Law Firm Marketing Mastery in 30 Minutes—GUARANTEED! || r/HiddenGems

Episode Notes

Transcript

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Conrad. Happy Valentine’s Day.

Conrad Saam:

Wow. Happy Valentine’s Day to me. That is so sweet of you. Are you doing anything cool for Valentine’s Day? Did you proactively make something happen? Yes,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I am a hopeless romantic, and I will be at ABA Tech show. My poor wife.

Conrad Saam:

Are you bringing your wife to Chicago to hang out with a bunch of lawyers?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I am not. She would not be interested in Chicago in February, but I’m grateful for going to ABA tech show and looking forward to seeing Lunch, Hour, Legal Marketing peeps there. We’ll be asking questions, passing out stickers and hats. Find us on the exhibitor floor. And this actually came up in some conversations. One of the things that I tell people all the time that I love about tech show is they don’t pay the speakers or the speaker, excuse me. They do reimburse the speakers for travel and lodging, but the speakers don’t pay to pitch from the stage. And that I think has become a real problem in industry conferences world. Right?

Conrad Saam:

Absolutely. Has accelerated, let’s put it that way.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And at least these shows should be, and this is the last time I’m ever invited to any of these shows, of course. But by

Conrad Saam:

The way, it seems like you were uninvited earlier because you’ve been talking about this for a while.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, these are getting worse, but they should at least disclose that these speakers are paying to speak. Right? What’s your policy on that?

Conrad Saam:

I believe that every speaker discloses that they have spoken when they start pitching from the stage obnoxiously, that’s my call, but

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Then it’s too late. I already bought a ticket and now I’m here. That’s right.

Conrad Saam:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know what? Here’s the thing. You can bash this all you want. And I philosophically don’t disagree with you. Gyi, I really don’t. But the conferences keep happening. I mean, it’s not like there’s a paucity of legal conferences showing up on my feed. So I don’t know. I let the economics dictate, let me rephrase, put it differently. It’s not like the conferences that charge a lot to speak in. And by the way, I have paid to speak. Don’t get me. You can color me in that group. It is not like those conferences are in decline. I think they’re actually increasing their amount of attendees. And so you can’t dispute that. So for better or worse,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

What do I know, Conrad, what else are we talking about today?

Conrad Saam:

Alright, as usual, we’re starting out with the news, talking about LSA bombing, some Google Maps changes. We’re moving on to our first segment, which really pisses me off. This is digital marketing agencies guaranteeing domination, right? And this is not a weird BDSM reference. This is about dominating the SERPs. And finally, we’re going to go over Google Hidden Gems and Reddit

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Music.

Speaker 3:

Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing teaching you how to market and make fat stacks for your legal practice here on Legal Talk Network.

Conrad Saam:

Alright, welcome to Lunch Hour. Legal Marketing. We have a, I’m going to call this a dark theme to the news. Gyi, I almost don’t want to share some of this news because it’s so gross and it’s going to encourage and enable more gross behavior. Talk to me, Gyi, about what you can do to get your competitors LSA wiped off the map.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well shout out to Ben Fisher, who’s at the social dude on Twitter, brought this to my attention. Brutal new tactic that competitors are doing. An ls, a competitor makes a new LSA for another competitor. And because they link it to the GBP as an automatic system, it nukes the competitor out of existence. So essentially, competitor creates another listing, links it back to the other GBP and poof nukes the competitor’s LSA. Hopefully by the time this is published, Google will have fixed it. But as we’ll talk about in our hidden gem segment, the near future is a relative term,

Conrad Saam:

The near future in geologic time. By the way, if you are a digital marketing agency, please turn off this podcast. Ignore the last 20 seconds of what you heard and go gargle some bleach

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And go check your LSAs. I mean, you might think they’re running when they’re not because of this nastiness.

Conrad Saam:

So gross, gross and gross Google Maps and AI local guides. Gyi, talk to me.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

So not surprisingly, as everybody’s working generative AI and everything, Google has announced that they are adding generative AI to maps. We’ll put a link to the show notes of their blog post, and they’re pitching it as a new way to discover places. You can just kind of describe what you’re looking for and there’s a bunch of other things that it’s supposed to be doing, but

Conrad Saam:

Maybe a great place to take your Valentine’s date. That’s innocuous.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

There you go. Find some new places to go on Valentine’s. And as with many things, Google and generative ai, they’re saying this is just really the first taste of this. We can expect a lot more exciting things. And I think you in the context of lawyers, most of our listeners who are local businesses on Google business profiles get ready for this to have an impact on how consumers find law firms in local.

Conrad Saam:

And finally, we’ve talked about this in the past and think what we’re starting to see is an impact to law firm businesses, the local maps. Google’s really moving that around and testing different placements for that. Now, the maps have for the last, Gyi, I think it’s six or seven years, have really held a beautiful spot at the top of the SERPs. And they’re now occasionally disappearing or being hidden well below the fold. And the data is starting to trickle in that for some businesses, for some law firms, this is having a real dramatic impact, especially those of you that have relied heavily on Google Maps to drive business. So if that’s something that you are noticing, if you’re seeing a kind of downtick in business and you have been channel heavy on local, that may be the culprit. It is certainly the culprit for a handful of my clients. I don’t know if you’re seeing the similar, Gyi.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah. So my take on this is Google has tested different locations for the map pack in the past. It does seem like there’s an uptick recently, may last couple months. To Conrad’s point though, I think if you’re a sophisticated local PAC tracker, as Conrad mentioned, you probably have a phone tracking number in your Google business profile. And therefore, if your calls all of a sudden fall off a cliff, there are two major culprits, right? One would be you fell out of the pack and this one. Now also it might be you’re actually still in the pack, but the pack is lower on the page. In which case there’s not anything that your SEO company or your marketing director did. It’s just Google testing a different version of that. But I think we talked about this in the pre-show Conrad, and I’ll let you go deeper on it. It’s a real problem if you’re using a rank tracker that doesn’t show you the location of the pack in the context of the full serp, right?

Conrad Saam:

So Gyi, if I am not using a rank tracker like that, if I’m not using dynamic phone call tracking to ascertain whether or not my inbounds are coming from the map, what should I do?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Go implement that Gogo. Do those things.

Conrad Saam:

Silence means volumes. Go fire your agency. Or at least go give our good friends, Hey, look, I found a way to pitch CallRail organically. Get this done, guys. Get the infrastructure. Because if you don’t have this information, you’re running blind into the wind.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Let’s take a break.

Conrad Saam:

Dhir listener, I guarantee you that you’ll love this podcast. I guarantee all sorts of things. I guarantee that this podcast will help you dominate your local market. Gyi, you and I have kind of crapped on the SEO guarantees or ROI guarantees more recently. Why? What do we hate about this?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, the one that I’m thinking about that it’s been going on forever, but it kind of came back up on the radar, is this guaranteed Rankings thing. It sounds great, right? You’re frustrated with your current agency or your current SEO, whatever’s going on and you see this ad or you see this listing, you’re searching around for SEO or you see somebody on social media saying, I guarantee Rankings or you don’t pay. Sounds awesome.

Conrad Saam:

Great. That’s no risk to me, Gyi.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

But as always, there are no free lunches. And we wanted to kind of go through the anatomy of some of these guaranteed ranking pitches, and I’ll give you my first take on it and then I’ll turn it over to you. I’m sure you got some more examples.

Conrad Saam:

I might. But

Gyi Tsakalakis:

In the best case scenario, in my opinion, they guarantee something. They guarantee a ranking and they actually commit to some kind of relevant query. And it’s actually a relevant query that might convert into clients for you, which is about a lot of ifs there because a lot of ’em don’t. But the challenge is, is that even if they get you to rank, depending on what they did, they still lied to you because they can’t guarantee it. And so you might think, well, who cares if I don’t have to pay? But the problem is, is that in those particular guarantees, they might do something that might make it actually very difficult for you to maintain that ranking. And so you pay them because they got you to rank and then you’re blacklisted, or you get a manual action or you get de-indexed or whatever, and they’re gone and you already paid. And that’s the best case. That’s the best case scenario.

Conrad Saam:

I hate the guarantees. I remember the guarantees of being at the top of Google. I guarantee you’ll be at the top of Google for pay-per-click campaigns. It’s like, okay, so I guarantee that you’re going to overpay for your pay-per-click advertising.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

That’s even hard to do.

Conrad Saam:

That can be, that’s an older one. The other old one that I remember this, we’re going to guarantee a number of keywords are going to rank, and it would be keywords like personal injury plus zip code or something like that that no one is ever searching for. But you can throw in a bunch of useless random content and start showing up. This is when you could just spam the crap out of an H one and get results for things that people didn’t look for.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Or you can do the old, we’ll get you to rank from sitting in your own office in the local pack.

Conrad Saam:

Oh, come on, you’re inviting my email here. I’m going to read this to you, Gyi. And I’m going to ask you how great this sounds. So this, by the way, this is happening a lot right now and we talked about some of the historical components to this, but this, I’m seeing a lot both in kind of organic searches, but I’m also starting to see this as sales pitches from agencies. I’m going to read this to you and I would like you to dissect just how shitty and scummy this sales tactic is. This is from an agency to a law firm, not a client of mine, but they sent it to me and asked for my feedback on this guarantee. Hi Bob. Stop right

Gyi Tsakalakis:

There. No, just kidding, just kidding.

Conrad Saam:

You don’t think it’s Bob. Alright, we are now taking on new law firms for top three placement in the Google Maps guaranteed in writing. We do not need access to your website. We are a Google certified partner that was founded by one of the original beta testers of the Google Maps. This is why we are confident enough to offer guarantees that you’ll be found in the top three of the local maps in your city for your practice area. We are only taking on one law firm per practice area per city. So don’t delay. Are you ready to dominate the local maps in 2024? Gyi, does this smell like bullshit to you? And tell me why,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Man, I feel so bad for all these lawyers that are falling for this.

Conrad Saam:

So you listening at home or in your car, wherever you are, this sounds good, right? If you can’t understand what Gyi is about to explain to you about why this is garbage, you’re open for this and this is the problem. You guys don’t understand the technology well enough and you get swindled by shit like this. Go, Gyi, what’s the problem here?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, I mean the first thing is that even the people that work on the actually work for Google, oh Jesus, they can’t guarantee that any particular business listing is going to rank in the local pac. But let’s just say that this is all true, which is not, but let’s just say it’s true and it’s somebody, an X engineer that really thinks they have an understanding of what’s going on. One is there is no Google certification for SEO period. So that’s a lie.

Conrad Saam:

A Google certified partner,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Right? Right. Well, maybe they’re an ads partner, that’s their thing. They conflate those things, right? But they try to make it look like they have some special relationship with Google. That’s not true. They also said they’re going to do this without access to your website. So there are only a couple things you can do to influence local Pac Rankings without anything on the backend. First would be, which we’ll talk about in hidden gems, which is like click through manipulation. So that might short term give you a bump, but again, no guarantees. They might try to do some link building activities. They might hammer your Google business profile with fake reviews. But again, back to the top of all this best case scenario, they actually do this stuff and you rank and you’re not just sitting in your office and ranking, you actually rank for real.

When you get caught, it’s going to be really, really hard for you to rank and you’re already have going to pay them. The bigger thing with all of this stuff, and lawyers should know this, this is what really gets at me, because lawyers ethically cannot guarantee outcomes, right? Lawyers know this. Prior results do not guarantee future outcomes and all this jazz, and yet they’re falling for this. And these people, they’re just lying to you. And so even if it works until it doesn’t, the fact that they lied to you from the outset demonstrates that they might be willing to lie about a bunch of other things and put you in a worse spot. And so again, the only solution to this is education, right?

Conrad Saam:

So for me, Gyi, you touched on the thing that drives me up the wall with this specific thing. You’re sitting in your office and this is the snake oil behind the pitch and we glossed over it quickly, but I want to hone in on this very specific thing. You guys probably know that your local results are impacted by the location of the searcher, which is a normal thing. If you want a pizza restaurant, you don’t want a pizza restaurant across the state. You want someone that you can walk to. And the scam here is that if you do the search from within your office, you’re probably already ranking for that term. So they’re guaranteeing something that you already have. Gyi, I’m going to guarantee that you have 10 fingers. Doesn’t that sound amazing? And that’s the bullshit that I hate because they know, they absolutely know that from within your own office, you’re already ranking in the top three and you’re already dominating if someone’s in your goddamn lobby.

But if you’re half a mile away and you disappear, well, they’re not responsible for making that change happen. So they’re guaranteeing something that already exists and they’re extending the promise because you guys don’t understand or even critically think about the fact that with local, the location of the searcher is paramount. And if you don’t know how to do this, run a local. I did this. So this was for Bob and he sent this to me and we just did a quick local Falcon report and I was like, Hey Bob, you’re already ranking number one in your office now. Bob’s website and his local and all his components for digital marketing and SEO were crap really, really, really bad. Poor Google business profile, terrible backlink profile, his content was garbage. So this is not someone who’s winning already. This was a really poor site. It was performing really, really poorly. But if you were in his lobby, he would rank for what he does. Merry Christmas. No one cares. And so it is a fake false promise and it drives me fucking crazy. So

Gyi Tsakalakis:

If you want to fall for this, but you want to fall for it in a smarter way, make them commit to guaranteed ranking for personal injury lawyer, if that’s your term, but for 10 miles away from your office. Because if they do that now again, don’t fall for this because even if they do it, what do they do to make it happen? I’m telling you, it’s not going to be any good.

Conrad Saam:

Now you have a new fake office at a post office box that has 500 reviews that happened in the last week, and now you’re contractually obligated to pay them for doing something that you can use a law license for. Good job. Have at it.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I guarantee you this won’t end well. But let’s take a break. So we got the nicest message from our good friend Susan at beyond SEO, longtime friend of all Conrad and I and Susan writes, Hey, you two, I had to send you a quick email. I regularly listen and watch your Lunch, Hour, Legal Marketing. You two have an amazing comradery and really compliment each other and you’re a hoot to watch. That’s it. Just wanted to say keep up the great work. I thoroughly enjoy you too, miss seeing you both. Hope all is well. Susan, thank you so much. We hope to see you again soon. And if you are as happy about Lunch Hour Legal Marketing as Susan is, please do stop by and leave us a review or a comment on your favorite place to consume Lunch, Hour Legal, Marketing Conrad. Now I would like to talk Google and more specifically this idea of the Hidden Gems update.

It’s a newish update and we’ll put some links in there, but if you search for Hidden Gems, Google updates, it’s all over the internet. All the SEO community is up in arms about it. The idea here is, is that Google wants to surface real experiences, real user generated content. Maybe this is an attempt to try to combat some of the AI generated content, but there’s a problem. And essentially that problem is that Reddit and Quora and forum sites are now showing up all over the place. We’re getting questions, how do we leverage Reddit for our law firm? And we felt compelled to talk about this Conrad thoughts on hidden Gems?

Conrad Saam:

Well, it’s interesting. You’ve heard us talk, and if you follow the news at all, you’ve seen more and more forums showing up in results. We’re seeing that in the data to our client sites. And like most other SEO tactics that work well quickly, this is being spammed to death unfortunately, and I hate to say this, but legal is often at the vanguard of making good stuff awful. And there is a bunch of garbage that’s going on on Reddit driving traffic, and I think Reddit’s the primary culprit, but not the only culprit.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And your good friends avo, because they have question and answer section on their site, they’re showing up in these forum and discussion posts. But I want to try to clarify for folks that are like, this is brand new. And if you do a search for, usually it’s triggered by something that is like a how or something that would be trigger something that would explain some kind of experience. But I got to tell you, I’ve even seen it for head terms. I just pre-show, I did a personal injury lawyer lookup search and discussions and forums were right there, right below the local pack. And when you click in and see what’s going on in the most nefarious types of spam, the lawyers themselves are creating a subreddit or creating a post in a, usually it’s a location based subreddit, so maybe it’s like your city that you’re in, and they’ll say like, do you know any good personal injury lawyers in the area?

And that’s the title of the post. And then they’ll go into the different account and they’ll respond to it and say, oh yeah, this firm’s really, really good, blah blah, here’s the phone number and the website. And I got to tell you, and this is what makes SEOs drives SEOs that are trying to do this the right way up the wall, it’s working. Now to Conrad’s point, everybody’s up in arms about this. The search liaison Danny Sullivan has said they’ve got some fixes near future, they’re going to fix this stuff. But I think it’s something that’s worth folks keeping an eye on. And I do think that the fine way to take advantage of this is to be more active on relevant posts on Reddit. Now, I’m not saying go to spam it. I’m not saying go to create a post. But if you show up and you’re providing value in the conversation on Reddit, and someone who’s doing that search comes through and clicks through and says, Hey, so-and-so law firm actually gave me a thoughtful response on Reddit. I think that’s a really effective way to spend some of your resources. Now of course, the problem is identifying which sub Reddits identifying which posts in my opinion, need to be able to track relevant queries pretty effectively and see which posts are actually triggering discussions and forums. But I would tell folks, again, I wouldn’t make it my number one priority in my marketing mix, but I would add Reddit and Quora to my regular publishing cycle.

Conrad Saam:

So the interesting thing around this, and we’ve talked about this. When SGE came out, there was a lot of conversation around the authorship. I do think there’s a lot in the algorithms trying to ascertain who wrote a piece of content and what they are an authority about. There’s a lot behind this. Historically, going back a little ways, Relic was author was tied to Google Plus, which was the belly flop competitor to Facebook. And you could, as a ranking algo, it would stick your picture next to a piece of content that you had written. Google was using a piece of content tied to a specific Google Plus profile in order to put that picture there as well as determine whether or not that should rank based on who the author was. I thought that was really fascinating at the time recently with SGE, A lot has come out with about this author who wrote this and why.

And you’re also seeing Google Business Profiles. You’re encouraged to identify the social profiles and actually specify the social profiles instead of Google guessing the social profiles that are tied to an individual. And all of this to me is mapping to who the author of a piece of content is, whether they’re writing content or contributing on forums. And so I do believe there is, from a tactical perspective, an opportunity to continue to build out, I’m an authority in X, Y, or Z as the author of that content. Whether that’s video content, whether that’s on social or on forums. So I think there’s something to that. The problem is when the author and the reliable resource is also the person asking the question, albeit Vieth a different account.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

And I think Google would love to be able to surface expert content from authors that are experts on that subject. And that’s where they’re going. They’re not there today. We’ll see, they say they’ve got in the near future, they’re going to have a fix for this. But if you read AJ Cohn at a Blind five-year-Old’s Point, he has a great post called gav. And a lot of this in my view is the, it’s part of this clickstream stuff where the user engagement signals are a big part, a bigger part than I think a lot of people want to admit. But the fact that people append Reddit to their search, the fact that people are disproportionately clicking on those Reddit results is really helping Reddit out. And what happens. Reddit’s talking about an IPO and that IPO and the valuation of the business is going to be at least somewhat related to their visibility in search. And then Google dials this back right around the time of the IPO, that could get really interesting.

Conrad Saam:

Alright, there is some investment advice brought to you by lunch hour, no investment

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Advice,

Conrad Saam:

Legal marketing, Gyi, doesn’t know anything, anything on the inside here,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Right? I don’t, no, I’ve never give anybody investment advice. But I do think this is one of those examples, this Reddit stuff, there’s more intersection right now with Reddits and these forums. You can call it parasite, SEOI give will Scott credit for barnacle, SEO, because he really came up with this idea. But it’s back in a big way. If you go look at the third party traffic analysis tools on Reddit, they’re all through the roof. And you don’t have to be an expert. Go pull out your phone and go do some searches. You’ll see discussion forms pop up in the results, get on Reddit folks.

Conrad Saam:

Are we recommending that we spam the crap out of Reddit right now? No,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

I’m not. And that’s the irony of all this is classic SEOs, is Google’s using this as a surface more experiential, authentic user-generated content. And of course now the AI is hooked up to publish on Reddit. And so now it’s just a matter of there’s AI content on Reddit too. And so I’m not saying to do any of that stuff, but I do think if you’ve got an active, think about it this way, you got an active local subreddit. The same thing we talk about with private Facebook groups and these affinity groups. Maybe there’s your local whatever you’re into, you’re a runner and you’ve got the Chicago running group and you’re active there. Well, the additional benefit, in addition to the fact that you’re there and you’re meeting people and building relationships and getting affinity and that kind of stuff, it’s also getting indexed and showing up in search results. And that matters.

Conrad Saam:

Hey, Gyi, if I’m a lawyer thinking about this, listening to this podcast and I don’t know much about Reddit, what would you do to validate whether or not what you’re hearing from Gyi and Conrad is working, right? How would I go about ascertaining that? You know what? I listened to Ian Conrad, I got involved in Reddit, and it’s really moving the needle for me. What would you do?

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, I mean there’s a couple of different things to think about. I mean, the first would be any kind of direct messages or referral traffic from Reddit. You could drop a tracking number in your Reddit profile if you want. And again, I’m going to use your own stuff because this is a dark social thing. Somebody that you have that’s an active Reddit user, they might just know you from Reddit and then they search for you on Google. You’re not going to see that attribution. But again, if maybe you use a specific branded handle in Reddit, but I think the thing you have to do is, which is somewhat antithetical to historical Reddit usage. In order for this to work for your brand, you have to be yourself. It’s not going to do you any good to be anonymous if you’re using it as a marketing vehicle or a relationship building vehicle. But look, track that referral traffic, track the engagement on the threads. But before you even do any of that stuff, if you’re thinking about it from a search play, you got to understand whether or not Reddit and these forum sets are showing up for geographic or practice topically relevant queries.

Conrad Saam:

Where I was wondering, my perspective is I would not be using UTM parameters to track this. It starts to feel extremely commercial once you start doing that. And the intent, especially to the end user, starts to feel inauthentic at best and salesy marketing otherwise. Oh

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Yeah, I wasn’t suggesting that if that came out.

Conrad Saam:

So what you were suggesting was look at your inbound traffic from Reddit. What I’m suggesting is don’t take that extra step of using UTM parameters to understand the

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Specific URL.

Conrad Saam:

Exactly. This is my point. So I was just wondering if we were on the same page on that, because as soon as you start tracking stuff and it’s very, very obvious to the end user, it starts to lose the authenticity that you may not have had anyway, but at least the perspective of authenticity. Yeah,

Gyi Tsakalakis:

A hundred percent agree with you. I wouldn’t use parameters. Again, how do you directionally measure? I’d be looking more at engagement with posts, comments up votes, like some of the traditional Reddit scoring stuff. But ultimately, like anything else, it’s more about are you attracting and meeting and connecting with other Reddit users that are likely to think of you when they have a problem or an issue that you might be able to help solve. Or you answer a question on Reddit that somebody else sees and is of value to them and positions your expertise and then they find you because they go to your profile, they click through whatever they’re clicking. But yeah, I certainly wouldn’t use parameters. And if you never used Reddit, beware, the mods are anti-spam. You start dropping your crappy blog post links in there, you’re getting banhammer immediately, so don’t sell.

Conrad Saam:

Alright. We started with agencies speaking at conferences and pitching from the stage because they’re paying for it. Don’t do the same thing on Reddit.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Are we already out of time again?

Conrad Saam:

We’re out of time. Gyi.

Gyi Tsakalakis:

Well, it was a pleasure as always. Conrad. Thank you listeners. Thank you subscribers. Thank you, Susan for that very nice note. We really appreciate you. If you just landed on Lunch, Hour Legal Marketing, please do subscribe. Check out some of our other episodes and we’d love to hear from you. Hashtag HLM, YouTube and all of the socials. Until next time, for Lunch, Hour, Legal, Marketing, Conrad and Gym saying farewell.

Speaker 3:

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