Conrad and Gyi take on the elephant in the courtroom. Clio’s Legal Trend Report shows us potential clients are interested in both pricing and payment plans, but as lawyers, we’re reluctant to go there. Why?
Explore options on how you can better position yourself. Are you less expensive than the competition? More efficient? A better value? Dig into the marketing opportunities that make you special based, in part, on your pricing model. Hey, the other guy is doing it. If it’s something you’ve never considered, it’s probably time you did.
And in the news (maybe related, just a bit!) we’re seeing a spike in inflation, even if the Fed wants to call it transitory. Look around, everything seems to be going up … except legal fees? Plus, Facebook (and its global apps) go down. In legal tech, what’s up with Smokeball legal matter management? Changes in Google marketing? Let’s talk.
Special thanks to our sponsors Alert Communications, LawYaw, and Clio.
Conrad Saam: Hey, Gyi have you purchased any lumber recently?
Gyi Tsakalakis: No, I’ve been dodging — fortunately, I’ve been dodging lumber. But I did a friend who is buying a lot of lumber for building a home and wow, lumber got expensive really fast.
Conrad Saam: How about a car? You got a new car recently?
Gyi Tsakalakis: No. I never buy a new car.
Conrad Saam: Okay. Well, that’s a fair. I think that is — their word to the wise from Gyi and Conrad.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Don’t bumper cars.
Conrad Saam: Or lumber cars. I wonder what the price of the wood paneled Jeep Grand Cherokee will be if that’s going to get just like super problematic.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Great question, and why is this stuff going on so much?
Conrad Saam: Well so macroeconomically, we’re dealing with this massive inflation and yet lawyers are not necessarily adapting their pricing to meet that inflation. I think we’re more of a lagging indicator, but we’re going to be talking about pricing.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Bring your MBA to the table today, Conrad.
Conrad Saam: So, usually you can play the JD card on this, and I feel like a little naked but I will bring the MBA card along with thoughts from my favorite book “Selling The Invisible” which talks about pricing.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Love it. So, we’ve got loads of news to report on today and as Conrad mentioned, we are going to do a deep dive on pricing and have some fun as usual. Hit it.
Intro: Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Teaching you how to promote market and make fat stacks for your legal practice. Here on Legal Talk Network.
Conrad Saam: Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Before we get started, we wanted to thank our sponsors Clio, Alert Communications and LawYaw which is now a part of Clio. We may have to go shopping for another sponsor, Gyi.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yes. If you’re listening to this and you want to get some ear balls (ph) in front of your product, give us a jingle.
Conrad Saam: Ear balls in front of the product, I like that. That was quite witty off the bat. Okay. Hey, Gyi were you on Facebook two days ago?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. I was just hammering the refresh button on my browser because I don’t have it on my phone. No, I was not.
Conrad Saam: All right. So, for those of you who have lived under a rock or who have not lived under a rock, you know that Facebook went down for about five hours.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Not just Facebook.
Conrad Saam: It was lots of stuff, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Instagram, WhatsApp.
Conrad Saam: And how much money did they lose, Gyi?
Gyi Tsakalakis: I have no idea. But Snopes says, they did some math. You just search for Facebook ad revenue and Snopes total cost impact, well, that’s worldwide. So, I don’t know if that’s the one you want to talk about. Which number you want to throw out?
Conrad Saam: No, we were talking about $300 million, or is it –?
Gyi Tsakalakis: 300 million, lots of millions in lost revenue. That’s ad revenue.
Conrad Saam: That is a big number. The interesting thing on a completely unrelated note, Gyi and Conrad agencies will now be offering a guarantee that your website uptime will be greater than Facebook’s.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. In fact, somebody actually did a pretty good breakdown (00:03:18) but uptime by major platforms. I think the other side of that was just a new segment. We’re obviously ranting on it all too much already, but there are people genuinely panicked about this. Psychologically, wow, we are hooked on this stuff.
Conrad Saam: Yeah. All right. Also in the news, Smokeball raises $30 million venture capital money for matter management. There is still a lot of money moving into legal tech. Not a surprise, but the matter management Gyi in perspective seems to be a lot more mature than some of the other legal tech options. So, it was an interesting thing to see this. Let’s put it that way.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. I think matter management is kind of — that segment is going to drive a ton of the consolidation that we’re going to see, right?
Conrad Saam: Because it’s going to be consolidated around matter management?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. I think matter management just seems like the operating system type of thing to use Jack Newton’s words.
Conrad Saam: Yeah.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Everything else flows in through matter management.
Conrad Saam: Did you say Jack Newton?
Gyi Tsakalakis: I did.
Conrad Saam: Clio Cloud Conference October 26 or 29. If you want to hang out with Jack Newton virtually, you have an opportunity to do so. And if you look not very hard on the interwebs, you will absolutely be able to find a discount code somewhere for the Clio Cloud Conference. That is the end of this month. I would strongly recommend attending that to make yourselves smarter about all things legal and technology. Also in Google News, we have started seeing whisperings and examples of the local five pack is a three pack expanding to five, that would be fascinating. And finally, Gyi I want to ask you on the news. I don’t know that this has made the news yet, but it is more of a whisper. Maybe we’ll talk about it in two weeks. Brand names showing up as local service ads. So, when I searched for Bill Smith the attorney, his brand name is showing up as a local service ad. Now why did that make you rich (ph) when you heard about this?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, I have to give a nod to my friend David Haskins because he sent me a message and was like, “have you seen this brand names and LSAs?” And I was like, “gosh, I hope not because you’re going to be paying $200 a phone call for someone who already has your name.” Short version is from an acquisition strategy, a $200 target cost per phone call for people that don’t know about you might be good. Fill that funnel up. But paying $200 a phone call for someone who already has your name might be a little high. That’s probably a conversation for whole our episode. I haven’t dug deep on this one, but lawyer’s heads-up. If you’re running LSAs and you’re seeing or your LSA show for searches on your name, might be time to call Google.
Conrad Saam: Again, this is supposed to be the news and we’re hijacking it to talk about theory. But there’s a problem with this especially in terms of Google thinking about brand names as equating to personal injury lawyer.
Gyi Tsakalakis: That’s what I think is going on. It’s a matching problem.
Conrad Saam: I think there’s a matching problem. And by the way — so let me be more explicit on what I’m talking about here. Semantically, Smith Jones lawyer can be seen by the very smart search engines as meaning “I’m looking for a personal injury lawyer in Tampa, Florida”, right? And so, it’s very possible this is what Haskins have seen, but it doesn’t change the problem. We may know why the problem is happening, it doesn’t change the problem. And so, if you are a heavy TV spender for example and people are commonly searching for your brand because if your TV spend, you’ve now just made your TV spend a lot more expensive if these LSA show up after someone looks for your brand.
Gyi Tsakalakis: And even worse, if they are showing other lawyers in the LSA section for searches on your name, right?
Conrad Saam: Yes. This will be great.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. And now it is time for the Legal Trends Report minute brought to you by Clio.
So, our big numbers from the Trends Report are that offering payment plans, is number three for consumers and number eight for lawyers in terms of what is the importance?
Conrad Saam: It’s in terms of what is important to consumers in hiring a lawyer, and then the flip question for lawyers is what is going to make you more successful?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Got it. We’re going to go deep on prices. We won’t belabor too much in the minute, but that’s one of those areas that the Trends Report does a nice job of highlighting the disparity between consumers perception and lawyers’ perceptions as always to learn more about these opportunities, pricing and much, much more. For free, download Clio’s Legal Trends Report at clio.com/trends. That’s Clio spelled C-L-I-O.
Conrad Saam: So, pricing. Now we touched on the pricing thing a little while ago, and we pulled this interesting piece out of Clio. I want to say seven or eight episodes ago where it was really talking about how pricing is seen as the second most important thing to consumers and yet the ninth most important thing to lawyers when it comes to being successful. And so, there’s this disparity and Gyi and I touched on this for a little bit, but I thought it made sense for us to come back because pricing is clearly very important to consumers and yet lawyers really see it as — Gyi, in perspective is most lawyers and I do this with my agency. I’m really good, and therefore I’m expensive, right? And I think that’s a fallacious correlation, right? I don’t think that’s necessarily always the case. I mean, have you ever bought something based primarily on price, Gyi?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. And again, just for folks that want to hear the previous conversation is the George Harris episode from Clio, on LHLM and I’m sure we’ll put that in the show notes. And this is where you’re — I want to hear what they taught you in business school about pricing. But one of the issues with pricing is it’s just, there’s not a lot — like lawyers don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it and they don’t think about it. It’s like you said, they don’t think about it from the perspective of the consumer, they don’t think about it from the perspective of the marketplace, they don’t think about it with respect of the consumer thing. Like what’s the value to the consumer. And you know most lawyers, my hunches and any good lawyers if you disagree with this or think that the tide has turned on this, most lawyers you talk to what’s your pricing? It’s an hourly rate unless you’re a contingency fee lawyer, which we can talk about that in a different context. But for most lawyers that are doing pricing in the more transactional sense, it’s usually an hourly rate and that hourly rate is usually based on their perspective of their knowledge, skill, experience, how long they’ve been practicing or as you mentioned, how good of a lawyer they think they are. That’s about it.
Conrad Saam: Yeah. And the business school answer will tell you — I mean, your entry level strategy and marketing class will teach you the four P’s. Product, price, place and promotion. We’ve talked — and then there’s someone (00:10:29) added positioning at the end of that which we’ve talked a lot about positioning. We’ve talked a lot about place, right? So, all the local services where your office is, that is the kind of crux of place. We’ve talked very little bit about pricing and my bias on pricing here is that most lawyers think on an hourly rate basis and they equate competency and value to high hourly rates. And that’s not always the case and it’s certainly not what consumers want to think about. I mean, the very simplistic. And I would say overly simplistic perspective here is that if I’m a really good lawyer, I can charge a really, really, really high hourly rate and the reality is there are some things for which consumers realize they don’t necessarily need the world’s best traffic ticket lawyer, right? And they’re sensitive to that.
Gyi Tsakalakis: You see, I think about positioning. I mean, this is where it goes for me because in my response to that would be like, “yeah, and guess what? Maybe I’m not the lawyer for them” and then you get to talk about the access to justice stuff. But I kind of think about it like this. Number one is like it goes back to who is your target audience. Are you building a business to service people who are searching for affordable divorce lawyer near me, cheap divorced lawyer near me or free divorced lawyer near me or free divorce near me or free divorce. Is that who you want to service? Because you’re going to build your whole business including your pricing to cater to that position. Otherwise, this is the thing that comes back in the context of the perception stuff. Here’s the sad thing that lawyers hate to hear. It really doesn’t matter how competent you are. It’s the consumer’s perception of how competent you are and not just competency, it’s the consumer’s perception of your service of whether there’re people feel like you’re empathetic and care about them because there’s value in that, right? Sometimes people are making decisions about which lawyer they’re going to hire based on that initial conversation of like, “you know what? You sound like you actually care about me.”
Conrad Saam: Right. The key that you brought up there I think, Gyi is the correlation, the fallacious correlation between price and quality, right? In the consumer’s mind. We buy whether you admit it to yourself or not, we frequently buy what we believe to be high quality items based on price, right? If you buy wine, you have done that. And sorry to all the owner files who I’m insulting right now, but if you buy wine you have absolutely done that. If you’ve ever bought a German car, you have absolutely done that. If you’ve ever bought a Rolex, you’ve absolutely done that. And so, there’s this correlation between price and quality. I think what I would try to challenge to our listeners here is that’s not necessarily the case. You may be really, really, really good at handling things quickly, right? You may be really, really efficient at running things that need to be run efficientl, and you don’t necessarily — I think what I’m trying to break here and this came up. We’re going to bring her up again. But with the conversation with Erin Levine where she talked about how her lawyers are making more money even though a lot of what their positioning is for Hello Divorce is not on high price. In fact, it is specifically pushing back on that concept of high price. I think she actually mentioned that in the conversation that we had last time, in the business plan, right? Like I found that people cared about price and yet we weren’t really catering to that segment. I want to shift your mindset that you can actually make more money by not competing on being the most expensive lawyer in town.
Gyi Tsakalakis: And here’s my thing on that is that I think there’s another — we tend to have this other fallacy that consumer perceptions are static, right? So, I think one of the things that something like, Hello Divorce does a really good job of is appealing to the market segment that wants an affordable divorce, educating them and then helping them draw the conclusion that, “hey, you know what? I actually do need to spend some money on this.” And so, point being that a consumer’s perceptions are dynamic, they change, right? So, it’s like a very unsophisticated consumer in certain. That’s not always true, right? Some people are very sophisticated and they’re just like at the end of the day, I just want — and the right fit for them is the affordable straightforward DIY divorce. That might be right. But a lot of times we see this with search intent someone that searches for affordable divorce lawyer near me today might end up choosing a high-priced lawyer after they’ve gone through that education process.
And that’s another thing I would tell folks is the more that you can educate those prospects and help them understand why there’s value in spending more money on your lawyer, that’s how you navigate that.
Conrad Saam: Yeah. What you just talked about, and I hate using this term because it sounds duplicitous and sneaky and it’s not. This is a Trojan horse approach, right? Like there are a lot of people trying to figure out what their financial commitment is given their legal issue. And I want to move away from divorce a little bit because it’s so obvious. This applies across the board. There are people trying to figure this out what this is going to cost me and I’m really concerned about this. We’re not doing a good job and you mentioned search in town. I want to get to this. That we’re not doing a great job as legal marketers in not addressing that question frequently.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, that’s the thing. For me — because we talked about this in the pre-show and this is the part I think so valuable for marketing podcast here and we talk about this all the time. Target cost per acquisition. Well, guess what. Target cost per acquisition is tied to lifetime value of a customer or at least target fee for a new client. And so, those are very connected. TLDR higher fee, higher target cost per acquisition.
Conrad Saam: Let me come back to something you said earlier. You’re talking about contingency fees, right? So personal injuries lawyers. How do they compete on price and transparency around price?
Gyi Tsakalakis: They don’t really. I mean, some do. I shouldn’t say that some do, but most — and again, if you’re a PI lawyer, and this is not your experience in your jurisdiction or your local community, I would love to hear from you.
Conrad Saam: Let’s talk.
Gyi Tsakalakis: But most of the time, it’s a pretty standard percentage, right? I’m taking 30%, 40% of the winnings. Now, I guess — and this is maybe what you’re alluding to is that it’s free. It’s free if we don’t win. So, what’s the price? The price is free up except if we win, we get paid on the back end. So, it’s almost like — you know, lawyers will hate to hear this, but it’s a rev share, right?
Conrad Saam: It’s fee sharing with your client. I don’t even want to say that. You don’t say that, I don’t say that. I think your point here is really valid. And this is why, this is exactly why I asked the question. There is a very limited understanding (00:17:30) population of that pricing model, right? And I do think there is value in no fee until we win, right? Because pricing becomes a big concern. And I also agree with you Gyi, down the road most consumers are not selecting their attorney based on, “hey, these guys are going to take 30% and those guys are going to take 20%”, right. I just don’t think that’s really happening.
Gyi Tsakalakis: No, I don’t think it is either. And lawyers aren’t really — I don’t think most of them are trying — the contingency fee lawyers aren’t (00:17:59) and price like this. But here’s my thing about this, because I think contingency pricing has an applicability to even, in thinking about this in other context which is you’re aligning your incentives with your client, right? I always think about it. Have you think about an agency pricing models? But hourly pricing, it’s what I call the cab to nowhere, right? We’re not connecting it to some kind of value metric, we’re just connecting it to number of hours spent. And as a former plaintiff’s lawyer, we would see this on the defense side all the time. So, defense lawyers are listening to this are going to be like, “I can’t stand Lunch Hour Legal marketing now”, but they’re going to pay for the account because they’re just billing by the hour. It’s not tied to their ability to mitigate the risk, right? The defense lawyer is not like they’re not getting paid by perceived value of the risk of the loss which the plaintiff lawyer is. They’re just saying, “Let’s just get in the car and we’ll drive this thing as long as we possibly can send you a bill and congratulations if we win. And sorry, here’s the bill if we lose anyway. My ranty point is that there’s a lesson to be learned about aligning incentives with clients from pricing standpoint and even from a business model standpoint. And this goes back to the value-based conversation, which that’s the thing that I really love talking about is just like connecting your pricing and your marketing and your positioning to the value of the expertise that you deliver to a client, that resonates a lot more than “I fight really hard. I’ve been practicing forever, and so therefore, I’m $500 an hour.”
Conrad Saam: When we come back, we’re going to go deeper on pricing into payment plans, price transparency, unbundle legal services and a lot of other MBA buzzwords all relating to marketing practice through price.
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Conrad Saam: And we’re back, talking about pricing. And Gyi, I want to talk now about payment plans. That was our tip from the Clio Legal Trends Report as being the third most important thing to consumers and yet the ninth most important thing to attorneys. Let’s talk a little bit about the number of firms that offer payment plans. 72% of consumers want them. How many firms actually offer payment plans?
Gyi Tsakalakis: According to the Trends Report, 53%. About half.
Conrad Saam: So, think about that. If you look at those numbers quickly, it’s like, “oh, yeah, 25% of people aren’t being served by firms at want payment plans.” But 72% of consumers want payment plans, right? Let me put this differently. If you don’t offer a payment plan, you are deliberately going out of your way to annoy 3/4 of the market, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, the other thing that I connect to this that comes out of the Legal Trends Report is if you don’t offer a payment plan, it’s less likely you’re going to get paid. We see lawyers constantly struggle with that as like percentage of clients who are paying. You’re creating friction.
Conrad Saam: And as a business owner, is there anything worse that you do, Gyi than chase people who owe you money?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Gosh, that really cuts deep.
Conrad Saam: Yeah, it’s brutal. I mean, it really changes your relationship with your client, right? To try and get a good review from that client, I don’t think so. You touched on this earlier Gyi about pricing, but I think the same is very true for payment plans making it clear and visible that this is something that you offer, right? We’re just missing that, right? It’s so important to lawyers. And I had an interesting conversation with (00:22:46) about just putting the payment plan icon on pages. Does that help conversion? He actually didn’t know which he should know, but making it very clear that that’s something that you embraced, that you’re there to make it easy, that you recognize that this is a really expensive nerve-wracking problem that your prospective client is dealing with. I think it’s just super important.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. It’s interesting because I would love to see some data on this. We don’t really test this. I think a lot of our clients are PI lawyers anyway, but I think it’s very interesting. It would be a very interesting thing to test the impact of pricing transparency not only on like, landing page copy but an ad copy. But the other thing to keep in mind here is the competitive landscape. So, I would be remiss to advise anybody like just throw pricing everywhere especially if your pricing isn’t competitive, right? So, if you’re leading with pricing and you’re not the most competitive price, that’s probably not your strongest position in the landscape. But I do think that these issues that we’re talking about more pricing transparency earlier leads to things like getting paid because this idea that you’re going to hide the price and then you’re going to have this big reveal at the end, not only is going to hurt your conversion rate, it’s going to annoy people. You see it in negative reviews. You know, “hey, they bait and switched me on the price, or they didn’t share the price early on. I would have hired them if I’d known they’re this expensive.” It is interesting. It’s one of those things that a lot of lawyers just don’t want to talk about, don’t want to test. They don’t come to us having these conversations of like, “hey, here’s how my pricing works.” We usually talk about in terms of big picture things like revenue and fees generated, but what’s your position on pricing I think is a really important part of the conversation.
Conrad Saam: How many times Gyi have you talked to an attorney about pricing that doesn’t involve some variant of “I’m really good, so therefore I’m expensive?”
Gyi Tsakalakis: Right. It’s funny, too. My instinct — people are probably picking up on this and tired of hearing me say it, but I’m like this. I’m like if you want to run ads, here’s what the other ads for the target queries in your location look like. So, if you can’t compete with what that ad copy says, you have to rethink either you’re going to have a conversation about how can we actually write compelling copy that is more compelling than the competition and if prices in there — we see this in bankruptcy all the time, right? Bankruptcy lawyers probably hate to hear this, but largely commoditized from a pricing perspective and why aren’t we getting any clicks? Why aren’t getting any conversions? Well, because the lawyer right next door to you is much more competitively priced in their ad copy on their landing pages. They’re much more transparent about it. Anyway, that’s where it always comes from me because I’m like at the end of the day like when we’re building plans, it’s usually built around some kind of business objective. But price has to be part of that conversation because as we talked about before, that’s what drives fees.
Conrad Saam: Well, you set this up beautifully for me because you talked about ad copy, right? But there’s a whole SEO side to this as well and what may not shock any of our listeners, like the SEO industry is kind of maxed out in terms of there’s a piece of content written about almost anything. Most lawyers don’t want to talk about price. Most consumers want to talk about price. There’s your unique opportunity to start playing the SEO game, and if you look at things like — do competitive queries for things like fees or costs or payment plans, right and see what shows up. You know what? I ran this just beforehand just to see what would happen and again, because we’ve just been talking to Erin Levine Hello Divorce. I did this for divorce. You know who’s doing a great job of content and winning traffic for people who are looking for low cost divorce?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Hello. Divorce.
Conrad Saam: The really smart directories as well, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Oh, yeah, right.
Conrad Saam: So, Hello Divorce is playing this game really well but Thumbtack is playing it, Yelp is playing it. You want to find the best cheap divorce lawyers. Now, you may not want to be on that list, but Yelp has a page for you, right? Thumbtack has a page for affordable divorce lawyers, right? I feel like I search harder and harder for those little niches in every facet of law where we can kill it from an SEO perspective. This is one game that lots of you just hold your nose at not wanting to play and you’re losing to Thumbtack and you’re losing to Yelp there. I’m just going to try and rub salt in that wound about who you’re losing it to. Yelp is beating you because they’re thinking about this and they’re doing a great job of it.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. And again, the pushback for everybody’s listening to this is going to be like, “yeah, I don’t want to participate in the race to the bottom.” And in my response to that is like, for some of you, that’s probably exactly right. None of this applies to you. But for those that are thinking race to the bottom, I think that this idea of educating the consumer through from affordable free cheap two, here’s the value that you get if you actually are willing to invest in a lawyer, that’s the play. You know, here’s your content piece. Why you shouldn’t choose the most affordable divorce lawyer?
Conrad Saam: There you go, right.
Gyi Tsakalakis: That’s just a very off the cuff kind of idea. But the point is we talk about market forces and the market, most of the market is very conscientious about price in many of these life legal contexts. And so, if you’re just ignoring org it you’re not speaking to a large segment of the market and maybe that’s not what you want to do. That’s fine. And maybe you’re somewhere in the middle where you’re like, “look, I’m going to let Hello Divorce serve the content”, but I’m going to participate in their network for the qualified as they get qualified for my services, right? And that’s I think going to be a big part of the future as well.
Conrad Saam: Yeah. I want to finish this segment with I’m stealing out of Clio Trends Report. We’re going to have to start getting more money out of Clio. We keep talking about the Trends Report, but it’s so good and yet no one has published anything that comes even close. When we’re talking about payment plans, Clio says, and this is obvious but I think it applies to everything. Payment plans should be more available and more visible, right? So, just because you do these things, that’s not marketing it, right? Making this stuff visible. And that was why I had that question around Gravity Payments. Does that convert at a higher rate? We don’t know the answer to that. We should. But the visibility.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. Like basic marketing 101, if you have a competitive advantage on pricing, you should be tying that into your unique selling proposition.
Conrad Saam: Yeah. And you’re missing if you don’t.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Right.
Conrad Saam: Okay. With that, we’re going to put Erin Levine’s podcast with us in the show notes because it was a really, really good inspirational uplifting conversation and it does get into this pricing element as well. Thank you for joining us and Gyi?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Until next time dear listener. This is Gyi and Conrad signing off. Please do subscribe via your favorite podcast subscribing thing on above and again, feedback. Tell us how we’re doing. Topics you want us to hear cover. You can hashtag us LHLM really anywhere that hashtags work or connect with us in all the variety of ways that you can. Take care.
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Podcast transcription by Tech-Synergy.com