you have empathy for our dear legal marketing director?

Conrad Saam:

No. None.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Amazing.

Conrad Saam:

Well, so

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Okay, why not?

Conrad Saam:

Why not? So there’s a couple things. One of the things that you and I have talked about regularly is that different marketing channels perform differently. So your conversion rates from referrals should be higher. Probably the value of the case, especially coming from other attorneys should be higher. So you’re not wrong in suggesting that this is a focus of driving as much value as you can for the law firm. And bluntly, and you and I have talked about this, if you can build a law firm that meets your objectives through nothing but referrals, do it. We’ve already talked about this. We talked about the highest ROIs to slash everything other than referrals. The problem is that is a very small portion of the market. And if that’s enough of the market for you, Merry Christmas, that’s great. Do it.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

So that’s the point of this first part is that the conclusion is their data. Their data says most of our good cases and clients come from word of mouth referrals and they also say, hold on. Then they also say, we’re going to not have budget on non acquisition or on non-brand acquisition. And on top of that they have growth objectives.

Conrad Saam:

Okay, well that’s the problem. That’s the problem.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

There is the problem.

Conrad Saam:

But hold on. The reason I said I have no empathy for our writer here is there’s a lot that you can do tactically to encourage referrals. And most law firms fail on this. As you were reading this out. I would extend the job of the marketing director to the law firm owner listening to this. The job of your marketing director, if you just position them outside of encouraging referrals, that is epically stupid,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Epically bad, much bad. Huge mistake. It is a total misalignment of it’s it’s, go ahead. Keep

Conrad Saam:

Going. So as you were just reading this thing, I scribbled in my notes some of the things that your law firm should be doing, your marketing director should be doing to encourage and support those referrals. So there is the obvious retargeting and ensuring that your own database constantly sees your brand, right? And most law firms forget about this. If you are running a solid CRM, you can run a newsletter to this group. And we’ve seen some amazing newsletter. Christopher Early has started doing this extremely effectively. There’s plenty of lawyers sending out kind of industry.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I get his emails,

Conrad Saam:

They’re great. Go sign up for Christopher Earley’s emails. So if you want a get example of someone doing this, well go look at his stuff. If you’re really running this well and you have birthday information, which you can grab off of LinkedIn or Facebook by and large for everyone in your database, I mean you probably get a 40% hit rate. Go send out those birthday cards. You should absolutely have your marketing director, and you and I have talked about this before, they should be sending out personalized gifts to those refers. Yeah, you might exchange money, but go send out that personalized gift. We showed the example of Hunter Garnet who sent me the personalized bench made knife. Those types of things stick with you forever. So that’s a really obvious thing and there’s probably more. But the final thing that I scribbled down is one of the best things, and you can put this on the marketing director’s back, is to make sure that those cases that get referred to you, you keep the referer up to speed with how those matters are doing. And that is a great way to show that you care, show that you over communicate and show that you’re doing a great job for those referrals. So those keep coming. So I reject the notion that your marketing director’s job should not include everything you can do to drive more of those referrals.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That was awesome. Great examples. I’m going to take a different approach because I think that this marketing director would love to do all those things. Maybe he even is doing all those things, but the law firm doesn’t see it as his participating in that, right? Because look what they’re saying, word of mouth referrals, which are based on the attorney’s individual reputations, which are based largely on their actual work performance, not my marketing ingenuity. It’s like, is that because you’re not getting credit for those things or you’re not doing them? And is that not part of your job description? If the firm is like, referrals are free, man, referrals are free, we just do work. We got to spend time and money to do work that we have to do anyway, and then we get referrals. If that’s the mindset, she’s not getting credit for any of that stuff, they’re going to be like, we were getting those referrals anyway. And I think that’s your point is you can demonstrate that you can increase the number of referrals, but again, that’s why the CMO or the marketing director’s role has to be aligned with the right growth plan and metrics all in. You can’t be like you’re going to be the market. Are you just a direct response performance marketer? Is that what your job is?

Conrad Saam:

So you brought up one part of this that I forgot to pounce on.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Pounce

Conrad Saam:

That I think is a fallacious perception and it is reputations which are based largely on their actual work performance, right? Bullshit. There you go. You are completely wrong about this.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Exactly. Thank you.

Conrad Saam:

So let me move outside of legal. I use this all the time. I’ve had five knee surgeries, so I’m fairly well versed in knee surgeries. Repeat customer, repeat customer number seven. You’re on the loyalty program at some time. Got you’re getting the card punched. Exactly. You get a free one. Whatcha you get a free one after 10. But my point here is I have no idea if the surgeon did a good job, my right knee hurts, but I can walk. Is that a good outcome or a bad outcome? I That’s

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Good. I don’t. You can still walk, man.

Conrad Saam:

I can walk, still walk.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Good job.

Conrad Saam:

So I think you need to move this and this is a really important thing. You need to move this. We do a good job and therefore we have a good reputation and therefore we get a lot of referrals. That is not the case. You get a lot of good referrals to use my medical example because you have great bedside manner, you keep people up to speed, you speak in their language, you have empathy, you give a damn being good at your job, in many cases you may do an amazing job and the client at the end will not even know that it was a great outcome.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Get that’s most of the time they know. And look if you talking, because pretty much every legal context is going to be that. We talk a lot about the PI side of things. They don’t know. Everybody’s got million dollar verdicts on their websites. Everybody’s got best lawyer and super lawyer. You can deliver a great legal representation. And to Conrad’s point, if your service stinks regardless, I mean with some exceptions because these guys will be like, well if a hammer check for a million dollars, they don’t care about my bedside manner. And I’m like, yeah, okay, that’s one client. But think about all the ones where you have to have difficult conversations about settling. And then there’s the one, and how about all the people that you talk to on the phone that you won’t even take their case. And then there’s all the ones that you’re working the case, but you’re not responding to ’em and they’re going online and leaving a negative review about, I haven’t heard from this firm in three months.

Conrad Saam:

So dear marketing director, your job is to also think about delivering great bedside manner for the matters in which you are engaged in order to continue the referrals

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And to educate the lawyers that referrals don’t just happen because you’re a great lawyer and that they’re not free. You should be deploying resources against these things to increase referrals and to increase client experience. Alright, let’s take a break. So we got a great listener question from MJ Morley on Instagram. Feel free to Instagram as well. Love to field questions there. She asks, ah, refs or SEMrush, Conrad, what do you think? Well first, what are Ahrefs and SEMrush? Tell me your quick overview of what some of the things that you do with these tools.

Conrad Saam:

So these are two different tools that do similar things and both of them are colossally inaccurate, but they are as good as we can get. And the smaller your firm is, the more inaccurate the data is.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

A hundred percent true. Certainly not a paid ad for a HS or ush, but do your agency people use either of these tools?

Conrad Saam:

So the answer to refs or SEMrush or SEMrush, however you want, we’ve still ongoing debate on that is yes,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I think it’s

Conrad Saam:

SEMrush. Okay.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yes, you do.

Conrad Saam:

The answer is yes.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah. Do you use both of them?

Conrad Saam:

Yeah. So I was trying to be funny. That didn’t work,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Right? No, I got you. My answer’s the same. My answer is the same. Yeah. Hey look, this is a plug for an agency. Agencies typically have access to a much wider variety of tools and data, and this is the answer that I responded on Instagram, I believe we use both more data the better.

Conrad Saam:

So yeah, so I guess the question is, Gyi, why do you use both and why not just one?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I mean for a variety of reasons, but some of it has to do with the actual feature sets. There are certain features that Arus have SEMrush, they’re not one-to-one on features. So it depends on the application for some of it. But the biggest thing is is that it’s two different link indices. It’s two different rank tracking aspects. Now, I don’t put a ton into the volume metrics stuff. I mean, honestly, my viewpoint

Conrad Saam:

Of that’s inaccurate.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It’s way off.

Conrad Saam:

It’s so stupid.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It’s like absolutely. So I was like, don’t use that. And when I see people post charts of that online, I’m like, that’s kind of misleading their friend.

Conrad Saam:

Okay, we talked about this four episodes ago and I’m going to bring this back again

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Because it’s important. Here we go.

Conrad Saam:

If you have an agency that is using a third party tool to tell you how well you are doing,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Oh boy.

Conrad Saam:

If they don’t have access to your data, they are either stupid or they know they’re misrepresenting things. If they do have access to your data, they’re your internal agency and they’re using third party tools to report on how you’re doing, they are stupid or deliberately misleading. I would be really, really cautious. We use these as tools to try and find things, but if they’re representing your data with a third party tool, hugely problematic, especially in a sales situation because these tools so frequently underestimate and undervalue, especially for the smaller sites, what the actual traffic volume is. So if they’re looking to be like, Hey, you don’t have a lot of traffic, you’re getting killed. They’re either deliberately lying or they’re stupid

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And go learn more about them from search engine land that is now owned by one of ’em. Right?

Conrad Saam:

Bring that full circle. What a mess.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Alright, thanks to MJ for that awesome question. And if you have a question, please hit us up on LinkedIn or Instagram, comment on Spotify and YouTube and leave us a review on Apple podcast. Thanks so much. Back to our diary. So I’m going back here, flipped into the page here.

Conrad Saam:

Oh hey, is this

Gyi Tsakalakis:

A fictional diary or

Conrad Saam:

Where did you really find this question? I am trying to draw out that this is not Gyi and making stuff up.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

No, let’s tell the whole story here. Sure. Tell We wasn’t planning on talking about this today.

Conrad Saam:

We had to scrap our article, our segment, but then this came through and it was like, this is much better.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

It was a response, it was a LinkedIn comment. You got to give it up to LinkedIn. LinkedIn does spark some good conversations when you’re dealing with real people. Anyway, a response to a comment and the time that it came in and we really felt it. We really felt this post, because you’re not alone out there. Lemme tell you, talking to a lot of lawyers and a lot of marketing directors. You are not alone. The issues about investing in referrals and really looking at the full picture of how referrals and word of mouth works. And as we get into this second part of this question, the expectations around performance marketing, well, let’s just get back to the diary entry. Here we go. And yet B, I’m largely tasked with bringing in marketing originated business. Mostly 95 plus percent via search. While that constitutes about a third of the firm’s revenue, they’d like it to be closer to half.

This is mainly to feed work to newer attorneys who haven’t built up the reputations enough to rely on those direct referrals. Oh, those free direct referrals. Those lawyers have been doing it forever. Just generating those referrals, just doing good work. Just do good work. Sorry, I got to finish that. I got to finish the Andre got excited there. That wasn’t in the Andre. That was Adli. The irony is that digital marketing gets very little respect among the senior attorneys deciding my budget, salary, et cetera. Is this as ironic as I think it is or should I be looking at it differently?

Conrad Saam:

Wow. Welcome to our world, dude. Digital marketing gets very little respect. That’s so good. Gyi, and I have had a career getting slapped around by you guys with no respect. We get the fish tail of your scorn every single day. The

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Only thing more lowly than the in-house director is the agency marketer. I feel

Conrad Saam:

Like we should be having, let’s, let’s parse it.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Okay. Yeah, this is totally, this is agency therapy, AKA Dear diary marketing.

Conrad Saam:

We may have just lost all of our listeners, but here’s what I pulled out of this.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

No, tell ’em. Tell ’em what’s going on here.

Conrad Saam:

Well, there’s a big picture and a small picture. Your firm wants to grow, so half of their business is coming from your digital marketing efforts. Great. Okay. So that means that you need to continue playing this game and putting resources to it and the referrals,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Putting resources to it. Conrad, you forgot about this little respect and budget.

Conrad Saam:

Yeah. Okay. So I think they don’t want to

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Put resources into it. They want it to perform better with the existing budget.

Conrad Saam:

So if you want to get from one third to 50%, you’re talking about a 17% increase in your revenue without spending any more money, which is just dumb. That’s on you dear law firm owner. But I think also hidden in here, ye is a problem for the marketer and it is a problem from the perspective of based on this perspective of the law firm owner. This person says 95% of their marketing originated business is from search.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That’s what got me to,

Conrad Saam:

There are two problems. There’s probably more than two problems on that. The biggest problem that I see here is that the law firm is looking at this from a direct response perspective.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yep,

Conrad Saam:

Exactly.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Simplistically probably like last touch,

Conrad Saam:

It’s last touch attribution, right? I can see this. It’s the concept that you have that this call came in from Mary because of, and let me use the most frequently misused example, Google business profile. So you can track that this lead Mary, even this client, if you’re tracking is really good. If you’re only using last touch, they may have come in from your Google business profile, but they did that. They got to your Google business profile for other reasons. And so I suspect this is a simplistic attribution model client, and I suspect that the mindset of the owners is only around direct response. Where we are going to invest in generating this specific client.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That’s right.

Conrad Saam:

On top of that search should not be 95% of your digital marketing business. That is bonkers. At the very least, you need to break this out into paid, local and organic. That still falls under the search category. But there’s no way, I don’t have a single client and I run a digital marketing business where search represents 95% of their, what did they say? Marketing originated business. That is a mistake. Sorry, go ahead. Gyi.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

No, I’m with you on those. I think the first thing that jump out at me is you better start diversifying. And again, the question is, are the law firm, to your point, are the law firm only looking at this like you are responsible for non-brand organic search that converts into business. That’s the only thing. We’re you credit for or we’re giving you credit for search click call Google ads clients, right? And probably, hopefully some LSAs, I think if they’re smart. But you know how I feel about LSAs, again, that’s all search. So you’re still, you’re way too beholden to search. But are you getting credit for these other ways of marketing? To me, that’s the point. This is going to require a mindset shift by the firm owners that we got to look at marketing a totally different way. We got to get out of this old fashioned direct response, Hey, this side of the house is do great work. We get referrals. And this side of the house is, you’re only getting credit for non-brand. Direct response from search. Come on a

Conrad Saam:

Hundred percent.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

By the way, if you’re going to put those parameters in, you better be ready to fund it. You better be ready to spend some serious money. But that’s the problem. They’re like, you’re only getting credit for search. We’re going to be all in on search. That’s all you get credit for. And 0% increase in your budget. Go convert more.

Conrad Saam:

Yeah. So I set a 17% increase in the revenue without an increased budget. You’re really talking about a 50% increase in the effectiveness of your digital marketing efforts without increasing the budget. That’s

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Limited to non-brand search.

Conrad Saam:

Yeah. El Stupido.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Not cool. Not cool. To the point, again, to the empathy, is this as ironic as I think it is, or should I be looking at it differently? Is this as ironic as you think it is?

Conrad Saam:

Yes. Also, Gyi and Conrad have no empathy for you.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, I have empathy because we talk to this marketing director’s boss all the time and we run into it a lot. Philosophical.

Conrad Saam:

Be careful, dude. No, Gyi, is philosophical burning bridges on the pod in real time?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

No. Philosophically, we talk to this lawyer all the time, and until you shift that mindset, your stuff’s just not going to work as well. It works better when it’s all working integrated, when you’re all thinking about this from the same vantage point and you’re willing to actually properly resource it.

Conrad Saam:

But I think inherent in this is from the original point, the referrals are going to cost less to acquire. They’re going to cost less to acquire.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, it depends. It depends. So you’re thinking about the former client word of mouth referral in the community. That’s

Conrad Saam:

Fair.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That’s fair. That’s free. Right? That’s free. That’s the point that they’re making. They’re saying, we just do good work and we’re going to get these community referrals. And you will should, the issue is the growth. That’s the challenge. If you want to grow, you have to invest and you can invest in referrals.

Conrad Saam:

Invest in referrals. Mathematically, you need to understand, dear law firm owner that the growth clients are going to cost more to acquire than static referral clients. You need to accept that

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Incremental cost goes up as you take over more market.

Conrad Saam:

That’s right. Because different parts of the market cost different amounts to acquire. And you need to be okay with that. And if you’re not okay with that, if you just want to live in that, I wish everything was just as cheap to generate as my referral business. That is fantastic. You do not have a growth oriented law firm. You just don’t. And which is fine, but stop shellacking your marketing director with, I want you to double the effectiveness of digital marketing without changing the budget.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Or it’d be like, look, forget non-brand direct response. I’m going to focus all my time. You guys talk about how valuable these word of mouth referrals are. Let me spend my time focusing on increasing the number of word of mouth referrals we get because it’s not just you guys doing a good job.

Conrad Saam:

That’s right. And I would do that. I mean, we’re in Q4 right now. This is a great conversation to

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Have great annual conversation.

Conrad Saam:

You’ll have a benchmark of how many referrals we got in 2024 and give me 20% of the budget to put towards doubling. Go increase your referral business by 50% by spending money on it instead of just thinking you’re going to generate that from good work. Exactly.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And do all the things that Conrad said at the outside of the episode. He gave you a bunch of ideas. So if you need ideas, click, rewind,

Conrad Saam:

Do all the things Conrad said, I like that. We should end with that.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah, it rarely happens. And with that, we thank you to our dear listeners for showing up for this episode of lunch, our legal marketing. If you just landed here, please do subscribe and send us questions, topics, and awesome comments and responses on LinkedIn and Instagram. Thank you so much. Lunch, our legal marketing route.

Announcer:

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Conrad Saam:

We’re like, that was awesome. Please rerecord these things. Start over.

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