The end of the year means the start of new opportunities for next year. It’s time to think about business metrics, what you’ve learned, and how to build on that. It’s never too late to start planning ahead.
Conrad and Gyi talk about ways to look back not just on last year’s revenue, profitability, retention, but also on team health, team building, and trust. What can you do better?
Plus, the guys review the year that was for the podcast, recount their favorite episodes from 2021, and share their resolutions for the show for 2022.
Special thanks to our sponsors Alert Communications, LawYaw, and Clio.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Before we get started today, we want to thank our sponsors, Clio, Lawyaw and Alert Communications. Conrad, what do you think of New Year’s resolutions?
Conrad Saam:I think I’ve kept my New Year’s resolution once. You know, it’s a good time to be thinking about the future and being introspective and then planning and — we are going to get into planning later on this session, but I think it’s a really good exercise to go through. I mean, it’s really hard to actually pull it off through the whole year.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Yeah. And we’re going to talk about this in some of our planning stuff today, but, you know, I think about these resolutions and I’m like you feel like the end of the year, it’s like cyclical. It’s like a time to do it. But you know, I don’t know, think the opposite happens. We put so much pressure on these resolutions and then we missed the, whatever our resolution was, and then it all falls apart versus like developing a consistent habit.
Conrad Saam:So, here’s the trick to developing the consistent habit. Start your New Year’s resolution now.
Gyi Tsakalakis:There you go. So what’s your resolution?
Conrad Saam:I’ll give you my resolution for last year because I didn’t do it and I deliberately delayed it. I said I was going to work less starting in February. And because I — like I did the exact opposite of starting now. I was like we’re going to start this New Year’s resolution, you know, 9% of the way into the year and by the time for everyone rolled around. So, it’s a terrible resolution.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Oh, well. Next year.
Conrad Saam:Today, we have a shorter episode for the holidays. We are going to do a quick Lunch Hour Legal Marketing year-in-review, going over our own performance and then, as promised, we’re going to talk about annual planning for law firms. It’s not too late.
Male:Welcome to Lunch Hour legal Marketing, teaching you how to promote market and make fat stacks for your legal practice, here on legal Talk Network.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Welcome one and all to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Conrad, we were going to skip the new segment today, but it looks we just got some breaking news.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Lawmatics raises $10 million in Series A funding and I would be remiss not to mention my good friends, your good friend, Matt Spiegel at Lawmatics. I am a proud investor, an advisor, and good friend of Matt’s, and I’m really impressed by what he’s building over there. I think, if you haven’t checked out Lawmatics, obviously, full disclosure, I have a dog in the fight but, you know, attorney-client relationship management. It’s a huge opportunity, move your potential clients and existing clients from prospects to actual clients. Check it out. Short news day to day.
Conrad Saam:Short news. So, today as promised, we’re going to do a review of Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. We’re going to talk about our favorite episodes and then we’re going to some of the data that determines whether or not our favorite episodes were actually the most popular episode. Gyi, what was your favorite episode that we did this year?
Gyi Tsakalakis:Gosh, this was hard. It’s a toss-up for me. It’s a very good neck-and-neck. I don’t know. I’m going to call — I’m going to say a tie. I’m going to kick the cans and say tie.
Conrad Saam:You cannot say it. No, you can equivocate.
Conrad Saam:Come on, dude. Pick one. You know what we do when he hire people? We make people — you can only pick one. So, there can only be one here, Gyi. Go.
Gyi Tsakalakis:So mean. All right. Well, I’m going with Erin Levine then, Hello Divorce.
Conrad Saam Okay. And can you pick the other one then?
Gyi Tsakalakis:I love the Erin Levine.
Conrad Saam:Why did you like the Erin Levine podcast over? By the way, we’ll put this in the show notes. If you have not listened to it and you need to feel optimistic about the future, listen to this podcast. Why did you like it so much?
Gyi Tsakalakis:Yeah. I know you loved it because of the optimistic and hopeful about the future. I’m not very optimistic or hopeful about the future. But —
Conrad Saam:Which is why I’m surprised —
Gyi Tsakalakis: — I do think —
Conrad Saam: — you chose — I think you’re going to pick for your favorite episode like, you know, “The Day the World Came to an End.”
Gyi Tsakalakis:Well, it’s probably — in some ways, it’s like similar to a — maybe it’s not the optimism but to watch Erin’s journey from practicing lawyer to recognizing a gap in the marketplace, to build what she’s built, to, you know, deal with a lot of the regulatory issues and to hear that story and to be able to share that, when I think about like, you know, my — even my own Journey from practicing to pivoting to something else, is just very inspiring and it’s also I i think it does give a good kind of sense of where we were, where we are and where we’re going.
And again, to me it’s in a hopeful way. It is the — it is —
Conrad Saam: — the technology bringing. I mean, there are two parts of her that I like. One, it’s the technology bringing the law to more people. That is where we’re going. That’s where we’ve been trying — that’s why I got interested in this industry, right? It’s a good thing. I like that she’s like such a solid CEO and lawyer, right? There is that unusual Venn diagram. No offense to our — there we go. Offending listeners early on, but honestly she’s a very sophisticated CEO who happens to be a lawyer. I like those examples because they are — it just inspiring, such a good feel.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Yep. Well, I’ll give you my honorable mention. My honorable mention was Professor Goldman’s episode and again, I think that one in the — I guess we should also at least mention Carolyn’s, that whole conversation around the issues because again I think that this is really going to be some big stuff about how we, as a society, decide the role that the internet should be playing. You’re talking about Section 230 and you’re talking about — and the highlight to me of that conversation was the reminder that he gave us because, you know, we think back and we’re like, “oh, the old times were so much better. There weren’t any fake reviews.” But the truth is, —
Conrad Saam:That’s right.
Gyi Tsakalakis: — there were no reviews. There was no information — it was complete opacity.
Gyi Tsakalakis:You can find out anything.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Yeah. So, —
Conrad Saam:So, that —
Gyi Tsakalakis:That was refreshing.
Conrad Saam:Yeah. That was a really — I remember the part in the segment where I was like “he has a really, really good prospective on this. Okay. Gyi, can you share with our listeners the most popular episodes as well as our argument about how to count the most popular episodes.
Gyi Tsakalakis:All right. So, we’re going to give you a couple different metrics here. There’s the IAB 2.0 30-day download number I guess is what that is. So, apparently, this is the industry standard. Correct us if we’re wrong about that. And then the question is like, does the downloads really even matter? You know, people subscribe to podcasts, that doesn’t mean they’re listening to any of them. These — you’re phone are just downloading them because you subscribed and so it’s on auto download and just downloading but you never listened to these episodes. So, we’re going to give you the Apple Plays. So, that’s actually people that actually played the episode to our knowledge.
Conrad Saam:So, I want to use thematically like let’s click a step up. It’s really hard to decide on what the right metrics are. By the way, also for your law firm, really hard to decide on what the right metrics are, right? So, as we’re looking at doing this, it’s a very real conundrum. Thinking about what we’re looking at becomes really, really important.
Conrad Saam:So, the most popular episode, Gyi, according to both IAB and Apple downloads was “The Marketing Crystal Ball” and so for folks that are anticipating us doing our prognostication episode, stay tune because we’ll do it again back by popular demand. And we know you guys listen to it for whatever —
Conrad Saam: — reason, that title resonates. So, it’ll be “The Marketing Crystal Ball Returns,” “The Return of — The Revenge of the Marketing Crystal Ball.” So, that’ll come out.
Gyi Tsakalakis:That’s good.
Conrad Saam:But it was different for Apple Playthroughs, right?
Conrad Saam:When Apples plays, —
Gyi Tsakalakis:Apple Play, sorry.
Conrad Saam: — seven — that’s all right. Seven juicy marketing tips ala tech show and again, you’re in rock because we’re going to do another tech show episode as we lead up the tech show, hopefully have some live interviews from the show, but you’re (00:08:27) and look, the people that listen to this show, they love marketing prognostications and they love juicy tips from the tech show, maybe. There you go. Okay. On the ugly side, what sucked, Gyi?
Gyi Tsakalakis:The Award Industry episode did — like, statistically, significantly, terribly horrendous. Really bad.
Conrad Saam:I like that.
Conrad Saam:I got to talk about Zippy the chicken. I thought that’s easy. Maybe we should’ve called it “Zippy, the chicken award.”
Gyi Tsakalakis:We should have.
Conrad Saam:Yeah, I don’t know.
Gyi Tsakalakis:That’s what we should have done.
Conrad Saam:So, it actually brings up anything (00:09:00) like I wonder how much titles impacts, you know, anecdotally I think they impact what you choose to listen to especially if you’re downloading all these things.
Gyi Tsakalakis:I think so, too. Especially for the ones that aren’t like regular listeners, right? Because —
Gyi Tsakalakis:There thing is like how many of these are one-off, you know —
Gyi Tsakalakis: — plays. They don’t tell you if it’s a subscriber or not subscribers to play.
Conrad Saam:Yeah. Okay. And on that plays, we had bad reviews in the marketing vacuum. No one wants to talk about bad review, apparently.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Yeah. Which again, I — for me, I’m like that’s an important topic and no one want, but everybody’s sick of it, right?
Conrad Saam:And no one cares.
Gyi Tsakalakis:And no one knows to do about it. Yeah, no one knows what to do about it and so I feel our frustration. I’m going to listen to that episode.
Conrad Saam:Okay. There’s no more reviews next year from us, but we will do lots of juicy tips. Maybe we could extent the juicy tips like every episode we’ll give one juicy tip.
Gyi Tsakalakis:We should’ve a juicy tip segment.
Conrad Saam:Oh, maybe. I like that.
Gyi Tsakalakis:There you go.
Conrad Saam:That’s a good idea.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Juicy tip segment.
Conrad Saam:But it’s going to be in the title.
Conrad Saam:There be like featuring guest, blah, blah, blah.
Gyi Tsakalakis: (00:09:55)
Conrad Saam:And juicy tip number 7. Okay. I have a New Year’s resolution for the podcast, do you have one?
Gyi Tsakalakis:I do.
Gyi Tsakalakis:My resolution is to double — at least double our feedback. Thank you for those that emailed us ideas and volunteered to be guests and leave reviews and get on the highest tag, but, you know, this is so much more fun when the audience participates. So, that’s my goal, my resolution.
Conrad Saam:I don’t like the guess volunteers. It puts us in an awkward position of them like “no.”
Gyi Tsakalakis:Yeah. We have to — sometimes, we have to say no.
Conrad Saam:We’ve said no —
Gyi Tsakalakis:But, but —
Conrad Saam: — for a lot of people who’ve —
Conrad Saam:(00:10:36) garbage.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Well, that’s the thing, right? Don’t come to —
Conrad Saam:I should like it.
Gyi Tsakalakis: — light your garbage.
Gyi Tsakalakis:You can be an awesome Erin Levine or Eric Goldman guests, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis:I think the other thing to (00:10:45)since you brought it up like — so, we looked at it, so the guest episodes do pretty well.
Gyi Tsakalakis:People want guests. They’re sick —
Gyi Tsakalakis: — of hearing us. They want to hear a third-person in the room.
Conrad Saam:Okay. Noted. They’re sick of hearing us.
Gyi Tsakalakis:What do you got?
Conrad Saam:Next on this podcast, Gyi and Conrad do —
Conrad Saam: — silence.
Gyi Tsakalakis:I’m a man of silence.
Conrad Saam:Very stoic. Okay. So, my thing — and I’ve said this many, many times, maybe not on this podcast, but there’s this overdone concept of content marketing and I think it is backwards and it should be marketing content and not content marketing. And I think what we do are really good job of Gyi, especially with this podcast, people who know us listen to us. It’s people who don’t know us who are missing out, right? And —
Gyi Tsakalakis:Distribution is king.
Conrad Saam:Distribution over content, I like this. So, —
Conrad Saam:We’re going to put more —
Gyi Tsakalakis:All right.
Conrad Saam: — of our own effort behind marketing —
Conrad Saam: — this podcast.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Marketer versus marketer part two.
Conrad Saam:Part two. All right. It’s time to pay the bills.
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Gyi Tsakalakis:And we’re back, just in time for the Legal Trends Report Minute brought to you by Clio. I really like this one. One of the most striking differences in technology adoption among growing firms, just look at growing firms, is their use of firm reporting tools. Shocker, the reporting tools analyze for the report offer insights into key business metrics such us revenue generation, bill collection and productivity. The takeaway from this data is that growing firms are more likely to increase their revenues because they have access to the information and insights that help them assess how their business is performing, which also allows them to focus more attention on planning for additional ongoing growth over the long term.
We are going to talk about planning. I mean, you know, again it’s striking to me, we look at — go look at the report, but like there are a lot of lawyers that’s still they’re just not — they’re flying in the dark. They got no gauges. Growing firms doing better with access to data. Shocker.
Conrad Saam:Like, this is so obvious. Here’s the other thing, Gyi. I think it’s hard to get that data, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis Yeah.
Conrad Saam:There’s so much freaking data in what we do —
Gyi Tsakalakis:Right. And when metrics matter, all the stuff —
Conrad Saam:What metrics —
Gyi Tsakalakis: — that you’re talking about before.
Conrad Saam:I’ll use this example. To anyone sitting on this podcast right now, think about this, do you know the percentage of time that you answer the phone when people call you? You don’t, right? That data has been available for years, right? That’s a really important number. You’ve got it. It’s important. You’re not looking at. You don’t even know where to find it. And by the way, your agencies don’t know either, right? And so, for me, I don’t know if you’re seeing this Gyi. Like, I’m seeing more and more sophistication and effort spent on getting that part right now.
And it’s not the phone answering part but like the getting business metrics right and when you do that as a law firm, you’re not relying on people like me and Gyi who are sending you these amazing reports that have been formatted to look all beautiful and make us look like we’re amazing because that’s what we want you to think, right? It’s the firms who are getting control of their own data and the business data — it’s not like, like “please stop talking to me about H1 tags or blah, blah, blah.” Like, no one wants to talk about that. You guys want to talk about consultation so let’s do that. All right. Sorry. I didn’t mean to hijack this but like it’s so important. And as we go into the discussion of an annual planning, you can’t go from here to there if you don’t know where you are. That sounds very philosophical.
Gyi Tsakalakis:To learn more about these opportunities and much more for free, download Clio’s Legal Trends Report and clio.com/trends. That’s Clio, spelled C-L-I-O. Speaking of planning, it’s not too late to think about planning. It’s the holidays and you’re not working anyway. You listen to this podcast. If you don’t have —
Conrad Saam:Wait, this should be work. You’re getting smarter, come on.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Right. If you don’t have — you cannot bill him for it. Hopefully, it’s fair. If you don’t have specific plans around 2022, escape from drunk Aunt Sally. Who wrote this?
Conrad Saam:I wrote it.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Escape from drunk Aunt Sally —
Conrad Saam:I do not even Aunt Sally but —
Gyi Tsakalakis:All right. And ruminates on the business metrics that are important for your firm. What are those metrics? What do they look like? And is your marketing gas tank going to get you there? Conrad, to kick us off, talk about Aunt Sally.
Conrad Saam:There’s no Aunt Sally.
Conrad Saam:By the way, when Gyi and I were talking about this, the question was, is it too late for you guys to get into annual planning? And if you haven’t done it by, you know, Christmas Eve, is it too late? Are you just going to kind of move into next year with the idea of like, “hey, we’re going to grow.” What does that mean? I don’t know. It’s bigger than right now. That’s not annual planning by the way.
Gyi Tsakalakis:It’s never too late.
Conrad Saam:It is not too late to have your New Year’s resolution start in February. But in all seriousness, you’ve got some free time now. You’ve got some introspection time. You’ve got some thoughts of the future and I want you as listeners to be thinking about the business metrics, not the stupid marketing metric, but the business metrics. And, you know, Gyi, as you look at going beyond, we’re going to grow the firm next year.
Conrad Saam: What are the metrics that matter here? What are the measures that you talk to your client about?.
Gyi Tsakalakis:You know, I wasn’t even going to even talk in some of the context of our own business. But, you know, we run on EOS, Entrepreneur Operating System Traction, and we have two days of annual planning and I’m just going to give you some of the high points (00:17:52) out. I’ll try to make it a little more relevant for law firms. So, first, you go through a look back, right? You got to review your prior year, right? We can talk about which numbers you should be looking at. We look at revenue. We look at profitability. We look at retention. We look at utilization. I mean, we talked about Baker’s gauges. We look at all those gauges. And we don’t know — there’s no litigating about it, just reviewing the numbers. How did we do versus our prior — to have prior one-year plan?
We do some team health. I think this is a great opportunity. I think it still is under invested in especially in the whole remote work like that.
Conrad Saam:Yeah. What do you mean by team health?
Gyi Tsakalakis:We do some like trust — we do trust falls, no. We do —
Conrad Saam:Virtual trust falls? Please stand on your desk.
Gyi Tsakalakis:We do. There’s a bunch of different stuff, yeah. It’s all around building more trust, getting to know your team members better. Sometimes, it’s, you know, it’s as simple as being like one thing I should keep doing, one thing I should stop doing, stuff like that. But it’s really about — its uncovering things. Like, it’s creating the space to be like how can we build more trust as we move forward to the future?
Conrad Saam:All right.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Then we do an organizational checkup. That’s very formulaic from an EOS standpoint. There’s actually like — there’s these questions. It talks about like processes documented and that kind of stuff. So, it’s kind of like a more operational review type of thing. We do a SWOT analysis. So, we’re talking about our strengths or weaknesses, opportunities and threats.
Conrad Saam:It’s very B-School of you.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Well — I mean, this is just a traction playbook. You know — and again, you probably — you’ve been in B-School, you’ve heard it in many different forms but it does — again, it’s about creating space to like for getting out of the weeds of the day-to-day, reflecting, seeing where there might be some issues and then building your issues list and then we stopped all of the look back. No more looking back. We switch it to looking forward, we build our one-year plan, we build a three-year picture and we build a 10-year target and we work through some issues list and — but again, that all includes a forecast for the coming year and what are the things we need to do to actually meet the forecast.
So, I think loosely, that’s what I would do if I was a law firm. So again, it’s like whether it’s fees or numbers of clients —
Conrad Saam: Yeah.
Gyi Tsakalakis: — or adding an associate. It’s the same exercise really.
Conrad Saam:So what are the metrics on the forecast? I think that is surprisingly absent in many conversations I have with law firms —
Conrad Saam: — is a metric around the forecast.
Gyi Tsakalakis:And to me, it depends on the type of practice you got.
Conrad Saam:Okay. So, what could they be and where would you go with them and how would you nuance those based on practice?
Gyi Tsakalakis:Yeah. So, I think there’s kind of like — I’m going to really oversimplify things (00:20:36). I don’t fit in any of those categories. But I’m going to segment the entire world of the small — the SMB Law Firm —
Gyi Tsakalakis: — into two big segments. One is there’s like are you going to be a volume practice or you going to be a very limited expertise called boutique practice? And then two is what practice area or areas are you going to be? So, the most obvious one to me is this, you’re a PI firm. We work a lot of PI firms, personal injury, plaintiffs firms. Are you going to be a — if you’re going to be a boutique PI firm, you need to be thinking about really focusing on growing number of referred cases and referral sources in my opinion because again, you don’t need a million cases, you need to focus on those big cases that you’re the deep expert on and how do you get more people that are going to come in and bring those cases to you.
On the other hand, if you’re a volume PI firm, then, you know, you’re going to be different. You’re going to be like “I got a — let’s come up with what’s the share of voice for me to be the market leader in pay-per-click or search or, you know, display ascending and descending stairs,” and again I’m —
Conrad Saam:Or all of them.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Yeah, right. Everywhere. Market saturation, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis:And then, that’s just PI. It’s totally different if you’re in a different world because I’ve been — anyway, business metric wise, if I’m a volume PI firm, I won’t even be just talking about those things. I’d really be focused on new open cases, new open files, because you’re not going to probably see an ROI on — you won’t even see fees from those open files in that coming year. And so, if you’re taking a snapshot of the year, it’s open case files, right? Because if you didn’t — theoretically, you’re only opening files on cases that you think have some value and if you’re growing the open case files, likely that means you’re opening the cases that you want. Likely, that means you’re moving in the right direction or so.
Conrad Saam:Let me ask you a question on profit. It’s a bit of a leading question.
Conrad Saam:Should profit be one of your business metrics?
Gyi Tsakalakis:I think so. Again, I — this kind of depends on where in the journey you are because like, if your brand new, it’s very unlikely you’re going to be profitable in year one.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Very unlikely. I mean, I love for it to be true, but you’re probably going to lose money in year one. And so, there’s a sliding scale. If you’re more mature firm, of course, profit should be like one of your number one targets, number one Priorities.
Conrad Saam:Well, so let me ask this question. So profit and marketing, right? I think they’re frequently misaligned, right? I think most of the time people feel like the more you spend on marketing, the more profit you will generate. In a long term, that may be true. In a short term, it’s absolutely not true, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis:It also might not be true in the long term either.
Conrad Saam:Yeah. That’s another problem, right? But, you know, your marketing is — as marketers for me to say this, like you need to understand it’s discretionary and you’re borrowing out of your profit to pay for your marketing. And so to me, one of the things I look through is if you have aggressive growth goals, it’s okay to have low-to-zero profit goals, right? Because you’re re-investing back in your business and in your marketing to achieve those growth goals and growth does not necessarily need profit. I’ve had arguments with lawyers around this, but I think it’s an important trade off to think through.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Yeah, I think so, too. And again, I think it comes to where you are in the journey because another kind of like, I don’t know if it’s an axiom or something but it’s —
Gyi Tsakalakis: — run your — tenet. Run your business like you’re going to sell it. And so, if you’re running your business like you’re going to sell it, you better have profit because nobody’s buying on unprofitable business.
Conrad Saam:Fair point, fair point. But —
Gyi Tsakalakis: (00:24:10), so there you go.
Conrad Saam:One of the metrics, we started this New Year’s resolutions. I would challenge everyone here, the listeners, who don’t have this metric already. I would want to know where your consultations are coming from.
Gyi Tsakalakis:Right. Hopefully, that’s table stakes, right?
Conrad Saam:It’s not though. It’s not, right? And so, I want to be able to draw a pie graph of where your consultations are coming from a marketing perspective and it doesn’t include like the internet and Google because those are good places. To me, that would be a great New Year’s resolution, which then can lead to metrics around things like number of cases, revenue, right, et cetera, and that helps you understand the channels that you can push and once you know where your number of cases or consults are coming from, you can start to talk about things like cost per consult.
Not cost per lead, but cost per consult, right? And so, I would challenge from the New Year’s resolution perspective, try to get the infrastructure place — because by the way, we talked about Matt Spiegel earlier. There’s lots of ways for you to use software to answer this question, lots of ways. Lawmatics is one of them, Clio Grow, right? And you got to do data integration. It’s not super straightforward all the time. HubSpot is, you know, — we’re HubSpot fan boys, but like the software is out there now for the solo practitioner to answer this question with technology and if you don’t have the answer to that question, that is in this.
Gyi Tsakalakis:There you go. All right listeners, thank you so much for another year of listening to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. We really do mean it. We appreciate you listening. We love to hear the feedback. We love to hear reviews. We love emails. We love Twitter direct messages. Thank you so much. Please do feel free to engage with us and if you just landed on this, you never heard anything about this before, subscribe to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing and follow the hashtag, #lhlm on Twitter. Happy holidays, everyone. And because we probably won’t talk to you, Happy New Year. Be safe, be well, take care.
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Podcast transcription by Tech-Synergy.com