Providing remarkable service is a no-brainer when it comes to earning a steady stream of referrals. It’s so basic that Gyi and Conrad aren’t even counting it in their lists of ways to get referrals.
So what other methods are you probably overlooking? For one: give referrals. No one said it better than Paul McCartney in a classic SNL interview with Chris Farley, “The more you give, the more you get.”
Getting clients in the door through referrals is great, but how do you budget for your marketing efforts? Whether a firm wants to take over Texas or just keep the lights on, Gyi and Conrad discuss why successful firms dedicate a portion (and how much) of their revenue towards marketing efforts. They also compare/contrast marketing effort and marketing infrastructure. Think gas v. engine.
Listen to the end, and grab your popcorn, for Gyi and Conrad’s pop culture recommendations.
Special thanks to our sponsors Alert Communications, LexisNexis® InterAction®, LawYaw and Clio.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Conrad, where are you today?
Conrad Saam: I am fresh off a plane for the first time in 18 months. Just came back from Texas.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Texas. I’m looking at you, you’re in a hotel room or you do a really amazing job at folding sheets in your house.
Conrad Saam: That’s just my virtual background. No, I’m actually in a hotel room. I’m in Chicago today for the American Bar Associations. We have some meetings about tech show and I’m excited to be out. I mean, I’m cautiously optimistic excited.
Gyi Tsakalakis: I fear after the stock market crash of yesterday or two days ago now that I’m not sure how optimistic we may go back to turtling, but it does feel like there’s more. It feels like I’m likely to see Seth Price at an airport bar more likely to happen now than the last two years.
Conrad Saam: Well Seth is at the airport bars, it’s just a matter if you’re going to see him.
Gyi Tsakalakis: This is true. This is true. We love you Seth.
Conrad Saam: Yeah, I mean everyone was at the AAJ, recently Tobi Millrood passed the gavel. He did a great job of running AAJ during kind of the COVID years. I can’t imagine that, but you know, we’re back. We’re kind of back. Again, my first business trip in a long time and it’s nice. It felt good.
Gyi Tsakalakis: How did it go? How was the trip experience? I drove, because I’m Detroit to Chicago, so I made the drive and listen to podcasts. You flew.
Conrad Saam: I’m an efficient traveler. I did a red-eye and then I got the last flight out the same day that I landed. So I don’t enjoy the travel part of travel but I do enjoy you know, like you guys. You know this, we’ve talked a lot about virtual and running a business over Zoom and blah-blah-blah. There is something very real about meeting face-to-face. And this was a prospect that I had been talking to you for two years. This is our first face-to-face and we now have a completely different relationship and nothing has changed about who we are or what we’re offering or who they are or what they need. But we now have a relationship and it’s different. It’s fundamentally different.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Speaking about face-to-face and relationships. What are we talking about today?
Conrad Saam: Today we are going into referrals. You and I are going to have a referral off, although I bet our number one recommendation for getting referrals is the exact same thing.
Gyi Tsakalakis: It’s one of two. It’s one of two.
Conrad Saam: It’s one of two. We’re going to talk about budgeting for marketing. We talked about price the other day when we were doing the Clio survey. We talked about price. We’re going to talk about budgeting for marketing and then finally Gyi, we’re going to end this with personal recommendations.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Hit it.
Intro: Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Teaching you how to promote, market, and make fat stacks for your legal practice. Here, on Legal Talk Network.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Before we get started, we wanted to thank our sponsors. Clio, Lawyaw, Alert Communications and LexisNexis InterAction.
Conrad Saam: All right, Gyi, I gave one of mine away earlier but we’re going to talk about the five ways to get referrals, right? And these may not be the best way but you know, you are in digital marketing people. We like people to spend money on SEO and ads and blah-blah-blah but I believe one of your tenants is the best marketing you can do is to get referrals, right? And then you have to pay people like us.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, I mean, is there anything better than having people come to you, right? And so the question is why would people come to you and refer people to you? And let’s talk about five reasons, why?
Conrad Saam: Okay, give me one.
Gyi Tsakalakis: You want me to go first?
Conrad Saam: Yeah, I want you to go first.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, you know, the first one and this is the one that people can’t stand. They’re going to eye roll and moan and be so annoyed by, provide remarkable client service.
Conrad Saam: That’s my number one.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Mine too. You know, all of this stuff I see online about like how to get testimonials and referrals and systems and processes, all that’s garbage if you’re not doing something to stand out and actually be remarkable that people would be like, hey, you know what? This lawyer is actually worth referring to.
Conrad Saam: Now, you said something, there’s a nuance to your comments.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Uh-oh. I hate comments.
Conrad Saam: No, no, this is very important. You said provide great service.
Gyi Tsakalakis: I said remarkable actually.
Conrad Saam: Remarkable service. What you didn’t say is be a great lawyer. Do good at the lawyering.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Everybody is a great lawyer. Haven’t you seen? Everybody is a great lawyer.
Conrad Saam: Everyone’s a ten on avvo baby.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Everyone’s a ten on avvo. Everybody’s been fighting super hard for over a hundred years. Everybody went to the best law school.
Conrad Saam: And they have combined experience, lots of.
So when I was writing this list key, I wrote tangible, right? Because I think a lot of the things that people think about in terms of in your words, remarkable service. Are those tangible things that have little to do with your lawyeringness, right? And so it’s finding those remarkable moments of delight where you’re just delivering, the way you deliver your lawyering is remarkable. And I think that’s an important nuance.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Agreed.
Conrad Saam: So be awesome. Crossing that off my list.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Be awesome. The one people can’t stand.
Conrad Saam: All right, my next one, and this is surprisingly not done. We have tried to do this for a couple of our clients. A couple of our clients to do this and the bigger you are, the more relevant this is but actually no. You can do this at any scale. Systemically, systematically, sorry. Have a referral thank you, right? But people know, and it’s actually difficult because here’s the thing, all of you know you should be doing a thank you. And none of you do it, right? And I’m probably overstating, but no. So you need to be able to capture that you know, Bill was referred to me by Molly and then Bill turned into a client. And now you have to have like a system that just automatically makes sure that Molly gets, my thank you is almost always a bottle of scotch which may or may not be appropriate all the time but like there’s a thank you. And that is a part of someone’s job. It’s a part of what you do. It’s just the way you work.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah that was on my list. It wasn’t my next one, but I have managed referrals and it goes to the thank you. But, you know, so many people especially if you have, you know, you’re a busy lawyer. You don’t have any system in place to actually manage what’s going on with referrals and so, you know, we want to know A great way to stop getting referrals. Don’t say thanks. Don’t follow up, you know, all that kind of stuff. You know, which kind of dovetails into part of my number two and these are loosely in the right order is staying in touch. And so staying in touch with former clients, staying in touch with people you’ve had relationship with, who have been good referral sources and it goes to that same thing with managing but it’s a more specific. Part of that is you know, how many times you talk to a lawyer and you’re like what are you doing to stay in touch with former clients. And they’re like stay in touch with former clients. Why would I do that?
Conrad Saam: Right. I have a variant of that. Mine is being networking badass.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Sounds easier said than done.
Conrad Saam: It is and it takes a lot of time, right? And I think the key here with the staying in touch, so staying in touch is kind of like those are people with whom you have worked. I would extend this to are you really-really giving back to your community? Are you really-really actively involved, right? And this goes back to the Gary V jab, jab, jab, right hook, which is you give, give, give, give, give and then you may not even make the ask, right? By the way, I think this and I’m going to offend our bing-bing-bing, we have offended the listeners already. I think most the attorney profile in general is not great at being a gregarious networker, right? So I mentioned the other day or yesterday, I just came back from Texas. The client that I was meeting with is what I would call a networking badass and one of the things that we talked about was their party that they throw for as he scoffed, 600 of their closest friends, right? But that’s part of what he does and that is who he is. And there are other people who do this similarly but like getting out in the community and giving back, giving back, giving back, giving back, without expecting anything in return.
Gyi Tsakalakis: That was loosely my number one, which is just be generous. Be generous of time. Be generous with your knowledge. Be generous with all the things you can be generous with and I think that goes to the idea that you’re talking about here. I think there’s no question about it. You give, you know. I’m going to totally butcher this but there was an old SNL skit with Chris Farley and Paul McCartney and there’s something about you get what you give, is that true? Again, look it up. That’s terrible.
Conrad Saam: I cannot help you with the pop culture reference as we know.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Sadly. So, I’m standing on my own. You can go look it up online. It’s on the internet. Here’s another one, which is in line with this but refer, refer out, right? So oddly, you’ll notice that the more referring that you do the more you tend to get referrals. Weird how that works.
Conrad Saam: It’s reciprocal, right? Like Gyi, I refer clients to you and you refer clients to me, right? It works. Yeah. You know what? That was not on my list, but I think it’s a really, really good one.
Gyi Tsakalakis: What else you got?
Conrad Saam: I have another one that is much more marketing.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Sinister
Conrad Saam: No, no. It’s not sinister. But those of you who are running a lot of clients, you can continue to stay top of mind to those clients with branded advertising and it does not have to be over-the-top obnoxious. But it is very easy to forget about a service provider and it is very easy and cost-effective to stay in front of your past clients, right? And it’s not obnoxious at that case. And so I really think about your remarketing doesn’t stop when they turn into a client. Your remarketing doesn’t stop unless they’re an unhappy client in which they go into the do not remarket to list, right? The last thing you want to do is send ad to that person who flamed you on Google, but I think it’s just staying in front of people and as super cost effective way to do is with remarketing.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yep. That’s a good one. The other one that I had on my list I think this rounds out my five. I’m keeping track, but I put partners, but what I mean by that is non-competitive people who might be dealing or servicing the same client base that you are.
Conrad Saam: Is this the chiropractor?
Gyi Tsakalakis: The chiropractor, you know, really any professional service provider, accountants, therapist, build the relationships with that at professional service. Now, again, it depends on your practice and depends on the clients that you serve but geographically, and this goes to that network in your local community but you know, get out there and be social and get to know people. Refer where you can with those you know, non-competitive other service providers. And you know, again, some of these stuff I say this stuff and I think this goes to your point about the systems and my point about managing it is lawyers know this stuff, but so many times we talked to lawyers and there’s not doing it, whether it’s a matter of like not prioritizing it or not managing it or they’re too busy with their heads down. I mean this is the cornerstone. it’s relationships and reputation, right? Like this is the cornerstone of successful practice.
Conrad Saam: Well you said they were a priority, it’s never a burning priority. It’s always something that can be shuttled to the back. Always. It’s never burning. And so it is a classic example of something that can get neglected because it’s never on fire. And yet the attorneys who always keep it on fire, who always make it that priority. Frankly, they spend less money with you and me, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Well, you know, it depends on you know, how much they want to grow and all that kind of stuff. But I think the other thing too is like and you would mention this with the retargeting, like the lines are very blurry between you know, adding new to the top of the funnel and getting an ad in front of somebody that actually is aware of you, right? And so, I think it’s part of the mix, right? I mean we talked about whether it’s in the context of retargeting or email marketing, like there are a lot of those services that I think you know, they dovetail with agencies that are actually doing that direct response, classic awareness, type of campaign. So anyway, but I guess the point being that I don’t even think of those as separate. Like they require the same investments, maybe the cost for acquisition is lower from a referral but it’s the same type of managed invested budgeted time and money to actually nurture those referrals.
Conrad Saam: A hundred percent. My last one is what we started this with and it’s an exhortation based on us coming out of COVID and sitting in our home office is forever. Right now, do it in person, do it in person when you can without the disclaimer of wear a mask but like we’re craving personal contact. And I can tell you, you guys know, I don’t need to tell you, you know this. Your relationship changes when you spend time with someone personally.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Totally, it’s totally different. It’s totally different.
Conrad Saam: That’s what I got. We went for 10, 5 each and I think we came up with six total.
Gyi Tsakalakis: That’s fair. We are not good at counting here. Let’s move on. Now it’s time for the legal trends report minute brought to you by Clio.
You can tell because the clock is ticking. What would you think in 2020 if I told you that law firms using technology earned over 37,000 dollars more per lawyer than law firms that didn’t.
Conrad Saam: Are you asking me this Gyi?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Would you believe it?
Conrad Saam: I would believe it because I think Clio has had us talk about this over and over again. I think they’re trying to convince you guys the technology has a business impact.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah. And I think, you know, one of their points and I think that you know, this is worn out and because you know, Clio has been talking about this for a long time, right? I think the pandemic has really like forced, and we’ve been talking about this a lot, but it’s really forced lawyers who have been reluctant to do it to be like, well you know, I literally can’t serve my clients or run my business without technology.
Conrad Saam: Right.
Gyi Tsakalakis: And so you know, at the risk of stating the obvious, 37,000 more per lawyer than law firms that didn’t, well law firms that aren’t likely we’re closed completely. So they were at zero. So even if you were just doing 37,000 you would be beating the firm’s that were closed. But in any event, if you’re not convinced how technology can actually help you earn more money, check out the Clio Legal Trends Report. They talk a lot about impact of electronic payments, client portals, client intake software that support law firm growth. The client portal one too, I mean we put this big umbrella of portals but like whether it’s a knowledge based or some way to automate a lot of the delivery of the information that you can do as a law firm. I mean it’s game changer. It’s remarkable. To learn more about these technologies and much more for free because Clio gives you this information for free. Download Clio’s legal trends report at clio.com/trends. That’s Clio spelled C-L-I-O. Let’s take a break.
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Gyi Tsakalakis: So what are the other things that is fundamental in my opinion to marketing is having a budget and conversations about how do you even start to think about a budget? You know, what goes into a budget? How do you allocate resources of firm time and money to different aspects of a marketing budget? Let’s talk about that Conrad. How do you budget? How do you recommend people budget?
Conrad Saam: Well we have a couple. I think the most important thing, not the most important thing. One of the things that’s very important is that agency is not to ask the clients what their budget is. Because you’re starting from the wrong place and it’s the wrong way for law firms to think about their marketing. The question is, what are we trying to do? What is our objective, right? And some of you guys want to take over Texas. Some of you want to keep the lights on for the next three years before you retire. Those are very different budgets, so they’re very different objectives and so I don’t think there is a one size fits all. But I think the marketing budget needs to look into what your practice area is, where you are and where you’re trying to go, right? And what kind of practice you have. Are you a high volume, low margin practice focused on efficiency? Are you a small boutique focused on the right for clients every year and those are very different things?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, no, I think the point about the objectives that’s really the starting point and you know, that’s good common sense. So let’s just take one of those examples. Like, how do you take it a level deeper, right? Like, how do you start to say, okay, I want to take over Texas.
Conrad Saam: Yeah.
Gyi Tsakalakis: How do you start to even think about the time and resources that you need to take over Texas? I mean, you know, because at the end of the day, you could be like, all right, I want to take over Texas and maybe you’re a consultant person or maybe you’re an internal person at the firm and someone’s throws out a number. And they’re like, all right, it’s going to be 10 million dollars. I’m just making this up because I’m sure it’s probably even more than that but let’s just use 10 million dollars. I mean 10 million dollars to take over Texas. I mean how do you even start deriving those numbers?
Conrad Saam: So we did a long study across all of our clients and we kind of grouped them into buckets and this starts, by the way, sorry. The metric that you’re asking for Gyi, and I don’t know that this is the perfect metric but it’s a pragmatic metric and I use the percentage of your revenue that goes to your marketing budget, right? And the reason that’s not pragmatic is if you’re a solo practitioner who wants to take over Texas, you need to go with 10 million dollars and 20 percent of the 40,000 dollars you made last year, still not going to go very far with your objective, right? So there’s a pragmatic side to this of being like all right, what can we actually finance?
Now, I’m sure there are law firms, well I mean there’s the financing of growth, right? Which I don’t even get into but pragmatically, we start with, by the way, and with an agency, that starts with we need to know what your revenue is, right? So now I’m asking like that’s an awkward conversation right off the bat. Like we just went on our first date and you’re asking me what’s my salary kind of thing. But it’s an important conversation and it’s an important grounding. And then I look with the firms, like where are you trying to go? If you did two million dollars last year and let’s take the take over Texas concept, right? It’s going to take a long time self-finance to take over Texas but you better be putting in 20 percent of your revenue back into the take over Texas part. And here’s the reality Gyi, money finances growth. The other way of saying that is you’re accepting lower profitability to finance that growth, right? So that’s the trade-off, like you can choose not to grow and you can be much more profitable, right? And that’s okay, but like I think many firms don’t. I mean, we talk about marketing dollars as an investment not a cost, all this kind of stuff. But like it eats right away from the bottom line, period. There’s no two ways about that.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Right. This is a thing that you got to. You know, it should start with your objective, but you know, look, this is the same thing when we talked about new ideas and stuff is like, I like the idea of time travel. Well, that’s great, right? Okay, I want to be able to travel in time. Like show me how to do it, right? So it’s the same thing with the objective, like you can walk in and be like, I want to take over Texas and it’s like, yeah, I’m doing it so now you’re going to get into a quest like you had mentioned. You are quick, what are your options? Well you can finance it so now you can talk about of your risk tolerance level and like where you are in your life. But I think for most firms, I’m with you on the it’s some function of your financials because you know, look, yeah, for someone that is maybe starting out and they have huge aspirations and a very high risk tolerance, maybe they go and try to get a loan or get financing or VC money or something, I don’t know. But for most firms, it’s got to start with well, let’s look at our P&L and that’s another thing that you’ve mentioned that’s going to be an awkward conversation to have but I don’t see how you can have a realistic budget that’s not somewhat grounded in your P&L. And whether it’s a percentage of your overall revenue or percentage of your gross profits or a percentage of your actual profit, it has to be somewhat connected to that. And so then they go of course they go, all right Gyi and Conrad, we believe you, what’s the right number. And then I think there’s some flexibility there, but when this question comes up, I always kind of refer back to the SBA and of course not every business fits into the SBA guidelines for the size of businesses and types of businesses they are talking about. But they give a lot of ranges on this and so you know, I think low-end you’re probably at six percent high-end, you’re probably in the 20 percent, you know if you want to kind of find in the middle, people are like give me a number of like 12 percent. But again, it goes back to, it’s almost like Yin and the Yang. It’s like your objectives that are like filtered through your risk tolerance and your finances. The conversation has to evolve from those factors in my view.
Conrad Saam: So let me pull one piece out. There are definitely firms with that great reputation and that just do the networking side of things, and they have no objective to grow bigger, right? Like I have a few clients that fall into the like, we’re great, were well-known. I need a web presence because people are going to look me up and that’s fine. I have no desire to take over the world and you know why I call those kind of rest on your laurels clients, right? And we don’t have many of them because we’re not a good match for those. You started with six percent which is interesting, so we’ve bucket this into six different buckets of what kind of firms look like based on their business objectives and then looking at across our clients what we believe probably not fairly accurately but what we believe to be their percentage of marketing, their marketing it as a percentage of the revenue what we call growth both companies which are looking to go between 0 and 20 percent growth, which is a fairly organic growth rate. Typically, we see them spending between six and eight percent of their overall revenue on marketing, right? And that represents most law firms, right? The reality of many law firms of where they think they are. The next bucket that we have is what I call aggressive growth and this is a firm, literally are these right now, firms looking to establish or maintain market leadership over a three to five-year horizon, right? Those firms typically are in the 10 to 20 percent and then I have what I call high volume low margin where this is pejoratively going to come across and I say this and I wouldn’t say it to a client but now that you’re all listening, this is what we say behind your back.
This is the Walmart of law approach, right? Where you are focused on efficiency, it’s typically personal injury. The firm is extremely well run, it’s very efficient, you tend to not take things to trial if you’re a PI firm, you’re focused on settlement. You’re not paying your lawyers a lot, right? But there are lots of them and so those marketing spends, that’s typically in the 15 to 35 percent, right? So those are the firm’s that are just highly efficient machines and they make it up on scale. That’s how we kind of break it down.
Gyi Tsakalakis: You know; this is loosely related to this conversation but I think it’s worth mentioning. I think another way of thinking about your investment is you know, like you said, if you’re going to do it, if you’re investing of gross coming from profit, that profit you’ve got, that’s your money. So where are you going to invest it? You know, so is it a better investment to invest in yourself and your business, right? Firms are businesses whether lawyers like to hear that or not.
Conrad Saam: Heresy.
Gyi Tsakalakis: You know, you can take that money, you can go put it in the market. You can take that money; you can go save it. You can take that money, you can put it back in your business, but I think that’s another part of the conversation when you’re thinking about making investments in your business is what’s your projected return for dollars that you spend to grow your business.
Conrad Saam: Bet on yourself baby. If you’re not going to bet on yourself, go work for someone else, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Exactly.
Conrad Saam: I mean that. When we were doing all these studies, this is a really interesting piece of data that I haven’t seen before and I haven’t had published or talked about but one of the things that we looked at was marketing infrastructure versus marketing effort. And the marketing effort is things like your ad spend to Google, your infrastructure is your call tracking in Google analytics and all of the things that determine whether or not that is actually working.
Gyi Tsakalakis: This is your gas versus engine.
Conrad Saam: This is my gas versus engine, right? And so one of the things that we found across our clients is surprisingly consistent. The infrastructure spend was typically in the teens, in the mid to low teens. And it picks up the smaller you are so like the smaller the firm you are, the more you spend on infrastructure as a percentage. So like you might be at a 20% infrastructure spend but what you don’t want is you don’t want to so over invest in infrastructure that there’s nothing left over to actually drive traffic to the website or your phone or create appointments.
Gyi Tsakalakis: You’ve got that Formula One race car but you can’t afford the jet fuel.
Conrad Saam: Yeah, it’s the car in the garage. It’s the Ferrari in the garage that no one ever sees, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Right, or vice versa, you’ve got cars, not-so-great filled with gas, like all the passenger seats are filled, gas is leaking out the windows.
Conrad Saam: Exactly. Yeah, and you don’t know it, right?
Gyi Tsakalakis: Right. All right, ad break.
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Gyi Tsakalakis: And so something that we haven’t done before but we’re going to start doing more regularly to let you know what’s going on with us, we’re going to talk recommendations. So one recommendation from me, one recommendation from Conrad. Let’s see where this goes and please do tell us what you think if you have recommendations for us that you would like us to share. Conrad, give us one recommendation, something you’ve read, listened to, saw, done or live vicariously through your children.
Conrad Saam: Most of my life is living vicariously through my children. So, I had the entire, like we’ve been working remotely. We had the entire agency come together for the first time in two years last week or two weeks ago, times kind of melding into one. And one of the things that we ended up talking about as agency was favorite movies. And I am not a pop culture person. I don’t watch television. I don’t watch movie. I don’t remember the last time I sat in a movie that wasn’t geared towards children, but this is my recommendation, and it’s so corny and thick, but it’s real. Go watch Good Will Hunting, right? If you need to pick me up, go watch Good Will Hunting and remember that Robin Williams committed suicide, which is super brutal in the context of watching that movie. It just is kind of mind-blowing to me, but I think you will leave watching Good Will Hunting wanting to make your own life a better place. And I will stop with the corniest right after I say this next part.
I went back and chased after a girlfriend of mine after two years of us being apart at the end of Good Will Hunting because of the end of Good Will Hunting, and she’s now my wife. So go watch Good Will Hunting and it’ll make you a better person.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Wow, your recommendation is a lot deeper than mine. Thank you for sharing that. I love Good Will Hunting. Clearly the bar is low because you’re a self-professed don’t watch movies or TV at all. I love movies. I don’t know if I would call myself an aficionado of movies but I do love movies and my recommendation but technically it’s not a movie, it’s a Netflix series that I was introduced to by a friend called The Knick, have you heard of The Knick?
Conrad Saam: I haven’t heard of The Knick. I did recently hear this thing called Game of Thrones.
Gyi Tsakalakis: Yeah, your recommendations over. Yours is way too deep. Mine is very superficial but The Knick, it’s medicine at the like I don’t know, I guess it’s like 1900-ish where we are right now. Clive Owen, the doctor at this hospital, The Knickerbocker in New York and you know, it’s pretty graphic, so if you’re a little bit sensitive, queasy on the medicine stuff, don’t watch it. But you’re basically seeing all the issues that they deal with at this hospital, politically, financially and also in the operating room being like you know experimentally and really enjoy it. Really pretty good writing. I don’t think, there’s only two seasons so it’s a short watch, but I’ve really enjoyed that one so I’d say check it out. I don’t think it’s going to give you the purpose and meaning that Good Will Hunting will, but if you need something to be running in the background while you’re working on cases, I’d say check it out.
Conrad Saam: Game on.
Gyi Tsakalakis: And with that, we are at the sad conclusion of another episode. I know this is one of Conrad’s and my favorite things to do, I hope you continue to enjoy it and if you do, please do leave us a review, provide feedback, check out the hashtag LHLM. Follow us on your favorite podcast podcasting tool and we will talk to you next time for another episode of Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Thanks so much.
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