Healing the High-Achieving Lawyer: Rethinking Sobriety and Success, with Melissa Silverstein

Episode Notes

Transcript

Stephanie Everett:

Hi, I’m Stephanie.

Zack Glaser:

And I’m Zack. And this is episode 6 0 4 of the Lawyers Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, Stephanie talks with Melissa who does recovery coaching for professionals.

Stephanie Everett:

Zack, we just saw each other. We were in

Zack Glaser:

Nashville

Stephanie Everett:

At Vanderbilt Law School for the Second Women plus AI Summit.

Zack Glaser:

Yeah, yeah. Second year in a row. First year was amazing. Second year did not disappoint. It was pretty amazing as well. Personally, I’m just lucky to be invited to be allowed to go. Not allowed to go, but I’m just lucky to go.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s obviously a build as a women’s conference. Men are allowed and invited and there were a couple of you there.

Zack Glaser:

Yeah, you could count ’em on half a hand, but that’s the thing. It’s not the point to have a bunch of guys there. It is partially the point of the Women plus AI Conference to be all women. It’s more about, I think Cat Moon saw a, just saw a space where women aren’t, theoretically aren’t adopting AI at the rate that men are, are getting punished for adopting AI in their workplace, judged or even actually told that things that they’re not able to. And so yes, while it’s not a conference, it is a conference that is focused on women for good reason.

Stephanie Everett:

And the other piece you might’ve left out is I don’t think there is many women in the design process in the tech companies themselves, which creates problems. We need to be part of the conversation and make sure that everybody, I mean not just a women men’s split, but how do you make sure that people’s voices are a part of the technology design components? Because there’s biases and things happening behind the scenes that people don’t even realize. And I know we’ve talked about that with some of our guests on the show before. How do we know if, how do we know what this model is? What is it prioritizing,

Zack Glaser:

Right? What is it prioritizing? Because in some ways it’s just math, but I heard somebody say this week bias in even more bias out. And one of the things that I noticed at the conference is it seems at least anecdotally as one of our founders, Aaron tends to say anecdotally, I’ve seen that women in groups like this will tend to have more of an idea to protect against bias broadly, not just it’s more thoughtful about others broadly in general. And I think that obviously what I would think is that that comes from having a bias against women in general many times at times. Anyway. And so this conference had a tendency to bring in, okay, well let’s think about the bias here. Let’s think about that first or just second, but a lot.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. And I think one of the other takeaways for me, just a completely different space is you maybe thinking, I hear a lot about AI and it seems like everybody has this figured out, and I know we talk about it on the show a lot, at least sometimes I feel like we talk about it a lot and you may be wondering like, oh, why are they talking about AI again? And we still need to be talking about it. And if what of the conversations I had were people who were still just getting started with it, just starting to figure it out. And I think that it can be one of those things that you might feel intimidated, like I’m behind. I need to catch up. I don’t know enough. And I guess I’m here to say maybe you’re exactly where you should be, but take the next step and start engaging in those conversations and start learning, and it’s okay to learn.

And we have a group in our lab program now every Friday afternoon we’re connecting for an AI strategy lab and we’re like, just bring it all in your questions. There’s no bad questions people are sharing. They’re just curious. How are other people using it? What does this look like? People are like, I still don’t understand. I still don’t get it. And I’ve seen people wake up, if you will, or get excited just in a matter of a couple of weeks, come into our sessions being like, okay, I’m starting to see it. And once you see a possibility using it one way, I think it’s really easy to start connecting dot dots and saying, oh, I could use it over here and I could do this. And so the conference just reminded me that there’s lots of beginners out there and that’s a good thing. And so I just want to encourage everyone, don’t feel like overwhelmed or you’re behind.

Zack Glaser:

I think that’s a great point to get out of, for me specifically to get out of this conference is that there were a lot of brilliant, brilliant people at the conference, and among those brilliant people, there were a lot of varied levels of AI use, AI adoption, fear of ai, thoughts on ai. And so not using AI or using AI is not the thing that says that you are a smarter or lesser or better or anything. Just get in there and approach it

Stephanie Everett:

And thoughtful. I mean, part of what we talked about at this on Saturday was also where do you intentionally not use it? Where do you turn it off and what are you still using your hands for? I think that it was a good little mix of technology, but also not.

Zack Glaser:

Well, Stephanie, before we move on to your conversation with Melissa, what was your walkup song for you talking?

Stephanie Everett:

Oh, I gave them a couple, and so the one they went with was, it’s Your Life by Bon Jovi. That’s just a fun one. People were singing it.

Zack Glaser:

Yeah, they were

Stephanie Everett:

Got into, it felt like, okay. The other one was going to be Unwritten by Natasha, is it? Now I got to remember how to say her last name. I always think Benefield, but that’s not actually her last name. Do you know who I’m talking about?

Zack Glaser:

I don’t. I don’t. But I’m just,

Stephanie Everett:

The song is Unwritten and it was a little bit on the nose for my talk.

Zack Glaser:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Her whole, we’ll have a little bit more into what you talked to about in an upcoming article here in a little bit, because I think that was really great about kind of writing your own story. That’s fantastic. But I wanted to mention that there were walkup songs in this. I thought that was really cool for all the speakers. It was a very intentional conference. It was a wonderful conference.

Stephanie Everett:

And by the way, no pressure when somebody’s like, what’s your walkup song going to be? I was like, oh, man. I asked my husband, he’s like, I don’t know. Then I had to go, I put a lot of pressure on myself, and then I just finally flipped it to the DJ and I said, here’s a couple of options. Or if you have one better, I’m all for it because I gave up. Maybe we should ask people, go message us and tell us your walkup songs or what mine should have been. If they did want me to keep it a secret, I could have crowdsourced it ahead of time, but I think we could still make a fun playlist for this.

Zack Glaser:

Yeah, I would love to know people’s walkup songs for Yeah, we get some ready to speak or to talk in front of a bunch of people. Love it. Well, now here is Stephanie’s conversation with Melissa.

Melissa Silverstein:

All right, thank you, Stephanie. My name is Melissa Silverstein, so honored to be here. I’ve been an IP lawyer now for about 20 years. I’ve also been sober for about 13 years, and I recently decided to combine the two into a recovery coaching business that helped fellow lawyers and other professionals who are struggling with getting and staying sober. The recovery might not be different from other people, but I know that as professionals, a lot of times our titles, my ego, our accomplishments hold me back from Seeking Recovery. Well,

Stephanie Everett:

Congratulations and thank you for coming on and having this important conversation with us. I think you’re right. I feel like a lot of folks in our profession are suffering and maybe quietly, what’s your experience been with that? And maybe you could tell us a little bit about what brought you here.

Melissa Silverstein:

Sure. I know a lot of people in our profession as lawyers, we tend to want to minimize weakness or perceived weakness. We don’t like asking for help. We’re the ones that typically provide help to people. So in my experience personally, I went as long as I could on my achievements, on my title, on my accomplishments to say, there’s no way I could have a problem with alcohol by achieving all of these things. Look how great I am, or look how accomplished I am. And about 13 years ago, I just couldn’t rely on those achievements anymore. I couldn’t pretend that I didn’t have a drinking problem. So I know a lot of people want to look strong, powerful, that we have all the answers and it keeps us out of getting help.

Stephanie Everett:

I think a couple things, I mean obviously so much to unpack here, but I think a lot of folks, they might be struggling but also functioning, and so how do you come to terms with that and decide at what point does it make sense to maybe get some help because you think, well, sometimes we see it in the movies or we think, I’m not that I’m not that bad, so maybe I’m okay and maybe that line’s different for everyone, so it’s hard to say, but I think that’s probably one of the first things that we might struggle with.

Melissa Silverstein:

I think that’s so true. I thought it was functioning as well, and I know we have the professional responsibility and ethical obligations to do our best for our clients, and I thought I was holding it together. I thought nobody could tell. I thought that my drinking vodka during a business lunch wasn’t a problem. And you’re right, the line is different for everyone. There’s a saying in the 12 steps that we all have to hit bottom and that bottom can look different for everyone. For me, I realized I was not my best self. I was also struggling with mental health issues like depression and anxiety at the same time. So that combination, I don’t think I was serving my clients the best way I could have. I was so broken on the inside while still looking functional and holding it together on the outside. So yeah, I think the line is different for everyone.

I work with clients that are at every different level of that bottom, whether it’s, I’m just not my best self. I don’t like waking up with a hangover. I don’t like feeling like I have to go to client dinner and drink heavily to, I am not functional anymore at all. So I’ve seen the full range of clients. But yeah, it is definitely a personal decision of when alcohol no longer serves this, and a lot of my clients don’t like labels. They don’t feel the need to call themselves alcoholics, and that’s totally fine. I don’t think we need a label to get recovery in our life.

Stephanie Everett:

I was going to ask you about this because I know someone who’s close to me who has struggled, and a lot of people might be familiar with 12 steps or at least some of those concepts, again, through movies or shows or reading about it. And what a lot of people know is, oh, you have to stop completely. You’re never going to have a drink again if you do this. And for someone that was close to me, that thought of absolute certainty was really preventing them from taking a few steps. And so it wasn’t until we reframe things to say, well, maybe we’re not saying, never ever will you have a drink again, but maybe for this next step you need to stop. I’m kind of curious if that’s a right approach or if you’ve seen that because that idea of absolute, we don’t want it to prevent people from actually getting some help.

Melissa Silverstein:

Right. I completely agree with you. It doesn’t have to be complete abstinence, and I know that’s controversial. I did start in 12 steps. 12 steps are the foundation of my recovery, but I believe that recovery can look different for everyone, and what works for me may not work for someone else. So I definitely think harm reduction or reducing the amount of drink is just as beneficial as complete abstinence. When I was in my first AA meeting and realized that there’s no more drinks for the rest of my life, it was completely overwhelming to be honest. I learned that that meant just one day at a time. So I didn’t drink for one day and the next day I didn’t drink for that day, and those days have added up to 13 years, but for a lot of people, they do not want that or it does not work for them.

And so this all or nothing approach that I think keep a lot of people out of sobriety, out of recovery, and my approach is to fit it to the person. There’s a customized nature to my work. I don’t say, you have to do it this way or you’re out, which a lot of 12 step programs make people feel like that. And so I want people to have the comfort to know that what works for, say the lawyer right before then may not work for them. So everyone is welcome. In my coaching, there is no rule that it’s abstinence only, and so I want people to know that recovery can look different for everyone.

Stephanie Everett:

Are there any things that you tell people if you’re noticing these kind of things showing up, maybe it’s a sign that you should have a conversation.

Melissa Silverstein:

So the common thing that my clients bring to me is I just don’t feel my best. I feel like I’m dragging myself through client meetings. I feel like I want to ask for help from my firm or let them know what’s going on, but I feel like it’s a sign of weakness that I won’t get that promotion. I will not be assigned the big cases anymore. Something else that I’m noticing as a common theme with my clients is that my family is suffering. This profession we chose is very demanding on the family as is, but bringing alcohol into the equation I think makes it even worse. Something else that I’ve also noticed is that my clients say I don’t have time for myself. The limited time I have for myself is spent drinking rather than enjoying life or exercising or doing things that make me happy. My clients often struggle when I ask them the question, what makes you happy in life? And for us, having all the answers typically, that’s usually a long pause where it takes my clients a while when they first come in and say what makes them happy. There’s not a lot there. I know I struggled with answering that question when I first got sober.

Stephanie Everett:

If you see someone at your firm, you mentioned people are worried about being at a firm, maybe not getting a promotion, people finding out, I mean, we also have this theBar hanging over our heads, and I know that there’s still fear about do I have to report this to theBar and what are the ramifications? But I’m also curious if you’re concerned about someone at your firm or in the profession. Maybe you don’t work with them directly, but you’re noticing things. What’s your obligation there? I know this is a hard one because again, it probably feels different for everyone, but what do you say to someone who might be worried about somebody that they care about?

Melissa Silverstein:

So I have spoken to a lot of the state bar programs that offer help and support, and I know the feeling has generally been this is a punishment. They’re going to be watching me. I’m going to be monitored. Where I think the overall tone is shifting towards help, support and compassion. I also do corporate training. So I go into law firms and give people the language, whether it’s support staff, whether it’s partners, whether it’s team members who often notice our problem before we do, to at least have the courage to speak about it in a non-punitive manner, to know that there’s no shame or stigma in bringing it up. And to know that health is out there, and I think the tone is shifting. I don’t think we’re there yet, but when I do go into firms and start speaking about this, I see the lights kind of go on in people’s eyes like, oh, this has been such a secret essentially that we don’t have permission to talk about this. So by giving people the language, by speaking openly, I think it reduces the shame and stigma. So we’re not there yet. There is still a lot of hard work to do in corporate or in firm environments to know that it is okay to ask for help and to know how to ask for help or how to support team members who are in recovery.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. I’m curious if you notice any things leaders might be doing unintentionally that makes it harder for people to ask for help?

Melissa Silverstein:

Some clients have told me they struggle with group events or group dinners when they go to a conference, when it’s a dinner where everyone is served wine or expected to drink, and they have to go through the charade of explaining, they have to make up a bunch of stories. So even small things like not insisting everyone has wine or not putting a wine loss at everyone’s plate during a group dinner. One of the examples from my real life is when I was in a kind of a secret Santa Christmas type of event that was meant to be fun and light, I remember I ended up with a bottle of whiskey at the end and everyone was laughing and joking. So it’s small things like this that I think start the bear conversation.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, that’s such an important part. And we’ve been really intentional. Both of the conferences that I host and at our team events, you really start to, when you start paying attention, you notice how many of our events are centered around alcohol. And so we obviously announce from the stage that there might be times during the event where there’s alcohol available. It certainly isn’t expected. You should we tell everyone, please don’t ask someone why they’re not drinking. That’s so silly. But people do that like, oh, what’s wrong with you? Why aren’t you having a drink? Everybody’s allowed to not have a drink. And we make a point of having signature NA beverages and other options available that are still fun. And I noticed myself, I’ve started drinking a lot of beer at events, not just because I don’t want to drink, I don’t want to have a hang, I’ve got to be on the next day. I don’t want to feel terrible, but there is kind of this pressure or feeling like I need to have a drink in my hand, or I’m more comfortable with a drink in my hand. So I’m like, oh, I’ve noticed that myself. And so how do we have to be a little bit more intentional as leaders about how we plan events and how we structure, I guess, the space for everyone to be comfortable?

Melissa Silverstein:

That’s exactly right. And I remember working with one of my clients a few weeks ago who was telling me he was so relieved when this big client ended the relationship with the firm because every time he met with that client, it was going to be a vendor. That was the expectation with this client. So it’s I think not only the corporate or firm events, but it’s the expectations with clients as well. So he was thrilled. He would rather lose the business than go on another vendor. And I think having space available as firm leadership to come safely to them and say, look, I have this concern with this client. I value the relationship, but I can’t keep doing this for my own health and safety. So instead of the firm leadership not having a space for that or not welcoming that conversation, he would rather just lose the business. So I think we need to have the conversation at higher levels in the firm where anyone can come to a group or an individual or a committee and say, look, I have these concerns. I value the relationship, but I can’t keep doing this with this client and drinking.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, that’s a great reminder. It’s been so long since I’ve been in a situation like that that I kind of forgot that sometimes clients I know they want to drink, they’re like, well, this is my night out, or This is my chance to have the firm hook me up. And certainly that has been maybe an idea that’s perpetuated in the past, so that makes

Melissa Silverstein:

Sense. Yeah, and I loved your comment about the NA beverages. I think that’s been so important. And even people I know who still drink choose to have the na beverage, and it’s come a long way over the decade that I’ve been sober, those na beverages were not available, or not even a big thing when I stopped drinking. So now I feel even more included. And I was telling a friend that I went out with for dinner just to have the traditional glass in your head of whatever kind of beverage. There’s no alcohol, and it makes me feel a lot more included.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah, I totally relate to that. And yes, even I’ve been getting just more sparkling with a lime, but in a fun glass and you’re just like, yeah, I just don’t need it or want it. I guess it’s just like it’s been a slow shift for me. I mean, I certainly still have a drink every once in a while, and especially when I travel, I’ve really noticed that because I am in those business environments and that’s what everyone’s doing. But I love that there’s more options. Now, if somebody’s listening right now and maybe they’re seeing some of themselves in this conversation, maybe they’re starting to just have questions, have thoughts, what would you want to tell them and maybe what would you want them to know about the process that they might be scared about? Because it is a little unknown, right? I just said, we have these concepts or ideas about what might happen or how it works, but what would you want them to know about the process maybe to make it a little less scary?

Melissa Silverstein:

It is very scary. I was very scared to get help because I didn’t know how it would affect my career, and I thought it made me less of a lawyer. Honestly, that’s what I thought at the beginning. But the truth is, once I started truly committing to myself, to my sobriety and to being a more authentic person, my career flourished. It really did. People could tell the light came back in my eyes. I wasn’t dragging myself around. I had nothing to be ashamed of anymore, which the big thing. So it is very scary asking for help. I try to put out as much helpful content on my socials just to give people that support. If they’re not ready to speak to me in person, they’re not ready to ask for help. I try to just push the content out there to be that support for people.

I also want people to know that they don’t have to label themselves. I know in a world of titles and prestige that we’ve worked so hard for that label of even being sober or calling ourselves an alcoholic is just a non-starter. And I’m here to say, that’s okay. You don’t have to say you’re an alcoholic. You do not have to say, I’m getting sober. I kind of liken it to getting a gym membership. We care so much about our physical health. This is almost along those lines of caring for our emotional health, our health and safety, all of those things. So I’m always here as a resource, even if you’re not ready to ask for help or say you need help, feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach to me on my socials. I’m here to just be a resource for people as

Stephanie Everett:

Well. I love that. We’ll make sure to put all your social handles in the show notes so that if people want to follow you and read some of that content and get to know more, I am sure that would be super helpful just to answer some questions and demystify the process. And I really do love the idea of no labels. I have some friends who are now just say, I’m sober curious. And I was like, oh, I like that because, and again, it’s a day by day situation. I want to be curious about how I show up if I’m not drinking. And I feel like that’s starting to get a little bit more normalized in our conversations. I hope so, because I do think for way too long, we’ve used this substance maybe well in bad ways, right? As crutches as all the things we could label. So the idea that there can be a different path I think is really encouraging and something we just need to talk about. This isn’t the first time we’ve talked about it on this show. It won’t be the last because we want to revisit it every so often and remind people it’s still out there. It’s still a huge problem, especially in the legal industry, but it doesn’t have to be.

Melissa Silverstein:

I think Sober Curious is a great label. Before we’re talking about labeled it’s curiosity about this process of leaving an alcohol free life. And the title of my business is actually The Healed Professional. It was very intentional to not include the word sober or alcohol in the title, because healing as a professional can look many different ways. It adjusts to all of the different ways we can heal in our lives. So I love that this is a topic in your show. I hope more people continue to talk about this, especially in the legal profession and other types of professional spaces. Nothing to be ashamed of. It’s made me, I think, a much stronger person and much more resilient person about speaking openly of my recovery.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. Well, I want to applaud you because I do appreciate you being so open about your journey and more lawyers. We just need to, like you said, we need to talk about it, be willing to de-stigmatize it. Like it doesn’t need to be this awful, scary thing. It’s just part of life. And I also appreciate, and we didn’t really get into this, but that there were probably other things happening too. Depression and anxiety. They all get mass together, I think. And so it’s hard to, you have to start to unravel that. And I think that’s something too, if you’re listening right now, it isn’t about judgment. I mean, these are illnesses. Just like if I got the flu right, if I got the flu and went and got help, no one’s going to say, what are you doing, Stephanie? Why did you get help for that? So I just want everyone to hear that, that getting help, your body is just sick, right? This is just a thing that’s happening and you should go get help just like you would any other thing that is not preventing you from being your best self and healthy, and I’m sure. Melissa, what would you say to people who might be thinking that right now?

Melissa Silverstein:

I completely agree. I was unhealthy and sick in many ways, and getting sober, getting on the recovery path made me willing to address all of my issues. Not just the drinking, but what was behind the drinking, the depression, the anxiety issues from my childhood, all these things that we carry with us. It’s our baggage. There’s a way out of that, and there’s a way to not be afraid to address those things. And for me, that was getting sober, that was staying sober. And as I stayed on the sober path, I became more and more willing year after year to look at all of these issues. And I don’t think I have these gigantic issues looming over my head anymore. I’m very grateful for that. Of course, I’m human. I have the typical daily life issues, but because of my recovery, my willingness to face all my issues head on, they no longer haunt me.

Stephanie Everett:

I love that. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for the work you’re doing. Again, we’ll put all the information in the show notes because we want people to know this information’s out there. You can read about it, you can learn more about it and follow Melissa. And don’t forget, most bar associations have numbers. Have helplines. You can call. I know a lot of bar associations now. Give you so many sessions. Take advantage of those, even if you’re not sure, if you’re just wondering, I just want anyone who’s even just thinking about it, just reach out and have that first call, and you have a whole big community, even if you don’t feel it. We’re virtually sending you love and hugs right now. I just want to wrap everybody up and tell them we’re here for you and you can do this.

Melissa Silverstein:

Yes.

Stephanie Everett:

Thank you so much. This was wonderful.

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