EP 911- First Generation Attorneys

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. My name is Elizabeth McNulty, and today I am with Liz Lenivy. How are you doing, Liz?

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I’m great, Elizabeth. How are you?

Elizabeth McNulty:

Oh, so great. So today you’ll just be hearing from the two Elizabeths, so hopefully we have enough to entertain you. Today we’re going to talk about something that we can both relate to a lot, the journey of being first generation attorneys. It’s something we’ve touched on in certain episodes when it’s related to the topics, just because being a first generation lawyer, the practice can be a little bit different for us, at least when you’re getting started. Law schools can be more challenging and finding your own network is something that can be more difficult. So while I do have another lawyer in my family, it’s just my older brother. He’s four years older than me, so I don’t know that technically counts we’re in the same generation. So I feel like we’re both first generation lawyers, if that makes sense. I might have a little leg up here just because someone did go to law school right before me, but ironically, we never really spoke about it.

So I was just as unprepared as any other first generation lawyer. And we’ve had a lot of law students and clerks ask us, what are your dos and don’ts? And we thought we would kind of incorporate that into our point of view as first generation lawyers.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I think one of the first questions that always come up whenever you are the first lawyer in your family is why? What made you want to become a lawyer? I think when you come from a family of lawyers and you grow up around that, it’s something you’re easily exposed to, and I’ve probably talked about this before. I don’t think I actually met an attorney for the first time until I was in college. And I was in the pre-law program at my college and I had one as a professor. Up until then, the only attorneys I knew about were the ones I had seen on TV. So in thinking about why law school for me, it just seemed like a profession that spoke to the skillset that I had and that I was more interested in developing. I mean, I’ve made the joke before that with my mom, I basically had three career options, which was doctor, lawyer or engineer, and I don’t like math and sometimes blood grosses me out.

So it seemed like lawyer was the only option. But genuinely, I have always been interested in researching and in writing, and I’ve always been a big fan and a student of history. And I feel like law ties in so many of those aspects, obviously research and writing, but when we think about history, law has always been such an important part of any, in my opinion, important phase of history. When we think about civil rights or women’s rights, so much of that has been because lawyers have been there pushing for those big progressive changes. And that’s something that has always really appealed to me. So I felt like law just naturally was a calling. What about you? And I know your brother went to law school, but having met you and having met your brother, I don’t think that your brother going to law school necessarily affected your decisions and what you chose to do for yourself.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. It’s a question I haven’t thought about in kind of a long time. It just always seemed like a good path to go down. I knew I wanted to go to some sort of professional school post-grad. And when I sat and thought about what I was just naturally good at, it leaned more towards a career in the law as opposed to being a doctor was kind of something that I thought about for a long time, but I didn’t really love science. I do. I’m a lawyer who does like math. I’ve lost some of my math skills while being a lawyer, but I did really like math. I was an economics and undergrad and really enjoyed that. And I knew that going to law school would kind of provide me with so many different career options because you can do so much with a law degree and it just seemed like a good fit for me.

Obviously I was one of those classic kids who love to argue and I think that any kid who likes to argue is told to go to law school, which I don’t think is like the best advice sometimes. So just think it through if you’re one of those kids, but it certainly does come in handy now and again.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I think what we need to start doing is encouraging kids who are problem solvers and maybe peacemakers. Maybe they should be the ones to go to law school. Maybe we would get some more resolution faster.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. I think that’s great advice and something we should all consider when being around young kids, just because you like to argue doesn’t mean you should be a lawyer. You should try to resolve conflict instead. Okay. So talking first generation lawyers, do you think that we share any common traits in going down this path?

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I mean, I think part of being a first generation lawyer, there is a certain, you got to have a certain level of ambition. It is a really big undertaking law school. Three years of law school after completing four years of undergrad, all of the student loans that come with it, it is a really onerous undertaking and especially if you don’t know what you’re doing. And I remember I had always said I wanted to go to law school. I had said that since I was in high school, and no shade to my high school, but it was a smaller high school in rural Illinois. I didn’t have a lot of kids who were interested in pursuing law at my school. And so I don’t feel like I got a ton of guidance on what to do other than, well, study hard on your ACT and get good grades and then you’ll get to college and you’ll figure it out once you get there.

And I was lucky enough that at my college, St. Louis University, they had a pre-law program. So everything was laid out for me, but there were still certain things that I … I didn’t know when I needed to start studying for my LSAT. I frankly didn’t actually know what the LSAT was other than I knew it was the test I had to take. I basically was like, “Oh, it’s like the ACT for law school.” It is not the ACT for law school. It is a very different kind of test. It tests a very different type of skill, at least it did. I don’t know if they’ve changed the format since then, but I just felt like I was flying blind. I did not do great on my first LSAT and that is really difficult for me because I’ve always been such an overachiever. I’ve never really struggled with school.

I mean, I’ve always had to study and work hard, but I found that if I put in the effort, school came easily to me. The grades came easily to me. And I think that the LSAT was the first time I had not exceeded or at least met my own expectations. And that really should have been the sign to me of what was coming because frankly, my first year, first semester in particular of law school, I did not meet my own expectations. I don’t want to say I did bad because I think my grades in the grand scheme of things were fine, but I just expect … I was a straight A student. I got straight A’s in college. I thought I was going to waltz right into law school and get straight A’s. And so when those Bs hit that transcript, at the end of my first semester of law school, that was like a punch to the gut.

And I did not know how to process it. I really struggled in, I guess, giving myself any grace or forgiving myself. I did not flunk, but I felt like a failure.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Well, and I think that’s part of what makes it a little bit more challenging as someone who doesn’t have anyone else to compare it to who’s already been through law school, because that is like that first punch in the face, whether it be from your LSAT results, getting into law school or your first set of exams. It’s just like a whole new world, especially for most people who are going to law school, like both of us are like really high achievers and generally that came really naturally. And so I feel like I had a similar experience like the LSAT, I was just like … I did fine, but you are so used to being in the 90th percentile of everything that you’re doing up until that point, you’re like, “Wait, whoa, what? ” And then you start to question, should I keep doing this? But at that point, my mind had been made and that’s what I was going to continue to do.

So yeah, when I started law school, I had a similar, “I have no idea what I’m doing.” And that’s sort of just how it works when you don’t have anyone who’s kind of walked that road already for you, but I feel like it’s almost a benefit because so much of the practice of law is just figuring it out. And so when you had to do that from day one, just figure out what you’re doing, it makes once you enter the profession a little bit easier, because truly like every day we’re just set with like a new set of problems that we have to figure out. And so if you’ve been doing that since you started law school, it’s somewhat of a benefit instead of … And I’m sure that people whose parents were lawyers, grandparents were lawyers, that seems like quite a luxury. And I don’t want to make it seem like they had it easier than we did because law school is hard for everyone.

But I do think it’s a benefit that at least you can see from this side of it that having to walk a new path for yourself is really challenging in the moment, but you learn a lot of lessons the hard way.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Look, I was never great at law school. I found that the classes that I excelled at were practical skills classes, which I think translates into why I do the kind of work I do now, getting to be in front of people and talking and having to think on the fly and just being in the moment and sort of being in the mix of things, that’s what being a trial lawyer is. And I credit law school for teaching me that about myself, which I think until that point, I had always just thought, “Well, I’m a really good student.” And I realized that I needed to develop other skills if I was going to have the kind of career and success that I had, again, had the expectations for myself.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. I think that one of the biggest things you learn during law school is more about yourself. It really shows you what you’re made out of. I moved to St. Louis without really knowing anyone here. And it was kind of a scary experience because I’m doing a couple of things for the first time ever, going to law school, living on my own and living in a completely brand new state and city. So that was scary and I don’t think I could have done it without the support of my parents who didn’t go to law school, but they’d already helped support one kid through. But my brother went to the same undergrad in law school. So what I did was just a completely different experience than what he did. And my parents, God bless them, came up every other weekend to kind of help me through it.

And I don’t know what I would’ve done without them. So they were kind of the support that I had through that that really helped get me through everything.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

We’ve talked a lot about getting to the point of law school and some of the things that we’ve learned. I think a really important aspect of being a first generation lawyer is that we don’t have that network naturally built in. For me, obviously no lawyers in my family, but also no lawyers in my immediate circle. My parents weren’t friends with attorneys or anyone that might be able to give me some guidance on that. I had to develop that on my own. And then for you in particular, you’re not only developing that network on your own, but you’re in a brand new city doing that. So what advice do you give to law students? Because that’s really when you begin developing your network. How do you start taking advantage of all the things your law school offers you to build up that network for yourself?

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. I think the biggest one is you have to start doing all of that. Law schools offer so many networking opportunities. And when you’re, especially in your first year, you’re like, “I don’t have time for that. I don’t want to think about that. I’m just trying to figure out how to do the school part. I can’t figure out how to do the social and the networking part.” But you have to push yourself to get out there and meet people because like literally everything in law school, it’s so much easier if you start working that muscle, meeting people, having uncomfortable introductory conversations as a part of networking. It’s so much easier to do that in law school and get used to it than when you’re in the practice of law, because your first year out of law school is a lot harder than your first year in law school, I would say, because you’re a real professional now.

So as much as you don’t want to make time for those things, I think you have to get out there, take advantage of the opportunities. If it’s something that’s uncomfortable for you, just like set small goals of talking to two random people at those kinds of events. And also, I think no matter what kind of community you find yourself in, whether you’re going to like a huge school in a big state or if you’re going to like a smaller local law school, those networks are going to follow you throughout your career. So keep that in mind when making friends and don’t burn any bridges. I think that’s something when you’re going straight through undergrad into law school, at 23 years old, you’re probably like, “Oh, I’m never going to see a bunch of these people again.” But you never know when you might be on the opposite side of a case from one of your classmates or maybe you need a favor looking for someone in a certain area of law.

So just always be professional and friendly. And like they say in most first days of law school, your reputation starts on day one.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Laughing at myself a little bit because this month marks 10 years since I graduated from law school, which is a horrifying thought to think about. I cannot spend too much time reflecting on that because where has the last decade gone? But your comment kind of made me chuckle because I realize I’m really struggling to remember a lot of things from law school. Sometimes I can’t remember some of the professors I had or what classes I took or … There’s a lot of things that I have just let go from my brain because I need to make space for more important things. Of course. You know what I haven’t forgotten? The people who were jerks in law school, I still remember all of those people, full government names. I’ve got those, I’ve got that list in my brain, but it’s because it’s true.

Who you are in law school, which is tough because think about it, these are 22, 23 year olds rolling in, I get it, that frontal lobe still cooking, all right, not fully developed, you’re barely an adult, but your reputation does begin to follow you. And I know that we often think about your first year as an associate is when you’ve entered the profession, now you’re a professional. I think really you become a professional when you make the decision to begin law school because you are undertaking this profession. When you’re an undergrad, you can still pursue any number of different occupations from there. I mean, there’s people that they may go to school for one thing, find themselves doing something completely different. But if you are going to law school with the specific intention and plan of continuing to follow along that path, then you enter the profession day one, the moment you begin your classes.

And so your reputation is immediately important. And there are some people I know, I’m not going to name them now, even though I do know their names, who have had to spend the last couple of years since graduation trying to undo some of the things they did in law school. And I understand it is a competitive environment. It’s a competitive environment surrounded by naturally competitive people. Everyone that goes in there is probably a winner, has probably spent their entire life winning, being academically gifted, being at the top of their class. And now we’re all in this bubble together and we’re competing on a curve, which the curve is the craziest thing that hit me. And there are some people that I think let that competition get to their head and they wear that … We make the joke about gunners and they wear that gunner badge as a source of honor and pride, and it is not.

You can be enthusiastic, you can be excited and want to participate. And frankly, you can be a bit of a gunner. That’s fine. People, they’re naturally extremely ambitious people who wear that on their sleeve. But where the problem lies is when you are allowing that competition to interfere with your relationships and how you treat people. And we all know those people from law school. We remember them. We will always remember them.That’s the point. So if you are in law school right now or thinking about law school or whatever, just be very aware that that will follow you. Whoever you were in law school will follow you out.

Elizabeth McNulty:

All right. While you’re in law school, graduating, studying for the bar, at some point you’re going to have to start looking for your first job. And hopefully you started sooner rather than later. But for first generation lawyers, it goes back to not having a built-in network, having to create your network from scratch. And that can make the job search process a lot more difficult because you might just be reaching out to other lawyers in your area cold, or you might be relying a lot more on your law school’s career services to help you find a job. And that can be a stressful time on top of an already really stressful time in your life. So Liz, what was that kind of job search process like for you?

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yeah. Oh, I feel like I’ve put so much of it out of my brain because again, it’s been 10 years. What do you want me to remember after 10 years? I know. I remember applying to lots of different firms. Oh, this is what I distinctly remember, being the only one in my friend group who did not have a job lined up by the beginning of our last semester. So that was not great. I was very stressed out, but I do remember my dad passed away my 2L year, but I do remember after maybe not doing so great, my 1L year, him talking to me and just saying, “Hey, things just have a way of working out. If you continue to work hard, you stay humble and you remember who you are, things will just work out for you, ” which is a very nice dad thing to say.

Elizabeth McNulty:

It’s such good advice, but in the moment it’s the hardest advice to take. It’s like, “Okay, great. Sure.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

For you to say.” But I do carry that with me and at least for me, it has rung true. I think the important thing to remember as a first generation lawyer is that you don’t have to stick with the first job that you get out of law school. And frankly, the most important thing is getting a job out of law school. You got to hit the ground running. You want to be able to start getting that experience. And that’s sometimes a struggle for me, I don’t want to say that my first job out of law school was one I took out of desperation. It was a firm that gave me really great experience and they gave me a lot of opportunities to do things. I got to do real substantive work because of the place that I was at and I got good mentorship through that.

And so now when I sometimes have law students come and talk to me and they say, “Well, how did you get to where you are? ” Because I’m at a really great firm, we’ve got a great reputation. I’ve had a lot of great opportunities that have provided me and afforded me success in my career. And of course, I worked hard to get that, but I also realized there is an element of, there’s some element of just luck and timing

That comes with this. And so I tell people, well, I kind of give them the same advice that my dad gave, which is you work hard, remember who you are, stay humble, and things will find a way of working out. Now, you may not have that linear path. You may say, “I want to do X job,” and that may not be available for you immediately. You may have to have a couple stops along the road, but you will eventually get there, or you’re going to find out maybe that was never the right path for you and something else is going to catch your attention and pique your interest and you’re going to find that that’s your passion. And sometimes where I find difficulty in speaking to some younger lawyers or law students is when they think a job may be beneath them. And that is difficult for me to process because I’ve always, just the work ethic that my parents instilled in me is that you’re never too good for any job.

If someone’s willing to pay you, you show up, you do the job, and you do it to the best of your ability. That is sometimes where I don’t know if the advice I’m giving is falling on deaf ears, but I am a true believer in if you need a job, you take a job and maybe you’ll find that you really like it and you’re really good at it and you want to stick it out, or at least you can use that as the platform to then get to the next thing for you.

Elizabeth McNulty:

All jobs provide opportunities to learn lessons, and maybe it’s your first job out of law school, you don’t love it. Great. You learn that you don’t love whatever practice are you in, or maybe you just don’t love the vibes at the particular firm you’re at, but you can do good work and also look for a new job. It’s not the end of the world. I think so many of us, you’re going through law school, you’re trying to figure out what you want to do with your career, and then you can’t find a job in that specific practice area. Well, that’s okay. The arc of your career is long and maybe you’re not going to have the same job at the same firm forever, and that’s okay. I don’t really know how realistic that is for everyone anyway, just because sometimes you’re not meant to be at the same place forever.

So I think that that’s worthwhile advice. It’s really hard for law students to seem to want to take it. If you told me that during 3L, I probably would not want to listen to you either, so I get it. One thing that I found to be pretty beneficial was to get sort of creative about my network and how to connect with other lawyers in the area. My parents had a family friend who worked for MATA, the Missouri Association of Trial Attorneys, which is an organization in Missouri that obviously includes all plaintiff’s lawyers, or not all, but lots of plaintiff’s lawyers are a part of that. And so I reached out to her when I started law school and was like, “Hey, would love to get some mentorship if you know anyone.” She was kind enough to email out in the listserv, and that’s how I got connected with Amy Gunn.

So it’s just kind of a crazy how these things tend to work out. It is kind of true. Things just work out if you put in the work and you put in the time and you have to be patient about it.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I think to that point too is one of the most important things about being a young lawyer, first generation, especially, and something I wish someone had really instilled in me. Of course, we all hear like, “Build your network and stay in contact, grab coffee and lunch with people. ” But no one sat me down, looked me in the eyes and was like, “Take this seriously. Do this. ” I truly thought that if I work hard and I get good enough grades, then I’ll get a job and everything will be fine. And I’ll go to that job and I’ll work really hard and I’ll put in my hours and people will notice me and that’s all I have to do. All I have to do is go to work. That is not how this job, this industry operates. So the advice that I really wish someone would have beaten into my brain at the beginning of law school, but certainly at the end of law school as I actually entered the profession is that it is incumbent upon you to nurture your network.

And what I mean by that, it is not enough to expect people to just reach out to you. You have to make that effort. And here’s the thing, people are almost always happy to make that connection. And so when I tell law students or my law clerks at the end of their clerkships and I’m letting them out into the world, baby bird is out of the nest and you’re going to go. And I tell them genuinely, “You have my cell phone number. You have my email. Call me, email me. I want to do lunch with you. I want to grab coffee with you. ” But here’s the thing, now 10 years out into practice, I have so many parts of this job and so many people that I interact with that I can’t remember. And maybe that’s on me, I get it. But if you are looking for mentorship, when someone makes that offer to you, follow up on it.

And I mean, I just recently had a former law clerk send me a message on LinkedIn and say, “Hey, would love to grab lunch.” And she and I had a great lunch and I got to hear about all the cool things she’s doing at her job and how she is just killing it in the workplace and using all of the skills that she learned here to do that job. And now she’s at the top of my brain. Now, I don’t think she’s looking for a new job, but especially if you are someone who is considering, maybe I want to switch to a different firm or maybe I want to get into a different practice area, you want to be at the top of people’s brains. So it is important for you as a young lawyer, first generation, building your own network to nurture that network.

Elizabeth McNulty:

And I think for women lawyers especially, we’re always happy when someone reaches out and wants to grab coffee or lunch because we understand what it was like to be in their shoes and not know a lot of lawyers. And lawyers are also always very happy to talk about themselves. So if you give us an opportunity to do that, we’ll certainly take you up on it. I presented at Wash U a few weeks ago, and the topic was how to utilize your network. And I was surprised at how many questions there were about how you should approach lawyers that you’ve already made initial contact with. Maybe you had a conversation at one of those networking happy hours and the students were so concerned about how they should go about then utilizing those connections. And I think the advice I gave then is the same advice I’ll give now.

It’s pretty simple. You just reach out to those people and once you’ve already established a rapport with them, which you hopefully did wherever you met them, you just have to make the ask of whatever it is you’re asking. If you know that they know another lawyer that’s hiring, we’d always be happy to put you in connection with those people or if there’s an area of law you’re looking to get into and we’re in that area, we’re happy to talk to you about it. So I think it sounds like this big, scary thing, but we’re just people and lawyers ultimately at the end of the day, we got into this profession because we want to help people and that is at the root of it. So if you’re one of those people, it’s like, “I’ve made these connections. Now I don’t know what to do with them.” You just reach out to them and make the ask, get to the point and you’ll almost always certainly find some help with that.

So I think that’s something that I wish I had known earlier and especially in law school because that’s the best time to be making those kinds of connections because lots of lawyers are always willing to help out fresh law students just because everyone remembers how scary that experience is.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Trying to think about people who maybe were in the same situation as I was. Again, growing up, I didn’t know any lawyers, I didn’t really know many people who had “white collar jobs.” And as a child, I would look at these people and these adults who had these kinds of jobs and be like, “Oh, they’re so busy and they’re so important. They can’t possibly want to be bothered by me. ” And I carried that attitude with me Even post law school graduation where I genuinely thought people considered themselves too important to want to waste time on me. And it’s taken me a couple years of actually being in the practice. And now I’m in this weird position where people come to me, like law students or young lawyers come to me and they’re kind of awkward and look nervous. And I go, “Oh no, you’re me.

This is exactly what I looked like. Scared that I’m bothering people and you’re never bothering me. ” And that’s the thing I realize is that these are people and like you said, we got into this profession because we wanted to help people. And I think so many of us consider ourselves problem solvers and we want to get good solutions and resolutions for people. And we want to see people succeed, whether it’s our clients or mentees or whoever. I think it’s taken me a couple of years to realize you can have a very quote unquote prestigious job in a very serious profession and still be a normal person.

And that is something that I hope anyone who’s listening realizes if you go about it politely and you go about it respectfully, you’re not bothering anyone. And so really like make those connections. And I’m always really impressed when people reach out to me and we’re able to connect and have good conversation. And the other thing that I want to add is you can ask people just questions about themselves. I know so often when we’re in networking situations, we focus so much on our jobs, like what kind of cases are you working on? What have you tried? And I think if we’re going to make connections and be able to provide good mentorship, or if you’re seeking out good mentorship, you kind of have to know the person as a person. And we are more than just our careers. So I’m fine when people ask me, “Well, are you married?

Tell me about your family.” And I do the same thing for mentees. Of course, I want to know why you went to law school and what kind of law you’re interested in. I want to know the sort of nuts and bolts of what kind of professional you want to be, but I also want to know a little bit about your background. Maybe that will help me in providing you good mentorship if I know a little bit more about you as a person. So don’t be afraid to open up and share a little bit and also try to seek out some of those more human details from the people that you’re connecting with.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I also think that makes it so much easier to remember things about that person when you see them again, because it’s really hard to remember what kind of case they were working on, but it’s a lot easier if you remember about their dog or their kids or the last trip they went on. And then it’s easier to make conversation if you have some kind of connection point. Another trap that we fall into as maybe first generation lawyers is part of our personality generally is like bootstrapping. We’re in a place where we don’t know what’s going on and we’re just going to figure it out and we’re going to do it ourselves. And it’s really hard to be a lawyer and try to figure everything out by yourself without asking for help. And you’re going to need help at some point. And I think that that’s why it can be really hard to rely on a network that you’ve built because you think that you should be able to find a job without any help and you should be able to do it all by yourself.

But that’s just not how it works. And life will be a lot easier for you if you aren’t afraid to ask for help just in general. But also if you find yourself looking for a job, rely on your network just because people are going to be willing to help you, but you have to ask them.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

And that’s important I think that we need to reframe too. Asking for help, that is work in a way.

I mean, it’s not the same as studying or working on your cases or working up cases, whatever, but having to network and develop these relationships, at least, I don’t know, for me, I’m really introverted. It is exhausting sometimes going to some of these events. They’re so good and I get so much out of them. And I will say, I genuinely love the St. Louis legal community. We have a really strong bar here and I’m very thankful for that because I’ve heard not all cities are the same way, but it’s still, I just know my personality. It takes a lot out of me, but I get so much out of it. And so I look now as networking and maybe asking for help and trying to develop those relationships, that is work in and of itself. And I should be able to recognize that if I’m putting in the work, I deserve the good outcomes that come with it.

So that’s a way I’m trying to reframe it in my brain, my bootstrappy brain as well.

Elizabeth McNulty:

All right, Liz. Well, I think this has been a somewhat insightful conversation from one bootstrapper to another.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Somewhat insightful. Let’s not give ourselves too much credit.

Elizabeth McNulty:

All right. If you insist. But I hope that the first generation law students or lawyers out there who might be listening have taken something away. But I also think that we gave some advice that anyone could have a good takeaway from. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Heals in the Courtroom. We drop episodes every other Wednesday. If you have any questions, you can reach out to us at [email protected]. Don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave us a review until next time. Thanks.

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