EP 906- Hard Truths about Trial Lawyers

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heals in the Courtroom, a podcast about successfully navigating law and life, featuring the women trial attorneys at the Simon Law Firm.

Mary Simon:

Hi everyone. Welcome back to Heels in the Courtroom. I’m Mary Simon, and today I’m joined by Elizabeth McNulty and Liz Lenivy. Hey, Mary.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Hi.

Mary Simon:

So today I wanted to talk about a topic that might make it seem like we don’t love our jobs, but we love our jobs, but our jobs can be difficult at times. And the way that I kind of formulated how the conversation would go is just what are some of the hard truths about this profession? And I think more specifically about being trial lawyers. I was thinking about this, especially lately where I feel like the public’s understanding of what a trial lawyer is, is really them seeing either massive verdicts in the news or you hear about massive losses. So the in between is really what I wanted to talk about. And also, Liz, I know I was just talking with you about a lot of law students at the law schools in our area will have students email us or reach out to us to grab coffee to hear about our careers and what the job is like when they’re trying to figure out what practice area they want to go into.

And I actually do find sometimes that those conversations are kind of hard to navigate because they’ll ask questions that you’d expect someone to ask when they’re looking at jobs like, “What are the hours? Do you feel like you still have time to spend time by yourself or with family and friends? What is the firm culture like at offices like yours and others?” And even some attorneys who work here who asked me similar questions before they started asking about hours, I really had no idea how to explain it because I was thinking in my head, for a moment, it’s like all of a sudden in my head a moment flashed by and I was thinking about a time where I had the ability to go on a vacation with my family and I’m like, “Oh, it’s great.” And then I thought about the weeks leading up to and including a trial.

I look like a gremlin and I don’t sleep and I don’t eat and I don’t see my family. So it’s hard to tell someone in a sentence. It’s great and also sometimes pretty hard, but you can do it. It’s always how to be encouraging while also naming hard truths. So I wanted to have a conversation about that with you all. So maybe I can even learn what a better way is to articulate that. I thought about a couple things and so I’m going to throw them out there and see what you ladies think about it. The first is you are constantly in a position of pushing and pulling, comparing yourself to others and then pulling yourself out of that and then getting back into it. So I didn’t know how would you all think about the comparison game that I get none of us want to compare ourselves to others, but we are constantly inundated with every day we’re in situations where we find ourselves comparing ourselves to others.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yeah. And it’s not just comparing ourselves with other firms or attorneys at other firms. It’s an internal comparison

Elizabeth McNulty:

Too,

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Right? For me the other night, I was driving to the airport to pick up my husband and as I was heading down the highway, I counted four or five different attorney billboards in a row in a row. And I thought to myself, if I didn’t know anything about lawyers, but I got hurt and I needed to reach out to someone, I would feel overwhelmed with the number of options I have. And within that though, when we talk about comparisons and people reporting their massive verdicts and everything, and it’s a bit of a double edged sword as a plaintiff’s lawyer because I do look at part of it as a rising tide raises all ships, right? When someone gets a massive verdict, that then signals to the other side, our opposing counsel of, “Hey, if you want to take a risk with a jury in this particular venue,” especially sometimes there have been these huge verdicts coming out of what has been traditionally very defense friendly, defense

Elizabeth McNulty:

Safe

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Venues and someone gets a massive verdict, that’s incredible. That’s wonderful. That helps me and my clients, but also it’s always that voice in the back of your head is saying like, “You’re not doing enough. Why didn’t you get a massive verdict? Why aren’t you trying more cases? Why aren’t you bringing in more clients?” So that’s really difficult. And frankly, as someone who has never been a good marketer, my personality, it’s really difficult for me to put myself out there. And I’m very grateful I work at a firm that frankly pushes me to do that

Elizabeth McNulty:

Because

Elizabeth Lenivy:

If I didn’t have that push, I don’t know how much I would be doing on my own, but it is that constant thought of, “Am I doing enough? Am I working enough?”

Elizabeth McNulty:

Just going back to having these conversations with law students, comparison is something at least it started for me back in school. And so I think the easier way to navigate that is like, look, if that’s something that you’re comfortable with and you’re used to your peers pushing you, their results pushing you, then you’re going to be okay, but you have to be ready for that to be a lifelong thing that you’re going to have to deal with because that’s something that our results are so evident in this career. So you’re always going to deal with that. And at least for me, the way I chose to handle that is like, I just don’t care. I don’t care what other people are doing because it doesn’t have anything to do with me personally. That’s how I handled it in law school. But it takes a long time, I think, to kind of adjust to turning that noise down.

And I have to check myself routinely because you don’t know the behind the scenes of anything those people are dealing with, like getting great results or not getting great results, like those kinds of things that you hear about. So you have to just focus on what you’re doing and your journey and like knowing that you’re doing the best you can for your clients because I think that’s the best way to survive it because if you’re constantly focused on what results your peers are getting, I think it’s really hard to do the rest of this really hard job. And so if you’re in law school and you’re thinking about it and you’re like, “I don’t want to deal with that for the rest of my career, then maybe this particular part of being a lawyer, like this career isn’t the right one for you.

Mary Simon:

” It takes work to reframe it in your brain. That’s kind of what I was hearing you say, Elizabeth, and having to be able to check yourself and having the self-awareness of doing that thing where I just saw my colleague, whether at my own firm or at another firm see a bunch of success, how come that wasn’t me? And it’s like being able to say, “Eh, you’re doing that thing again. We need to stop that and kind of regroup and reframe.” Because quite frankly, it does nothing good for you anyway if you’re sitting there doing that. No.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Elizabeth, I’m really glad you brought up the warning people that maybe this isn’t the right career for you because, and Mary, you had indicated earlier about meeting with law students. And I feel like I’ve had a recent relative uptick in law students or prospective law students wanting to grab coffee or lunch with me. Good for them of you. Yeah. Good for them. I just thought I was more popular now. I’m

Mary Simon:

Sure that you, for sure.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

But I meet with these students and they say, “The type of work you do, that’s what I want to do, that’s so exciting. Tell me about all the things you love about your job.” And I feel like I have to … It’s tough because you see someone who’s young and excited and energetic and I don’t want to come in and like Debbie Downer or them, but I do feel I owe it to people to be realistic. And I say, yes, I work at a great place. I get to work on big, important, interesting cases, but this job is not just wins. And I know that when you look at our firm page or when you hear about us or you see our LinkedIn or whatever, you only see the wins. We’re not posting our losses for a reason. How do you deal with loss? How do you deal with adversity?

How do you plan on overcoming months and months and months of work and then potentially that being all for nothing?

How do you plan on dealing with it? And I can kind of see them shift a little bit in their seats a little and I’m not trying to discourage you. In fact, I hope you pursue this career. I hope you’re successful. I hope that you feel comfortable coming to me for advice. I’m happy to always give it, but I also think that I owe you a dose of reality that this job, as shiny as we make it seem on the outside, is really hard. And frankly, this job is not for everyone. And I think that that’s kind of a really tough truth that people learn. They maybe work a couple years and that always kind of breaks my heart. Someone goes through law school, they study for the bar exam,

Elizabeth McNulty:

They’re

Elizabeth Lenivy:

So excited to start their career and they get three, four years in and realize, “This is not what I want to do with the rest of my life.” I will say, however, once you make that determination that this is not something for you, you got to find something else. This job is way too hard to be miserable at it all the time.

Mary Simon:

Even thinking about someone asking, is it hard or what’s the hardest thing about it? We obviously know how to exist kind of in the rush and the adrenaline before a trial and the time that that takes. And then if a trial gets continued, what does that week look like? Or if a case settles, what does that week look like? And I mean, even just thinking about it, it being a little bit more difficult to articulate because it depends on the season you’re in. If you’re in your trial season and you’re gearing up for one, even these last weeks of mine, I have a three and a half year old. I’m pregnant now with my son who will be born in July. And currently, as a parent, what my days have looked like recently is I’m getting up incredibly early when it’s still dark outside and getting some work done because then I know I need to be with my daughter, get her off to school.

Today, I had court and my husband had court. So my mom came to bring her to school and I had this little window of time to say bye to her in the morning and do a little dance with her before I left for work. And then I’m here now. And then I know tonight I have my last meeting at five, so I’m going to have that at five. She’ll be coming home and I know I’m going to be working after she goes to bed. That’s just where I’m at right now. And I don’t feel overwhelmed by it. I don’t feel … It’s just because we just know that it kind of just comes and goes in terms of waves of intensity of how long you need to be working each day to get done with the stuff you have coming up. I know that there will be a lull at some point.

So I know in my head to give myself, I’m like, grind this out. Get your stuff done, do whatever it takes to get these cases where they need to be. It’s going to be late nights. It’s going to be early mornings and working in between nap times and school drop-offs and stuff. But also the … I know that we’re mentioning this, that it’s not for everyone. I literally could not do this job if I didn’t have the support I had at home.That is a part of this job. My mom stayed home with my two older brothers and I, while my dad built this firm to what it is now, I don’t know that he could do that if he didn’t have her … He couldn’t do it. He couldn’t do many things. If he didn’t have my mom in his life, we know this. That aspect of it is another hard truth in my opinion that is if you don’t have the support of people that you need around you, even to throw it back to law school, Elizabeth, think about during the bar exam where you would kind of tell your friends and family, “I’m out for the next however many weeks.

I might not return your text. I probably won’t go to any family functions. I’m just going to study for this exam.” I don’t know another way around that hard truth that is at times and sometimes for months at a time, this job is all consuming. It is all consuming. I love the work. I think there’s a reason why we want to keep doing it, but there are things happening in the background and adjacent to our work lives that allow us to do this. I just met a lawyer who, she is an incredible trial lawyer and for the first decade of her practice, she was single mommying it with four kids. That’s creating the environment that you need. She said it involved bringing her kids to the courthouse sometimes. That makes sense. It’s going to happen if that’s the case. Hard truth is you got to be able to spend the time to build up whatever the environment is or have it already ingrained in your friends and family or supporting environment.

Otherwise, I don’t know how you could do it. And when I say support, I mean folks who are in your corner, regardless of whether or not they’re related to you or not, who support you, not resent you when you’re in a tough season. And that also can be hard. So I just, there are so many, it’s almost like a shout out to all the supporting roles and adjacent to us sitting at our desks or our computers working that I don’t know another way that it could be possible, that we could all do the things that we want to do to the magnitude we want to do them for our clients without that.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yeah. I was laughing a little bit to myself while you were talking, Mary, because I’m in that similar type of, on the high end of the rollercoaster where I have overbooked myself. I realize I am the problem, this was my own doing, but I looked at my calendar and I said, “Okay, okay, you know what? But late June, late June, looking pretty open.” I know we’re in the last week of February, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and I know that this job will require me to probably work myself silly for the next three and a half months and then I will enter a bit of a lull.

And what I have learned after 10 years in this practice is that I should not, and I will not feel guilty for those lull periods because inevitably I’m going to be back on that upswing where I feel like my brain is all consumed by this job. And that’s just how it’s been for the last couple of weeks. That’s how it’s going to be for the next foreseeable couple of weeks. And it’s fine because I know that it goes back and forth. But ultimately, I think it’s important for people to understand, for law students to understand if they want to be a successful trial lawyer, this is not a nine to five job. No. This is not a job where you can do your 40 hours every week, all year, every year, and you’ll be successful. You’re going to have to come in early, you’re going to have to stay late.

I understand that there’s not always times where you feel like you have the most balance in your life. It is important though to have a partner who understands that. My husband and I have talked about this frequently, because he has a job where he’s very busy as well. We both basically spent the entire weekend working. He worked upstairs, I worked downstairs. It just is what it is, but we both understand that in order to be successful in our careers, we’re going to have to be a little bit more flexible with our schedules. And again, if someone says that is not the life for me, that’s not what I want. And I ask law students, “Are you cool with that? ” I know you’re working crazy hours right now, but that’s because you’ve told yourself, “I can do this for three years and then I’ll pass law school and then I’ll have a life again.

Can you now see yourself doing this for the next 40 years?” Then that finish line looks a lot further away, doesn’t it? So that’s something that I think people need to ask themselves and you have to really know yourself. And sometimes I think that’s tough when you’ve got someone at the age of, I don’t know, 23, 24 graduating. You don’t really know yourself or what exactly you want in life, which is why I always tell people, try something, but the moment you figure out that you’re having way more bad days than good days, get how.

Mary Simon:

Yeah, agree. So I love bringing it back to the law students, but I’m thinking about talking to them about not only the crazy hours or needing to have a supportive environment at home, in addition to the day-to-day case grind that we do with our clients and for our clients, we also have to understand what’s going on in the background in our state, in our country, where certain laws are standing, because there are always going to be people, especially in Missouri, who are working against our clients’ rights, like literally their ability to get into a courtroom sometimes feels like that’s being challenged or their ability to collect damages for the wrong doing that they’ve experienced. And so we’re additionally, and this is more of the unpaid labor, so to speak, one aspect of it that we’ve got to keep in mind and stay up with is making connections with folks who are writing those laws and making sure they understand the impact that a law that’s written about a simple definition of what a physician employee is.

Us knowing that we have to collectively and individually be aware of what’s happening in the background of kind of the legislative landscape of our state to know that what’s coming down the pipe in the next couple years allows us to continue having a job. And I know that that can sound dramatic, but it’s the reality. If you actually are a plaintiff’s trial lawyer and you’re looking at some of the bills that are coming down, you really need to be aware of what that is and the impact it can have on your clients because we see that in real time with caps and different standards for different types of damages that come out.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I think it’s important for people who want to get into this career to understand that this is not stagnant. We are constantly being barraged with new standards, new laws, new laws that are written that lawyers have to follow, but they were not written by lawyers, so nobody understands them. I just had this happen the other day where I was arguing the language of a newly passed statute and the judge said, “But what does that mean?” I go, “Judge, I’m going to be honest with you. I have no idea. This is about as clear as mud.” And she said, “I know. I don’t understand it either. You can tell a lawyer did not write this, but it’s the standards that we have to follow.” But I always use those conversations as well to, again, advocate for the Seventh Amendment. People have a Seventh Amendment right to a jury trial.

And when we have people who are not involved in, who are not parties in the action, who are not the potential plaintiff facing a lifetime of medical bills or an inability to work or whatever their damages may be or however they have been harmed, writing laws, when those people are writing the laws that then take away an individual’s seventh amendment right to have their case heard and decided by a jury, again, as an American, I don’t understand why we don’t get more upset about that.

Elizabeth McNulty:

That

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Is a constitutional right that is being slowly chipped away at through the legislator. And it’s always incredible to me whenever I have to have these conversations with clients, and I have them early on because we’ve talked about this before, but you got to set expectations early and I say, “This is the cap. This is how it works in Missouri.” Well, who did that? Not me,

Mary Simon:

Not

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Me.

Mary Simon:

How’d you vote? But don’t ask that.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Don’t ask that.

Mary Simon:

No.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

But I tell people, this is something that we have to look at and it can change not only how we analyze your case, it may determine whether or not we can even take your case. If a cap basically makes it so that your case is prohibitively expensive versus what you may get on the other side, I may not be able to take it. And I know that there was a recent case that we had where in this office, an attorney tried it involving the wrongful death of an infant. And what is a really awful conversation to have with a parent who’s just lost a child and thinks it may be because of medical malpractice, I’m really sorry about your dead child. The case may be too expensive to try because of the caps in Missouri. I’m really sorry. It’s out of my control. Mary, I hear you.

I am with you on that soapbox. And basically if I’m having a conversation with someone about what it means to practice in this state or frankly any state that is constantly facing tort reform, I tell them, you better be ready to pay attention to whether or not you will be legislated out of a job and be prepared to fight that. And also I’m going to educate you on what that means.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. I think one thing maybe to reassure whoever you’re having this conversation with, assuming it’s a law student, is no matter what kind of lawyer they want to be, they’re going to deal with the law ever evolving. That’s kind of what you sign up for when you go to law school and something that you should get comfortable with. The other thing is case selection kind of helps with the law is changing. Sometimes you can obviously blame it on the legislature, but no matter what profession you’re going into, you’re going to have to deal with overcoming setbacks. And so they’re just going to have to get comfortable with not always getting their way. And that’s part of growing up, I guess. It will be

Mary Simon:

Okay, Pat, I’m back.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Luckily, as a lawyer, we have a lot of tools to combat setbacks and how we can fix almost every problem we’re confronted with except for a few. So I think that that’s something that can help ease the blow of a potential really hard part of our job.

Mary Simon:

And I can’t not address a hard truth about this job too as a female trial lawyers. And I don’t even like to say female trial lawyers because we’re just trial lawyers. I don’t know why we need that qualification. The reason I’m using it in this context is to discuss some of the hard truths about being a female attorney, at least as of now, a predominantly male dominated industry, or at least the folks on the other side of our cases for the most part are male lawyers. And I say this because a lot of my friends right now are having kids or becoming parents. And I felt this a lot with my daughter, Nora, of when I was on maternity leave, you’re on maternity leave, but like you want that time with your kids, but I’m watching my male colleagues perhaps have that additional time or maybe handle cases for me, which is a wonderful thing.

It’s like I catch 22 in my brain. So I haven’t … You can even tell, by the way I’m thinking about this, I haven’t come to some sort of kumbaya conclusion about it. It’s just something I think about. There’s so much required of you if you are going to be carrying your own baby, if that’s something that you want to do, it’s wonderful. It’s just, it requires a lot of time at doctor’s offices and appointments. And I just went through, it’s no secret to the folks at this office. I just went through a very long IVF process with this baby. And I mean, thank God I work at a law firm that recognizes the importance of obligations outside of work. But I mean, I had to have so many procedures and appointments and it was interfering with the amount of work that I wanted to do.

And I would even tell my husband, “I feel like I’m behind. I’m falling behind.” And it had nothing to do with my desire to work more. I already feel like my maternity leave is creeping up on me and I shouldn’t be thinking about it like that, but I really do. I just mediated a case. I didn’t want anyone to know there that I was pregnant because I didn’t want them to think, “Oh, well, when is she due and when is this trial?” It’s not a hard truth in the sense that I don’t feel supported and respected by all of my colleagues and counsel on other side of the case. It’s only in my head, I’m just like, “Damn, I wish I didn’t have to deal with all those extra appointments and I wish I didn’t have to have a conversation at every court hearing about when I’m due.” But I don’t know.

I shouldn’t be bothered by it. It’s like a privilege and a blessing to even have this baby. I’m so happy where I’m at now, but it’s just something that always seems like it intersects with the job that’s all about deadlines and productivity. That’s another thing that you have to think about and something that you said earlier, Liz, we know so many women who will have kids and then the support is lacking so then they stop practicing. And so that’s another thing is to have support in place if you want to grow a family and you’re the person who will be carrying the baby in the family. It’s such a blessing. And again, so happy to have this boy, but it does have to have you restructure certain things in cases or with scheduling or with deadlines. And I think that that’s sometimes there’s like a stereotype or maybe a misconception of women who have babies that they’re not as dedicated or something to their job.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I don’t have kids. So I don’t know what that experience is like, but I am of an age and I’ve been married long enough that the question is always, “You got kids?” And if you don’t have them, you’re asking- Yes. … when are you going to have them? Which is always a very awkward conversation to ask. We’re like, “Are you

Mary Simon:

Married? Are you going to get married? Are you going to have a family? Are you going to … ” I just feel like maybe women are just more inundated with those comments.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yes. Mary, a couple years ago, you and I were at some type of seminar or conference or something like that, and there was a panel of very, very accomplished attorneys in front of us, four men to women. And the men were being asked questions about their practice, trial tips, advice for young lawyers, and then the speaker turned to the two women and said, I won’t use their real names, but Sally and Jane, “Can you talk to us about what it was like being a working mom?” And I was like, “I know for a fact that those four other men all have children as well. They are working fathers.” And you could see that both women were like, “Oh man, you asked me the question that, of course, I can only be defined by a mother and then I’m an attorney.” Again, without having children of my own, I don’t know that exact perspective.

I just know that so often people in professional settings, they don’t ask me about my cases first very often. They don’t ask me about my cases first or my career or what’s interesting happening at the courthouse, anything like that. They ask me, “When are you going to have kids?”

I mean, I know my husband gets that question every now and then too, but it can’t be nearly as often.

Mary Simon:

Yeah, and it’s fine. The thing that makes it hard to articulate for me is that it’s not an always thing. Sometimes I would rather talk about cute baby clothes and due dates than I would a deposition, but it’s usually when it’s men and me that it’s the most … I’m like, “Ugh, of course we’re going to talk about this instead of the case.” It can sometimes just be annoying. Another hard truth that I was thinking about, but not too intensely, I don’t know if you guys have any thoughts on this or not, but in a growing social media, video marketing, kind of like digital age that we’re in, I can’t remember a time where folks didn’t tell me this if you said you wanted to be a lawyer, but it’s always like be nice to other people because your reputation is the most important thing.

It’s how other people come to know you in the community, it’s how you get business, all this stuff. You have to be really cognizant and aware of how you’re presenting yourself, whether it’s on social media platforms or any online presence that you have, you’re going to subject yourself to different types of scrutiny or comments. So you kind of need to be aware of how to handle that. And I’m not saying that I have all the answers, I definitely don’t. After becoming an attorney, before you post something, there’s just like a little filter that kind of like goes through your head of what this might be perceived as or something.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

My thought on it though is it’s this idea that we unfortunately can never truly be divorced from our job.

And that’s probably true for most industries in some way. You’re not only representing yourself, you’re representing your employer and how people may perceive you in the community. Maybe we have a little bit of a different perspective in that we may present to the community through jury trials. That’s a way that maybe a lot of people don’t have to be concerned about or something that a lot of people don’t have to be concerned about, but it is something that I think about that anything I post online could be, I could be directly judged on it, my employer could be directly judged on it. Frankly, like my intelligence, if I post something too silly, even if it’s a joke or it’s sarcastic, are people going to think I’m an idiot, especially if I’m a girl. And so you just got to be aware of it. And it’s tough because I think people do want to be able to compartmentalize and have, look, I am who I am at work and then I am who I am online or at home or when I’m not at my job, I get to be my own person.

And to an extent that is true, but to an extent that’s also not true. You are kind of always a little bit on.

Elizabeth McNulty:

And I think part of it for me, at least I think social media has kind of loosened up in the past several years. I don’t know if maybe that’s … Politicians use it in kind of an absurd way now. Like everyone

Mary Simon:

Has it

Elizabeth McNulty:

Or something. Yeah. Just in all cap, tweeting in all caps, stuff like that. So I just think that I feel less … I mean-

Mary Simon:

Scrutinized

Elizabeth McNulty:

Or? Yeah. I don’t feel like you have to be super tight about what you post anymore. I don’t post a lot on social media anyway, but that kind of brings me to something that I struggle with is that pressure to always be posting and marketing yourself online, at least with your professional accounts. And I feel like that’s something as a law student or a young lawyer I didn’t necessarily think about how you always need to be marketing yourself to a certain extent. And sometimes that’s easy with where we work or we do things in the community that we enjoy. And it’s just a nice plus that those are marketable. But sometimes I forget that there’s certain aspects of at least my work that I could probably be putting online more, but it’s just like another thing you need to do in your day and it generally comes last for me.

But that’s not something that I would’ve realized is an important part of at least plaintiff’s trial work.

Mary Simon:

What I’m taking away from this conversation is basically you got to have thick skin to not be comparing yourself to other people all the time. You got to make sure you have a supportive environment. If not, you got to create one for yourself. You got to kind of be aware of the context that you’re working in and just generally be cognizant that what you’re doing on a day-to-day basis and how you want to present can have an impact on your work. And at the end of the day too, we love being trial attorneys. And if someone doesn’t want to, that’s okay too. We’d rather, if you don’t want to do it, then don’t. Or try it out and as soon as you’re realizing the bad outweighs the good, make a switch. But with that, I just want to thank you guys for having this conversation.

And I hope that for everyone who’s listening, they were able to take something helpful away from it. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Heals in the Courtroom. Our episodes drop every other Wednesday, and we look forward to talking to you next time.

Announcer:

Thanks.

Heels in the courtroom is brought to you by the Simon Law Firm. At the Simon Law Firm PC, we believe in the power of pooling resources in order to create powerful results. We often lend our trial skills and experience to lawyers around the country to achieve better results for their clients. Our attorneys welcome the opportunity to work with you on your case, offering vast resources, seasoned litigators, and a sterling reputation. You can contact us at 314-241-2929. And if you enjoyed the podcast, feel free to share your thoughts with Liz, Mary, Elizabeth at heelsinthecourtroom.Law. And subscribe today because the best lawyers never stop learning.

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