COVID-19 Resources for Lawyers
Your Hosts
Gyi Tsakalakis

Gyi Tsakalakis founded AttorneySync because lawyers deserve better from their marketing people. As a non-practicing lawyer, Gyi is familiar...

Conrad Saam

After leading marketing efforts for Avvo, Conrad Saam left and founded Mockingbird Marketing, an online marketing agency focused exclusively...

Episode Notes

After reviewing the latest marketing-related news and trends coming out of the 2020 Clio Cloud Conference and Clio’s 2020 Legal Trends Report, and especially Clio’s new “Clio for Clients”, Gyi and Conrad return to their recurring “Rebrand This Podcast” segment.

Over the last couple of episodes, Gyi and Conrad used this podcast as a case study in rebranding. The two reveal their decision and move to the next step: marketing.

Continuing with the podcast as a case study, these marketing pros will compete to see who can best build the show’s audience. Listeners are the clear winners because they’ll get practical strategic and tactical advice related to their own law firm marketing efforts along the way.

Special thanks to our sponsor Alert Communications and LexisNexis® InterAction®.


Lunch Hour Legal Marketing

Marketer vs. Marketer



Gyi Tsakalakis:  Conrad.


Conrad Saam:  Gyi.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Go blue.


Conrad Saam:  Go blue, Gyi.  I’ve got my Michigan shirt on.  As of this recording, we are days away from the debut of the Big Ten football season.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Can’t wait.


Conrad Saam:  I can’t wait.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Because the only thing that I’ve been watching recently are virtual legal conferences.


Conrad Saam:  And I suspect we’re going to be doing virtual football as well but at least they will be in person.  I’m missing these conferences.  I’m missing the in-person stuff.  So talk to me a little bit about Clio.  I know you lurked through there and there were some big, big items that came out of that.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, I mean, I got to tell you I think Clio is the game to beat in virtual legal conferences.  They were the game to beat in in-person conferences and wow, what a great job.


Conrad Saam:  Okay, so I do have to push back on that.  I have a question.  I heard all sorts of stuff including from Bob Ambrogi about the absolute cluster they had in getting the technology working and so it sounded like there was — like literally sounds like there was a lot of behind the scenes uh-ohs going on as they figured out the conference.  Can you agree with Ambrogi or at least talk about the problems that they had.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, the platform did have posed some problems, some of its user issues as well.


Conrad Saam:  Right.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  But to Clio’s credit they were able to quickly facilitate a live stream on YouTube and gave people a couple of options and then, you know, that was early on.  I think as the conference went on, the platform got their act together and so you know combination of things.  I mean, look I think some — I heard a lot of feedback like Zoom doesn’t work and it’s like, “Really?  Zoom doesn’t work?”


Conrad Saam:  Well, but how many times do you get on a Zoom meeting and have trouble starting that conversation?  I spent all day on Zoom and I’m going to say one out of three of the Zoom calls does not start smoothly.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Wow, that’s that seems high, that’s not my experience but —


Conrad Saam:  I’m not suggesting it’s our fault.  I’m suggesting it’s our prospective client’s fault.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Sure exactly so that’s the thing.  It’s you know it’s the — lot of its users but I thought that that was a pretty in the grand scheme of things like people were frustrated early on and you know look with 4,500 attendees —


Conrad Saam:  Right.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  4,500 lawyer attendees, chances are there’s going to be one or two people who are like, “how do I turn my computer on?”


Conrad Saam:  Right, right.  So I would suggest for all of you guys thinking about conferences right now, the key on this here you can actually get to more great content than you used to be able to because you used to have to get in a plane and fly to Pilma or fly AAJ or fly to Ayla or get in the car and go to your Pennsylvania State bar in the middle of nowhere solo convention and now we can get this content.  I suspect there is some level of virtual conference fatigue.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Oh for sure.  I mean, you know, and again, to their credit I think Clio did a nice job of giving some great conferency information but you know they also had great entertainment too.  So, you know, you were listening to music, they had some cooking classes.  Anyway, they kept it really interesting and you know look, I think the same thing we talk about with in-person a lot of the quality of the conferences is driven by the attendees and so you know Clio has done a really nice job of curating a culture and a community around the conference that it was — I think another Ambrogi quote that I know I retweeted talked about how it’s well beyond a legal technology conference it’s a law practice conference and like I said, I mean, I’m thoroughly impressed. I think if — I think folks should be engaging that community and you know, there’s other ones you know we have our modest conference that we’re really proud of.


Conrad Saam:  Are we calling each other?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Are we–


Conrad Saam:  Modest conference.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Modest conference.


Conrad Saam:  We’re not going pitch it here.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  I thought that’s what the M stood for.  You have to go look it up, go look up Conrad’s conference.


Conrad Saam:  Conrad’s modest.  We’re not going to pitch it here.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  I heard great feedback from lawyer(ph) and her mom.


Conrad Saam:  That was awesome.  Great event.  Well done Carolyn and I’m glad that we were able to give away some of the tickets that we had through the listenership to this podcast.  That was great.  Today, we’re going to go over three things.  We’re talking about news very quickly but part of the news ties directly into the Clio conference.  Because Clio made a big announcement that if you don’t know about you’re behind the times.  Two, we’re going to buy the numbers specifically talking about a couple pieces of content from the Clio trends report and I don’t want to make this a complete Clio love fest.  So, we’re going to then move into our final section on rebrand that podcast which is evolving into market that podcast and when we do rebrand the podcast we’re going to talk about why we decided not to rebrand the podcast.  And then we’re going to talk about how Gyi and I have talked about marketing this podcast with the fundamental marketing elements that you should be thinking about when you’re marketing your law firm.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  And with that I will plug in the turntable and hit the music.






Advertiser:  Welcome to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing.  Teaching you how to promote market and make fat stacks for your legal practice here on Legal Talk Network.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Welcome to lunch hour legal marketing.  Before we get started, we would like to thank Alert Communications for sponsoring this episode.  If any law firm is looking for call, intake or retainer services available 24/7/365, just call 866-827-5568.


Conrad Saam:  And also LexisNexis Interaction, the leading client relationship management solution, purpose built for the way law firms engage with their clients.  Learn more at  Now Gyi, before –and I told you we have this really kind of clear agenda.  I want to talk about interaction because this has started across my plate and we so far have not really talked about any of these sponsors directly and so I want to just bring this out.  Interaction is a product out of LexisNexis and we’re working on a project kind of in a corporate law space to combine that with some of HubSpot’s awesome CRM and marketing automation functionality.  So, when you’re hearing about some of the sponsors to this podcast, know that like we’re also backing this up.  We’re just not throwing anyone who throws money at us.  It’s stuff that we’re actually working with so with that I’m going to move to the news.




Conrad Saam:  All right here’s the news.  Starting with — last time we started with an acquisition in the legal tech space.  Today, we’re going to start with an acquisition in the legal tech space.  In fact two.  Gyi what’s going on in the MNA legal tech financial world?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Well, lots of chatter, lots of consolidation and some deal-making rocket matter and time solved picked up by private equity last — no, last month was my case.  I’m reading the notes here.  This month is rocket matter and time solved.


Conrad Saam:  So congrats to Larry Port.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yes, awesome.  I think we’re going to continue to see this trend.  We’ll probably be talking about this every week.


Conrad Saam:  Yeah.  I mean and —


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Why does it matter to listeners?  Why does it matter?  I’m a lawyer, who cares.


Conrad Saam:  I think for me there’s a couple things where this becomes really interesting.  We talked about this last week and maybe we should stop beating this horse but you’re going to see especially with the fact that they’re picking up things like rocket matter.  You’re going to see an increased level of sophistication in the way law firms are run and that is a very oblique way of me saying you’re going to see more MBAs mixing with the JDs because when you have PEE you introduce MBA to the JD for one of any more acronyms we can throw that out but it’s going to get more efficient, more customer focused and more technology running this more effectively.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Cool.  What else we got?


Conrad Saam:  Is it okay if I talk about Google Screened again.  We’ll talk about it very quickly.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  People are going to be like these guys just talk about two things over and over again.


Conrad Saam:  This part of your podcast is brought to you by Google Screened because so many of you guys are spending money on it.  So, Google Screened which we’ve talked about before, paper lead, top of the search results, if you’re not there you’re out of the game.  If you don’t know about that go google it and yell at your agency, but they have moved since we last spoke not surprisingly to a bidding model.  Gyi, what does that mean from the economics in Google Screened?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  That means that you can now bid on paper lead versus what was it before?  It was fixed —


Conrad Saam:  It was fixed cost.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.  So, you’re going to see, guess what?


Conrad Saam:  That by demand.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  In theory that means it’s likely you’re going to see those awesome fixed flat fee lead prices start to go up as people bid more on them.  That’s the theory.


Conrad Saam:  100 percent.  Now, you should panic if you’re not part of this program, but you should also know that Google hasn’t rolled this out for all practices in all places.  And so, if you’re not seeing it don’t be surprised but at least have a plan to be there when it does start showing up.  I will leave it at that with the Google Screened.  This is not an endorsement, right?  But just know about it and get ready for it.  The other thing Gyi and I was not here for this, so I want to pick your brain.  At the Clio event there were two unveilings.  You want to talk about Clio for Clients?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Sure, so I’ll tell you what I know, which is not a ton, but Clio for Clients, new app from Clio that’s going to allow lawyers to interface directly with clients.




Jack Newton talks a lot about becoming the operating system for legal.  This seems to be that communication layer facilitating that contact between lawyers and clients and so that’s going to be an exciting space.  I think we’re going to see a lot of movers in there and so I think that’s going to be a very interesting thing.  They’re very focused on better experiences for both clients as well as lawyers and I think that’s a big part of that piece and then the thing that I also jumped out of me, which was really, really savvy I think is this Google My Business integration.


Conrad Saam:  Yes.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  So you can verify and my hunches start managing Google My Business right inside Clio.  Huge leg up, I don’t know anybody else in legal that’s doing that.


Conrad Saam:  I know no one else in legal is doing that.  I’ll go that far to say that and I did get a call from someone at Clio asking for an introduction to someone at Google not that long ago.  I suspect it was to facilitate this exact partnership and they moved on this really, really quickly.  So, really fascinating to see how fast Clio and Google went on a first date.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  I would have always thought that we’d see something like this from Avvo.

Well, you know.


Conrad Saam:  Are you prodding me?  So, for those of you who listened to the very first time Gyi and I did a podcast, I introduced us working together with an anecdote where I once told Gyi that I was always the kid in the principal’s room in high school and junior high.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  And I was the kid that put you there.


Conrad Saam:  Gyi was the kid who – Gyi told me he’s like I was the kid who was whispering behind you.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Do it, do it, do it.


Conrad Saam:  All right, moving on.  You want it?  Okay.  I’m going to take your bait cause you threw it out there.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  All right good.  Great.  Perfect.


Conrad Saam:  And then our listeners are going to be like what are you talking about?  So I have to do —


Gyi Tsakalakis:  So I was prompted to do that by pretending like I was moving on?


Conrad Saam:  I know, I know.  It’s so bad.  You should have been a psychology major.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Or a lawyer.


Conrad Saam:  Yeah, maybe it’s the same thing.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Or a marketer.


Conrad Saam:  Okay.  That’s all in one.


Gyi Tsakalaki:  All the worst things.


Conrad Saam:  So the very quick anecdote here on this is the reason Gyi said Avvo is when Mark Britton left Avvo with the internet brands acquisition happened, you’ll now see Mark Britton at Clio with a big integration with Google.  Put those two things together, right.  I would have expected something like this coming out of Avvo and they have just gone silent.  I’ve heard nothing about Avvo for ages.  So, moving on, sorry about that.


Gyi Tsakalaki:  No problem.


Conrad Saam:  But you pushed me into it.


Gyi Tsakalaki:  Well it brings us conveniently to my favorite segment which is Buy the Numbers.  A lot of great numbers in the Clio legal trends report —


Conrad Saam:  What’s your top pick? I’ve got one but I want to know yours.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Well, I don’t know if it’s my top one.  I tried to pick a couple that really jumped out at me.  One is maybe not surprising but I think I’ll be curious to get some listener feedback, but 56 percent of consumers prefer video conferencing or a phone call.  Not terribly surprising, I think that the inverse though is that lawyers have been slow to adopt video conferencing over a phone call.  I think pandemic has accelerated some of that.  But you know people want to be able to see you.  They they’re dealing with very difficult issues and things in their life, they want a video conference.


Conrad Saam:  Hey Gyi, I want to ask you a question on this.  I’m going to riff on this number and then I want to go to my favorite number that I got out of the Clio trends report and I literally had this conversation this morning with an attorney, established attorney, good reputation, blah, blah, blah.  He was saying that not being able to meet with prospective clients in his office was really, really hard.  He’s a fixed fee criminal defense attorney and he’s expensive, right.  He’s basically saying that it’s very difficult for someone to write a check over the phone and so his conversion rate has just really taken a hit with this whole thing.  The other thing that we talked about was the notion of getting their intake people working on video, doing intake via Zoom as quickly as possible.  I’m just curious and I don’t have any anecdotes, I don’t have any experience or opinions on that, but like have you worked with any firms that are moving to that intake into a video conference environment?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  I think a lot of firms are – I think you know there’s some — you can do some pre-screening so like not every single form fill is a video intake.  But your qualified potential clients coming in think a lot of firms are moving to that model.


Conrad Saam:  Okay.


Gyi Tsakalakis: I didn’t catch a number in there by the way.


Conrad Saam:  Oh, here’s my number.




Gyi Tsakalakis:  Oh.


Conrad Saam:  This is a cover your ass number for me and you.  So let’s call this out for being self-serving.  Clio trends personal injury down 20% with COVID.  Okay.  So, the reason I say this is a COIA number here is if you guys are annoyed with your SEO vendor and your name is Alex or Jeff, just say or maybe some other names too, but certainly if your name is Alex or Jeff, maybe be happy that you’re flat and not down 20 percent, right?  So I think my big picture here is COVID has had a massive impact on the legal industry.  Get your hands on the trends report.  Get an understanding of what’s happened for your specific practice area and set your understanding and expectations for what marketing achieve and where they should be focused based on what’s going on in the macro climate because there are more exogenous variables messing around with how things are working in the marketing world than there really ever have been before.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Oh exogenous.


Conrad Saam:  Exogenous.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  With that, let’s see a quick break for our sponsors.




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Gyi Tsakalakis:  As we do from time to time to express our gratitude for our dear listeners, we would like to spend a moment reading some of our recent reviews.  First from our friend Willie Peacock, #lhlmbrand, I like the straightforward name of the jingle I love it.  But I took it as intentionally over the top given the credibility of the hosts.  #lhlmbrand from Willie.  Thank you Willie.


Conrad Saam:  Thank you Willie.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  We really appreciate that.  I think perhaps you gave us more credit than we deserve.  And for folks that have been following along you know we’ve been on this journey about rap music here’s a recent rap music shout out.  Recently I found your podcast and I’ve only listened for a few episodes.  I wanted to respond to the comment that rap music is not good or should be changed.  I like it.  At the end of the day, the reason why we are listening to your marketing tips is to make money at our firm.  It’s about 30 seconds.  All the haters can deal with it.  Keep up the good work.  Thank you so much and please do leave reviews for us both on Apple Podcasts or you can send them to #lhlm or #lhlmbrand on Twitter.


Conrad Saam:  So Willie brings up the straightforward name and we talked a little bit about the importance of name within a brand name for a law firm but also within the podcast the legal marketing part of that both from an SEO as well as what is this about very, very flagrantly clear.  This is a great segue into our next segment Rebrand That Podcast.




Conrad Saam:  I talked about how there’s dissonance with the money focus on the theme song and that has come back a couple of times and I do appreciate the compliment of given the credibility of the hosts and i think that’s part of this for us.  I’ll continue to think on the jingle but we have decided to keep the name Lunch Hour Legal Marketing and we spent a lot of time, we talked to the people at Legal Talk Network, we talk to each other a lot about this and Gyi for me this comes down to the value and importance of brand consistency, right.  There’s so much intrinsic value in a consistent brand that there has to be a very, very, very compelling reason to make that shift.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Right.


Conrad Saam:  And so I will give my own anecdote on this.  We changed the name from mockingbird to cockroach when COVID came out and the theme on that was survival, right?  We just want to help our firm survive COVID.  We came up with an amazingly brilliant logo done by many designer that did rift off of the mockingbird logo theme, blah blah.




It was super, super excite. Such a nightmare because people had no idea why we were doing, what we were doing and while it was so intrinsically obvious to me it was really confusing for people. And so just reinforce the value, Gyi did you like the cockroach pivot or did you think it was stupid.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  I thought it was interesting. I mean, the other side of the rebrand ideas is that it might be a way to give your brand a little bit of a boost, right. And your kind of clever with it because it was like a temporary rebrand and you went back. Yeah, I think tactically because again, I want to keep as much tactic here as we can think about. Because one of the things we talk about a lot in states that allow trade names and in the context of Google My Business is renaming your firm to include practice keywords and sadly it works for that purpose but tactically, I think –


Conrad Saam:  Hey, just before I want to be like let’s be very specific. Because you just gave a really good tactic that I’m afraid. There’s at least four listeners who are like what is he talking about.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  All four.


Conrad Saam:  So for you four, and if you don’t know what Gyi’s talking about let’s go into key. Explain what you mean by changing your name to include keywords. What are we talking about here?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  So Google My Business, you search for things Google My Business is in the local pack and in the knowledge panel for business listings. If you change your business name, it’s got to be a real change. It can’t just be you make up a new name but if you actually register a new DBA, you register with the bar where tradenames are allowed in your state and you update your name in Google My Business. You can get a big bump out of having the keywords so Conrad’s personal injury lawyers or Conrad’s personal injury, Seattle Personal Injury Law Firm is going to do better than just Conrad by himself or by itself.


Conrad Saam:  Exactly. And sometimes you don’t even have to be a lawyer to have those keywords actually showing up. You could be say, some dude in a house in North Carolina. Selling those leads back to lawyers.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Right, sketchy. But anyway I think another tactic though in the conversation about rebranding more generally is, is how do you even measure like brand equity, right. So if you’re like some firms we know you open Google Search Console which can measure and show you the impressions for searches on your name or you open a google ads account where you’re in an account that’s bidding on your name or your firm name. You can really see how regularly people are searching on that and as if there’s from that standpoints a good metric on. If nobody’s searching on your name and you don’t have a ton of brand equity, that goes in the column of like maybe a rebrand isn’t as you’re not going to lose as much, but if people are searching on your name. They know your name, your brand established. You got to be very careful. You can do the rebrand because it’s like Conrad said you can dilute your brand. You can split the authority up. People get your brand confusion issues especially if you know if you’re historically your name has just been your name and you share your name with other lawyers and you start messing around with that, the market gets confused.


Conrad Saam:  And it’s very easy to confuse computers especially we

get this a lot on the branding side. If you’re at a firm Smith Jones and Murphy,

and Murphy leaves and starts his new firm but Smith Jones doesn’t update their name on Yelp, et cetera. like this becomes a major problem. And then you have people calling Smith

and Jones asking for Murphy sometimes Smith and Jones plays nice. Sometimes they take that client. I’m sure Gyi you’ve gotten in the middle of these fights I have been. My agency has been threatened by lawyers for having gotten in the middle of these fights so it’s a mess. The branding mess that you guys have as lawyers is very, very real when you

make these changes and I think the big picture for me is brand consistency is very, very important. So no more rebrand that podcast. What we’re talking about now is completely different. We want to talk about marketing that podcast so, Gyi when you and I talked about what do we need to do in order to market that podcast, two things we talked about. One was don’t assume just because we generate the best, most amazing insightful, funny, engaging content that people are going to show up. That is a failing perspective that a lot

of you have about SEO, about social media and about podcasts. You have to market it. Two, we looked at the business metrics like what are the real business metrics that we need to be thinking about and we’re going through this exercise on the podcast about marketing podcast so you guys can think about the same framework for your own law firm. So Gyi when we think about marketing this podcast, what are the key numbers that we were talking about in terms of the business metrics?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  For us we really started focusing on subscribers downloads there’s events that we can track on the actual podcast page and so corollaries for law firms obviously, you want to attract clients. Obviously, you want to attract qualified leads.




If you’re a lawyer listening and you have a podcast you’re thinking about podcasting I think this is the way to start evaluating that like if you can’t translate subscribers and listeners into some business metric for your practice beyond awareness, I think you really got to consider if it’s a good use of your time, unless it’s just a hobby. You just really like to talk about whatever it is you like to talk about. Always tie marketing metrics to some kind of business metric really, really important.


Conrad Saam:  And you mentioned tracking there, as we’ve talked about

marketing this podcast can you talk a little bit Gyi about conversion tracking, google analytics and what we are able to look at and what more importantly, what and where we aren’t able to look?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Right, the first place that I always look for any kind of search data is Google Search Console so basically gives you a window into what’s going on with your site. In Google’s eyes and you can see things like impressions, positions and clicks in organic results and so we’re looking for things and this comes where the brand thing comes into place so people are searching on legal podcasts, Lunch Hour Legal Marketing and legal tech podcast and so we get a list of those queries that gives us a good sense to start to size the market up. The second thing we look at is Google Analytics so we drive LegalTalk network drives traffic through the LegalTalk network website where the podcast and the episodes actually have pages and so the Google Analytics, you can track people that are landing on that page by source and then when they get there you can also track things like events like click the play button or clicked the download button or clicked in one of the podcast subscribe links that are there. Those are the things we really focused on those events and those clicks and ultimately subscribes but for folks that are familiar with podcasting still kind of the wild west in terms of those real valuable metrics, right so like we drive some people to the Apple Podcast link at pure opacity once they go there. Black hole, we don’t know what happens.


Conrad Saam:  So Gyi, I want to ask a question, just to define some terms because what you said is actually super important and I think most many lawyers are not getting this. You said you can track conversions by source, right?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah.


Conrad Saam:  Can you just go back and tell our lovely listeners what you mean when you say by



Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah and I don’t want to get — we can talk channel source and medium but you can look up the actual details for GS Analytics but I think for the purposes of our listeners, it’s where they’re coming from. Are they coming from organic search? Are they coming from paid search? Are they coming from Facebook and you can get — as you know, you can get really, really granular in that or they coming from your email newsletter? And so in conjunction, some of that stuff Google Analytics will track automatically or automagically. They know source medium data but if you want to get down to campaign and content and that kind of thing, you need to be looking into adding UTM parameters to your URLS, which is a little bit more complicated but really not that complicated. Just search for a UTM campaign builder, free tool it will guide you through creating them. You add them to your URLS and now you’ve got some real granular tracking to your pages.


Conrad Saam:  So the UTM parameters, basically I’ll use a very simple – I’ll in fact we’ll use it. Maybe Gyi and I want to know if a picture of Gyi and Conrad does a great job at driving people to listen to the podcast or maybe a picture of a spitting larva with headphones behind a volcano that’s exploding, right. Which of those work? I actually don’t care which, I’m curious but I don’t care which. What I want to know is did they work, and so with a UTM parameter, you can actually run both of those pieces of creative and track down to those actual downloads was it the (00:28:50) or was it Gyi and Conrad in a certain tie, right. And that’s where you start getting to a point where you’re making really, really smart decisions and I like to think of this as a very simplistic matrix. You have along one side of the matrix. You have a series of different creative (00:29:10) Gyi and Conrad maybe Bob Ambrosio talking about how eloquent we are, right. That would be the third one. And then you want to see where you can actually send that. So Gyi what are some of the places we could market this, right. We’ve got LinkedIn display,–


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Facebook.


Conrad Saam:  We could run pay-per-click on this. We could run Facebook. We can –


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Email campaigns.


Conrad Saam:  Emails. Should we try Instagram? No.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah, absolutely.


Conrad Saam:  Okay, we should try Instagram.

Gyi Tsakalakis:  Why not.


Conrad Saam:  Hold on I want to stop you on this why did you say, why not because you’re 100% correct and this is what I want lawyers to understand. Why did you say, why not?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Because we don’t know the answer. We don’t know that it’s not working.


Conrad Saam:  Exactly.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  But I also know that there are lawyers there, so I kind of cheated.


Conrad Saam:  No, but you know lawyers are there so like this all comes down to things that are basic business matrix that most of you guys aren’t thinking about.




So you get this matrix, we’ve got Instagram, Facebook display PBC. You’ve got different wide array of different creatives. You build the matrix and you find, which one A converts best and B put a cost behind that conversion. So you may find something that converts extremely well but is insanely expensive, right?


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Right.


Conrad Saam:  You may conversely, you may advertise on Instagram which is insanely cheap and it doesn’t convert very well but the cost per conversion is amazingly low. Now you’re talking about business matrix, right and that’s where we have to come from.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Yeah cost per is all day long and the thing that I don’t know it’s not really a secret but I think it’s an overlooked. Two things that are really overlooked. One is, and this is surprising but I think this is a kind of just a result of the transition to digital but the traditional notions of creative make so much of a difference. It’s all basic marketing psychology stuff, but now with the internet you can run these tests at high volume, high speed. You’ve got to have enough data there to actually get a statistically significant result but wow the creative makes a difference. I mean, it’s not just pulling bids and optimizing landing pages the creative and the messaging behind it really, really makes a big difference and the second thing and I think you alluded to this is how well, how much better integrated campaigns work. So you earn a click from Facebook and then you retarget and you turn that one click into or that you turn it into an email subscriber. And you turn that email subscriber into something else. That lows your cost per.


Conrad Saam:  And so I’m going to riff on this point and we’re going to wrap up with this advanced concept, right and Gyi just introduced you to this. It’s not a surprise, you guys all know this but modeling this becomes very difficult. The ability — let me back up. Most marketing mindsets, most of the reporting, most of the software out there to talk about how well your marketing is doing works on an attribution model. That pretty much you look like one of three things. First touch or last touch attribution or a more complicated model. Gyi can you tell us what first touch and last touch attribution are. And then we’re going to talk about why it’s a complete waste of time.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  So you’re just trying to decide who gets credit for the conversion. Do you get credit to the channel or campaign that was the first interaction with the eventual converter? Or do you say, no I’m giving it to the last. And then there’s a bunch of in-between ones as well. But yeah, I think there are some contexts that attribution does make a big difference but typically, especially if you’re talking about like direct to consumer, direct response. You’re literally add impression click conversion. Anyway, I don’t know, were trying – I don’t know if you’re trying to go mean into something more than that.


Conrad Saam:  No, no. I mean, what you just described is exactly what I was not goad. You’re the goader.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  You’re the genius.


Conrad Saam:  We’ve already established –


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Exogenous.


Conrad Saam:  You are the goad person. No, my point was exactly what you just went through. There’s different models, right. You can have the first touch model. You can have the last touch model. There’s a 40, 20, 40 model where the first touch gets 40% of the value of the conversion. The last gets 40. Everything in the middle split between 20. When you have – and especially in a longer purchase cycle, right so if during immigration. Family for example, where it’s not like,“Oh, I need the thing. I’m going to buy the thing right now.” And you have all these touches and you have marketing automation and you have a drip campaign and you have retargeting and you have billboards and you have pay-per-click. It’s very difficult — put it this way, it’s impossible to generate an accurate model because they’re models and so I have really evolved my thinking on this to thinking about within the system, you need the system to work really well. I need these individual channels but across the board you are looking at and across the board cost per that becomes important. And driving that down or maximizing that. Maximizing what you get out of that becomes the key. It’s hard, this is not linear straight. This is chestnut checkers. Three-dimensional chestnut checkers, right. For one of over using a very popular phrase right now but it’s hard and so and it’s wrong when you try and model it.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  So sadly, we are out of time for this episode which means that Conrad and I won’t be able to have our knockdown, drag out fight about asking the question, how did you find us?


Conrad Saam:  But I think we should still have a fight between now and our next episode

and what we set up in this episode is basically we’re going to try and market the podcast. We’re going to use a bunch of different tactics. I’m not going to tell Gyi what we’re doing. He’s not going to tell me what he’s doing. But we’re going to track all of this with the UTM codes that we were talking about earlier.




See if we can spend some money and who drives the most listeners for the lowest cost. We’re going to share all of that with you. The tactics that we used. How we tracked it, the results. And you guys can determine for yourselves who’s the best marketer.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  And with that thank you again, listeners. If you just dropped on this podcast episode and you have no idea what it’s all about, please do go learn about Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app and do leave us reviews and feedback we really want to know what you’re thinking. Thanks so

much until next time. This is Conrad and Gyi signing off for Lunch Hour Legal Marketing.




Outro:  Thank you for listening to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. If you’d like more information about about what you’ve heard today, please visit Subscribe via Apple Podcast and RSS. Follow Legal Talk Network on twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram and/or download the free app from LegalTalkNetwork in Google Play and iTunes. The views expressed by the participants of this program are their own and do not represent the views of nor are they endorsed by Legal Talk Network, its officers, directors, employees, agents, representatives, shareholders and subsidiaries. None of the content should be considered legal advice. As always, consult a lawyer.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  Am I doing that?


Conrad Saam:  Your closing. I still feel someone like the guest here.


Gyi Tsakalakis:  This is a great. I’ll take. All right here we go.



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Episode Details
Published: October 23, 2020
Podcast: Lunch Hour Legal Marketing
Category: Legal Entertainment , Legal Marketing
Lunch Hour Legal Marketing
Lunch Hour Legal Marketing

The podcast version of this free webinar featuring nationally known legal experts discussing a variety of marketing topics.

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