On the last episode of our The Life of a Lawyer Start to Finish series, we discussed work-life balance with Molly Ranns. In this episode, we move on to the next rung of the ladder: Hobbies & Travel.
Host Craig Williams is joined by Steven Lefkoff, a business litigation and general practice attorney and host of the popular podcast, Lawyers with Lives. Craig and Steven dig deeper into hobbies and traveling, and how these activities can materially improve your practice, client relationships, and peace of mind.
Special thanks to our
Steven Lefkoff: When you prioritize yourself and the importance of being happy, you find time for a hobby. It could be reading. It could be going for a walk, right? Everybody has a few minutes. Not all hobbies take 18 holes, not all hobbies take four hours. But prioritizing that time for yourself is critically, critically important.
Intro: Welcome to the award-winning podcast, Lawyer 2 Lawyer, with J. Craig Williams, bringing you the latest legal news and observations with the leading experts in the legal profession. You’re listening to Legal Talk Network.
J. Craig Williams: Welcome to Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk Network, I’m Craig Williams coming to you from Southern California. I write a blog named May It Please the Court and I have two books out titled ‘How to Get Sued’ and ‘The Sled’. In our ongoing series in The Life of a Lawyer, Start to Finish, we’ve been exploring the experience of becoming and an attorney from applying to law schools through retirement and everything in between. On our last episode in this series, we discussed the work-life balance with Molly. Ranns. On today’s episode, we’re going to dig a lot deeper into hobbies and traveling and how these activities can materially improve your practice, your client relationships, your peace of mind, and even your business.
And to do that today, our guest is Steven Lefkoff. He is a business litigation and general practice attorney and the owner of Lefkoff Law, a boutique law firm located in Sandy Springs, Georgia, just a few miles north of Atlanta. Steven is the host of the popular podcast, Lawyers with Lives, where he talks more in depth with practicing lawyers around the country about their hobbies, interests, and side jobs. Steven’s hobbies include barbecue, traveling, saving money by using online coupons, comparison shopping, and maximizing cash back and credit card rewards, as well as attempting to fix things around his house. Welcome to the show Steven.
Steven Lefkoff: Craig, thanks so much. It’s really a pleasure to be here. I I’ll tell you, it’s cool to be on a podcast that started when I was in college, not to date myself, but Lawyer 2 Lawyer has been around a long time.
J. Craig Williams: It has and here on Lawyer 2 Lawyer we’ve been doing the Life of a Lawyer, Start to Finish series for the year and kind of like yours Lawyers with Lives outside of the law. So, how did you get into podcasting? What was your motivation?
Steven Lefkoff: You know it’s funny, it really was because it was out of curiosity, will say it that way. I know a lot of lawyers; we all know lots and lots of lawyers and the job of being a lawyer is not easy. It doesn’t matter really what type of law you practice, whether you own a firm or you’re an associate at a firm or you’re in big business where your in-house counsel, it’s not an easy job. And I was having dinner with a group of lawyers and we were talking about some activities that a couple of them were doing outside of their practice and it dawned on me that we all have fun hobbies and interests or a lot of us do and I was curious what other lawyers did besides being a lawyer. And that’s really where the podcast started.
J. Craig Williams: Well, you mentioned that Lawyer 2 Lawyer has been around since you’ve been in college, I hate to ask how long ago that was.
Steven Lefkoff: I graduated from the University of Illinois in 2007.
J. Craig Williams: Okay. Yeah, we started in 2005. So wow, that is a while ago. Well, you’ve had a lot of different guests on your show. One podcast that I listened to was that you were talking about using your hobbies for business development with Todd Stanton. That seems like a very productive way to have a hobby.
Steven Lefkoff: It really is. It was a cool episode because Todd who’s an employment lawyer here in Atlanta, he plays a lot of golf and he uses his club membership to generate business by inviting people out to play golf. Now, we know a lot of folks that do that and then specifically when it comes to golf, but what he talked about was thinking beyond your own personal happiness with your hobby and instead using that in sort of a hybrid fashion to drum up business. And that doesn’t have to be with golf. I mean, that was his example but there’s no reason why if you like to paint, you can’t have people come with you to a painting class or pottery or other sports or going to sporting events.
I know one of the episodes with Jonathan Barber, he talked about brewing beer and I was like, “That’s pretty cool.” And you could totally get some folks around and teach them how to do it and they may or may not ever do it. But he could use that to his advantage as well. So the thought of “Yeah, I like to do something.” But hey, maybe there are other people that I know that would also like to do this or at least share in the experience with me can help create that memory and that’s really at least for Todd and for a lot of folks that’s where networking is successful. It’s not just that, “Hey, we met at a restaurant and we talked for an hour over lunch.” But it was what did we talk about or What did we do that was memorable in such a way that next time I do that thing or next time I need a lawyer, I might remember, “Hey, that’s right. I played golf with that employment attorney. Let me look up who that guy was and what his name was so that I can refer the business to him or so that I could use him if I need him.”
J. Craig Williams: It seems like a double benefit there. You get a little bit of relaxation yourself as well as you get the opportunity to get out and potential find some clients. It’s all based on relationships anyway, I think. Lawyers get clients based on who they know and how they’ve met them.
Steven Lefkoff: It’s 100% true, and it’s even more true in the area of practice where I am. So I’m a business litigator and a business attorney. I provide general counsel to businesses all over the state of Georgia. And for that I tell people all the time, “I’m not working for today’s case, I’m working for tomorrow’s case, and I’m working for a lifetime relationship with the client.” And even if you’re practicing say PI attorney where you’re expecting, maybe to only get one case from that client, you’re certainly hoping they don’t get into another car wreck or another medical issue or what have you, that client may then refer you to other people, right? And so the relationship whether it’s with another attorney giving you referrals or if it’s with your own clients, the relationship to me is 100% the most important thing in growing your business, in bringing in new clients, in being known, right? That’s part of what we’re looking for is how do folks know to send cases our way and that relationship is the way.
J. Craig Williams: All right. Let’s talk about something other than business here. As you graduated from law school, you dived into a law firm and your time is absorbed by the law firm, it’s absorbed by your family if you have one. You’re starting out, you’ve got all kinds of responsibilities. How do you go about finding a hobby?
Steven Lefkoff: Well, so for me, it wasn’t personally that difficult because I live a life of smile is what I tell people all the time. My priority is smiling. I think it’s for a lot of folks we get consumed in our day-to-day in such a way that we forget to smile, and I like to work with people who smile, I like to talk to people who smile, I like to be around people who smile, and I like to smile. And when you prioritize yourself and the importance of being happy, you find time for a hobby. It could be reading. It could be going for a walk, right? Everybody has a few minutes. Not all hobbies take 18 holes, not all hobbies take four hours. But prioritizing that time for yourself is critically, critically important.
J. Craig Williams: So what are your hobbies? I mean we talked a little bit about some of the things you do. But what do you have in your back pocket?
Steven Lefkoff: Oh men, you’re flipping my podcast on me. I love this. Craig. So, for me barbecue is one of my very favorite things to do and I don’t mean hamburgers and hotdogs. I’m smoking briskets, I’m smoking ribs. chicken. I make kosher keeping a Jewish member of Atlanta society and so I don’t eat the pork but it looks delicious and it smells delicious. But for me barbecue is probably number one as far as my hobbies are concerned. I also do play golf. I love riding on my peloton bike. I interviewed Gary Knopf on my podcast about his peloton and the community and how much he loves it. But I really do enjoy getting on there and just sweating. That’s fun for me. I’m a bourbon collector which can be fun and expensive all at the same time. But these are just things that I’ve started dabbling in and like the attorneys that I’ve interviewed. on my podcast, once you start dabbling in these things, you become very quickly pseudo experts as type a lawyers that some of us might be.
J. Craig Williams: Right. Yeah, it was going to be kind of my next question. Do you find that the lawyers that you talk to and like yourself when you dive into a hobby, you dive hard.
Steven Lefkoff: Oh my gosh. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I don’t know how to be more emphatic about that. It’s probably the best part of these interviews is that the lawyers I know when they get into hobbies, they really, really get into them. So whether you have friends that are attorneys that are into scrapbooking or into disc golf, or whatever it is that they might be into, I tend to see that lawyers really get into it. And maybe that’s a function of personality. Maybe it’s a function of the job itself. We are so trained to turn over every stone and to really thoroughly perform our research and to review and revise and review and revise and review and revise so much in our career and in our jobs that we translate that a little bit to our own hobbies where we are not just hammering one piece of wood to another piece, we are building full decks.
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Steven, we’re going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors and I’ve got some questions for you. We’ll be right back. And welcome back to Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk Network. I’m joined by Attorney Steven Lefkoff. He’s owner of Lefkoff Law and the host of the podcast series Lawyers with Lives which were kind of duplicating here in just one tiny little episode. So tune in to his podcast. You know right before the break you were talking about how lawyers dive into their hobbies and get immersed, is that a good thing?
Steven Lefkoff: Yes, I think so. I mean I think any diversion you can take from this seriousness of practicing law is a good diversion. Whether that’s being with your family, whether it’s cutting grass, whatever that may be, I find that really diving in and separating your mind from your practice, separating your day-to-day from your hobby. When you’re in the hobby, you’re not thinking about your email, you’re not thinking about that order from a judge that you disagreed with that you got yesterday. You’re not thinking about a deadline to respond to discovery or some provision in a contract. You’re focusing on sanding wood or you’re focusing on going for a run or treasure hunting or whatever it is that you’re doing that actually like I said before brings a smile to your face. And so to me I really believe, if you’re going to get into it you really should get into it, but that is a personality trait I think. I don’t have the science behind it but we all know people that when they get into things, they really get into things and then we know people that dabble, play drums for a month and a half and then never pick them up again.
J. Craig Williams: Yeah, I would imagine that that’s a little bit difficulty. You try to find a hobby and then you get into something that was expensive like skiing or scuba diving and then, you know you, “Aaah, I won’t try this.” But you just spent a chunk of money so you’re a little bit married to it.
Steven Lefkoff: Your listeners know who I’m talking to, but lawyers love to spend money. Go to any conference, lawyer conference, go to any lawyer function, go to any event and you’ll find the lawyers that want to buy the biggest steak, want to buy the most expensive bottle of wine at the dinner, want to show up in the fanciest car. I don’t know what that is. I don’t know why that is but it’s very much a lawyer trait and you’re 100% right Craig, there are plenty of those that will try a hobby and the first week they will own all of the things and then never pick them up again.
J. Craig Williams: Yeah, and then you end up giving it away to somebody who’s actually going to do the hobby and they get to enjoy it. So that’s a good thing. Hey, here’s a distinction that I’m curious about. You mentioned in your last answer you were talking about woodworking and running, it really kind of draws into the question. Woodworking, you produce a final product. Running, at the end of the run you have nothing. Do you find that lawyers gravitate more toward the things that produce a result at the end, a thing, like we don’t really produce anything other than pieces of paper and send them off to court or to the client. Are lawyers more geared toward producing something physical or just getting the exercise out, what you thought about that?
Steven Lefkoff: It’s a great question, Craig. I think lawyers are focused on the result, on the accomplishment. And that doesn’t matter what it is they’re doing, it’s did they accomplish whatever that goal is. I’ll give you an example. So I have an episode in my podcast where I interviewed a great personal injury attorney in Atlanta, his name’s Josh Stein and he talked about a training for this midnight running event in, I think it was Iceland where the sun doesn’t set. And so they do a 5K.
J. Craig Williams: A 5k. I remember that. Yeah.
Steven Lefkoff: That’s it. Yes. So they have this 5K in Iceland and you get to go at midnight and then you have drinks afterwards at like three am or I don’t know the times and how it all works. But for him the training, the accomplishment was the run and doing the 5K, and there are others that don’t go to those kinds of crazy events and just go outside and go run, but it’s that feeling, the high afterwards that they get from the run is the same as the lawyer that makes the bench out of wood and completes the bench. It’s that same feeling of success, feeling of accomplishment that I think comes from whether it’s a workout or it’s a product. And frankly it’s no different than being a lawyer, right? We don’t have a product to provide somebody necessarily it’s a service, right? I’m a business litigator, so when I go to court, I don’t end up with something I can give my clients other than maybe a judgment, which I guess is a thing. It’s pretty good thing sometimes, but I don’t have an item, but it’s that accomplishment, it’s that feeling of success. It’s that “I did it” feeling that. I do think resonates very much with all these competitive attorneys.
J. Craig Williams: Yeah, it sure does. Well, during the pandemic and we’re still in it, a lot of travel was prohibited and lawyers tend to be travelers. What’s been your experience with hobbies that had to take a side seat to the pandemic and really couldn’t do it? Are people traveling more now?
Steven Lefkoff: So it’s a really good question. I’ll tell you. I don’t know if they’re traveling more, but I do know that my small sample size of my network seems to be that they’re traveling more extravagantly. We are going to talk about the biggest steak or the biggest bottle of wine. I mean for two years, all these folks hopefully making pretty good money in a profession where you really can earn a good living didn’t spend it. They were at home. They were with their families. They were not going anywhere. And a lot of folks are I guess playing catch-up. I don’t know if that’s the right or wrong thing to do. That’s not my business to tell anybody, but I do see that coming across my feeds and in my circles.
J. Craig Williams: Yeah, it’s has been the same for me. I travel with the Orange County Bar Association and the we travel and have MCLE classes in far-flung places so we can take a little bit of tax benefit from that, but there’s been a lot more of it from what I’ve seen.
Steven Lefkoff: Absolutely, absolutely. I saw a recently, I think it was this State Bar of Alabama. They put on a CLE event in Hawaii and it came, I think it stemmed from a football game that was going on there. I don’t know all the details, but I paused for a second. I was like, “Huh? That’s an interesting CLE. I guess, I’ll travel from wherever Alabama to wherever Hawaii so I can get my six hours or 12 hours in it. It seems like a good use of my time.” But that does seem to be more and more the case. And I think there’s a healthy fear to that folks don’t know when or if that could happen again. And so there’s a little bit of just if I’m going to do something, let’s just do it. And let’s not think about, “Oh, this the right time?” or “Is this the wrong time?” or “What’s going to happen?” Or “Can we get a babysitter long enough?” or whatever. A lot of people are just deciding that life is short, right? We all saw it. We saw it to people we love. We saw it to people in the news. We saw that you just don’t know, not to be morbid, but you don’t know what’s going to happen. And so, if you’re going to pick up a hobby, if you’re going to go travel, if you’re going to do something, do it.
J. Craig Williams: Yeah. How has that affected lawyers with hobbies and doing different things? The pandemic kind of sat us all down for a while and made us think. Are you finding this whole business about not wanting to go back to work or quiet quitting or whatever they’re going to call it these days, has that motivated lawyers to pick up, get more balance in their life?
Steven Lefkoff: I hope so. I don’t know, but I truly hope so. I’ll tell you, my firm was hiring an associate attorney in the last couple of months and the vast majority of applications we got were seeking remote only work.
And that works for some people that doesn’t work for others and when I say some people I mean employers, but I do think a lot of employees, a lot of which are all of us at some point or another are looking for that sort of option. The ability to work from home, the ability to go on vacation, the ability to participate in your hobby and not have your employer reject it or prohibit you from doing it or keeping your hours so extreme that you can’t breathe. I mean, my generation is very much looking for that more so than big pay, more so than the accomplishment of making partner, more so than a lot of these other historical accomplishments people in their 20s and their 30s. New attorneys are looking for free time. They’re looking for time where they can spend on their hobbies, where they can spend on their families, where they can do the things that they don’t know when else they would get it done.
I’ll tell you this. So, early pandemic when everyone was truly locked down even here in Atlanta in the South where we were locked down for that first month and a half or so, me, my wife and my two little kids went for walks every day and we slept in, we watched movies, we had a blast together. And I was talking with another attorney who this was about a month in who said he was miserable. And I said, why are you miserable? And he said because I have to be at home with my family every day. And I was taken aback by that because it was sad. It was like a sad thing to hear that how many people in the prime of their earning career have the opportunity, not just the opportunity, the requirement to spend every day with their growing children and their spouse? Very, very few historically, right? We were in a unique time, maybe ever where that was required. And it was sad to hear that an attorney was so focused on work and was so for so many years had spent so many hours at the office that he didn’t know what to do or how to handle being home.
And I hope that doesn’t happen to too many people. I hope that was unique, but we had a very long conversation about it and I hope I believe at least he told me later that it really changed his perspective on hobbies, on his family, and on his free time. It’s a grueling profession, it really is. And if we don’t take the time to pause and think about life outside of the profession, then you really do get wrapped up into it and it can be a problem.
J. Craig Williams: I want to follow up more with you about that question, but we’re going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors. We’ll be right back.
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J. Craig Williams: And welcome back to the Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk network. I’m joined by Attorney Steven Lefkoff. Right before the break we were talking about how an attorney who’s immersed in job suddenly got hit with the pandemic and really didn’t enjoy being with his family. So can you sum up your advice for that lawyer?
Steven Lefkoff: Yeah, it’s not easy. I mean, like I said it was a very long conversation, but I think I don’t know if meditation is the right word but taking a step back and thinking about life and that’s like a heavy topic and there’s a lot to think about and people write books and books and books, and there’s expert psychologists that talk about this stuff. But for each person to just stop and appreciate what they have I think is the most important thing. And that leads to hobbies, and that leads to being with your family and that leads to being happy and smiling and all of these things. But so often we especially in our community and especially in our profession don’t just stop and say, “Wow, look what I’ve got.”
And it’s not a comparison to other people. It’s not a “But that other person down the street has more” or “That other person down the street has less.” This is not the game we’re playing, it’s the internalizing of what have I accomplished? What is around me? What’s important to me? And for some people truly that is work. There are folks that that’s just the answer is I love my work more than I like anything else on the planet Earth. That’s not me. It’s not the majority of people I know, but you take a step back and really think about what do I love in life and look around and perceive and be perceptive of what it is around you that you personally have accomplished. And I think if you do that, you start to really appreciate those things and then you value and valuing is what’s most important.
J. Craig Williams: I would say that’s so true. Perfect answer. Well, when you get into a hobby, how many of them on your podcaster and your friends have turned it into a side gig? I mean, all the side hustle these days is the big thing.
Steven Lefkoff: Yeah, it’s funny. So a couple of them have right off the bat, I can think of Justin Spizman was a good one. He’s a criminal defense attorney who started I guess his 1L year he wrote a book and for the life of me I’m not going to remember what it’s called but it may be 1L or Surviving your 1L Year. It’s about surviving your first year of law school and it became a best-seller amongst I guess probably law students and their parents buying it for their kids. And he turned that into a side job which I don’t know if it’s his side job or now his primary job. But I think it’s still a side job of being a ghost writer. And a lot of other folks on my show have talked about how what started as a little project turned into a much bigger, almost gig.
Jonathan Barber who I mentioned Bruce Beer. I think he made a beer for his for his wedding and he private-labeled it, he bottled it himself and now his friends when he goes to events, they want him to bring his beer. And he has all these big contraptions and all this stuff that I don’t truly understand. I just drink it. I don’t make it but he’s figured out how to do all that. So you never know what’s going to happen when you get into these, these hobbies and the interest and the beauty of it is that what turns into some little fun thing for yourself, start to really benefit the people around you, right? When you’re making beer for folks, when your ghostwriting books, you end up benefiting more than just yourself in your own hobby and that for a lot of people is very fulfilling.
J. Craig Williams: Good. It would almost be funny if the lawyer ended up being a full-time brewer and a lawyer on the side.
Steven Lefkoff: Or even not the lawyer on the side, right? Like I’m waiting for — I know here in Atlanta at least the King of Pops which if you have listeners who Atlanta they’ll know who that is and maybe even in the Southeast. So King of Pops, it’s a crazy story. The owner of the business I believe was an accountant at one of the big four accounting firms went down to South America, had some popsicles with his brother who was may have been a lawyer and they both looked at each other and were like, “Why aren’t these popsicles where we are, back home in Atlanta.” And so they came back, they both quit their jobs and have now made if not nationally, certainly a regionally recognized popsicle business where their popsicles are sold all over in grocery stores and in stores all throughout the southeast and it all started because they just decided they wanted to make popsicles.
J. Craig Williams: Maybe we’ll see them on Shark Tank soon.
Steven Lefkoff: Yeah, you never know. I mean what stems, and I eat this popsicle. I’m like, “Goodness, I just paid four dollars for a popsicle. You got to be kidding me.” But it’s delicious.
J. Craig Williams: They’re not out here in the west where I live. I haven’t seen him yet but I’ll be on the lookout for him now.
Steven Lefkoff: There you go.
J. Craig Williams: That question though kind of leads me into the last question. I really have here is we’ve talked about the young associate. We’ve talked about the attorneys in the mid-life who’s buried his or her face into work and trying to struggle out of it. And I know you’re a little bit younger than me, but what would you tell older lawyers who have just dedicated their life to the practice and in my day, we used to joke and say, “You know, you’re using your secretary to print out your emails and still dictating your emails.” What do you tell those lawyers that have been a lawyer their whole lives and really don’t know how to get out into a hobby?
Steven Lefkoff: So you said it yourself, Craig when you said they’ve dedicated their lives, right? They were your words just now and to me that makes me cringe because it’s true they have and we all know so many lawyers I know them, everybody knows them that are maybe listeners that are in their 70s or early 80s and they’re still every day, five, six, even seven days a week practicing law.
And the advice I’d give those lawyers is to just slow down. Slow down. We are all working hard. We are all working fast. We are all trying to put out the fires or handle our client’s business, but it is okay to take a break and focus on yourself. There’s a reason why in the airplane recording that we’ve all heard they tell you to put a mask on yourself before you help others. And I think of that every single time. My wife hates that I say it because I say it’s so much. I used selfishly but it’s true. You got to put your own mask on before you put on someone else’s mask. And if you take time and you slow down and think about that and what that really means, you’ll find your own peace, you’ll find your own hobby and you’ll find your own interests.
J. Craig Williams: That’s a great piece of advice. Well, Steven, with that I’d like to offer you the opportunity to sum up and give your contact information so our listeners can reach out to you and get some more education from Lawyers with Lives, your podcast.
Steven Lefkoff: Thanks Craig. Yes, so Steven Lefkoff, I am the host of the Lawyers with Lives Podcast. We interview lawyers around the country about their hobbies and interests. If you’re interested in participating on the podcast, please don’t hesitate to send me an email or if you have any questions about this episode or just want to chat, I’m always available. It’s I’ll give you my personal email address, it’s Steven [email protected]. L-E-F-K-O-F-F-L-A-W.com.
J. Craig Williams: Well, great Steven. It has been a pleasure having you on the show today. Thanks very much.
Steven Lefkoff: Thank you Craig.
J. Craig Williams: Steven’s podcast is a really interesting podcast to listen to and I would commend it to any lawyer that’s struggling with trying to figure out how to get a hobby going. It’s been an interesting thing to listen to for me because I learned about making legos, about ghostwriting and a whole host of other activities that you can do as a lawyer, if you struggling to try and figure out what to do. But as Steven says, it’s tremendously important to find something outside of the practice of law to give yourself a little a bit of balance away from the office and away from the stress and away from the intensity. Of course as lawyers were all going to pick more intense and adrenaline rushing activities. I ski, I scuba dive, I’ve been down to about 700 feet in a homemade submarine. So, yeah, lawyers are a little out there sometimes. But jump in there, have a good time and get yourself a life.
If you’ve liked what you heard today, please rate us on Apple podcast or your favorite podcasting app. You can also visit us on the legaltalknetwork.com where you can sign up for our newsletter. I’m Craig Williams. Thanks for listening. Please join us next time for another great legal topic. Remember, when you want legal, think Lawyer 2 Lawyer.
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