The Athlete’s Mindset for Lawyers, with Jess Sargus

Episode Notes

Transcript

Stephanie Everett:

Hi, I’m Stephanie.

Zack Glaser:

And I’m Zack, and this is episode 596 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, I talk with Jess Sargus about really having an athlete’s mindset as you’re practicing law.

Stephanie Everett:

Yeah. Can’t wait to hear this one. So Zack, one of the things you’ve really launched and spearheaded around here is this AI … Calibration? What are you calling it?

Zack Glaser:

AI Calibration Weekly. It is a weekly-

Stephanie Everett:

That’s

Zack Glaser:

A mouthful. It is a mouthful, but I wanted it to be something that kind of said what it is, really. It is not supposed to be … So first thing, it’s a weekly discussion with some of our experts, our internal experts about practical artificial intelligence topics. It’s not supposed to be getting out there way ahead of everybody. We’re not talking about the newest, the latest and greatest artificial intelligence stuff. It is very practical, aimed at legal operations people. How can you bring this stuff into your office right now? You don’t want to stick your neck out too far and get popped, but at the same time, you don’t want to stick your head in the sand about artificial intelligence.This is the thing to watch. And so it’s actually over on our sister company or our owner company, our parent company’s new YouTube channel of affinity … What is it?

Zack Glaser:

Affinity Thought Hub. And so you can find that by just going to YouTube and Googling Affinity Thought Hub. You can also go to the Lawyerist YouTube page and you’ll see it as one of our connected YouTube pages. But every week we’re getting together with some of our experts and talking about artificial intelligence. So if you want to learn more, pop over there and subscribe.

Stephanie Everett:

And it’s cool. And it’s a little nerdy. I’m going to just say …

Zack Glaser:

It’s supposed to be a little bit more. I know.

Stephanie Everett:

I know. I say that on purpose. It would love in my heart.That’s a good thing. So if sometimes you’re like, wow, where’s the nerdy space where people aren’t talking about this stuff? Hey, here’s where you can go. Some of the episodes I think are a little bit more high level, but then you guys also kind of dig deep into some of these things and really in a loving, caring way, nerd out on it. And so definitely check it out. I think it’s fun and I’ve gotten to participate in a few of them and I like where you’re headed with it. So definitely if you’re interested in learning more and want to kind of dig in deeper to that next level, I’d recommend people check that out.

Zack Glaser:

Awesome. Well, if you want to dig into the athlete’s mindset in your law office though, stick around for this episode with me and Jess Sargus.

Jess Sargus:

Hi, I’m Jess Sargus and I help people be the best leader they’ve ever had.

Zack Glaser:

I love that as an intro, Jess. That is a fantastic little clip. Thank you for being with me. I appreciate your time here.

Jess Sargus:

My pleasure

Zack Glaser:

Let’s expand upon that though. Let’s expand upon help people be the best leader they can. Let’s get a little bit of your background talking about leadership. So you’re Ivy League, Penn. I love Penn. One of my favorite shotput throwing coaches is at Penn.

Jess Sargus:

Oh, wow. Okay. That’s niche right there.

Zack Glaser:

It is, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But hey, we’re talking about athletes and athlete mindset, right? Yeah. Yeah. Give me a little bit of your background here.

Jess Sargus:

Sure. So professionally trained as an attorney and I discovered boxing in law school. One of my friends was, he knew I liked to work out pretty vigorously and he invited me to come to a boxing class and my friend Shakarandall, I love him. He was a former University of Washington lineman. So he’s about 6’4″ at the time, probably about 400 pounds.

Zack Glaser:

And

Jess Sargus:

I’m like, “There’s no way I’m going to boxing with you.

Zack Glaser:

” No, we’re not getting in the ring together, buddy.

Jess Sargus:

That’s not happening. And he’s like, “No, no, no, no. We just hit heavy bags. I think you’ll like it. ” And lo and behold, I fell in love with the sport. Before then, the only real thing I knew about boxing was watching a Mike Tyson fight for five minutes. I didn’t understand the strategy of it or the science of the sweet science. And once I started learning that, I kept training and boxing, but I was on the career path to lawyer dim. So

Jess Sargus:

I didn’t at the time really ever think about competing. I knew that my pretty conservative law firm that I spent my 2L summer with and then worked for after law school, I knew they would not want me showing up with a black eye to one of their big pharma client meetings. So for many years, I just trained in the gym technically, didn’t really spard and get into competition. And then about 10 years into practice, I decided I no longer cared if anyone was upset that I showed up with a bruise here or there. So I signed up for my first competition. It was just an event that the gym was having where you did a fight camp for 12 weeks with other professionals. And then there was, if you were good enough, you could fight in the event. So my first boxing competition was that exhibition benefited in animal welfare society in Philly.

Jess Sargus:

And it was just so much fun. And through doing the actual competition, I met professional coaches, I met other fighters. And at the time, this is back in 2010, 2009, 2010, mixed martial arts was just starting to be a thing in the common Parlance. There’s the Ultimate Fighter Show. The first season was about then.

Jess Sargus:

And I was a rapped fan, but I didn’t know anyone who was actually doing it until I started training to compete in boxing. And then I started making new friends who were training for mixed martial arts. I had just been legalized in Pennsylvania. I was in Philadelphia at the time. So I started learning collegiate style wrestling and Muay Thai kickboxing and Brazilian jiu-jitsu to add to my boxing. And I loved boxing because it felt like a physical chess match. And I loved mixed martial arts because it was like going from regular chess to 3D chess where there’s multiple levels where you’re competing for position and for dominance. And so, very long story short, not really short, I fell in love with mixed martial arts. I started competing in mixed martial arts. I decided that my fighter friends who were dealing with Philly fight promoters could use some representation.

Jess Sargus:

So I was using my law degree. I started my own sports agency for professional fighters called the Brazen Sports Agency and started a training center for boxing and mixed martial arts also not only for competitive fighters, but for regular people who just wanted to learn real combat techniques and have fun being healthy and building confidence. So I did that for a number of years and started competing in mixed martial arts and decided to make a go of it. So sold my gym in Philly and moved to Las Vegas where I competed more full-time while working as an attorney for a small startup out there, but that’s where I had most of my competing training with UFC fighters. I was not a professional. I did make a UFC fighter cry and run off the mat, but I never competed as a pro. I did-

Zack Glaser:

That was in my role as an attorney. That was just me. That

Jess Sargus:

Was right. Well, I imagine serving people with papers would also make them cry right off the bat, but that was legitimately, it was an athletic thing.

Zack Glaser:

Wow.

Jess Sargus:

Very, very proud of that. So I competed in mixed martial arts, ended up earning an undefeated record, but by that time I’d started competing late. I was 38 years old and the things that used to bend and stretch started to snap and break more often. I had a training session with a training partner where we were just warming up doing some grappling techniques and I popped some cartilage in my rib. And I asked the sports medicine doctor, “What did you do? ” He’s like, “No, it’s like that now.” Like you’re

Zack Glaser:

Old.That’s your life. That’s

Jess Sargus:

Your life. So facing that and also having invested a lot into a law degree, I went back to legal practice. I retired from fighting competitively 10 years ago at 38 and then just continued to train. I was also coaching some pro fighters as well and both with my own gym and then while in Las Vegas, I started to really see the importance of mindset training for success in athletics, not only what I was doing, but what I was helping my teammates do and what I was helping the pros to do. And that just kind of kept percolating. When I was in college, I was a double major in political science and psychology. And what I focused on in psychology was neuroscience and social science and the psychology of leadership. I even took a really great course on the psychology of happiness.

Jess Sargus:

So those were all advocations for me. And after returning to practice, did that for about four years in Long Island doing mass torts litigation for plaintiffs, felt like I was getting to be on the right side of the V, but I missed building something. When I’d had my own business, the training center and the sports agency, I discovered that what I really loved was building and growing things, building something, using the combination of legal knowledge, legal thinking and entrepreneurial thinking. And so seeking to learn something new and go back to building something and ideally help put something into the social culture that called upon the better angels of our nature. I was lucky to get a job with Marvel Studios

Jess Sargus:

And I was doing some entertainment work for them on their films and television series and streaming in animation, really got a great education there. And then the pandemic hit, production was shut down, but what was not shut down was the creator economy. And there was a social media content tech company that was looking to make their first legal hire. So I was their first legal hire, helped them build all of their legal structures and templates and policies and did that for about four years. We grew it into a unicorn company, so billion plus valuation. I got to do high level negotiations with some of the biggest creators in the world like Mr. Beast negotiated his contract with us. So it was phenomenal. It was fun. I built a team across eight different time zones, 13 different lawyers and a paralegal who were working together to create something new that had never happened before.

Jess Sargus:

And I just continued to grow my belief in this athletic way of thinking and applying it to business problems and to legal problems and to your approach to life. So after I worked at that company, I wanted to move more into executive leadership.

Jess Sargus:

I was the global head of business affairs at Jellysmack, the global content company. So then I became chief legal officer for a plaintiff’s personnel jury injury firm here in Austin where I moved during the pandemic from LA. And over the course of my tenure there, I discovered that what I was really passionate about at this point in my life was helping other professionals, other high achievers, other people in high stakes roles to be their best, to close the gap between their potential and their actual performance, and to actually live fulfilling lives that are the lives that are aligned with what they think constitutes success, not what someone else is telling them are the trappings of success. So last year, a bit more than a year ago, September 2024, I left practice and started my own business doing speaking workshops and executive coaching as the legal athlete.

Zack Glaser:

Very cool. It seems at first glance like a disjointed path. But as I sit here and listen to it, there’s an obvious theme or strand or something there. And I think you’re kind of like putting your finger on it right now in your athlete mindset thing of let’s … There were so many things I wanted to unpack in here. There were so many things, but let’s go to this athlete mindset because in this story, we see high achieving, we see finding something and saying, “I can do that. I’d like to do that. I think I can do that. ” And then executing it. The part in here that I think grabs people’s attention just because it’s so … You know what I’m going to gravitate towards here is the MMA,

Zack Glaser:

Because to me, that is so far outside of what you probably were doing in your regular day-to-day and you say, “I like this, I’m going to go figure out how to do it. ” And I think a lot of our listeners can see some of that in themselves, but in my experience with athletes, with coaching athletes, with being around athletes my life for my whole life, is that there’s still that aspect of like, “Okay, I can be really good at this, or I can be great at this by having the proper framework in my brain.” Talk to me a little bit about that kind of, what would you call it, like that extra 20%, that top 20%?

Jess Sargus:

Yeah. The difference between world-class and truly elite, because you can, through effort, through doing what most competitive athletes do, you can get pretty good.

Jess Sargus:

The difference, and one of the performance psychology researchers that I really admire, Steve Magnus, he’s studied world-class athletes for almost 20 years. And in his studies, what he’s found is the key difference maker between just athletes competing at a world-class level and the ones who become the champions is action orientation. And that’s one of the five pillars of the athlete mindset that I use in my work that I’m using in my book called Fierce Agency. The combination of the five pillars are what I call in my system fierce agency, but key among them is this action orientation. And what that means is you’ve talked about it a little bit, like just giving things a try. Yes, that’s part of it. There’s other aspects, other pillars that feed into that, but really action orientation is being willing to take action with imperfect information or imperfect readiness because that’s the difference between the folks who become champions and who are still just competing at that level is they give themselves that permission to take action even when things aren’t perfect and give it a try.

Jess Sargus:

And it’s not always a great success, but they’ve gotten into the habit of doing that often enough to make great strides, to improve, to shave off tiny fractions of a section of a second by trying it, or to making strategic choices that pay off. And they’ve done that enough to expand their potential to be able to take action under high stakes pressures. And that’s really the key, I think, that takes you from pretty good, even excellent, to truly elite, truly best of the best.

Zack Glaser:

This really, really resonates with me because I wind up around a lot of athletes that are naturally very good at the sport. And you take to this sport that you’re naturally very good at and you’re a high achiever and you find these people in law school all the time. You’re a high achiever, you’re naturally a high achiever, and you cannot stand to fail. And in what you’re talking about here is inherently at least the ability to entertain the idea of failure.

Jess Sargus:

Yeah. You have to be comfortable with sucking at something

Jess Sargus:

In order to get great at it. You have to be comfortable with knowing you’re going to fail over and over because you’re trying something new, you’re learning a skill, you’re honing a skill. So that is one of the greatest assets, I think, of athletic training is that by its nature, you’re not very good to start. Even those people who are incredibly athletically talented, they have amazing propioception, they just understand their body and space. Even those people understand that not everything is going to be a winner. Michael Jordan threw up thousands of shots that didn’t go in the basket and he was comfortable with that because he knew that was the process of getting better, that it was the trying and the evaluating and taking failures as data rather than proof of a destiny like, “Oh, well then I’ll never be good because I missed that shot.” No, it’s data.

Jess Sargus:

So I think that’s the key in that athletic mindset is you get comfortable being uncomfortable not being perfect and that frees you to be truly excellent.

Zack Glaser:

How does somebody come to that though? Because again, we see people that are naturally talented at things and it is really easy to say, “You know what? This is good enough. I can put in 80% and kick most people in the world’s ass.” How do you go from that safe place to, no, if I’ll allow myself to fail a little, if I’ll allow myself the possibility, it’s not even that you will fail, it’s the possibility of failing. If I’ll allow myself that, I can kick everybody’s ass.

Jess Sargus:

I think there’s a combination of factors there. I think there’s a part that anyone can learn and improve, which is their growth mindset, that psychological concept that psychologist Carol Dweck coined about basically believing that through effort and education, you can improve at something. That’s that growth mindset rather than a fixed mindset, really believing your attributes, your trajectory are fixed and there’s nothing that you can do that will change that or improve that. With a growth mindset, you believe that your effort and your education really can make a difference. And I think that’s a big part of it. How you shift from being pretty darn good and being okay with that to, “I want to be the best.” There is a bit of innate competitiveness. I have a old school boxing coach from Philly, Billy Briscoe, and what he used to talk about this in his North Philly lingo was that fighter’s a little light on the left side.

Jess Sargus:

And what he meant is left side is your heart. He didn’t have that drive to be the best and the drive to the ego to want to be pretty good, but some people are just, they’re comfortable

Jess Sargus:

Being pretty good. It’s not a bad thing to be in the top 80%, and I’m not going to make a judgment about anyone who wants to be there. It’s all individually defined what you want to do with your life. But for people, and I tend to focus on high achievers who have this kind of innate drive to wanting to be, if not the best, to be their best,

Jess Sargus:

That’s what you need, I think, in order to put in the diligent and boring work that it takes in order to be the best. And also, ego killing work that it takes to be the best on that road to throw up enough shots that you fail over and over, but you still show up to keep throwing up the shots. I think having that innate desire to be your best is also what takes people from that top 80%, that top five to 1% of any competitor in whatever field, whether it’s athletics or law or business. I

Zack Glaser:

Like that reframing of you don’t have to be the best. It’s being your best because that’s one of the things that I run into as a high school cross country coach is that you get out there, you’ve got to race and it’s boys race one, girls race another. There’s hundreds of kids in each one of these races and there’s one kid that’s going to win in each one. So there’s two kids that win over the day. Hundreds of kids continue to show up. Why? Not because they’re going to be the best, but because they’re going to be their best. And I really like that reframing because I think the listeners can kind of bring that into their own mind. And it’s also best kind of under the circumstances in a way as well, best you right now. And yeah, I want to get into a little bit of … I don’t want to dig too far into your fierce agency book and people can also find you on your website, thelegalathlete.com, but I do want to talk a little bit more about the five pillars.

Zack Glaser:

If you could kind of introduce us to a little bit more of that, maybe kind of give people a teaser of that instead. Instead of going into, “Well, you don’t have to read the book.” No, go read the book.

Jess Sargus:

Yeah. Well, I hope it is a bit of a moose boosh for people to want to digest the entire rest of the book. And the core of it are the five pillars of fierce agency. There are other mindset strategies and habits that I’ll go into as well. But the core five pillars of the elite athletic mindset, what I call fierce agency, the first one like I’d mentioned before is growth mindset, is that you have to buy into the idea that your effort makes a difference, that your intentionality can make a difference in allowing you to be your best And Allowing you to craft your life in a way that is authentic to you. The greatest regret of the dying is that they wish that they’d taken more chances to live a life true to themselves rather than the life that they felt others expected of them. And so when you embrace your own agency, your own personal power to not just be the main character in your life, but to be the author of your life with intention and with action behind the intention, I think that’s how you become the best leader for yourself. You actually lead your life, you don’t just live it. And the first part of that pillar one is that growth mindset, believing that what you do can make a difference. Second pillar, we talked about it before is action orientation, being willing to give it a shot, give your best shot and to do it knowing that you may fail, getting comfortable, being uncomfortable in that zone of growth, that zone of effort.

Zack Glaser:

So I can do something. I can make the change and I will do something in

Jess Sargus:

Order to … I will start today. I will do something today. And it doesn’t need to be everything. It doesn’t need to be huge. It can be as small as one small check mark of, “Hey, I did this one thing today in the direction of my dreams.” The third pillar is present moment focus. You know this also really well as an athlete that you need to be able to be in that present moment to be effective. You can’t be thinking about what you just did. You can’t be thinking about what might happen in the future. Exactly. You need to know what is the one small thing I can do right now that is the best way to move forward? What am I doing right now? Where are the people on the field or where is my opponent in the ring? You need to be in that present moment because that’s the only place where we can actually make a difference in our lives,

Jess Sargus:

We can take action. Pillar four, that is a focus on process over outcome. And that’s again, a really key characteristic of an elite athlete is, I’ll put it in fighting terms again, the best fighters that I knew, they were in that gym every day to become the best fighter they could be, not to win a fight. When they were all about that outcome about, I want that belt, I want people to know I’m a champion, that’s not nearly as power … Full as I’m going to do everything I can to be the very best fighter I can be on that night. And that’s the victory, that focus on what do I need to do to be this rather than to get this? That

Zack Glaser:

Also has no limitations.

Jess Sargus:

There

Zack Glaser:

Aren’t.That goes well beyond what the goal is.

Jess Sargus:

Exactly. It’s knowing, I think, a kind of self-efficacy, which is akin to self-confidence, is knowing that you can handle something that comes your way. Maybe not perfectly, but there’s such confidence with preparation, with knowing that you’ve been there, you’ve done the work, that you’ve already won at that point. When a kid who’s been training all season for a cross country meet shows up there knowing that they put in that work every day, they already won. The outcome is just more data. You

Zack Glaser:

Just have to express yourself. Exactly. Just express what you’ve done. Yeah. Exactly.

Jess Sargus:

And there’s great joy in that. And for me, it’s the joy of the process, the joy that you get every day that’s cumulative, that is your life experience. It’s not just this single moment. It’s, did I have joy today? Did I move forward today? Do I feel like I made progress then I won today? Another, again, forgive a lot of fight references, but I feel like these are useful, although I’m at a point in my life where I realize I’m older than a lot of the people I’m speaking to and they might not have watched the original Rocky, but this is a Rocky reference.

Zack Glaser:

They better. Go watch it if you haven’t. Yeah.

Jess Sargus:

If you haven’t, it’s phenomenal as a film, not just a boxing movie.

Zack Glaser:

That’s true. Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Sargus:

But in Rocky, and again, spoiler alert, but it’s a 1970, what, six, 1977-

Zack Glaser:

Oh,

Jess Sargus:

Man. Yeah. I don’t know. Movie. So I’m not revealing great news. But the culmination of the original Rocky is his fight against Apollo Creed, this boxer who’s the best in the entire world. And Rocky is this journeyman just kind of coming up. He’s rough and tumble. He’s never had slick training. And there’s a point in the movie where he’s on a run, he comes home to his girlfriend and says, “I can’t win. He’s that much better than me. I can’t win. But here’s what it is. No one has lasted all 12 rounds or 15 rounds. I forget. No one has lasted every round to the end of the fight with Apollo Creed. And I think I can. I think I can. I think I can, and you might remember this, go the distance.”

Zack Glaser:

Yeah.

Jess Sargus:

So people sometimes forget that at the end of the original Rocky movie, he doesn’t win that fight.

Zack Glaser:

He loses. He doesn’t win that fight. Yeah. I probably shouldn’t say he loses because yeah, that’s what you’re kind of getting at.

Jess Sargus:

But he went the distance. And at the end of that fight, he’s not shouting, “I lost…” Oh, no. He’s shouting, “Yo, Adrian, I did it. ” He was In there every day working for that process. He won because he set that goal for himself and he put in the work to get there and he did it. He did it. He went the distance. And that’s what that process focuses, that pillar for is being there for the journey and enjoying that journey. And with that comes a kind of fulfillment and satisfaction that the top place on a podium or a championship belt, which is fleeting, really, really can’t give so much as that process. And then the final pillar is mission alignment. Abraham the Maslow has this hierarchy of needs. You might be familiar with it. And the top of it originally was self-actualization, becoming the person that you’re meant to be. That was the top of his pyramid hierarchy of needs. But about a year before he died, Dr. Maslow actually updated his hierarchy of needs.

Jess Sargus:

And he’s like, “You know what? The top of it isn’t self-actualization anymore.” It’s self-transcendence. It’s being able to work towards something bigger than yourself that is your mission in life, your purpose in life. Purpose is actually the peak of our hierarchy of needs. And so for the athletic mindset, having that mission alignment, what are your missions in life? What are your core values? What Principles do you want to live on a daily basis? And when you have that kind of clarity, that kind of focus, that north star to guide your actions on a daily basis, your process, that’s when you’re on a journey that feels as great as the outcomes you’re able to achieve. So that’s the fifth and final pillar is that mission alignment, that purpose alignment.

Zack Glaser:

I love this. And they fit together so well.

Zack Glaser:

And then they all also, when you put it together, it takes care of some of the major … I don’t even want to call them sports questions, but major sports questions that you have. And I always go to this, and I use this as such an example, and it’s a dumb example, but there’s a Simpsons episode where Homer Simpson’s softball team is playing against Ned Flander’s softball team and Ned Flander’s team is praying to win. And Homer yells across, he says, “Ned, it’s no use. We’re praying too and we can’t both win.” And I think about that in so many situations because we’re not always in zero sum games or we’re in those zero sum games a lot of times. We’re not always in games where everybody can win. But if you were doing this, if you’re focusing on the process, if you have mission alignment, if you have an appropriate purpose, if you’re in the present moment and enjoying that process and doing the thing where you think you can actually change yourself, well, then we all can win.

Jess Sargus:

Yes.

Zack Glaser:

We can all win.

Jess Sargus:

We can all win. And the thing that I love about it, and I call it the athletic mindset, but you don’t have to be an athlete in a sport. You can be applying these principles no matter what it is that you’re doing professionally or personally. You can be an entrepreneur, you can be an artist, you can be anything and apply these athletic mindset principles without knowing how to throw a free throw or throw a punch. You can apply it no matter who you are. Nike, which has a lot of parallels, I think with the athletic mindset, they’re just do it. That’s action orientation, right?

Zack Glaser:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jess Sargus:

They say if you have a body, you’re an athlete. And I get that. I believe it, but I’d go a step farther. I’d say, “If you have a mind, you’re an athlete.” That’s why I call my company a legal athlete. But it was inspired by my friend psychologist, Jack Grofbel, who’s a world-class tennis coach. He had a book called The Corporate Athlete. But anyone who applies these mindset principles, then you’ve become a mental athlete. You are thinking in the most high performance way that you can, not in a sense that it’s your product that you’re working towards, but you are your experience. You are the product and you’re that product every day, not just through your achievements. So that’s why I really love that anyone can be this kind of athlete, an athlete through their mental practices. And you don’t have to be coordinated at all.

Jess Sargus:

You don’t have to understand a sport to have the sports mindset.

Zack Glaser:

Oh, so some of my best athletes run a 5k in 50 minutes, but they get out there and they do it and they think that they do change and they drop nine minutes off of their 5K time and- Amazing.

Jess Sargus:

Yeah.

Zack Glaser:

It is absolutely amazing, but it is these things as well. You’re right because they have the goal and they have the mindset and they’re absolutely not looking for the win. I love that. Well, Jess, I think that’s about all the time that we’ve got for today. I really appreciate you sharing all your experiences. If our listeners want to find you, if they want to learn more from you, where can they find you?

Jess Sargus:

The two best places to find me, number one is LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn, Juss Sargus, S-A-R-G-U-S. I’m on it all the time and you can DM me there if you’re curious. I also publish a lot on LinkedIn. And then the other place is my website, thelegalathlete.com. There’s information there about my speaking workshops, coaching, and also my upcoming book, The Fierce Agency be the best leader you’ve ever had. So those are the two best places. I have an Instagram account. I’m just going to be frank with you. I don’t have time to be multi-platform. So it’s me.

Zack Glaser:

Go LinkedIn. Go to LinkedIn.

Jess Sargus:

Yeah. It’s LinkedIn. It’s LinkedIn and my website. You can email me also, [email protected] and it will be me, not an AI agent.

Zack Glaser:

Wonderful. Love that. Love that.

Jess Sargus:

Yeah.

Zack Glaser:

Well, Jess, once again, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your experience and your thoughts and expertise. I appreciate it.

Jess Sargus:

Thank you so much for having me for a great conversation. I could talk to you all day, Zach. Thanks

Zack Glaser:

So much. Same here. Same here. Thank you.

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