EP 901- What Motivates You?

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, a podcast about successfully navigating law and life featuring the women trial attorneys at the Simon Law Firm.

Amy Collignon Gunn:

Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. I am Amy Gunn, and today I am joined by Mary Simon, Liz Lenivy and Erica Slater. Happy New Year, ladies. Happy year. Happy New Year. So we were thinking about doing a New year’s resolution or goals for the future, and we frankly looked back at our past episodes and saw that we did one last year that we didn’t even remember doing so, and we haven’t met any of those goals yet, right? And we’re embarrassed to say that most of our goals or resolutions were not kept as still working on usual with those things. So what’s the point? Instead, we want to talk about what motivates this is the time of year that feels like a new leaf is being turned over. You feel like you’ve got all kinds of new things to look forward to in a brand new year.

And we thought, well, let’s talk about what motivates us instead of what those particular goals are. Our resolutions are what motivates us to get up and do everything we have to do every day. So I actually had something happen a number of years ago, and this, for some reason, this made me think about that story, but also I think it just kind of tells a little bit about me and what motivates me. So you all know that we represent injured folks from either med mal, motor vehicle accidents, et cetera. So what we have to do is a lot of investigation before we bring the lawsuit. And so the client contacts us, we enter into a business relationship, we gather records, we analyze the case, and that oftentimes we’ll take a lot of time and energy. We put a lot of thought into whether to continue a case largely because if we can’t be successful at the end, no one’s happy.

And so what happens a lot of times is you sign up the case, the client, because the case has been signed up, thinks that there’s hope, that there could be a resolution at some point, and sometimes there’s not because we can’t even go forward. So I had a client, I get the medical records, I take a look at everything. I spend a lot of time and energy analyzing it, review the records, talk to experts, and it’s just not there. It’s a close call, but it’s just not there. And I know with the venue, there’s just a lot of these non-tangible things that I believe in my experience, it can’t be successful. And so I write a very lengthy, detailed, what we call reject letter or declination letter to the client. And it’s not that I don’t want to have a conversation with that client, it’s that I want to get my thoughts on paper so they can read it.

And then I always either set up a time to talk with them after they’ve received it or say, call me to discuss further, but I really want to put it in writing. I think that’s more helpful. But some people get the letter and then automatically you are the enemy automatically, you’re the person that is the bad guy, even though we’ve spent time, money, resources, whatever, to get to the bottom of it and frankly are saving that person a lot of angst in my opinion, not going through two years or three years of litigation and potentially losing a trial. So those are things that you can’t really put in writing. I try to be very, very methodical about what I’ve done, what I’ve found, how I’ve reached my decision, and thank you very much. Here’s your statute of limitation, seek a second opinion and that kind of thing. So I sent the letter and it went out in the afternoon. It was an email letter, and what do you do first thing when you get up in the morning?

Erica Blume Slater:

Check your email.

Amy Collignon Gunn:

Yeah, I can’t help myself. You check your email. And so I checked my email and there was this rude, nasty email response from this client, and it was very much, you didn’t even get all the right records. I know you didn’t talk to this person or that person. You’re not very considerate because considerate attorneys would do this and that, and it just went on and on. And my first, I’m still wiping the sleep out of my eyes and you’re just fired up. Your heartbeat starts going fast and you’re just mad. And so what motivates me, the motivation was I’m just going to clap back at this person. Actually, I don’t even think that’s true. I’m not even sure that was truly ever a motivation of mine, but it’s always a first thought. You want to clap back and you want to say basically, you don’t appreciate me.

Here’s what I’ve done. But that makes it about me and it’s never about me. It should never be about me in this context. There’s plenty of times when it’s about me, don’t get me wrong, but not in this context because then it just opens it up to more discussion. And so I thought about it, and as you know, I get on the treadmill in the morning and it motivated me to work harder on the treadmill because I needed to just get out some frustration. So get up, welcome the treadmill. And that also just gives my mind time to start. How am I going to turn this around to where this particular client not only is no longer frustrated, angry, rude to me, but just the opposite becomes the case. And so my mind starts going to that. What can I do to respond in a professional way, but actually basically let them know?

And so I thought about it, I thought about it, and so I put together this professional response email that, I’m sorry that you feel this way, and I understand that clients can be disappointed when the cases are found not to be meritorious. And I kind of went on down that line of, look, I understand and I really sympathize with you. I was mostly sincere about it, but also sort of defending my own honor. And it wasn’t too long after that this client called and was just so apologetic. Obviously she looked at the email and needed someone to lash out. And oftentimes it’s us. It’s us. It’s not the doctor or the person that caused the accident. They’re not in front of them. It’s us. And so I could have very easily not responded at all because I had rejected her case. She was no longer my client.

I could have not responded at all, but I was waiting for that phone call. I was manifesting that phone call because partly is I do want to do a better job explaining, and I’ll tell you, I did feel badly. I could have done that better. There was something about that letter that peered unfeeling or bad timing or something. I didn’t completely absolve myself of culpability and creating that reaction from the client. But basically I’m motivated by this idea that I do want people to be satisfied with their experience with the firm and with me in particular. And I love getting that phone call or that response that’s sort of like, I’m sorry. You’re right. And I work hard to get that. So what motivates me? All kinds of things. All kinds of things motivate me, but not the least of which is making sure that the folks that we do work for really do appreciate us, even when we say we can’t help ’em. Okay, Erica, you got something,

Erica Blume Slater:

Man. And you’ve held onto that for a couple of years.

Amy Collignon Gunn:

It happens more often than not. And what happens is I get those emails and we all do, right? Whether it’s from opposing counsel or from clients. And I think that that’s an exercise in poor self-restraint. Number one, I’m already trying to understand why somebody could flip off the handle like that to someone who’s only trying to help them. So I’m trying to understand the motivation behind that email and trying to give some grace to that person to understand it. But really it happens a lot. And in that first minute, I’m mad. I think it’s rude and I’m mad, but I turn it around, I’m like, okay, girl, how can you turn this around and make this into something that makes you really feel good about yourself? I turned that person into somebody who was really mad and angry into all of a sudden feeling sorry for making me upset. It’s weird. It’s weird, but it’s motivation.

Erica Blume Slater:

I don’t mean to sound cliche, but the same type of things motivate me. So when I’m looking back, and I’ll keep it short, the last three years or so in my career, and I’m thinking of the times that drive me or motivate me or I can, you’re almost giddy with like, yes, that will carry the next month. It’s always the time where I’m faced with an opportunity. It’s usually an opposing counsel being just trying to serve it to you and not taking the bait and then kicking their ass. I mean, is there anything more motivating?

Amy Collignon Gunn:

No, no, no. I

Erica Blume Slater:

Know I had an experience this past year and it was in a mediation, and I will give no details that will allow anyone to distinguish themselves in this fact pattern. But I stuck to my guns to the extent, I mean, of course the other side was telling me, no, no, no, no, no. My clients said, I trust you and whatever you think we’re going to do. And the mediator was even like, I don’t think so, but if I got to do what you tell me, and it worked out. And I walked away from that thinking, yep, all I got to do is trust my gut. I didn’t let anyone knock me off of what I knew to be the case. I got it done for my clients without, they were a hundred percent on board and trust in me, which made the pressure that much more.

It was me driving the number and saying nothing less than this. It was a very long day. And I mean other experiences like that, whether it’s success on emotion or a trial result or something like that, when you’re just able to hand it to someone who has been so difficult or you took a risk and it pays off, I mean, if you could just bottle that up, I know, sell it, be billionaires, literally. Well, and I remember Liz, that case that you were going to try with me that we resolved at the last moment, I literally,

Liz Lenivy:

Which case that I was supposed to try with you that we resolved at the last, I feel like you bring me in because I’m like, you’re a lucky rabbit’s. Spot was Case is closed. When I get the second chair say, you know what? Your number Liz, I file that entry of appearance. And they’re like, oh, no, to

Erica Blume Slater:

Get that’s hammer. So that case we resolved at the last minute, and that was such a difficult opposing counsel. And that was another case where we had been mediating it and the mediator, it failed at mediation. The mediator got engaged a couple days before trial. And the mediator, man, he was doing his damnedest, and he was so frustrated with me, and I’m like, I get it. I’d be frustrated with me too, but you can’t convince me that they’re not going to pay that. And guess what

They did? And it’s those moments that, I mean, that motivates the hell out of me, and I can feel that feeling. And after we settled that case, I literally made myself a note and put it away, wrote myself a note almost like I don’t journal, but if I did, that’s what it was because I felt so good and so victorious after that guy was gaslighting me for a year and a half in that case and telling me how ridiculous my case was and how my minor client was a liar. And I loved this kid. I mean, he was in high school. I shouldn’t call him a kid, but it just felt so good. And that kind of stuff motivates me. It’s proving people wrong and rising the challenge. And when it comes to you now that it’s easy to recognize and you feel that initial, you want to punch him in the face real quick. And now I love it when I have that feeling because I’m like, Ooh, it’s happening. Yes,

Amy Collignon Gunn:

I

Erica Blume Slater:

Have an opportunity. It feels bad

At first, but first, second, look at it like an opportunity because you’re like, oh, it’s here again. And just wait. I can’t think of a time I’ve had that feeling and it’s smacked me in the face or my mind is such that I have protected myself from that when it has. So I have found those opportunities to stick in my mind as motivating instead of if I’ve ever lost in those scenarios, it’s fine. So yeah, that’s what motivates me. And the lesson I think from that our listeners can take away is I’ve learned to trust myself and not allow anyone to tell me what I know to be true.

Amy Collignon Gunn:

Liz, tell us about your motivation, babe.

Liz Lenivy:

Yeah, so I have been listening to you all tell your stories. And I mean, I think baseline, all of us have a motivation of we want to do a good job for our clients and we want to help people. And we love the feeling of knowing we help people. And we actually, our office was in the process of moving. And while I was packing up my old office in preparation for bringing it into the new space, I actually found a note or an email that I printed out and I saved. And I had tucked away from an alternate juror on a trial we had who basically just wrote me an email saying what a great job our team had done, how impressed she was by me. And I was like, I haven’t looked at this in six years. This is really nice. So that was a nice little reminder of this is why we do the work that we do, but in thinking about this, what motivates me, I’ve just had a really good week and I think it kind of, frankly, we’re recording on a Friday and I don’t think anything can go wrong between now and 5:00 PM we love this for you.

But Monday evening I got an order in on a case that I’ve worked really hard on. It has just been a bear of a case. We got the result that we wanted and I felt like a real rush when I saw it come through and how exciting it was.

Erica Blume Slater:

I have to tell you to tell you, I assume you were being told you were so wrong.

Mary Simon:

I have to tell you, I told my husband about that and I was telling him how proud I was of you because you were so prepared. And I am like, this is the truth. She knows it. She believes it. This is going to be great.

Liz Lenivy:

Yes. So then, I mean, good things just kept coming this way because then on later in the week, great watching, I got to go to court and argue a hearing on a really tough issue on emotion I had spent a lot of time working on, I was really excited to give this argument and I spent a lot of time preparing for it, and I felt myself getting so worked up in the hearing. And it’s kind of a tightrope. We have to walk between feeling passionate and wanting to advocate for our clients and hoping that our passion will inspire the court, but also not sounding like an insane person. I’m having a good week. And then today, this morning, I had the pleasure of doing a little bit of pro bono work. I was over at Legal Services helping out with the pro bono clinic, helping a survivor of domestic violence file and get her paperwork ready for divorce proceedings.

And it is, I don’t know, they create all these forms and I’m sitting there with a law degree and I’m still, sometimes I don’t know how to fill this out. How was someone supposed to do that? But the client was so nice, she was so friendly, she was so thankful, and I got to feel really good for a couple of hours of, I did a nice thing for someone today. And then after this I’m going to go, actually, I have to leave in a minute to go to a high school because I’m coaching a mock trial team and I’m thinking about what I’ve done with my day, which really has not been any work on any of my cases. I’ve had a full day, not on any casework though, but doing other things. This topic we’ve been talking about, well, what motivates us, and I know this is a bit of a juvenile answer, but I just have a really cool job.

I get to do cool things. I get to learn about interesting topics and talk to lots of different people and be able to have an impact on so many different people’s lives. And the other thing I wrote down in my little notebook here is a story from a deposition a couple of months ago where it was actually a witness that I was producing. And they went on this weird side story about how much they don’t like lawyers. I’m helping this person’s loved. One, I’m this person’s loved one’s attorney, and they talked about how much they don’t like lawyers, and he used the phrase, ambulance chasers, I really don’t like ambulance chasers. And I sat there with just kind of smirked, and I totally understand. I was like, whatever, man. You’re not my client. Me either.

And the thing is, after we went off the record, the court reporter, he turned and looked at me and he was like, I’m sorry I made that comment. I go, I almost said to him and Amy, I think I’ve learned this phrase from you of I’ve been called worse, or I’ve been called worse by better. And I was like, I’m not going to say that in this moment, but it’d be really funny if I had. I said, no worries, man. I got thick skin. Takes a lot to bother me, so don’t even worry about it. But the court reporter who I had never met before, turned and was like, I don’t like it when people say that because there’s a lot of the cases that I’ve seen, the cases that I’ve done transcriptions on, these are real cases. People are really hurt and nobody likes a plaintiff’s lawyer until you need one and then suddenly they’re your best friend. And I was like, yeah, what she said, what she said. So having someone who just as a stranger validate the work that we do and the job that I do, that was really motivating. So I’ve been riding a high for a while now, and I think, I don’t know, I’m kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Something really bad is going to happen in that for a little bit,

Erica Blume Slater:

And good for you

For noticing. I mean, if you came into this whole week kind of in a bad mood now the hearings and getting some good orders, you’re not going to miss those. But that comment in a depo, you might run through that and get on with your day, but you’re latching onto it and letting it riding a high of being like, yeah, that person gets it. And right when I needed it, someone got in there. Good for you for noticing it. Sometimes I let those things, I’m like, well, that was good. And then I move on and I forget that something like that happened.

Mary Simon:

I also love that the court reporter said that, because I have said before at a time where you get a lot of negative comments about plaintiff lawyers, plaintiff lawyers. I remember saying one time to the cashier at the grocery store, I don’t know, they asked what I do and all this stuff, and they’re like, well, what type of law? And I was like, I’m the type of lawyer you hate until you need me and it’s fine. And I just quickly said it, and you could tell that they were kind of taken aback and I don’t need to hear the comments on it. I was just like, cool with it. Let’s just keep going. What’s really funny is that when we were initially talking about what motivates us, what immediately came to my mind was just winning. Winning motivates me and I in all forms. And I kind of think no matter, and I kind of think that you all actually, that’s kind of an underlying, don’t you think? Okay, yeah,

Liz Lenivy:

Everyone, we’ve all done a version of winning.

Mary Simon:

Winning is what motivates us. It can be someone telling us no, and we want to win to get to the yes. It’s someone telling you your argument’s not going to work. No, it will. I will win. That’s what motivates us.

Erica Blume Slater:

And I can literally turn the smallest thing into a winning competition, right, probably to a toxic level at some times in my life. Of course, of course it causes conflict, but if you win and then you learn how to get it under control

Mary Simon:

Or you

Erica Blume Slater:

Don’t make it to a socially acceptable level.

Mary Simon:

That’s right. Yeah. I kind of just feel like winning is a driving motivation for all of us. Another thing too that I remember seeing this quote a while ago, and it just said, being underestimated is a powerful position to be in,

And that really motivates me. And I don’t know when Do you ever not feel underestimated? I don’t know if it, because at first it’s like year one and you’re like, oh, I’m a new lawyer. Of course I’m going to be underestimated, and year two and year three, and you’re like, I don’t know. Is it because I’m the only female on the case who’s also 30 years younger than all the guys who were on the other side of the case? I don’t know. I hope it lasts. And at first it used to annoy me when I would get advice, actual advice from my opposing counsel. Normally, normally you’ll do this, or normally, I remember attorneys telling me in the first two years of practice, well, normally when I work with your firm, what they’ll do is they’ll just do. And I hated it. And it was probably, they thought it was so nice, but I just hated it because I felt so vulnerable of them trying to explain to me what my job was. And now I’ve just grown into turning that into motivation. When Amy initially started talking about the feeling your heart starts, you can just feel it when it’s getting turned on. I hope that that actually sustains throughout my career because I used to be annoyed by it, but now I just like to look at that person and say, thank you so much. Oh, that’s how it goes. Okay, just let them explain it to me and not try to turn it down at all, but just let me sit there.

Amy Collignon Gunn:

Do not disabuse them of their underestimation of you.

Mary Simon:

Yeah, it’s right. And then when I was reading about how it’s powerful, being underestimated is a powerful thing. I think that really fuels my motivation. Obviously being told you can’t do something is it’s a no-brainer that that’s going to motivate you. I mean, I think that goes into our professional life. My personal life, love my brothers. I have two older brothers. I love them, but they motivate me to no end by some of the things that they say to me, whether they mean them in a nice way, the way that they land with me, it’s fuel for the fire. It just motivates me to be a better person, a better attorney, all of those things. And another thing too is that you were talking about the students on your trial ed team, Liz, I teach trial ed at St. Louis University law school. I’ve taught a couple semesters now, and then I’ll teach in the spring as well in 2025.

But one of the students, she was just phenomenal. And at the beginning of the semester, any time that she would trip up when she was questioning a witness or whatever, she would always apologize, oh, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. And by the end of the semester, she just dropped all the apologies and she sent me an email and it was just a personal note of how she felt more confident in herself by the end of it. And I felt so motivated to just, it’s almost like a pay it forward. I’ve learned that from the women around this table, and you just pass it down and hope it keeps getting passed down. So I found that super motivating, and I can’t not mention my daughter. She motivates me so much. I hope that also sustains throughout our relationship because any parent knows that there are the days that are just really hard.

The mommy, watch Mommy, mommy, keep watching. Mommy keep watching me. That’s the phase we’re in right now. And it can feel frustrating, but at the same time, her eyes are like glue on me right now. So it’s very motivating that I, I’ve got this little audience who’s watching my every move, and I can even hear, she’ll say things to me that I’ve said, but not to her. So I just know she’s picking up every single thing that I’m saying and doing. So it’s motivating me to really go throughout my days as best as I can to be presenting a confident, self-assured person so that she’ll also feel that same sense of self and have a sense of self-awareness. When you think about the moments that you feel motivated, it’s 99% of the time, it’s when you are engaging with someone who is trying to get at you in some way. And it is. So I just wonder if that is how it works for everyone or if it’s plaintiff lawyers, because all of us are like, oh yeah, we want to win. And if you tell us we can’t do something, it’s game on.

Liz Lenivy:

I’m laughing to myself. I’m thinking of my sister, a story about my sister, which look, it was a highly inappropriate thing that she did, but I do look at it as an example of that girl’s confident in herself, and she was four years old. We have a big age gap with my sister, but she was four. She was in a gymnastics class and some little girl named Skylar, I still remember Skyler went up to her and said, Bailey, you can’t do this because you’re only four and the rest of us are five, so you can’t do this. And Bailey looked at this girl, didn’t say anything, and just hawked luie on her.

Erica Blume Slater:

Oh my gosh. Oh no, I take it back for the rest of us. She did say before she did it, she went, Hey, Skyler.

Liz Lenivy:

No. We had to have a conversation with her about you can’t spit on people. I think she learned it from TV or something. I’m sure that’s where she got it from. But I did in the moment after my mom. My mom was just mortified by it, but I was like, ain’t nobody telling her what she can and can’t do. If we’re going to find the silver lining in this really gross cloud, at least she’s got confidence.

Mary Simon:

And it’s like she’s four. And that’s the only way. It’s like her heart started racing and she felt that feeling of going to

Erica Blume Slater:

Show this girl. Yeah. Okay. Let me test a quick theory before we wrap this up. You remember the childhood game, truth or dare. You know what? You always picked Amy dare Liz.

Liz Lenivy:

I was a dare. I was a

Erica Blume Slater:

Dare person. Knew it. I knew it. I knew it. Because if

Mary Simon:

Someone says, you can’t do this or you won’t do it, it’s going,

Erica Blume Slater:

I dare. I dare you. Yes.

Amy Collignon Gunn:

From a young age. And I think the trick is knowing that that’s a motivation, but not acting on it all the time. We all want to win. Sometimes though, the win takes longer than a half second, because a short term win might be that email back telling them to whatever, jump off a bridge. That short-term win might be spitting on someone.

Liz Lenivy:

But in case say, to the best of my knowledge, my sister has not spit on anyone

Amy Collignon Gunn:

Since then. Okay, that’s great. Whatever. I’m putting it in my toolbox. That’s what I’m saying, maturity, which I think we all have. I want to say, I want to believe I’m maturing every day, but maturity allows us to win in the end and being smart about how we win, and sometimes taking the time to get to that win at the end, that is the skill of it. I think that’s what we really aspire to

Erica Blume Slater:

Is my 13 year grudge that I put to bed last year that I have described on the podcast count. Yes. Yes. That is my longest revenge. Revenge is best. My longest revenge game. Yes. And I will never forget the place it has served in my life.

Amy Collignon Gunn:

Well, listeners, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. Happy New Year to you and to your family. Please contact us at comments at heels in the Courtroom law and we’ll see you next time.

Announcer:

Heels in the Courtroom is brought to you by the Simon Law Firm at the Simon Law Firm pc. We believe in the power of pooling resources in order to create powerful results, we often lend our trial skills and experience to lawyers around the country to achieve better results for their clients. Our attorneys welcome the opportunity to work with you on your case, offering vast resources, seasoned litigators, and a sterling reputation. You can contact us at 3 1 4 2 4 1 2 9 2 9, and if you enjoyed the podcast, feel free to share your thoughts with Amy, Liz, Erica, Mary Elizabeth at Heels in the Courtroom law, and subscribe today because the best lawyers never stop learning.

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